76 replies to this topic

[fastlegs]

Here's an interesting article I just read at Autosport.com

Source: http://www.autosport...sp?id=27690&s=5

Red Bull eyes Jaguar
If Ford decide to sell the ailing Formula 1 team

Jaguar face a buy-out if Ford decide to pull the plug


Red Bull has been linked to a buy-out of the Jaguar F1 team at the end of the 2004 season should the Big Cat's parent company Ford decide to sell the struggling outfit, according to this week's Autosport magazine.

The boss of the energy drink giant, Dietrich Mateschitz, is reportedly very serious about the buy-out, which would also include buying the team's engine supplier Cosworth as he bids to run an ‘All American F1 Team' powered by Ford engines.

Chances of a buy-out increased last weekend when the team's major sponsor HSBC revealed it would not continue backing the team beyond 2004. At HSBC's AGM, the bank's chairman, Sir John Bond, told shareholders that it was not satisfied with Jaguar's performance.

“I share your disappointment with the team's performance,” he said. “We did it to raise our profile and I thinnk it has probably served its purpose. We are committed to the end of 2004 and will make an announcement at the right time.”

A team source told the magazine that the outfit had recently held a successful meeting with Ford, but it is thought that certain conditions need to be met in order for the manufacturer to continue backing the team.

“There is a feeling that he who spends the most wins,” said the source. “But if it is fair and the sport's costs remain sensible then Ford has every intention of staying.”

Even if the Jaguar buy-out does not happen, the drinks giant could become a major backer of the team switching its allegiance from Sauber – who it currently sponsors – to Jaguar with Red Bull-backed F3000 star Vitantonio Liuzzi and Renault test driver Franck Montagny considered possible drivers should Mark Webber leave.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Seems like it would be cheaper to just sponsor the team.

[benn5325]

Also quite amusing that an Austrian Company wants to start an all American team

[Ross Stonefeld]

They've gotten this idea in their head that F1 is popular in the states.

[Sakae]

Originally posted by benn5325
Also quite amusing that an Austrian Company wants to start an all American team

I am not sure if it is amusing, but surely it sounds like a strange marketing plan. American market is oversaturated by choices, TV adds, etc. I can't see Red Bull replacing Coca Cola any time soon, especially when F1 is a fringe sport for the Americans. I am not a marketing specialist, but to sell Red Bull drinks to some odd 200,000 F1 loving boys and girls I would have thought that there are some less expensive ways of doing so.

[eoin]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
They've gotten this idea in their head that F1 is popular in the states.

Is it all North American or all American? RedBull also want to break into the south american market, and F1 would be a good platform for that.

[fastlegs]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
They've gotten this idea in their head that F1 is popular in the states.

I could see F1 becoming popular in the states if;

1. There was a very competitive American team

2. There was a very competitive American driver

Hopefully someday in the near distant future this will become a reality.

[coyoteBR]

Well, it would be one less team controlled by big car companies - what is very good. But, on the other hand, RedBull isn't exactly a privateers - it would enter the sport by the wrong reasons.

But still is the lesser evil

[benn5325]

As they are so desperate to get popular in the US you would think their money would be more wisely spent on a Nextel Cup car. That would only set them back about 5-6 mil a year instead of the 40+ that they would piss down the drain in F1.
And if Eddie Cheever has anything to do with it, forget it. He’ll have a new driver every week.

[brad_d]

Originally posted by eoin
Is it all North American or all American? RedBull also want to break into the south american market, and F1 would be a good platform for that.

I assume they're using "American" to mean "of the United States," as that is the dominant meaning of the term here. That's certainly been what Red Bull has meant in their much-ballyhooed "American driver search."

This article at f1-live.com is a bit more explicit:

The Red Bull boss, who is already talking to Jaguar about a major sponsorship deal, wants to set up an 'All American' F1 team with US- born race drivers.

One may argue the semantics of this, I suppose. Whenever this comes up much acrimony seems to accompany it, and I don't feel like getting into it again.

[Palle]

The problem being that Matriz Mateschnitz has been linked with most teams in the pitlane over the last few years. The guy have no idea of racing, and do not seem to be serious about his American driver support.

As a recent tread showed here on this very BB, it was actually more a promotion of Red Bull than a search for fast and talented drivers.

At the same time, the record of Mateschnitz so far in F1 has been pretty poor. He has consistently sponsored all the wrong (unsuccesfull) teams and drivers, and I am still not convinced about the ability of his latest wonder, i.e. Klien.

If Mateschnitz had been serious about all his racing speak he would have acted long ago to be a team owner.

But it seems everytime some team are talking about being sold or going bankrupt, it is either being taking over byu Craig Bollocks or Mateschnitz......

[Artisan]

I read an interview segment with Mateschnitz in a magazine article right about three months after the first batch of US drivers went over for the Red Bull driver search competions. He was very adamant in his oppinion that F1 could be popular in the US with a team and a driver combination from here. He stated that Ford was the only choice for a US factory effort, but that they should be bannered as a Ford and not Jaguar; he feels that Ford's international competion heratage is a marketing asset that could help draw more US fans to F1.

Now, the guy may be so full of himself as to put your average NBA basketball player to shame, but he has a lot of money he wants to use to control an F1 team, not just sponsor it. The effort may go down in flames, but don't be surprised to see Red Bull/ Ford on your tv screens in the near future.

[KinetiK]

Red Bull is 3x the price of Coca-Cola here, it certainly won't replace Coke here (to echo MiPe). Maybe they'll hire Arnold, he's as All American as you can get (for being Austrian & all).

[eoin]

Originally posted by brad_d
I assume they're using "American" to mean "of the United States," as that is the dominant meaning of the term here. That's certainly been what Red Bull has meant in their much-ballyhooed "American driver search."

This article at f1-live.com is a bit more explicit:One may argue the semantics of this, I suppose. Whenever this comes up much acrimony seems to accompany it, and I don't feel like getting into it again.

Yes but I would be surprised if Redbull didn't hire a south american driver aswell as a driver from the States. American power(ford), american driver, and a south american driver-possible a one with a connection to the States.

Red Bull is 3x the price of Coca-Cola here, it certainly won't replace Coke here (to echo MiPe). Maybe they'll hire Arnold, he's as All American as you can get (for being Austrian & all).

Red Bull is only considered a mixer here, it has some use around exam time aswell.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by eoin


Yes but I would be surprised if Redbull didn't hire a south american driver aswell as a driver from the States. American power(ford), american driver, and a south american driver-possible a one with a connection to the States.

Thats what Enrique Bernoldi was.

Apparently Red Bull have spent 30mil over 8 seasons on young drivers, and only got Klien to F1.

[D. Heimgartner]

I think RedBull is better served focusing on the extreme sports crowd. Sponsoring motorsprots is extremely expensive, and I don't think the rate of return is as high. The only man who could make F1 popular in the United States of America is one Jeff Gordon, and the fellow knows that.

BTW, I resent the poster who said that RedBull is sponsoring all the "wrong" teams. Sauber is "right" team! For their budget and size, they are doing incredibly well and have never embarressed the sport like Ferrari or Jordan.

[cheesy poofs]

So if Red Bull wants to promote young american racers, then what happens to all the europeans drivers that are sponsored by them ? Are they going to be left out in the cold...?

[Ross Stonefeld]

The American thing is seperate. Basically if you're American or Austrian, you're in. They've got 5 guys just in Formula Renault.

[cheesy poofs]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The American thing is seperate. Basically if you're American or Austrian, you're in. They've got 5 guys just in Formula Renault.

Does one know how many americans are racing under the Red Bull banner. And what about the other single seater drivers that are racing for them ? Can we make an actual count of the lot ?

[Ross Stonefeld]

http://www.redbull-j...highlights.php4

[cheesy poofs]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
http://www.redbull-j...highlights.php4

[Pilla]

I doubt they will buy cosworth, maybe cosworth engines but not cosworth. Cosworth is linked in to much with fords other motorsports efforts.

[Goodwood]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
They've gotten this idea in their head that F1 is popular in the states.

lol, no doubt. Who told them this?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Seemingly they came up with it on their own. I cant think of any other explanation.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by fastlegs


I could see F1 becoming popular in the states if;

1. There was a very competitive American team

2. There was a very competitive American driver

Hopefully someday in the near distant future this will become a reality.

Speaking as someone living in California :

3. Races take place at a competitive time slot.

Given that this would basically mean races being on the continent of America, I doubt it's gonna happen. F1 can't be popular in a part of the World where 75% of the races take place at 5am.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Whats funny is JYS in the interview on the main page conducted by the USGP, said cycling took off becuase of Armstrong. Except it hasnt. he gets a minor news blurb each year when he wins, and CBS shows one or two stages, which get CART level ratings; but the main cycling coverage is the Speed Channel equivalent of non-motorsports.


Put this under "cant happen"

[giddyup409]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Whats funny is JYS in the interview on the main page conducted by the USGP, said cycling took off becuase of Armstrong. Except it hasnt. he gets a minor news blurb each year when he wins, and CBS shows one or two stages, which get CART level ratings; but the main cycling coverage is the Speed Channel equivalent of non-motorsports.


Put this under "cant happen"

actually armstrong gets a lot of heart-breaking coverage in the major daily newspapers or espn sportnews. sort of like olympics. you read more about olympics in daily newspaper or find out in quick sports news than follow the whole show on tv. that one second segment of full glory with sponsors name on it repeated 20 times an hour (i.e story about armstrong coming up) is strong and cheap advertising, no?

[Ross Stonefeld]

And then the rest of the year....nothing.

[giddyup409]

another example: just saw on tv a subaru commercial. guess what, armstrong shows up at the end. why, whats common? associating a proven winner with subaru?

dunno, perhaps the rest of the year they'll use bob dole?

[Ross Stonefeld]

But usually targeted at a specific audience. And thats Subaru using Lance Armstrong. If Red Bull want to buy commercials during the Super Bowl and show Formula Renaults thats great, doesnt make road racing popular :

[giddyup409]

well yeah, it isn't about making the racing popular, it's all about making the product popular.
i'm not sure what red bull is on to with buying jaguarf1? reality shows are very popular lately in us. perhaps an idea that out of let say 20K US drivers here's one american taking a jaguar to the top of the world? dunno, but it's not my money they're wasting.

[jondoe955]

shhhh - don't tell Red Bull. They might not spend their money.
I find their ads very odd here (States), like they use their european ads and add English voices. And can't imagine those ads having much effect here.... but then I find beer ads very odd - and all TOO american.

[D. Heimgartner]

If RedBull really wanted to make a mark on American motorsports, they'd become title sponsor of Champcar, buy three hours of Sunday Tv coverage on CBS for each race, and give free RedBull to every fan at the race.

Red Bull Champcar World Series.

I like the ring of that.

[shaggy]

For some reason or another, road racing is like futbol. It is extremely popular all over the world and a total unknown in the US.
Futbol/soccer is the most played sport by the youth in the US, but the MLS gets an average 0.3 rating on tv. When the US national team plays, it gets about a 1.3 or so.

People in the US may know who Lance Armstrong is, due to the coverage he gets for a few days after winning the TdF. But, how many Americans know who Jan Ullrich, Miguel Indurain or Bobby Jullich are ? Have you ever come across an American who knows who Pettachi or Cipollini are ?

Bringing American drivers into OW racing is going to help, but not if those Americans are racing in Europe and showing up on tv at 8 am on a Sunday. Red Bull should sponsor OWRS, which is similar to F1, instead of the IRL which has nothing in common with F1. Putting an American driver, in a Jaguar racing in Europe, is useless. At least, associate that driver with Ford - an American icon - and not with Jaguar.

shaggy

[Jason]

Just curious, did US F1 veiwership go up when Michael Andretti raced for McLaren, in 1993? It's be also be interesting to see if Marlboro sales, in the US, went up, during that period, as a result.;)

[Megatron]

I think they were initally but then he actually got on the track. Marlboro wanted Michael either at Ferrari (so they could put "M.Andretti" on his uniform I guess) or McLaren.

Andretti left screaming and they held the door open for him. Oddly, Michael might have had the option to stay in 1994, but Dennis couldn't guarentee on paper that Peugeot wouldn't want a French pilot in the second car.

Red Bull were going to buy Arrows, then maybe Jordan, then maybe their own team, now Jaguar. I will believe it when I see it. I do think it is inevitable that the Ford logo will return to the factory cars and the cat will be gone. It might be next year, maybe three or four.

[NeilB]

Right so this is to be an all American F1 team is it? So then where is it going to be based? The US? I can just see all the team personell been chuffed to bits having to take a long flight from Europe back to the US after each race, just to prep a car and then a week later fly back out. Also they are going to be using Ford engines, which in theory they are not as they are Cosworth engines with a Ford sticker nailed on. American drivers? I can't see a decent one on the horizon, and the Red Bull driver programme is a joke.

The more this story circulates the more stupid it is, it is not an American F1 team. It's a proposed European team pretending to be American, sadly just like society today.

[GhostR]

Personally I think this is just the rumour mill going wild. There's been rumours of Red Bull buying a team for ages now. Whenever a team seems to be dying a financial death or the factory behind it pulling it, the rumours start that Red Bull will buy the team. So what have we got here? Recent stories that Ford might be entertaining the thought of pulling the plug on Jag (probably a good idea, the half-way house they're sitting in doesn't work in F1 - either commit or get out). Makes sense that the Red Bull "link" would come up, given it has so many times in the past.

[Dudley]

which would also include buying the team's engine supplier Cosworth as he bids to run an ‘All American F1 Team' powered by Ford engines.

So he'd buy the supplier, yet continue to badge the engines with the name of the previous owner?

That'd be like seeing BAR - Tyrrells running around.

What they must mean is "buying the SUPPLY"

[Megatron]

Originally posted by NeilB
Right so this is to be an all American F1 team is it? So then where is it going to be based? The US? I can just see all the team personell been chuffed to bits having to take a long flight from Europe back to the US after each race, just to prep a car and then a week later fly back out. Also they are going to be using Ford engines, which in theory they are not as they are Cosworth engines with a Ford sticker nailed on. American drivers? I can't see a decent one on the horizon, and the Red Bull driver programme is a joke.

The more this story circulates the more stupid it is, it is not an American F1 team. It's a proposed European team pretending to be American, sadly just like society today.

No one with any common sense would base a team other than Europe. Toyota took a flaking for being in Germany and Ferrari have spent who knows how much to attract top personal to Italy.

Having a US team doesn't mean that it has to be based in the US, nor should it be expected. Previous US teams were almost always run in Europe. This would be the equalivant of trying to run a NASCAR team from the UK just so you could say we are from the UK.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by GhostR
Personally I think this is just the rumour mill going wild. There's been rumours of Red Bull buying a team for ages now. Whenever a team seems to be dying a financial death or the factory behind it pulling it, the rumours start that Red Bull will buy the team. So what have we got here? Recent stories that Ford might be entertaining the thought of pulling the plug on Jag (probably a good idea, the half-way house they're sitting in doesn't work in F1 - either commit or get out). Makes sense that the Red Bull "link" would come up, given it has so many times in the past.

Exactly, how many times have we heard this rumour the last 4-5 years? Lots of free publicity for Red Bull only that what it is all about. there have been plenty of opportunities for Red Bull to buy a team the last years, for example Arrows, Prost, Minardi, even Jordan probably. Never materialized though.

[dworsham]

I hope this is true in some form that will be worked through.

TRUTHs:

- Certianly and American team does not need to be based in America;
- an American team should be a Western team - north and south America;
- an organic western driver program needs to continue, culmanting in an F2 drive: this made easier by a western car;
- $$$, look at the potential corporate sponsorship beyond the Red Bull empire - Boeing, ATT, Microsoft - mega $$$

F1 is the leading edge of motorsport - I hope Red Bull brings it home.

[Megatron]

I don't know about anyone else but I would like it more with Jaguar (under American ownership) and even BAR (under co American ownership) than someone simply wanting to sell more drinks in a certain country.

[Buford]

Couldn't they sell more Red Bull if it didn't taste like distilled afterbirth?

[Megatron]

All I have in my area is Red Bull and sugar Free Red Bull. Do they make any other flavors? Some drink companies have more than one flavor, ie Stacker 2.

[WACKO]

I don't expect Red Bull to fully take over and the reason is pretty obvious. Ford could never completely withdraw as Formula One relies heavily on them for custom engines. The publicity it generates from that is very limited, so only through Jaguar it can really be on the front end for publicity. If the team is sold, the Ford management team will probably leave and that would be the beginnng of the end. Not that they would do so altogether, but one after another. The team would be down sooner than later.

One can expect Red Bull to increase it's backing though. In that construction it could have a vote in naming the drivers (Klien, Liuzzi, Antinucci?) and Ford would not have to increase investments massively.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by WACKO
I don't expect Red Bull to fully take over and the reason is pretty obvious. Ford could never completely withdraw as Formula One relies heavily on them for custom engines. The publicity it generates from that is very limited, so only through Jaguar it can really be on the front end for publicity. If the team is sold, the Ford management team will probably leave and that would be the beginnng of the end. Not that they would do so altogether, but one after another. The team would be down sooner than later.

One can expect Red Bull to increase it's backing though. In that construction it could have a vote in naming the drivers (Klien, Liuzzi, Antinucci?) and Ford would not have to increase investments massively.

Thats what I think will happen. Ford in the past has made quite a bit of $$$ from customer engines and also gotten tremendous exposure with virtually every great driver from Clark to Schumacher in a Cossie (and therefore a Ford on the entry list).

I don't see Jaguar running forever, but I don't think Ford would ever pull out Cosworth.

[WACKO]

It would be a shame if they would abandon Jaguar actually. It is such legendary brand and as much connected with motorsport as Ferrari. Jaguar belongs in F1 and should stay. I really don't understand why on earth Ford doesn't invest a bit more in the team, so that it can challenge. That will generate significantly more commercial interest and income from sponsorship. They should just do more to push the team forward. Take Toyota and Honda for example; they are far more actively working on their future than Jaguar.

[Megatron]

To get more results, the team needs more money. In order to get more money, the team needs results.

I agree about the Jaguar name, but it has zero experience in F1 aside from a one off in a Ferrari chassis in 1950 and a couple of no go's.

While not a name that inspires passion, Ford (with Cosworth providing much of the sucess but under the Ford name) has a racing history that is unmatched as far as success in various racing catagories.

176 Grand Prix wins, 12 drivers championships, six Le Mans wins (two in 75 and 80 with the DFV in other peoples cars along with the GT40s from 1966-1969), the Indy 500, NASCAR (once upon a time it meant something to a car maker to win in NASCAR before headlight decals arrived), Rally, touring cars, etc.

I would think it would only be approiate for Ford to be in F1 and not Jaguar. Putting Jaguar in F1 would be the equalivant of Renault buying Benetton and putting Nissan all over the car and saying "Nissan is back!".

[The Vulcan]

I think Klien's contract extension with Jaguar are indications that Red Bull is there to stay with the team. With HSBC apparently shifting its sponsorhsip to McLaren, Red Bull would be ready to step up and be the title sponsor for the Jaguar team. It would probably take a little longer before Red Bull takes over a team in F1.;)