92 replies to this topic

[Muzza]

Watching the ABC (which, as Robin Miller once quite corretly put, stands for "Always Bad Coverage") pre-Indy 500 show yesterday I learned that Scott Brayton's widow is today Mrs. Robbie Buhl.

Besides Barbro Peterson - that years after Ronnie's death became John Watson's girlfriend - and Mrs. Ralf Schumacher, who was once Heinz-Harald Frentzen's girlfriend, what other driver wives (or fiances, or girlfriends) had love affairs with other drivers? Just a curiosity.

(I am talking about public love affairs, of course... )

[doublea]

I believe that Michael Schumacher married HHF's former girlfriend.

[Richard Jenkins]

Innes' widow, Jean Ireland was with Mike Hawthorn until his untimely death.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
Innes' widow, Jean Ireland was with Mike Hawthorn until his untimely death.

And, between GP drivers, with F2 and FJ driver Steve Ouvaroff

Also, Roy Bloxam's widow, a driver in her own right, later married Mike Salmon

In a reverse situation, Tony Gaze married the widow of Johnny Wakefield, and later the widow of Lex Davison

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
Innes' widow, Jean Ireland was with Mike Hawthorn until his untimely death.

And, between GP drivers, with F2 and FJ driver Steve Ouvaroff

In a reverse situation, Tony Gaze married the widoe of Johnny Wakefield, and later the widow of Lex Davison

[Vitesse2]

Jim Clark's long-time girlfriend Sally Stokes married Ed Swart, but her relationship with Jimmy had ended before his death, I think.

Then there was the whole Ilse Pietsch/Achille Varzi thing ...

And Baby Caracciola, former partner of Louis Chiron ...

[MP1-4]

Somewhat other but interesting link between drivers: Mike Thackwell is David Brabham's brother-in-law as Mike's sister Lisa having married David (don't you know when was their wedding?).

[Buford]

Johnny Parsons and Duane Carter swapped wives by mutual agreement of all 4 parties. Bobby Grim married the wife of a dead competitor, I think his name was Frank Luplo or something like that.

[Megatron]

Slightly OT as far as wives marrying other drivers but isn't Dan Gurney somehow related to Ron Dennis by marriage?

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Muzza
Watching the ABC (which, as Robin Miller once quite corretly put, stands for "Always Bad Coverage") pre-Indy 500 show yesterday I learned that Scott Brayton's widow is today Mrs. Robbie Buhl.

Besides Barbro Peterson - that years after Ronnie's death became John Watson's girlfriend - and Mrs. Ralf Schumacher, who was once Heinz-Harald Frentzen's girlfriend, what other driver wives (or fiances, or girlfriends) had love affairs with other drivers? Just a curiosity.

(I am talking about public love affairs, of course... )

I think the wife most related to racing was Arza Carter who was married to Johnny Parsons and Duane Carter. She is the mother of racing drivers Johnny Parsons jr., Duane "Pancho" Carter jr. and Dana Carter.

Gerrit Stevens

[Jim Thurman]

Buford beat me to the Parsons-Carter deal (which means Duane "Pancho" Carter Jr. and Johnny Parsons Jr. are stepbrothers), but there have been several more in U.S. open wheel racing. So much so, I can't separate fact from fiction.

I'll see what I can turn up.

One racing widow, was married to three different drivers. That might even be who Buford was referring to, Frank Luptow, Bobby Grim and maybe one more - or it might be another one I'm thinking of entirely.

I think there was an example of this in the 1930's. I want to say Joe Russo was the first husband.

[Buford]

Grim's wife had a daughter Susie who I used to pal around with when we were were 9 to 13 age or so. She married Sheldon Kinser who died of cancer. She may have then married another driver. I think I recall reading that. I don't think her mother married a third driver after Grim died, but I may be wrong.

Pardons Jr and Pancho were half brothers I think, not step brothers.

[Hugo Boecker]

Originally posted by Muzza
what other driver wives (or fiances, or girlfriends) had love affairs with other drivers? Just a curiosity.

(I am talking about public love affairs, of course... )

What about Achille Varzi & Ilse Pietsch ?!!

so long

[Twin Window]

Circa 1980 Elio de Angelis travelled to the South American season-start GPs accompanied by a girl called Sylvia.

She returned with Nelson Piquet...

TW

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Buford
Grim's wife had a daughter Susie who I used to pal around with when we were were 9 to 13 age or so. She married Sheldon Kinser who died of cancer. She may have then married another driver. I think I recall reading that. I don't think her mother married a third driver after Grim died, but I may be wrong.

Pardons Jr and Pancho were half brothers I think, not step brothers.

I can confirm this.
Fabulous Fifties: American Championship Racing
caption with a photograph of Duana and Arza Carter.
"Arza, former wife of Johnnie Parsons, had two children, Joan and Johnny Parsons, by first marriage." and
"They had 3 more children, Duane (Pancho), Dana and Tony."

caption on page 147.
"During WWII, Parsons was married to Arza Lawson, had two children - Joan ('42), John Wayne ('44). They divorced and in '47 he married Lila Miller. Daughter Patricia was born to them. Marriage lasted till Parsons' death in '84."

However I cannot confirm that the wives swapped their drivers.

Gerrit Stevens

[Barry Boor]

Slightly OT as far as wives marrying other drivers but isn't Dan Gurney somehow related to Ron Dennis by marriage?

First time I've heard this one!

Dan's wife Evi is German and is the daughter, IIRC, of Huschke von Hanstein, or some other high-up in the Porsche organization for whom Dan drove in 1961-2.

Dan's first wife, Arleo, was, I'm fairly sure, an American lady, so if Ron Dennis is connected with Dan could it be via one of Dan's children from his marriage to Arleo. Only one of the 4 is female - Lindy, IIRC.

Can anyone throw light on this one, please?

[Ray Bell]

Probably confirmation that his first wife was a native...

Dan was born at Port Jefferson, Long Island, New York in 1931 and went to school in Manhassett, New York until 1948. Then his family moved to Riverside when his father, an opera singer, retired to California to grow oranges and Avocado pears. Dan went to college at Riverside and Menlo, near San Francisco, intil 1951, and was married in the same year. Shortly afterwards he went into the Army for two years compulsory service, becoming a gun mechanic in an anti-aircraft battery in Suwon, Korea. The war ended four months after his detachment arrived, so he saw no real action, "fortunately," but stayed in Korea training for a further year.

No doubt he met her at school...

[RRT1963]

Not quite a marriage, but Patrick Tambay and Joann Villeneuve had a child, following Gilles death.
Apparently Jacques in one of his biographies referred to the kid as a "Mec" or "Meck" which isn't a term most North Americans are familiar with.

[Ray Bell]

Peter Brock's teenage sweetheart and first wife moved on to marry Bob Watson during the Rallycross era... when the two of them were often deadly rivals...

Vicky Leslight left Milton Leslight and has been with Garry Rogers ever since.

When Clive Nolan died, widow Marie wasn't alone all that long before teaming up with John French.

Christine Cole was John Leffler's girlfriend for a long time, later spent time with Peter Brock but never formalised anything before moving on to marry Fred Gibson.

In Perth, after many years of bitter acrimony between Gordon Mitchell and Dick Ward, Gordon's wife left him. Which paved the way for Dick's wife to make her way into Gordon's life and they are a very happy couple today.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by RRT1963
Not quite a marriage, but Patrick Tambay and Joann Villeneuve had a child, following Gilles death.
Apparently Jacques in one of his biographies referred to the kid as a "Mec" or "Meck" which isn't a term most North Americans are familiar with.

Did they really?!

Well I'll be bu&&ered. I've never heard about that...

BTW has anyone else heard the same story as I did at the time regarding the 'real' reason why DC split from his then fiancee Heidi a few years back? It involved another Monaco-based UK GP driver of the time, or so the story went...

TW

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Buford
Pardons Jr and Pancho were half brothers I think, not step brothers.

Buford, that's it, you got it right. I have no idea why I typed "step-brothers". They're half brothers.

I didn't know Bobby Grim's wife had been married to Frank Luptow. Makes sense, since they were both around IMCA at the same time and that seems to be a prime reason why they re-marry drivers.

Still haven't had a chance to check the info on the two time racing widow. Nothing under Joe Russo, so I don't think my recollection was right on that one either.

[Mac Lark]

Originally posted by Twin Window


Did they really?!

Well I'll be bu&&ered. I've never heard about that...

TW

Me neither! I assume this is public knowledge?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Mac Lark
Me neither! I assume this is public knowledge?

If it's in one of Jacques' biographies, one would have to think so... though the genetics may not be public...

Actually, this thread has a rider...

Originally posted by the author of the thread
I am talking about public love affairs, of course...

Some seem to have wandered a little way away from that intention...

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Jim Clark's long-time girlfriend Sally Stokes married Ed Swart, but her relationship with Jimmy had ended before his death, I think..."

True.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by RRT1963
Not quite a marriage, but Patrick Tambay and Joann Villeneuve had a child, following Gilles death.
Apparently Jacques in one of his biographies referred to the kid as a "Mec" or "Meck" which isn't a term most North Americans are familiar with.

So considering Jacques and Tambays abilities as drivers this child might be fairly good too. I really cant beleive none of us have heard of this before. Werent Gilles and his wife heading towards estrangement when he was killed?

[xkssFrankOpalka]

I think Louise King was married to Peter Collins, what happened to her after his death?

[longford68]

I seem to recall Bob Stevens hooking up with Mike Burgmanns widow.

[Mickey]

Originally posted by ghinzani
Werent Gilles and his wife heading towards estrangement when he was killed?

I just read on today's Gazzetta dello Sport that a Canadian movie director wants to make a scandalmongering film about the last few days of Gilles' life.

There's a quote by Joann about it: "I have a moral - rather than legal - right to make sure that my family is respected. I heard after his death that I was cheated on. Some wounds stay on, but deep down I know Gilles had always love me."

[fausto]

Originally posted by ghinzani


So considering Jacques and Tambays abilities as drivers this child might be fairly good too....

NoNo, he'd be son of Gilles' wife, not Gilles'...

[Ninja2b]

Maybe a little OT, but isn't Stirling Moss's sister Pat married to Eric Carlsson? (Of saab rally fame)

[ghinzani]

Dieter Questers married to someone who has links with BMW or a German aristocratic famiLY IIRC?

[Doug Nye]

To Alex von Falkenhausen's daughter? Constructor of the AFM competition cars and sometime engineering director of BMW?

DCN

[fausto]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
To Alex von Falkenhausen's daughter? Constructor of the AFM competition cars and sometime engineering director of BMW?

DCN

Yes!

A good way to build up a succesful (and very long) racing career...

;)

[MCS]

Hence his inclusion in the works F2 team then, I guess?

Well, there's a reason for everything as they say...

Mark

[fausto]

Who knows? In my previous post I was "joking", maybe he met her while driving for the BMW team...anyway Quester wasn't a slow driver, and he's still racing fast...

[KJJ]

Originally posted by Ninja2b
Maybe a little OT, but isn't Stirling Moss's sister Pat married to Eric Carlsson? (Of saab rally fame)

Stirling Moss isn't he Pat Moss's brother?

Of course Pat was a great rallyist in her own right and the outright winner of the 1960 Liege rally.

I know this is anathema to the rivet counters but I'm tempted at times to start a thread on the wives of the frontline drivers in motor sport's dangerous era. Trouble is such threads always get hijacked by the nudge-nudgers. I was interested to read recently that the wives of Mike Spence and Tony Maggs were sisters - Lynn and Gayle Condon. Was that them in the charming main photo in this month's Motor Sport feature on Spence? Or perhaps one was Sally Stokes?

[MCS]

Originally posted by fausto
Who knows? In my previous post I was "joking", maybe he met her while driving for the BMW team...anyway Quester wasn't a slow driver, and he's still racing fast...

No, I wasn't suggesting he was slow for one second. But, by the same token, his team mates were Jacky Ickx and Jo Siffert initially...

Mark

[Pils1989]

Mairesse's widow marrying Beurlys.

[356jlp]

Originally posted by KJJ


Or perhaps one was Sally Stokes?

Wow, whatever happened to Sally Stokes?

[D-Type]

Originally posted by 356jlp


Wow, whatever happened to Sally Stokes?

Read posts 6 and 24!

[john medley]

Reggie Tongue married Erika Seaman nee Popp, after Richard Seaman's fatal accident.

[Hugo Boecker]

Originally posted by john medley
Reggie Tongue married Erika Seaman nee Popp, after Richard Seaman's fatal accident.

They were engaged but Erica dicided to go to America were she later married an American but was soon divorced. After the war she went back to Germany and married the brother of her closest girlfriend.

[kris]

Excerpt from this link :


Strange things happen in this world.
Jackie McLaughlin finished 10th in the USAC car at Reading, and Van Johnson finished 4th.
Van Johnson was a regular in the USAC sprints, and Jackie had raced with him on each of his forays into USAC.

Van was killed in a race a few years after 1956, and a few years after that, his widow became Mrs. Jackie McLaughlin. Two or three years after marrying Jackie, McLaughlin was also killed in a racing accident.
A few years after Jackie's death, if you can believe it, she married yet another race driver. He sold the race cars and retired from racing. He's still alive. He adopted Jackie's daughter, and for some reason, she was never told that her real dad was the famous Jackie McLaughlin. She was, at one time, on the US Olympic swimming team.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by longford68
I seem to recall Bob Stevens hooking up with Mike Burgmann's widow.

True...

Indeed, recently I had an e.mail from one of the Burgmann daughters who had found my obituary for him on another forum. They are doing something about a memorial at Bathurst for Mike.

Mike was married twice, it's the second wife, not the mother of the children of whom we speak here. She had been working in the office at the ARDC and they became 'an item' when the Parramatta Club shared their premises with the ARDC... which is all in the obit:

LIFE IS BUT PRESENTATION


WHEN DEATH crosses the path of Motor Racing, we will inevitably review the life that has preceded that tragic moment, that moment when, in the space of two or three heartbeats, we lose one of our fellows.

We can look at it dispassionately and say Mike Burgmann was 39 and had led a life fuller than most. He had four children of his own and took on a further two in his second marriage, had built an empire of sorts as an Accountant with an entrepreneurial flair, and had seen the world as he lived and worked in the USA for two years.

Closer to our hearts, we know that he raced with the assistance of the superb preparation of Bob Stevens, inevitably giving him a better chance than most. He never beat Peter Brock.

We can look that way, but few of us will. We will instead search for his moments of despair and his moments of glory, from his upbringing at Greystanes - the son of a bricklayer - to his final few heartbeats.

If there is a word that covers the man, then it is 'achiever,' and if it were not so overly used, one would say 'quiet.' Pole vault, discus and soccer medals live in frames at his Glenhaven home, legacies of active competition in years highlighted by being Captain of Blacktown Boys High. In soccer he played on with the Wentworthville Waratahs.

Somewhere in those early years he acquired or developed the phrase that would be a guiding hand in his future - "Life Is But Presentation." Never did he say "You can't do that!" and he hated to hear anyone say "We could have done that!" He was a positive man.

He was the man who built the Parramatta Club, making it presentable, dynamic and successful. Then he resigned his Presidency, unwilling to bask in his success, rather seeking new goals.

And it was during his term there that he came in contact with Motor Racing. Ivan Stibbard was to become a close friend as the ARDC negotiated rights for their members after the closing of the Clubrooms at Leichhardt. Most important to Mike was the entry into his life of Gaye Woodford, an employee of the ARDC and to become a part of him for his final five years.

Gaye helped hiim decide to go racing when he needed more in his life, Ivan guided them to Bob Stevens and Bob guided them through the Camaros, the Mazda and into the Commodore.

"It used to defeat me that he had no background knowledge," says Bob, "But he was a brain. He absorbed everything. He could quote back spring rates and bar sizes - they were all just numbers to him."

It was an Escort Mike raced first, that being put aside for a Camaro, which upended itself at Oran Park after breaking a stub axle. Then the second Camaro, which became the Dreamworld car and was co-driven by Tony Longhurst, recommended to Mike by Dick Johnson and spotted as a result by Frank Gardner.

The Camaros died and an RX7 took their place, with some good placings. Strangely, Bob feels Mike was most at home in the Mazda; Gaye says he didn't like it. When Mazdas were out a Commodore seemed logical.

What was Mike looking for as he raced these cars? "He knew his limitations," says Gaye, "he just set out to do as well as he could."

A regular at Amaroo, where he was on the Committee and setting some high goals for the ARDC to achieve with his guidance, he put in the fastest lap ever by a Commodore during 1986. But there was more happening in his team.

Alert to the problems - all of them - of running a successful car, he equipped a pantech with all that was needed. Bob Stevens takes no shortcuts and Mike was prepared to pay his way. And he picked up another young driver and eased him into the car.

The tears of Bathurst having cleared away, Mal Rose remembers Mike's advice - how to dress himself, how to conduct himself, how to feel a part of something important. They were planning for the 'Wellington 500' and Bathurst next year, with Mike grateful for Mal's competitiveness (he qualified the car at Sandown) and responding by going faster to match him.

But during this time there was nothing that was just Mike. Gaye was a part of every decision. They were an 'item,' as Bob puts it. "When we were at the circuit there was us and there was Mike and Gaye, always together."

It was Gaye who convinced him to reduce the size of his business, who feared he would work himself to death. It was Gaye to whom he came after his first lap of Bathurst in the Camaro and said, "I wanna go home!" And again after his first laps of the wet Sandown in the Commodore.

Bit it was Mike who overcame these setbacks and, with Gaye's help, was a force in the field. It was Mike who was frustrated in his attempts to help the ARDC grow. It was Mike who lost his mother two months ago, who pulled six seconds off his his Bathurst time and took pride in hearing Michel Delcourt praise Mal Rose on his first trip to Bathurst. It was Mike and Gaye who wanted to see Mal be Rookie of the Year.

But it was only to his devoted wife Gaye that the flowers came, the hundreds of cards and letters, telegrams and understanding phone calls. Among them many from businessmen who'd succeeded with his help, one from James Hardie, with whom Mike was a central figure in touchy negotiations for Bathurst's future, one from Jon Davision, recalling his own tragedy.

Yes, we could look dispassionately, but we would miss too much. Mike knew the upheaval of a broken marriage, the feeling of success, the adrenalin-pumping exhilaration of 268kmh and the warmth of a true closeness.

Then, in two or three heartbeats, it was over.

RAY BELL

Young Flame Burgmann told me that she and her siblings were very much left out of her father's life and memory after he died. But she was seeking to learn more about his life. They now live in Melbourne.

And, speaking of Melbourne... or Victoria at least... and the theme of this thread...

I notice that Diana Davison and Tony Gaze aren't mentioned. Diana, absolutely the First Lady of Motor Racing to me, was widowed on that lousy day at Sandown Park in 1965. About six or seven weeks later she presented a trophy at Bathurst, making a speech of which anyone would be proud, the perpetual trophy being for the main open wheeler event at Bathurst each year and named after Lex.

In the next year or two she married Tony Gaze, who was an old family friend and fellow racer of Lex's. Today they live in a home they recently built at Ngambie in Victoria.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I notice that Diana Davison and Tony Gaze aren't mentioned.

Well, not since Post 4, anyway
(Though I have no wish to detract from your fine tribute to these people)

[theunions]

Isn't Robby Gordon (if not, then someone else in Nextel Cup) now dating the recently divorced Renee White (formerly Miss Winston and Mrs. Derrike Cope)?

[James Page]

Piers Courage met his future wife Sally when she was going out with Charlie Crichton-Stuart.

[David M. Kane]

Sally Swart was at Road America, Ed Swart was driving a Jan Lammer's Shadow in the HGP race.
They have Jack Russell that is a friend of our Cosworth. They also have several children and, I believe, 4 grandchildren. They both look great!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Well, not since Post 4, anyway
(Though I have no wish to detract from your fine tribute to these people)

Thank you, David, and my apologies...

I thought I'd read every word when I went through the thread yesterday. Clearly I missed a couple.

[Mal9444]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KJJ
[B]

Stirling Moss isn't he Pat Moss's brother?

I had the pleasure of meeting Pat Moss recently, and in a conversation not a million miles away from the theme of this very thread, and commenting upon an allusion to said brother in said context, simply raised an eyebrow, sighed and said whimsically - 'ah yes - Stirling Myth...'

A really charming and fascinating lady, and of course a champion show jumper as well as rally driver.

Yes, she did marry Eric Carlsson. When I asked her did she and Eric team up after they had met and rally together she looked at me as if I were not that bright (how very perceptive of her) and said 'you must be joking! If I go off the road, I want to be hanging on to my own steering wheel...'

I did notice, though, that when they set off home (in a Saab, of course) Eric drove.