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The Giunti-Beltoise incident, 1971


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#101 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 18:27

Hola Felix :)

I posted a request at one of the sites where we can usually find clips. I'll see what I can get.

Arturo :wave:

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#102 ensign14

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 21:18

Originally posted by Felix Muelas

Anyone out there with a clue? ;)

Well, that begs a few questions.

#103 Paul Taylor

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 00:34

Sorry if this has already been posted...And this might not have any relavence to the thread! :blush:

There is an interview with Beltoise, filmed on 17th January 1971. Here's what Beltoise said:

"I think that the accident was bound to happen as it was caused by an appalling number of circumstances. I think that most drivers would have acted as I did...they would have pushed the car, they would have tried to go back to the pits...I was at the end of a rather slow bend and there was plenty of room on the road to pass. The road was quite wide and I never thought there was any danger. Anyway I had to take the car away from the middle of the road, because it was stopped in the middle. Before the accident I never felt I was personally in danger nor did I feel that I was endangering other people's safety. I shall certainly not stay for the next event because the organisers have asked me not to compete. Personally. I would not have taken the decision to refuse to compete in that event because I was committed to do so and also because I think this accident was caused by a combination of circumstances and it did not occur through my fault."


And you can order it here:

http://www.itnarchiv...c.tmpl&v=tabbed

It is in the French language, I think.

#104 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 01 June 2004 - 08:14

I've already posted this thing in the "Speed ultimate price" topic.

I read that the day of the accident of Ignazio Giunti, during the 1000 Km de Baires in 1971, when the Ferrari 312P got in flames just in front of the pits after the crash with the Matra, a photographer (I don't know his name) who wanted to lean out from the roof, in the smoke around the garages fell down on the road and died.

Yesterday I consulted my old collection of Autosprint magazine and I found a terrible picture in an issue of January 1971, with a very upset Jean Pierre Beltoise in the foreground walking in front of the boxes, a lot of perturbed people all around, smoke and confusion. And on the asphalt behind Beltoise the poor photographer who fell down from the roof: it seems he is definitely dead and nobody realize it!

Someone know this story? Perhaps our Argentinian friends?

#105 Muzza

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Posted 01 June 2004 - 21:11

Ciao Nanni,

I went to Brazil about a month and a half ago and, coincidentally, one of the magazines I brought back with me is the issue number 127 (February 1971) of the magazine Quatro Rodas, that has a report on the 1000 km de Buenos Aires.

This source provide details about the several huge accidents that happened during that event (Fittipaldi, Peterson and Stommelen in pratice; the Beltoise-Giunti shunt and another Peterson crash during the race. They were all pretty serious accidents), but makes no reference to the photographer you mention.

Sorry for not being able to add to this subject. I am writing to a few friends in Argentina on this concern.

Regards,


Muzza

#106 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 09:13

Autosprint magazine issue January 1971 wrote only the poor man was "an American photographer".

#107 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 09:39

I know the story from the same Autosprint issue you quote, but I don't remember having seen that elsewhere. I was indeed quite surprised with that picture of Beltoise walking along the photographer's body .

#108 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 10:38

Sorry, I'm not able to scan and post this picture (perhaps Guido? :) ).

Expression of JPB face is simply disconcerting: it seems he realized well the terrible seriousness of his act, he is walking in the pits as a sleepwalker, with his helmet in the hand, and doesn't look at the body of the poor photographer lied down behind him.
But also other people seems not realize it!

#109 gdecarli

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 23:36

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
Sorry, I'm not able to scan and post this picture (perhaps Guido? :) ).

Yes, I can, but not today. Just for my (and your) reference, we are talking about Autosprint #3/1971, page 21.

Ciao,
Guido

#110 Mohican

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 14:43

Originally posted by Muzza
Ciao Nanni,



This source provide details about the several huge accidents that happened during that event (Fittipaldi, Peterson and Stommelen in pratice; the Beltoise-Giunti shunt and another Peterson crash during the race. They were all pretty serious accidents), but makes no reference to the photographer you mention.


If I remember correctly, Ronnie was driving a Bonnier-entered Lola in the 2-litre class. I do however remember very well how he was quoted afterwards as noticing that the car flew quite a long way when upside down - which he attributed to efficient aerodynamics...

#111 conjohn

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 18:07

Originally posted by Mohican

If I remember correctly, Ronnie was driving a Bonnier-entered Lola in the 2-litre class. I do however remember very well how he was quoted afterwards as noticing that the car flew quite a long way when upside down - which he attributed to efficient aerodynamics...

The race crash, probably due to a puncture, was in a Filipinetti Lola T212 he shared with Jorge Cupeiro, but the practice crash, also caused by a puncture, was in a works Ferrari 512. Just after Ronnie had scrambled clear from that one, Emmo planted an Alfa a few meters away...

#112 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 13:16

The death of that man is first news for me. I have some magazine and newspaper reports from that race, I will be reading again looking for that.

#113 Reyna

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 16:49

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
.... I found a terrible picture in an issue of January 1971, with a very upset Jean Pierre Beltoise in the foreground walking in front of the boxes, a lot of perturbed people all around, smoke and confusion. And on the asphalt behind Beltoise the poor photographer who fell down from the roof: it seems he is definitely dead and nobody realize it!

Posted Image

Autosprint, january 1971



Rafa

#114 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 12:26

This is the picture!
Thanks, Rafa.

I'm am happy if you remember well, Pablo. My only source is Autosprint issue Jan 1971: they wrote the poor man was died.

#115 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 15 June 2004 - 07:42

Pablo (or other good friend from Argentina), have you found any news?

:confused:

#116 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 15 June 2004 - 10:39

Sorry, Nanni, I haven't found anything yet. I am at the hunt.

#117 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 15 June 2004 - 11:15

I tell you: nor "Corsa" (racing magazine) neither "El Grafico" (sports magazine), the most popular at that moment, have any clue of the incident, they didn't even mentioned it!. I surfed across the Alfredo Parga's argentinian motor racing history, and again found anything... But I have a friend working in "Cronica", the most sensionalistic newspaper in Buenos Aires, and I asked him to see the reports of the race. Maybe it will take some time but... is better than nothing.

#118 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 16 June 2004 - 22:06

Bingo!
The guy was an argentinian photographer called Lucio Solari. He was working for a local newspaper, "La Nación", taking photos from above the pits. When Beltoise past him below, he lost ground and fell, touching the driver in the fall. He was conduced to a hospital, Sanatorio Güemes, but he has nothing serious. He didn't perished, in fact. I don't know what happened later with him, but I recall I worked, many years later, with a photographer called Rodolfo Solari. We cover some motor races, and I really don't know if he is the same person. The curious thing is, this Solari lives some blocks away from my home....
Whatever, another mistery solved in TNF...

#119 jarama

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Posted 16 June 2004 - 22:40

Pablo,

Fine work! :up:

Carles.

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#120 Muzza

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 02:52

Thanks, Pablo, for clarifying this question. :up:

#121 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 08:18

Good, Pablo!
:)

Perhaps in that confusion at the moment at Baires, it seemed that the guy fallen down was died, nobody kept up the event, so Autosprint wrote simply "a photographer is died".
If I remember well in that week the magazine was in a sort of "special edition", with two black and white pages (as a newspaper) over the cover with the Giunti accident pictures and news.
After this first issue they didn't write any other news about the photographer (name, nationality, etc.)

#122 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 20:45

When seeing this drawing of the accident involving Beltoise and poor Giunti, one wonders why Beltoise pushed his car not once but twice cross the track...?

Had he stayed on the right side, he would have a shorter and much safer route back to the pits, or am I missing something?


Posted Image
Drawing from Autosprint.

#123 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 23:17

I don't think the drawing accurately reflects the rise and fall of the terrain, Rainer. We discussed this incident at some length in this thread.

#124 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 03:13

That's right. The corner was more acute than in the drawing, so the shorter -and straight- line to the pits was the one that touched the outside at the exit of the hairpin

#125 SEdward

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 13:55

A couple of things about this incident have always puzzled me.

First, Belter was completely unscathed. I find this remarkable, given the violence of the impact.
Second, since he was uninjured, then he must have, at some point, simply left his car in the middle of the track and walked away. Why on earth would he do this, since he had been pushing the car for a few hundred metres and had very nearly reached his destination?

Even if he were still pushing the car at the rear right when Guinti hit the rear left, I'm sure that he would have suffered injury of some kind.

Edward

#126 philippe7

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 14:09

Cher Edouard,

I've always read that Beltoise was still pushing the car when it got hit, and "owed his life to being on the right side of the Matra, which was hit on the left....."

I'm sure I have the relevant issue of l'Automobile Magazine somewhere in my basement, where a photo ( which I don't think I have ever seen on the net ) clearly shows Beltoise still standing on the track ( not on the grass....) , while the Ferrari is bursting in flames and the Matra is clearly still moving from the impact, rear left wheel flying off.....Beltoise had not "abandonned" his car in the middle of the track and moved to safety before the accident.

If it really is of interest to the debate I will look for the article in question and scan and post it......but I won't be able to do it before Friday , and is it worth it anyway ?

#127 SEdward

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 14:14

Merci Philippe.

I think that I may have been misled by a photo, in this forum, showing the Ferrari in flames and a figure beside the track in the background at some distance. The assumption was that this figure was Beltoise, but I am not so sure.

Edward

#128 philippe7

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 14:33

And of course, this unfortunate topic has been lenghtly discussed here :

http://forums.atlasf...y=&pagenumber=1


I will try to find this article sometimes

#129 philippe7

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 14:36

Originally posted by SEdward
Merci Philippe.

I think that I may have been misled by a photo, in this forum, showing the Ferrari in flames and a figure beside the track in the background at some distance. The assumption was that this figure was Beltoise, but I am not so sure.

Edward


I see which picture you refer to. I actually also think it's Beltoise in that pic, but first there might be some optical/telephoto lens distortion , and secondly the Ferrari certainly covered some distance after the impact .

#130 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 18:45

Thanks everybody, I see the picture clearer now.

And, I had completetly missed the tread from 2003.

#131 philippe7

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 14:45

Considering some -fully respectable- comments posted on the "Jim Clark" thread, I hope that the following will not be considered as morbid interest or unnecessary stirring of ancient facts that led to the tragic death of a racing driver who will not be brought back to life ….anyway, here are the two documents I wanted to share, because they seem to tell a different story than some posted earlier in this thread ( and in particular the "Autosprint" drawing ) and also in the older thread linked above ( maybe those threads should be merged Twinny ? )

They are scanned from an extensive article in "L'Automobile- Sport Mécanique" issue 297 from February 1971, written by journalist Christian Moity who was present at the race for the magazine and an eye witness of the accident.

The first one is the following picture, taken just seconds ( one or two…) after the impact . You can tell so due to the Matra rear wheel still flying , and the Matra itself apparently still moving.

Posted Image

This shows Jean-Pierre Beltoise still standing on the tarmac, very close to his car , which denies the theory ( and the Autosprint drawing ) of him abandoning his car and running to the safety of the grass verges before the impact It also shows that the Ferrari covered a significant distance while spinning after the impact ( Christian Moity reckons around 150 m )

The second document is this drawing and Christian Moity's comments .

Posted Image

The comment's rough translation follows :

1/ In the downhill stretch towards the hairpin, JPB feels his engine rattling and switches to his fuel reserve

2/ No luck, the engine stops for good. JP keeps a normal trajectory, and thinks he will be able to freewheel up the hill on his momentum, because the left side of the track is less steep than the right.

3/ The car stops for good . JP , who up to that moment was at the wheel of his car , climbs off and starts pushing He thinks of crossing over to the right but obviously this is too hard , so he comes back to the left and pushes his car parallel to the left trackside

4/ At that spot, JPB who knows he will need to cross the track at some stage to reach his pit, wants to take advantage of the change of camber of the track to move right. After having looked behind him, he starts crossing .

5/ Giunti's 312 (5) and Parkes' 512 (6) come out of the hairpin while JP, who was pushing ( dotted line ) , goes to move his steering wheel.

9/ Parkes , taking advantage of the "corridor" open on the left, passes by . Giunti, attempts a pass move and moves out to the right, discovers the Matra, gives a slight steering move to the left , but hits the car . JPB is still on the right side of the Matra ( dot ) , position that will save his life .

11 / The Matra is pushed towards the right by the impact , JP crosses straight to the side and the Ferrari spins twice in flames .

If this version is correct , it stresses some significant points :

A/ The Matra stopped much further along the road than on the Autosprint drawing . Therefore, contrary to what has often been written , Beltoise did not "cross the track twice" while pushing , which indeed wouldn't have made much sense.

B/ As mentioned above, Beltoise hadn't run away before the accident, unlike what Autosprint hints…. On the other hand, if I correctly understand Moity's drawing and story, he was actually not pushing at the back of the car, but trying to move his steering wheel from the right hand side of the car . Which makes it easier to understand how he didn't get hurt.

C/ Parkes indeed overtook the Matra on the left, not on the right like on the Autosprint drawing .

Finally, Moity writes in the main article that Giunti probably saw the Matra and made a desperate last second attempt to steer to the left, since the original impact on the Ferrari on the Matra's rear left corner seemed to have been on the side of the car immediately behind the front right wheel, rupturing the fuel tank in the process . The Ferrari's front wheel was not torn off from the chassis .

#132 bigears

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 15:04

Here is a post made by aerogi (he is also a member in this forum too) from fameflame.dk forums

http://tbk.fameflame...hlight=beltoise

Hello again,

Here's a series of pictures with the very sad and dramatic incident that killed Ignazio Guinti in the 1000 kms of Buenos Aires.
Guinti was driving a Ferrari 312, and at the moment of his crash, he was battling for 1st place with Parkes, and probably should have won his first and major event. Unfortunately...
Source: Sport 70, 17-JAN-1971 (Belgian Sportspaper): This article was written by one of his best friends, Jacky Ickx!
Apparently There has been many discussions who's fault this was, and how this could have happened or avoided...
and the article says there is a lot of footage of this dramatic incident. Has anybody seen this?

Aerogi

warning: the pictures and description depicts a fatal crash, although nothing graphic


http://users.pandora...1_Giunti_01.jpg
JP Beltoise in his Matra fell without fuel, and he pushed his car back to the pits. At that point he was on the right side of the track. Then he crossed the straight to move over to the pit. At that point Parkes and Giunti who where racing and battling for first place, came out of the corner, whilst Beltoise was in the middle of the race track. Parkes in a Ferrari 512 was leading, with Guinti about 30 metres behind him, and because the 512 had a "huge" back, Guinti was not able to see what was happening before them. Then Guinti moved over to catch first place, ... and collision was the result... :(

http://users.pandora...1_Giunti_02.jpg
Here' the Matra with a ripped back, whilst Guinti's Ferrari was like a "ball of fire". He probably was killed instantly. He had no chance to survive this very dramatic incident.

http://users.pandora...1_Giunti_03.jpg
Here's Beltoise in the right corner, while on the left you can see the burned out Ferrari.


Little detail about the Porsches that took part of the race

http://www.porsche91...toria1971_1.htm

#133 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 17:43

Originally posted by bigears
Here is a post made by aerogi (he is also a member in this forum too) from fameflame.dk forums

Guinti was driving a Ferrari 312, and at the moment of his crash, he was battling for 1st place with Parkes, and probably should have won his first and major event. Unfortunately...



This isn't true!
Giunti definitely leaded the race, Mike Parkes was lapped!

About this I've read the famous book "Piloti, che gente" of Enzo Ferrari, in which he wrote a very bad opinion about Parkes: he didn't want let the 312P pass (perhaps because of his problems with the Scuderia, Parkes drove a Filipinetti 512M, if I remember well, not an official car) for one or two laps!
And Enzo Ferrari assumed that Parkes changed suddenly his trajectory behind the Matra, without any signal to Ignazio Giunti, who was in his tail very close and very angry for the obstruction!

I agree more and more to the Enzo Ferrari version, then the Jacky Ickx version... :mad: (I remember at the time a sad article of Mr. Jacky Ickx in Autosprint magazine, in which he wrote JPB wasn't responsable of that accident... :( )

#134 philippe7

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 18:02

According to "L'Automobile" , Giunti was leading the race ( Thanks to the refuel pit stop of the Porsches ) and Parkes' car was laying 10th and "about to be lapped again by the 312"

#135 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 18:10

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich

I agree more and more to the Enzo Ferrari version, then the Jacky Ickx version... :mad: (I remember at the time a sad article of Mr. Jacky Ickx in Autosprint magazine, in which he wrote JPB wasn't responsable of that accident... :( )


I agree that Jacky Ickx comments on that accident were almost as scandalous as Coulthard's ones at the Senna trial, when stating that it was normal a F1 steering wheel to have a play of a couple of centimeter (measured on the ring) without the front wheels moving!!! :eek: :o :mad:

Sorry for the OT, if looked at so by some members. :

#136 ensign14

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 22:04

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich

And Enzo Ferrari assumed that Parkes changed suddenly his trajectory behind the Matra, without any signal to Ignazio Giunti, who was in his tail very close and very angry for the obstruction!

I agree more and more to the Enzo Ferrari version, then the Jacky Ickx version...

I would not necessarily consider Enzo to be the most accurate of sources...

However, looking at the Moity article, could there be a Pironi-type accident here? It looks as if Parkes was more or less in the middle of the track with Giunti behind him to his left, perhaps Parkes saw Beltoise in the distance and moved to the left to pass him, and Giunti in that split-second thought Mike was making way for him to pass on the right...and took the apparent invitation...like Pironi with Daly/Prost at Hockenheim all those years later.

(If that is true, then Parkes would not give a hand signal AT ALL as any signal would surely be seen as a "pass me" type signal?)

It also belies what Louis Stanley said about all cars having passed the incident beforehand, but there is no mention of whether there were yellow flags at all.

#137 philippe7

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 08:27

Originally posted by ensign14

It also belies what Louis Stanley said about all cars having passed the incident beforehand, but there is no mention of whether there were yellow flags at all.


In the ( long ) Moity article that I took the photo and drawing from , he states that :

-the timekeepers record show that both Ferraris had gone past the stranted Matra twice before the accident, and that Parkes confirmed that this was the case

-yellow flags were waved from the moment the Matra was stopped, until the impact. One flag marshall was standing at the exit of the hairpin, another one was standing on the left and walking alongside the Matra, but from quite far away ( "accompagnait de loin la Matra" )

-the yellow flags were usually respected when cars went past for the first time, but most drivers went back to a normal race pace once they had identified and located the danger . Which is understandable, since yellow flags are normally not to be used more than one or two laps....

#138 ensign14

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 09:05

Originally posted by philippe7
-the timekeepers record show that both Ferraris had gone past the stranted Matra twice before the accident, and that Parkes confirmed that this was the case

-yellow flags were waved from the moment the Matra was stopped, until the impact. One flag marshall was standing at the exit of the hairpin, another one was standing on the left and walking alongside the Matra, but from quite far away ( "accompagnait de loin la Matra" )

That's very interesting - so Moity DOES back up Lou Stanley.

I guess Beltoise was where Ignazio expected him to be. Perhaps he was a little distracted by Parkes' presence.

#139 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 15:01

Originally posted by Frank S
http://usuarios.lyco...iunti_cinco.jpg


The slender man with a white helmet in this picture seems to me Arturo Merzario.
So it's possible that is true he attempted to help his team mate in the fire, as he made with Lauda at Nurburgring six years later.

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#140 john winfield

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 14:18

I have just seen this on YouTube. It's not pleasant, very sad obviously, has a little footage of a preceding lap, and indicates exactly where Beltoise was when the Ferrari hit the rear of his car. It's a miracle that JPB, who had been adjusting the Matra's steering wheel at that particular moment, survived.

The whole incident seems such a tragic waste. The french presenter refers to marshalls being just out of picture, 'protecting Beltoise's manoeuvre'. Having read the whole thread a couple of years ago, I always assumed that the Matra had been pushed further across the track by the time Giunti ran into the back. Given how tight Parkes is to the apex, and that the Matra is only one car's width further to the right than on the previous (?) lap, it's hard to understand why poor Giunti wasn't more careful. Perhaps, as he tailed the 512 up through the left hander after the hairpin, the Matra was completely hidden to the point that the Italian thought it must be off the track entirely, pushed on to the grass to the left or much further off line to the right. I don't suppose we'll ever know.




As the clip ends, I can't quite make out whether the presenter is saying that the doctor who handled Giunti's autopsy stated that he was or wasn't killed by the impact. I think he's saying he wasn't but the voice-over is, I believe, cut short.

Edited by john winfield, 26 November 2009 - 14:30.


#141 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 16:07

I have just seen this on YouTube. It's not pleasant, very sad obviously, has a little footage of a preceding lap, and indicates exactly where Beltoise was when the Ferrari hit the rear of his car. It's a miracle that JPB, who had been adjusting the Matra's steering wheel at that particular moment, survived.

The whole incident seems such a tragic waste. The french presenter refers to marshalls being just out of picture, 'protecting Beltoise's manoeuvre'. Having read the whole thread a couple of years ago, I always assumed that the Matra had been pushed further across the track by the time Giunti ran into the back. Given how tight Parkes is to the apex, and that the Matra is only one car's width further to the right than on the previous (?) lap, it's hard to understand why poor Giunti wasn't more careful. Perhaps, as he tailed the 512 up through the left hander after the hairpin, the Matra was completely hidden to the point that the Italian thought it must be off the track entirely, pushed on to the grass to the left or much further off line to the right. I don't suppose we'll ever know.




As the clip ends, I can't quite make out whether the presenter is saying that the doctor who handled Giunti's autopsy stated that he was or wasn't killed by the impact. I think he's saying he wasn't but the voice-over is, I believe, cut short.


Could it be, looking at the footage, that Giunt lost a little his Ferrari to the right? In fact, when accelerating the cars are leaving behind the corner to the right. A couple of years ago, Carlos Funes, the argentinian that is FIA technical adviser (this year has been to FIA Formula 2 championship) told me something new about that incident. I forgot exactly what but I remember I wrote about it, so I will look for it.





#142 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 16:49

It seems to me that Giunti can now be absolved of any blame for the accident. As I see it, he was not overtaking, or even trying to overtake. He was tucked in behind Parkes, totally unsighted, but keeping half a car's width from the left side of the track as he would have remembered where the Matra was on the previous lap (as shown on the video). Parkes had enough time to pull to the left and pass the Matra with his left-hand wheels on the grass. Giunti tried to jink left, but, as Pablo says, didn't have enough grip and started to lose the car just before impact. Beltoise was incredibly lucky ...

#143 seccotine

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 19:42

I have just seen this on YouTube. It's not pleasant, very sad obviously, has a little footage of a preceding lap, and indicates exactly where Beltoise was when the Ferrari hit the rear of his car. It's a miracle that JPB, who had been adjusting the Matra's steering wheel at that particular moment, survived.

The whole incident seems such a tragic waste. The french presenter refers to marshalls being just out of picture, 'protecting Beltoise's manoeuvre'. Having read the whole thread a couple of years ago, I always assumed that the Matra had been pushed further across the track by the time Giunti ran into the back. Given how tight Parkes is to the apex, and that the Matra is only one car's width further to the right than on the previous (?) lap, it's hard to understand why poor Giunti wasn't more careful. Perhaps, as he tailed the 512 up through the left hander after the hairpin, the Matra was completely hidden to the point that the Italian thought it must be off the track entirely, pushed on to the grass to the left or much further off line to the right. I don't suppose we'll ever know.




As the clip ends, I can't quite make out whether the presenter is saying that the doctor who handled Giunti's autopsy stated that he was or wasn't killed by the impact. I think he's saying he wasn't but the voice-over is, I believe, cut short.



I remembered that film pretty well considering I had seen it a couple of times on TV when I was a child, 38 years ago, and never since.
The way Beltoise pushes the car, looks behind, pushes again, jumps at the impact is so memorable.

As we don't see the marshalls, we must trust the comment but it is difficult to know how visible the flags were, although it is clear that drivers in those days wouldn't have slowed down because of a car stopped on the track (neither would one of them have hesitated to push his the way Beltoise pushed his Matra, maybe encouraged by the marshalls' reaction). And actually, that is the right perspective : back then, concerns and behaviours were hugely different.
Seen through our contemporary eyes, Beltoise appears somehow careless, even though the role played by the marshalls seems tu greatly attenuate his responsibility. And Giunti isn't more cautious. He knows Beltoise is there and he doesn't slow down - but none of the other drivers does.
Once again, back then, those two attitudes weren't exceptional. One can even assume that in both cases, drivers believed they were proving their dedication.
What else to say?



#144 Chezrome

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 20:03

I remembered that film pretty well considering I had seen it a couple of times on TV when I was a child, 38 years ago, and never since.
The way Beltoise pushes the car, looks behind, pushes again, jumps at the impact is so memorable.

As we don't see the marshalls, we must trust the comment but it is difficult to know how visible the flags were, although it is clear that drivers in those days wouldn't have slowed down because of a car stopped on the track (neither would one of them have hesitated to push his the way Beltoise pushed his Matra, maybe encouraged by the marshalls' reaction). And actually, that is the right perspective : back then, concerns and behaviours were hugely different.
Seen through our contemporary eyes, Beltoise appears somehow careless, even though the role played by the marshalls seems tu greatly attenuate his responsibility. And Giunti isn't more cautious. He knows Beltoise is there and he doesn't slow down - but none of the other drivers does.
Once again, back then, those two attitudes weren't exceptional. One can even assume that in both cases, drivers believed they were proving their dedication.
What else to say?


Somehow careless... I had never seen this footage, and the accident to me is more flabbergasting than I ever thought. I just can't imagine someone like Jacky Stewart or even Jim Clark do what Beltoise did. Pushing car three metres from the apex... But perhaps I am wrong. Jack Brabham pushed his car along the straight to win his first championship, right? Perhaps someone who has followed those years actively can tell me if the times were that different that such an action was, well, normal.




#145 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 20:15

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, Innes Ireland pushed (and freewheeled) his Lotus most of the way round the Monte Carlo track, including through the tunnel, in the 1960 Monaco GP. Nobody seemed too bothered.

Edited by Tim Murray, 27 November 2009 - 20:21.


#146 john winfield

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 22:19

One of the photos here, from an Italian magazine that I don't recognise, show the flag marshall and official who, presumably, are just out of sight in the two clips on the french report.

http://media.photobu...Giunti_0051.jpg

My understanding of Italian is very poor, I'm afraid - I wonder if someone out there can help. Is the main gist of the article critical of the (flag) marshalls for arriving too late?

Edited by john winfield, 27 November 2009 - 23:00.


#147 seccotine

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 23:04

One of the photos here, from an Italian magazine that I don't recognise, show the flag marshall and official who, presumably, are just out of sight in the two clips on the french report.

http://media.photobu...Giunti_0051.jpg


The image is very clear. The guys were there and couldn't be missed. No one slowed down though...

On the other hand, as someone wrote, "I just can't imagine someone like Jacky Stewart or even Jim Clark do what Beltoise did".
That is right. But remember Stewart was often criticised or mocked, very harshly, for being so concerned with security.
In retrospect, it is clear to us that he was obviously a lucid man but also that he was an exception among his colleagues.

#148 LittleChris

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 23:36

Given the straight from the preceding hairpin is slightly uphill and only around 200 meters long, surely Mike Parkes must've been focussed on the upcoming corner and thus been able to see the marshals virtually from the point at which he left the hairpin and realised from their position signalling right at the edge of the track that there was something untoward happening at the corner ?

The fact that Giunti didn't attempt to overtake him between the hairpin and the left hander indicates to me that Parkes continued at race speed all the way to the incident and the unsighted Giunti would've trusted in him and done the same. I don't understand why Parkes didn't slow at least slightly when there was obviously some form of danger immediately ahead since this would've either signalled to Giunti that there was a problem or Giunti would've pulled out to overtake and seen the marshalls for himself.

All in all a very sad day :(

#149 Andrew Hope

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 05:00

I have read anecdotally that Arturo Merzario pulled Giunti out of the flaming wreckage, but I have also (sadly) seen a picture of the wreckage with the fire apparently out, and a lifeless Giunti still strapped in. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me?

Thanks.

#150 john winfield

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 10:37

Given the straight from the preceding hairpin is slightly uphill and only around 200 meters long, surely Mike Parkes must've been focussed on the upcoming corner and thus been able to see the marshals virtually from the point at which he left the hairpin and realised from their position signalling right at the edge of the track that there was something untoward happening at the corner ?

The fact that Giunti didn't attempt to overtake him between the hairpin and the left hander indicates to me that Parkes continued at race speed all the way to the incident and the unsighted Giunti would've trusted in him and done the same. I don't understand why Parkes didn't slow at least slightly when there was obviously some form of danger immediately ahead since this would've either signalled to Giunti that there was a problem or Giunti would've pulled out to overtake and seen the marshalls for himself.

All in all a very sad day :(



Chris,
I have another thought to add to all the varied points made since this thread started many years ago. As an aside, I agree with those who remind us that things were different. Racers raced, took more risks perhaps, while race organisation wasn't as slick as it is now.

Parkes and Giunti may have been almost a lap apart but they were still very much racing. The 512 had made an early stop for fuel from around sixth position while the 312 was yet to call in at the pits, Giunti taking over the lead from the Porsche 917s when they stopped. I have no idea what Parkes felt towards the works Ferrari team in 1971 but I wouldn't expect him to give way easily to a car against which he was competing for the next few hours.
Everything about these few laps at Buenos Aires looks so rash to us today: JPB deciding to push, the marshalls apparently allowing him to do so, cars driving past at racing speed, Giunti tucking into Parkes' slipstream etc. Perhaps Chris is right that, having passed Beltoise a couple of times already, Giunti felt confident that he could follow Parkes up through the final left hander at full pace, planning, presumably, to slipstream across the start-finish line and overtake under braking into the first corner. However, I don't necessarily blame Parkes. As far as I can gather, the two Ferraris had, on the previous lap, passed Beltoise to the right. By then, it seems that JPB had used the track camber to push the Matra from the inside of the hairpin exit to the 'outside', or what later becomes the inside, racing line of the last left hander. In the 'French' video clip we see JPB pushing the Matra on the very left of the tarmac.
By the time Parkes comes round again, Beltoise has pushed his car further around the uphill left hander and has begun to edge across towards the pits, although he is only one car width further across, nowhere near what is shown in one of the previous drawings on this thread. I don't think Parkes, looking uphill at the coming corner, would be able to spot the subtle change of track position until too late - in fact his view might even have been blocked by the marshall and 'commissaire' standing on the grass. Parkes would have been thundering up around the left hander, planning to sweep past very close to the right side of the Matra. Instead he found the Matra slightly across to the right, on the racing line, with JPB, not pushing from behind, but to the right of the car, adjusting the steering wheel. Parkes' natural reaction may have been to head for the space to the left. I don't think there would have been time for him to signal to Giunti or slow safely. Perhaps he could have swung to the right of the Matra but, with Giunti right behind, would the 312 then have hit the right rear of the French car, killing Beltoise?

So, aside from all the other issues, I think track visibility up from the hairpin through the climbing left hander may have contributed to the sad outcome and, if we think the film clip shows us Parkes darting left of the Matra at the last second, the reasons behind this need taking into account.