211 replies to this topic

[neville mackay]

Reading the fascinating thread on the Lambert-Regazzoni accident at Zandvoort and the FIA's carefully crafted conclusion of where the "blame" lay reminded me of the similar conclusion reached in the wake of the tragic accident involving Ignazio Giunti and Jean-Pierre Beltoise in the 1971 Beunos Aires 1000Km race. IIRC, the conclusion was that the accident was one third the fault of Beltoise (for pushing his Matra across the track in order to get it into the pit lane) one third the responsibility of Giunti (for overtaking Mike Parkes' Ferrari under waved yellow flags) and one third the responsibility of the organisers (for inadequate flag marshalling).

This always struck me as a very convenient and neat conclusion to what was undoubtedly a horrible incident. Everyone played a part but no one was to blame. This may well be a reasonable conclusion to reach in the light of a complex set of circumstances involving split second decisions, but I have always wondered whether the FIA's conclusion was motivated (in both this and perhaps the Lambert case) by the desire to stamp on the idea that participants involved in racing accidents might be open to prosecution under civil or criminal law.

As an aside, I was also struck by the fact that the relatively casual way in which the British motorsports press of the time reported the Beltoise affair, which potentially had serious implications for everyone involved in the sport. Beyond the basic reportage of the accident itself, there was little comment or analysis on what actually happened (perhaps in contrast to the press in Italy and France) I believe that the accident occurred on the entry to the main straight - presumably in the plain sight of thousands - yet I have never ever seen and photographic or diagramatic reportage of the event.

Finally, I should add that I am not trying to open up old wounds which can sometimes be very painful . Nor am I trying to point any finger of blame at one or more individuals. I am simply trying to establish whether - through the lens of history - the established and official version of events was indeed the reasonable conclusion to reach given all the relevant facts.

All comments welcome!

[ensign14]

Like with the Lambert affair, Lou Stanley (whose driver Beltoise was in F1 very soon after) reports extensively on it in 'Behind The Scenes', blaming Giunti. Stanley claims that:

1. there were yellow flags warning drivers;

2. Giunti was lapping faster than when there were no yellows;

3. he was overtaking under yellows when the accident occurred;

4. he had passed Beltoise pushing the Matra twice;

5. another driver (Gilles Rouveyran) had done exactly the same thing and was not DQd, but classified;

6. no attempt was made to stop Beltoise pushing.

This is borne out by Anthony Pritchard's Motor Racing Yearbook for that year, with the crucial difference that Beltoise was pushing his car across the road.

Paddy McNally's column in Autosport for 21.1.71 states that Fangio and Bonnier had made statements absolving Beltoise, while Mike Parkes - whom Giunti was following - blamed the marshals for not stopping Beltoise.

McNally has a slightly different view of the crash, he thought that Beltoise was in the middle of the track, with room either side to be passed, but that Giunti was so close to the slipstream of Mike Parkes that he did not see until it was too late.

Incidentally, Giunti was pulled out of the burning Ferrari by Arturo Merzario, whoof course did the same thing for Niki Lauda some years later. However Giunti was already dead, killed by the impact with the Matra.

From the accounts, the 'three thirds' may be fair enough...Beltoise however should not have been pushing the Matra, as that should have meant DQ, but the race officials were obliged to stop him and not let him carry on regardless, and should have helped to push the car off the track completely...but retrospect is 20-20...

[marhal]

Hello.............



I saw the accident on the Argentine T.V. Today, I can´t remember everything, but I remember that some marshalls approached Beltoise and asked him to stop pushing his car, I agree with the proportions of blaming, 1/3 for each part. The accident was entering to the main straight. But, as far I can remember, Merzario didn´t help Giunti, the flames were so big that was impossible. Giunti didn´t die inmediately, he died a half an hour after the accident..................anyone has photos of Beltoise pushing the car??????, probably we can see the marshalls speaking to him..................

[Paul Newby]

Wasn't there photographs of the Ferrari cartwheeling down the track in the English Car Magazine. I haven't seen them, personally though.

I've read (recent) articles which said this accident did have a major impact on safety standards around the world but can't recall what these measures were. Certainly pushing sick / empty cars was a no-no, but I'm sure that would have been the case at that time anyway.

IIRC this was the racing debut of the 312PB and Giunti was sharing the sole PB with Merzario. There were leading the race at the time coming up to the first pit stop I recall. I believe Giunti's new wife was in the grandstands opposite and witnessed the tragic accident.

As an aside, I've often wondered how good Giunti was. Presumably not as good as Regazzoni, to whom he lost his Ferrari F1 seat to, but deserving of a place in F1. His debut in the 312B at Spa in '70 where he finished 4th was a great start and he really didn't do anything wrong, though Regazzoni wiining the Italian GP probably sealed it - leading the Ferrari Sportscar team was Giunti's fate.

Neville, do you think Giunti's lack of F2 and F3 heroics (his background was Alfa touring cars and sports cars) were a factor in him not making the grade in F1? Or in time would he have made itback to F1, they did have a third 312 B2 for Andretti in '71, IIRC.

I'm also curious as to the inspiration for his Aztec designed helmet. I have my own helmet painted to replicate his absurdley complex design. One day, when I work out how to post images, I will post it in TNF.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by ensign14
... Lou Stanley.../... claims that:
4. he had passed Beltoise pushing the Matra twice;

I have to say that I am disturbed by that point, that I do not recall having given the proper attention ever, and that, if proved accurate, might change my own approach to the understanding of the accident.

Originally posted by marhal
...anyone has photos of Beltoise pushing the car?
probably we can see the marshalls speaking to him...

There was a series of photographs in the Argentine CORSA magazine, that Jose Maria Gonzalez Bevans -that was witnessing the race as a kid aged 9- did scan later on (the blame for the poor quality should be shared between the scanner and the originals, I would say in 60/40) and of which the one showing Beltoise pushing the car does not show any signs of marshalls...

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by neville mackay
...one third the responsibility of Giunti (for overtaking Mike Parkes' Ferrari under waved yellow flags) and one third the responsibility of the organisers (for inadequate flag marshalling).

Is this some kind of black humour on the part of the authorities or am I missing something? I am puzzled. Waved yellow flags being the choosen flag marshalling as per the statement, if that was inadequate flag marshalling which would have been the "adequate"?

Please remember that there are some decissions like the ones that you might be thinking of that are NOT within what a flag marshall is supposed to do. IF the Statement as quoted by neville mackay is accurate (and the blame is not on "marshalling" but on "flag marshalling") will you think that the authorities might have thought that a white flag would have been more efficient as a warning of danger?

Whatever were the reasons for Beltoise pushing the car, I have few doubts that the decision taken by him was a silly one, and hard to understand. One would expect a lot more criteria on him at that stage of his career. I will review on his "Defense de mourir" bio what he says about that, I reckon I have not read it for years now.

My doubt now is whether Giunti was doing an "Alonso" (you know I am refering to Brazil earlier this year, where he had a nasty accident by what looks to me as an excess of enthusiasm - hence a relaxation of common sense) only with much nastier results. That suggestion would only be based on what Lou Stanley is quoted in point 4 above...canot get it out of my mind! If Giunti had already seen Beltoise pushing the car twice in the very previous minutes he should be aware of clear and inminent danger on that area, wouldn't he?

As Neville says, comments?

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
I'm also curious as to the inspiration for his Aztec designed helmet. I have my own helmet painted to replicate his absurdley complex design. One day, when I work out how to post images, I will post it in TNF.

Paul,

Please take a look at this other thread

Felix

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Is this some kind of black humour on the part of the authorities or am I missing something? I am puzzled. Waved yellow flags being the choosen flag marshalling as per the statement, if that was inadequate flag marshalling which would have been the "adequate"?

Please remember that there are some decissions like the ones that you might be thinking of that are NOT within what a flag marshall is supposed to do. IF the Statement as quoted by neville mackay is accurate (and the blame is not on "marshalling" but on "flag marshalling") will you think that the authorities might have thought that a white flag would have been more efficient as a warning of danger?

As Neville says, comments?

Felix, this was an exteremely dangerous situation. A white flag would have been inappropritate in my opinion - for slow moving vehicles/service vehicles. I am a Flag Marshal and to me the track is partially blocked by an "obstacle" in this instance.

Apart from that, the danger to the Driver is paramount. What was going through his head? Especially when he had been passed at racing speeds twice? Unbelievable.

I would love to know if the Marshals had asked for the race to be RED Flagged!! I doubt it, different times. I would have no hesitation in requesting "that coloured flag" (race be stopped) immediately if this happened today.

[Vitesse2]

Regarding the duties of marshals: this is the relevant section from Appendix H of the International Sporting Code from the 1972 Yellow Book:

(a) ... they shall see that any car brought to a stop on their section of road, either through a mechanical failure or by accident, is pushed to the side of the road without causing the restarting of the engine.
(b) They shall enquire about the reason of the stopping of the car and the possible decision of the competitor to withdraw ...

I looked at this some time ago and spent a lot of time trawling through the international regulations, but I couldn't find anything in them which actually prohibited Beltoise from pushing the car. The above paragraphs don't put any responsibility on the marshals to restrain a driver from pushing. But as Beltoise had run out of fuel, does that count as a "mechanical failure"? If not, then is (a) above irrelevant? Could that be why they fudged it and shared the blame out three ways, since the phrasing of the regulations was inadequate?

[Felix Muelas]

275 GTB-4 : that is excatly the kind of comment I wanted to read.

As per my "white flag" suggestion, it was -although not very well expressed, now that I read it twice- intended to be a sophisticated kind of joke, in the line of Zenon's "reduction to absurd" technique. At no moment I was implying that a white flag might have been more appropriate than a waved yellow!

Two more points in your comment that I find very interesting but that I would like to hear your comments on, if you please...:

a) Do I understand correctly if I conclude from your words that individual flag marshalls have (and could and should) the possibility of requesting a RED FLAG from whomever their Head of Flag Marshalls is via a system of communications so that the person that decides on that -the RED FLAG appearing - actually

-Either has first hand information and can take the decision based on his own criteria or

-Either has received a request via whatever communication system is in place from one of his "team members" (flag marshalls) and follows this request?

As an aside, and apart from obviously loudy insulting from the distance a driver that would do what JPB was doing at that precise moment, is "physical force" expected to take place from the Marshalls to avoid that behaviour taken place? I mean, from your experience, where the flag marshalls in Argentina that day EXPECTED to get out there, take JPB out of his attitude (pushing the car) and... (I don't know what would have followed)?

If I make that silly remark, maybe, is because I still fail to understand what the authorities might have meant by the use of the wording ...one third the responsibility of the organisers (for inadequate flag marshalling).

b) I see that you have no doubts that Giunti had already passed that spot twice, with Beltoise pushing the Matra. Not that I doubt it, just that I had never realised that was the case, as I said in an earlier post. Is that the case? Without doubt? Was Giunti supposed to be aware of the danger?

[Vitesse2]

Felix, we posted at the same time, but I think I've answered your point about physical force ...

[ensign14]

"Defense de Mourir" pre-dates this incident.

I think inadequate marshalling, rather than flag marshalling, may have been 1/3 to blame and there may have been an inaccurate report. Unless the FIA was suggesting the marshals should have black flagged JPB. Even that would not make sense.

Autosport quoted Article 16 of the regs re push starting = DQ.

[Ralliart]

Barrie Gills's "Motor Sport Yearbook 1972" reports:
"...on the 37th lap, Beltoise in the Matra, ran out of fuel just short of the pits. The Frenchman began to push his car across the track (despite a regulation prohibiting the pushing of the cars) towards the pits for more fuel. Following closely behind in the slipstream of Parke's Ferrari, Guinti pulled out to overtake, and smashed into the Matra. Guinti, his Ferrari now a ball of fire, lost his life instantly, and the track, covered in wreckage, became a narrow path through which the following cars sped. The race which should have been stopped and re-started, continued amid such confusion."

[Patrick Italiano]

Can we consider that, if Giunti saw JPB twice in preceding laps, this actually stresses the main fault of JPB, in my mind the completely irresponsible attempt to cross the track, pushing his car in an uphill section.

That means that Giunti's anticipation of the situation was obvioulsly to find Beltoise ON THE OTHER SIDE than where he actually found him. I would take this as the most relevant point.

Any driver seeing for first time waved yellow flags and not expecting exacly what's on the track, either a car just pulled aside or, like this year in Brazilian GP, wrecks all around, will be cautious.

Most of them, when they have seen what's on after a first passage, will act according to the nature and the location of the danger. This is not specific to Giunti nor to that very accident. I think that car racing is largely based on the anticipation of what other's are going to do, and expecting other drivers to be predictable is a key point in safety, on the public streets to a certain extent, but undoubtly on a track.

Beltoise should not even have considered doing that., IMHO.

[Vitesse2]

The "article 16" to which ensign14 refers is presumably in the regulations issued by the local organisers - that bears no resemblance to anything relevant in the Yellow Book. As I posted above, I had tried to find a regulation in the general prescriptions which forbade pushing. Searching again, I found this:

Stopping of a car during the race
....
f) Pushing the car along the track or pushing it across the finishing line is not allowed, and will entail immediate exclusion.

That quote is from a section of the Yellow Book called "Decisions made by the CSI and not included in one of the official FIA documents". The date of this decision? October 11-12 1971. In other words, it would appear that this tragic incident led to the ban on pushing being incorporated in International regulations. Before that date, it seems it must have been down to the individual organisers whether or not to ban it. Therefore, in his opinion, Beltoise was probably in the right, as the FIA regs said nothing against pushing.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
...it would appear that this tragic incident led to the ban on pushing being incorporated in International regulations.

Amazing :

Originally posted by Vitesse2
...Before that date, it seems it must have been down to the individual organisers whether or not to ban it.

Even more amazing, but I wonder if never in the past had a dicusion taken place at official level about the risky nature of the pushing of the cars on the track...or whether the organizers that were against it could show evidence of the reasons why to the other organisers...Strange world

Thanks for looking and for finding, Richard ;)

Felix

[Arturo Pereira]

Just a couple of points about this accident.

The picture Felix posted clearly illustrates one point that should be clear to the ones that know this track and that I think is very important to have a complete picture of the scene.
This accident took place on an uphill section, left hander turn, just at the exit of the short hairpin (right hander). When JPB's car was at the point showed in Felix's picture, it could not be seen from the apex of this hairpin and so it was almost impossible for Giunti to anticipate that a car would be in that place being pushed.

This was the exit of the hairpin in a 1970 race


JPB car should be well to the right of this position and uphill.


This next picture was taken last year from onboard a Toyota Land Cruiser, where I was much higher than should have been Giunti from the cockpit of his Ferrari. It was impossible to see JPB's car from this point. The track was 'moved' left, closer to the grandstands, in the 90s.




AFAIK, when the accident happen, there was a lot of traffic coming in and out of the pits because of refuelling.

IMHO, JPB was the main responsible for the accident because he pushed his car OVER the main racing line through that turn, and he should have known that, once his car reached that position, there was no place to go for the other drivers using the usual race line. Notice that a single car could not pass between JPB's car and the left border of the track. His behaviour was criminal imho. JPB had raced several times at Buenos Aires, he was not a rookie but an experienced F1/F2/Sports Cars ' driver and he is very fortunate to be alive after that stupid & criminal action.

Arturo

[RSNS]

I remember that horrible accident very well - Giunti was on Parkes' tail (I'm not sure it was him, but I think it was a Ferrari 512) and sliped to the inside (left) to overtake him. He instantly crashed against Beltoise - who was clearly horrified.

At the time, most people were furious with Beltoise, because they just had to find an escape goat for the death of a very promising driver (he was level with Rodriguez at Monza's 1000Km in 1970).

But as far as I remember, well informed people said Beltoise was entitled to do what he was doing - as a matter of fact, about a decade before it was common practice - Moss and Brabham spring to mind.

I was mad at Beltoise as everybody else. But I was about 12. Now I seriously question Giunti's wisdom to overtake at a blind spot, where he knew Beltoise was bound to be and in spite of yellow flags.

I was a great supporter of Giunti, but I really think he commited a serious judgement error.

Even so, I think Beltoise was quite reckless.

..

[Arturo Pereira]

This was that turn ... picture taken from the pits' terrace.

http://forum.racesim...=&postid=914214

[Ralliart]

In the Barrie Gill book I quoted from, there is a photo of Beltoise pushing his car. If I knew how to post it...

[Schummy]

When I read about it in the magazine "Autopista" the first thing I thought (and even now I think) is the huge risk Beltoise took. He could easily be "gorishly" destroyed by a direct impact, even in a relatively minor car impact.

I don't remember reading about Giunti passing Beltoise before the fatal accident. If I had known it I think it had changed my view about that sad crash. Thanks to bring here more details about a piece of motorsport history.

[JtP]

I believe that pushing the car was still legal at that time, if it was not allowed it had just been made so.

Although Giunti had passed Beltoise twice, probably under waved yellows. Beltoise was on the opposite side of the track to the pits, but at the side of the track. Possibly Giunti assumed Beltoise was still at the side of the track and had not allowed for him pushing the car across the track to the pits. This being the 3rd time of passing the incident Giunti would have expected stationary yellows, but as the situation had changed from the previous lap, they were probably still being waved.

Pushing was certainly banned after the accident, even at club level. Time keepers not recording pushed laps. Mansell should have been dsq at Dallas in 84, but for some reason was not.

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by JtP

Although Giunti had passed Beltoise twice, probably under waved yellows. Beltoise was on the opposite side of the track to the pits, but at the side of the track. Possibly Giunti assumed Beltoise was still at the side of the track and had not allowed for him pushing the car across the track to the pits. This being the 3rd time of passing the incident Giunti would have expected stationary yellows, but as the situation had changed from the previous lap, they were probably still being waved.

No, Beltoise start pushing his car when it stopped close to the right side of the track. He jumped down and started pushing it cutting the turn and over the usual the race line of that turn. That is why he is showed in Felix' s picture close to the left side. By the time this picture was taken, he had been pushing his car for around 100/150mts.
Giunti could have expected JPB's car could have been moving close to the right side, NEVER cutting the race line after the apex of that turn, which btw was an almost blind turn that could be taken flat out in 4th gear.

Arturo

[fines]

Originally posted by JtP
Pushing was certainly banned after the accident, even at club level. Time keepers not recording pushed laps. Mansell should have been dsq at Dallas in 84, but for some reason was not.

Immaterial, since he failed to complete the lap anyway.

This was a sad accident, but in many ways it just was the way things were done. Of course, it was stupid to push a car across the track, but in the heat of the moment a racer would do anything to continue, and besides, it had always been done before. Criminal action? Certainly not!

As for Giunti failing to obey the yellow flags, maybe the marshalls stopped waving them and just held them stationary? Anyway, to me it seems reasonable for the blame to be dished out equally...

[Jim Thurman]

After a long commentary I wrote in the "Speeds Ultimate Price" thread, thought I'd continue in the same vein...

I still remember seeing a fairly lengthy video of the incident shown on a Los Angeles newscast that evening.

Obviously, it's been many years, but as I recall, the footage showed flags being waved earlier, and IIRC, marshals trying to signal Beltoise or assist him before he got to the final corner. I've often wondered if the distraction of having to deal with Beltoise led to any marshalling errors. The footage showed Beltoise pushing the car back and forth across the track, cutting corners as it were. This left the impression that Beltoise pushed it some distance (at least the last couple of corners). In that case Giunti could not be faulted for not knowing where Beltoise was (if it had changed repeatedly). And then there's the case of the flags at the final corner. Were they present?

The person that wrote of Giunti being unsighted by the other car (Parkes?)...that was spot on. Giunti was right behind and the car in front darted to avoid. I don't know that Giunti was actually trying to overtake or not. Regardless, he was screened until it was too late to react. If there were flags, Giunti was so close to the car in front that he might not have even seen them.

I'm with fines on this one, there was plenty of blame to go around.


Jim Thurman

[JtP]

Re Dallas 84, Mansell was credited with 6th place and the point. Even though pushing the car should have resulted in dsq. Why I don't know, but judging from the organisation of the whole weekend it is not surprising.

[fines]

Originally posted by JtP
Re Dallas 84, Mansell was credited with 6th place and the point. Even though pushing the car should have resulted in dsq. Why I don't know, but judging from the organisation of the whole weekend it is not surprising.

To reiterate, Mansell was a "DNF" on the last lap, whether he stopped short of the finish line, or was disqualified after pushing over (I don't really recall, although I feel pretty sure he didn't complete the lap) is totally immaterial. Since only five cars finished that day, Mansell was, of course, classified sixth.

[eldougo]

Neville Mackay Quote.

plain sight of thousands - yet I have never ever seen and photographic or diagramatic reportage of the event.

________________________________

I wonder why there is a lack of photograph evidence surely there where lots of
professional photographers around to get a good shot. ,an why the lack of reporting in the
UK press.??

[Felix Muelas]

eldougo: I am not sure of what you mean.
There are both photographs and diagrams and although I am not qualified to comment on whether those where adequately reported in the UK press at the time the materials do exist. Maybe Neville has not seen them, but they exist. On the photographs, I just thought posting a couple of pictures with a Ferrari in flames and a driver trapped inside would add nothing to the theme, and they might even distract the attention. That is why I didn't post them.

That it happened "in the sight of thousands" is pretty obvious -just see the picture that I posted above-. You might be right, there were a lot of people with a camera near that day, but it is also true that the smoke and havoc would not specially be helping the taking of photographs.

Very much as in Le Mans 1955, I guess. A tragedy in front of thousands and quite bad coverage as far as images are concerned.

By the way, Arturo: thanks for the pictures, that DO illustrate the point...

[byrkus]

I remember there was a photo of burning Ferrari in Avto magazine in 1971. And that picture was HORRIFYING! It looked sur-real, like a black-and-white negative - what should be light, was dark, and what should be dark, was light... Terrible pic...

[BorderReiver]

This may seem like an obvious question, but as someone who has never seen the photo's or footage of this incident, I was wondering, how on earth did Beltoise get away with this? Where exactly was he when the collision took place? He can't have been still pushing the Matra surely. . . .

[Felix Muelas]

Obvious might be, but very good one.

At some point he HAS to have realised that an impact was becoming more likely by the second -or maybe he just got tired of pushing- . I don't know.

In this picture immediately after the shunt, we are supposed to see Beltoise on the left of the picture, under those roofs, walking / running away (probably in disbelief)

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Obvious might be, but very good one.

At some point he HAS to have realised that an impact was becoming more likely by the second -or maybe he just got tired of pushing- . I don't know.

In this picture immediately after the shunt, we are supposed to see Beltoise on the left of the picture, under those roofs, walking / running away (probably in disbelief)

Thank you for this picture Felix. It illustrates very well the final part of the accident. Giunti's Ferrari impacted JPB's Matra with its front right side, which confirms that the Matra was almost on the race line. I think that Parke's Ferrari passed JPB's Matra using the left side of the track (usual race line there) and Giunti did not had enough time to avoid the crash. He did not brake (as far as I can remember he had no time for this) and the impact was at full speed. For what I can recall, JPB moved to the rear right of his car when he heard other cars coming and he suffered no injures. JPB's license was banned for 6 months after this incident.

Blaming Giunti for this accident is just like blaming a victim because he was in the way of the bullit. JPB's stupid behaviour was the trigger for this incident. Maybe the marshalls could have moved to where the Matra was and helped JPB to remove that car, but anybody could imagine what could have happened if there would have been 4/5 marshalls pushing JPB's Matra when Giunti impacted there ??

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira
...Blaming Giunti for this accident is just like blaming a victim because he was in the way of the bullit...

Bueno, not EXACTLY, Arturo!

Overall, because it looks like by then Ignazio should have been aware of a danger, in the form of a huge blue car blocking the road...

Mind you, I did not remember having been aware of the fact that has been pointed out in this thread, that is that Giunti actually had lapped twice in that spot in the previous 3/4 minutes...

I have been trying to pass onto you the sensation that I have now, namely being that, when analyzed, none of the actions of the parties involved seems to make any sense...Obviously the combination of all those was to produce a tragedy.

[Vitesse2]

Arturo - if you check the rules I posted above, you'll see that by implication, they forbid the marshals from pushing the car, other than to get it to the side of the road where it had stopped. When pushing was legal (and, as demonstrated above, it still was in this case), drivers often used to wave marshals away for fear of disqualification for receiving outside assistance - I'd guess that Beltoise refused help for that very reason.

[Racer.Demon]

I think this is a case of too much blame for one incident, with "heat of the moment" and typical early-seventies safety consciousness equally responsible. Today one would call this amateurism.

Makes me think of Zandvoort '73 - now there's an incident that would require huge amounts of blame to go around when measured with today's standards. Yet it went by like nothing happened - sign of the times.

[RSNS]

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira


Thank you for this picture Felix. It illustrates very well the final part of the accident. Giunti's Ferrari impacted JPB's Matra with its front right side, which confirms that the Matra was almost on the race line. I think that Parke's Ferrari passed JPB's Matra using the left side of the track (usual race line there) and Giunti did not had enough time to avoid the crash. He did not brake (as far as I can remember he had no time for this) and the impact was at full speed. For what I can recall, JPB moved to the rear right of his car when he heard other cars coming and he suffered no injures. JPB's license was banned for 6 months after this incident.

Blaming Giunti for this accident is just like blaming a victim because he was in the way of the bullit. JPB's stupid behaviour was the trigger for this incident. Maybe the marshalls could have moved to where the Matra was and helped JPB to remove that car, but anybody could imagine what could have happened if there would have been 4/5 marshalls pushing JPB's Matra when Giunti impacted there ??

I have a clear picture of the accident in my head – the images run on every channel more than once. Even so, I might be quite wrong; memory does play tricks on us.

This is what I remember:

1) The cameras were set on Beltoise, pushing the car;
2) I don’t quite remember how Beltoise got away from the rear of the car. All I remember is that he took to the left side of the road; because he saw the two cars, or just because he heard them I don’t know;
3) Then, two cars approached the Matra at full speed. The first one seemed to take the normal line, taking the right part of the track;
4) Upon this, it seemed to me that Giunti saw his overtaking chance and went for it: he dived for the gap (left) and immediately hit the Matra; I may be quite wrong here – it’s just the impression of a 12 year old boy.
5) When the crash happened, or just before it, Beltoise sprang in the air – I think in despair – and took his hands to the sides of his head (the ‘Oh my God!!!’ gesture)

As I remember it, the two cars just became one big ball of fire. A horrible sight, really, one of the most impressive accidents I have witnessed.

If someone has a copy of the footage, please tell me if I am correct. Also, please don’t post it. It really is horrible.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Makes me think of Zandvoort '73 - now there's an incident that would require huge amounts of blame to go around when measured with today's standards. Yet it went by like nothing happened - sign of the times.

I won't say it went by like nothing happened. It left many, many people disgusted (including me).

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by scheivlak
I won't say it went by like nothing happened. It left many, many people disgusted (including me).

Yes, of course, but what happened beyond the disgust and the outrage? How was it acted upon by the authorities? There was nothing like the backlash that Nürburgring '76 eventually caused - I'd say that was a watershed moment in safety.

But let's not drag this off-topic ;)

[neville mackay]

Having been away for a couple of days it is both fascinating and rewarding to see the informed and thoughtful way in which this discussion has developed. A big thank you to everyone who has taken the time and effort to help try to clarify a sad but important event in motor sports history.
To my mind, the discussion has illustrated not only the difficulties faced by the historian in unravelling complex events of long ago but also the wonderful opportunity that TNF offers to gather thoughts, opinions and evidence from all over the world.

On reviewing the views expresed in the thread, I think that it is dificult to come to firm conclusions given the absence of three vital pieces of evidence - the FIA report into the incident, the first hand accounts of those who witnessed it, and the complete photographic record of the build up to the fatal collision. But I do think that we have gone some way towards piecing together the outline of the events, and on the back of that I feel that some further points are worth making:

1. we do not know whether the flag marshall's at the hairpin had withdrawn their yellow flags immediately prior to the accident. It is possible that they had done so, having seen Beltoise push the car for 150 metres up the track, disappear from view, and thus conclude that he was safely parked at the side of the track. In these circumstances Giunti might have entered the hairpin, seen that the flags had been withdrawn, and concluded that the track was clear.

2. we must also ask whether the claim that Giunti was overtaking Parkes is valid. It is surely possible that Parkes saw the Matra in the track, jinked left and instinctively slowed down. An unsighted Giunti would therefore appear to have "overtaken" him without actually consciously planning to do so.

3. It is interesting to consider what a "reasonable expectation" of the events might be as they unfolded. Could Giunti have reasonably expected Beltiose's vehicle to be in the midle of the track? Was Beltoise's decision to push the car across the track reasonable given the rules and conventions of the time? Was the behaviour of the marshalls reasonable?

4. If Beltoise had also been killed, would the FIA have reached the same conclusion, or would they perhaps have been tempted to pin more (or less) of the blame on him?

There are no absolute answers to these questions - they all involve matters of judgement. This is what makes the case so interesting. It is posible that some of the photographic evidence to which Felix and others have referred would shed more light on the case. I personally have no objection to seeing those images - every picture tells a story - but I respect their right not to do so if they feel that to be inappropriate.

At the end of the day we are all entitled to our views . My own conclusion - for what it is worth - was that Giunti was the unfortunate victim in more ways than one. The world lost a very fine driver driver on that January afternoon in 1971, and whatever your own views and opions are, let us pause for a moment and reflect on his memory.

Neville Mackay

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Arturo - if you check the rules I posted above, you'll see that by implication, they forbid the marshals from pushing the car, other than to get it to the side of the road where it had stopped. When pushing was legal (and, as demonstrated above, it still was in this case), drivers often used to wave marshals away for fear of disqualification for receiving outside assistance - I'd guess that Beltoise refused help for that very reason.

You are right

[Pedro 917]

From Louis Stanley's "Behind The Scenes" :

The Beltoise affair

The tragic accident that caused the death of Ignazio Giunti in Buenos Aires left in its train a series of legal and political complications. After the crash Jean﷓Pierre Beltoise was arrested and charged with negligent homicide. Release was granted with a bail of £3,125 and the requirement that the Frenchman should present himself for trial in the Argentine within two months. If proven the verdict under Argentinian law carried a sentence of two years' imprisonment.
That in itself would have been severe punishment, but Beltoise arrived home to find further troubles awaiting in Paris. A move stemming from Italy was pressing for his life suspension from motor﷓racing. Similar pressure was being applied by the French authorities, who favoured a specified term of suspension, but appeared to be reluctant to take action themselves. They asked Beltoise to surrender his licence voluntarily and to suspend himself from all forms of racing until the case was heard in the Argentine, a gesture that would have carried with it implications that might have had serious consequences. It would have been an admission of guilt, which would naturally have been noted by the Argentinian court. If the Italian proposal had been put into effect and life suspension pronounced, the judge would have had little alternative but to pronounce sentence on a man already found guilty. As it was, the processes of law were held in abeyance until the findings of those who controlled the sport were known. In short, Jean﷓Pierre Beltoise was exposed to a double sentence, both in excess of what his error deserved.
I was not present at the race, but I was invited by Beltoise and Matra to go to Paris to study the film taken by French television, which depicted the entire accident in the greatest detail, and to piece together all the incidents leading up to the crash and afterwards. The following points emerged:

1. When Beltoise ran out of fuel, the car was stopped slightly centre right of the track, an obvious hazard to other cars.
2. Beltoise could have left the car. Instead at considerable personal risk he tried to push it to the right side of the track. At that point the gradient was too steep and he was therefore obliged to move across to the left side This he did without incident. (I might comment here that had the car suffered mechanical failure or been upside down, it would have remained there as a hazard which the other cars would have had to anticipate.)
3. Once on the left side Beltoise was at fault. Instead of parking the car of the circuit, he continued to push it along the track.
4. The rest of the drivers were aware of what he was doing. In the two laps preceding the accident, cars had gone past safely 44 times.
5. Yellow flags were in evidence well before cars reached Beltoise. These meant 'drive with great care, imminent danger, and no overtaking'.
6. At the point where the accident occurred, there was ample room for several cars to pass Beltoise on the right and adequate room on the left.
7. Beltoise had stated that it was his intention to reach the pits to refuel, which at some stage would have meant crossing the track to the right, but the film showed clearly that this had not been attempted. The car was pointing straight, There was no suggestion of any turn to the right.
8. Oncoming cars had come out of a slow hairpin. The distance from the hairpin to the point of the accident was 200 yards.
9. Lap charts and official lap times showed that instead of slowing down, Giunti increased his speed. On the first lap after the yellow flags went out his time was 1: 54.23. The next time round he clocked 1: 52.9 fractionally slower than his lap record.
10. The car immediately before the crash went past on the left.
11. Parkes and Giunti came next. The Englishman went past Beltoise's car on the left. Giunti was tucked in behind, pulling out slightly to the right as if preparing to overtake. That move produced the tragedy. The Ferrari clipped the Matra and burst into flames.

Certain points had to be made. It was true the marshals showed the yellow flags, but none made any attempt to get the car off the track. No other official sought to prevent Beltoise from pushing the Matra. Official lap times showed that drivers did not correctly observe the yellow flag warning. Another driver, Rouveyran, pushed his car back to the pits from a point slightly ahead of the crash point. That driver was not disqualified, in fact he was classified.
There was no doubt that Beltoise broke the ruling regarding pushing a car. It was a technical infringement, but the full blame for the accident should not, in my opinion, have been placed solely on his shoulders. There were other contributory factors. Stretch the point to absurdity and the Matra team manager was as much to blame for sending the car out with insufficient fuel.
To suggest that Beltoise's error of judgement justified a term of imprisonment was unthinkable. Likewise the Italian call for life suspension was unrealistic. Both sentences overlooked the very nature of the sport. It is potentially lethal, whatever safeguards are taken and the element of danger is always present. Those who participate know the risks and are prepared to take them. Had Beltoise been singled out for this type of punishment it would have been manifestly unjust. Virtually every driver on a grid has at some time been guilty of an act that in the light of the Beltoise allegations would justify suspension. I can think of many blatant instances of questionable tactics, driving that could only be ranked as dangerous, deliberate attempts to baulk that forced a car off the track, At least one of these incidents has proved tragic. These were mistakes made by men at the wheel, not technical infringements of the rules. The stewards at that Argentine race should have held an immediate enquiry. According to the rules the organising club has the authority to pass judgement on the spot and the driver has 48 hours in which to lodge an appeal. Instead, we had the unseemly spectacle of Italians clamouring for a vicious sentence, even attempting to get papal censure; the French toying with their penalties and putting the onus on the driver; the Argentinian club remaining silent; while the Argentine law courts waited to pass judgement. The Grand Prix Drivers' Association was naturally very concerned about the whole matter, but were surprisingly reluctant to come to the Frenchman's aid. In South Africa a feeble protest was made that did nothing to ease the tension and ignored the fact that every driver was affected by the case. The implications were far reaching. It could be that the legal hazards of racing in Italy and the Argentine might be so potentially dangerous for drivers and entrants that these countries could disappear from the fixture list.
To my mind Jean-Pierre Beltoise had punishment enough. To know that indirectly he had been instrumental in causing the death of one of his friends was a nightmare that has never left him. Ignazio Giunti was one of the most charming men the sport has known. Of one thing I was certain. Knowing full well the ever﷓present possibility of becoming involved in an accident, he, like every other racing driver, would never have expected the other fellow involved to be suspended for life or imprisoned. Success and tragedy go hand﷓in﷓hand. Both are part of the motor﷓racing scene.
At a press conference in London, I stressed the importance of a situation that involved all entrants and drivers. It is a grey area that still exists. No one can be completely sure that should their car or driver become involved in an accident, there is no foolproof guarantee that they will not be brought to trial under the law of the land in which they were racing, even though no spectators were involved and the accident took place on private ground. In the Beltoise case it was essential that the C. S. I. should take two steps. First, take an active part in the defence of Beltoise should he have to stand trial in the Argentine. So strongly did I feel that I offered to attend with the Frenchman to support his case. Secondly, the C.S.I. should reach a definitive understanding in all countries where motor﷓racing takes place, that racing accidents should be a matter for motor﷓racing's own disciplinary body and not be subject to legal action. There are assurances that such is now the case, but it would be rash to imagine Italians, Brazilians and Argentinians reacting so rationally in such a situation.
In the case of Jean-Pierre Beltoise the heat was taken out of the controversy and commonsense prevailed. He was given assurances that he could race again in the Argentine. By that time the Frenchman had joined B.R.M., but such was my scepticism of Argentinian justice that I withdrew him from the Argentinian Grand Prix. The following statement was issued to the press: 'This decision was made with great reluctance after I received representations from the international governing body of the sport - the C. S. I.- and took advice from the Foreign Office and the British Embassy in Buenos Aires'. In his place I substituted Peter Gethin for the one race.
The Beltoise affair avoided unfair penalising, but it served to show that in similar circumstances no one can be certain of support. Self-interest rules the heart and justice can get lost.

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas


Bueno, not EXACTLY, Arturo!

Overall, because it looks like by then Ignazio should have been aware of a danger, in the form of a huge blue car blocking the road...

Mind you, I did not remember having been aware of the fact that has been pointed out in this thread, that is that Giunti actually had lapped twice in that spot in the previous 3/4 minutes...

I have been trying to pass onto you the sensation that I have now, namely being that, when analyzed, none of the actions of the parties involved seems to make any sense...Obviously the combination of all those was to produce a tragedy.

THe Pole position was taken by Jo Siffert driving a Porsche 917K with 1m51.530s, so it is quite reasonable to asume Giunti lapped that spot 2/3 times, depending on how fast JPB could push his car.

The section of the track where this incident took place was the #26, according with a map I found some time ago in the library of the Argentine Automovil Club (A.C.A.). Its radius was 254,40mts and the curvature (degrees) 49. The length of the curvature of this turn was 217.57mts, starting at the end of section 25 (the 180 degrees turn named as Horquilla). It would be very interesting to know how fast could have JPB pushed his car so we could estimate how much time he lasted to push his car around 150/180mts.

[Pedro 917]

Originally posted by Paul Newby

I'm also curious as to the inspiration for his Aztec designed helmet. I have my own helmet painted to replicate his absurdley complex design. One day, when I work out how to post images, I will post it in TNF.

In the summer of 1970, my friend bought a full-face helmet and wanted it to be painted in Giunti's design. As my brother and I were quite good in handling a paintbrush, we decided to give it a go. As the only helmet available at the time was orange, we just changed the color scheme. It was a difficult job but we succeeded. It took us a lot of time but considering our age (I was 15 and my brother 16) we had reason to be proud of ourselves.
Here's probably the only picture left of the helmet, taken during the summer of 1970 at Zolder while my friend Luc De Cock had one of his sessions at the Andre Pilette's Racing School. Luc went on to drive Formula Vee and Super Vee (Belgian Champion in 1978), Formula Ford and also some touring car races (24h Francorchamps 1978 with Ickx in a VW Scirocco of the Belgian VW Club).



and here's a painting my brother made last year.......

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by neville mackay
...................
1. we do not know whether the flag marshall's at the hairpin had withdrawn their yellow flags immediately prior to the accident. It is possible that they had done so, having seen Beltoise push the car for 150 metres up the track, disappear from view, and thus conclude that he was safely parked at the side of the track. In these circumstances Giunti might have entered the hairpin, seen that the flags had been withdrawn, and concluded that the track was clear.

2. we must also ask whether the claim that Giunti was overtaking Parkes is valid. It is surely possible that Parkes saw the Matra in the track, jinked left and instinctively slowed down. An unsighted Giunti would therefore appear to have "overtaken" him without actually consciously planning to do so.

3. It is interesting to consider what a "reasonable expectation" of the events might be as they unfolded. Could Giunti have reasonably expected Beltiose's vehicle to be in the midle of the track? Was Beltoise's decision to push the car across the track reasonable given the rules and conventions of the time? Was the behaviour of the marshalls reasonable?

4. If Beltoise had also been killed, would the FIA have reached the same conclusion, or would they perhaps have been tempted to pin more (or less) of the blame on him?

............................
Neville Mackay

1. JPB was pushing his car pointing directly to the pits. This is what Felix's picture shows. I will try to get more pictures by the next weekend.

2. many people mentioned that Giunti could have been overtaking Parkes when the accident happened. IMHO this makes no sense unless Parkes would have showed Giunti that he was going to pit. I know this track very well and nobody could expect an overtaking move then unless the car ahead was in trouble, which was not the case with Parke's car. THe usual place to try a pass would be turn one, near 700 meters ahead of the place where the accident took place.

[neville mackay]

Arturo's second point - coming from someone with direct knowledge of the track - tends to support the hypothsis that Giunti was not overtaking Parkes, but that Parkes suddenly slowed and that Giunti, in order to avoid him, pulled out from his slipstream and passed threby creating the impression of overtaking.

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
From Louis Stanley's "Behind The Scenes" :

The Beltoise affair
..................................
The following points emerged:

1. When Beltoise ran out of fuel, the car was stopped slightly centre right of the track, an obvious hazard to other cars.
2. Beltoise could have left the car. Instead at considerable personal risk he tried to push it to the right side of the track. At that point the gradient was too steep and he was therefore obliged to move across to the left side This he did without incident. (I might comment here that had the car suffered mechanical failure or been upside down, it would have remained there as a hazard which the other cars would have had to anticipate.)
3. Once on the left side Beltoise was at fault. Instead of parking the car of the circuit, he continued to push it along the track.
4. The rest of the drivers were aware of what he was doing. In the two laps preceding the accident, cars had gone past safely 44 times.
5. Yellow flags were in evidence well before cars reached Beltoise. These meant 'drive with great care, imminent danger, and no overtaking'.
6. At the point where the accident occurred, there was ample room for several cars to pass Beltoise on the right and adequate room on the left.
7. Beltoise had stated that it was his intention to reach the pits to refuel, which at some stage would have meant crossing the track to the right, but the film showed clearly that this had not been attempted. The car was pointing straight, There was no suggestion of any turn to the right.
8. Oncoming cars had come out of a slow hairpin. The distance from the hairpin to the point of the accident was 200 yards.
9. Lap charts and official lap times showed that instead of slowing down, Giunti increased his speed. On the first lap after the yellow flags went out his time was 1: 54.23. The next time round he clocked 1: 52.9 fractionally slower than his lap record.
10. The car immediately before the crash went past on the left.
11. Parkes and Giunti came next. The Englishman went past Beltoise's car on the left. Giunti was tucked in behind, pulling out slightly to the right as if preparing to overtake. That move produced the tragedy. The Ferrari clipped the Matra and burst into flames.

........................................

1. right. JPB's car stopped close to the right side of the track where it was an obvious hazard to other cars

2. Beltoise SHOULD have left the car. It is not true that the gradient of the track at that point was too steep as to force JPB to push the car to the left, thus over the usual race line. If it was obvious that the car was a hazard had remained stopped, it should have been much more obvious it was a much bigger hazard becoming a moving target.

3. Beltoise never reached the left side of the track. As can be seen in Felix's picture, he was pushing the car following a straight line that finished in the pits. He never tried to pushed the car to the left but right into the pits, and btw using the shortest line ... a straight line.
He continued to push the car NOT because he was at fault, but because he was wanting to reach the pits to get fuel.

4. the author does not seem to know the place of accident very well. Even if the other drivers could have been aware of JPB's moving target, the turn was/is still a blind turn and so not a single driver could have seen Beltoise from the exit of the hairpin .... much less with another car close ahead (Parkes' car).

5. right, but Beltoise was moving and so the the references of the latest laps were not useful in the next ones.

6. At that point it would have been stupid to make a move TO THE RIGHT .... it could have ended with a car crashing into the pits. And it was quite little room to pass Beltoise to the left .... the front of Giunti's car showed the impact was clearly at its right side. Maybe Giuntin changed his line half a meter and this was enough to meet JPB's Matra rear. Though I think that the one who changed his line was Parkes.

7. yes, Beltoise car was pointing straight ... to the pits..

8. right

9. This should not be strange considering the track was less crowded. Many cars were in the pits refuelling by that time, except Beltoise.

10. Lucky Parkes he could see the danger.

11. Parkes passed JPB;s Matra using the only safe place ... the left side. IMHO, It was not Giunti who moved his car to the right but it was that Parkes moved his car to the left when he noticed the inminent danger. Giunti did not have this chance and so, when Parkes moved to the left, Giunti faced the rear of the Matra and had no time to react.

It is quite clear that I do not agree with Mr Stanley's conclusions, even if I do not mean JPB was acting on purpose. It was clear for me that he was pushing his car to the pits and that, at a certain point, he decided to follow the shortest line. As simple as that. What was obvious is that he did not think in the potential consequences of his irresponsible action.

[Racer.Demon]

Another point which hasn't been touched: why did Beltoise leave his car in the middle of the track? If he hadn't left it and was continuing to push it towards the pits, he would have been sandwiched and killed. So there must have been a reason for him to get away.

Yet how can this reason be a Ferrari - or two Ferraris - that have passed him on two previous occasions? What reason could he have to "sense" that this time it would be wiser to get away from his car? And if he didn't have this supernatural sense and stayed with his car until the very end - how could he have been quick enough to judge whether Giunti would pull out from behind Parkes and jump away? Or, in case it was Parkes who jinxed to the side, how could he have been quick enough to spot the second Ferrari and get out?

The picture of the impact shows JPB at some eight or ten yards away - this cannot be the result of a split-second decision to bail out of a tight spot. That would have been a superhuman effort.

Since we can't accept supernatural powers and strengths on the part of JPB as a viable explanation, he must have left his car abandoned on the track some time before the impact.

This would put the blame squarely at JPB's feet. And how could the car be standing still on that slope? It may even have started rolling back - to the sudden amazement of Parkes, forcing him to jinx out to the left.

Again I am reminded of Zandvoort '73, the events of which I am studying for a purpose which is irrelevant to this issue. Here, on the basis of photographs and (supposed eye-witness) reports I had been given quite the wrong impression of what actually happened. I only found out when I finally had the opportunity to see the original footage of a large part of Williamson's accident and its horrible aftermath. Words (especially those acting to summarize events) and pictures can be hugely misleading. I believe that unless we gain access to pure, uncut footage of the Buenos Aires '71 events it will be impossible to determine what really happened - and who is to blame.

[bschenker]

I think to remember Beltoise was pushing his Matra on the left side of the road. Pushing the car on the rear side in front of a right hand corner the Matra was finished away from the board of the road. According this situation Beltoise was going on the right side of his car , i think for a direction correction (normally this cars was right side driven), on this moment Giunti hit the backside from the Matra.

[Racer.Demon]

Possibly Beat, but how could he be that far away at the moment of impact?

Or is the picture in Felix's post showing us a moment several seconds after the impact - with the Ferrari already having dragged the burning Matra forward for quite some time?

We need moving pictures for this!