45 replies to this topic

[simpson]

Did anyone see F1 Decade on Speed this past weekend? It was a replay of the 1994 GP at Silverstone, where Schumacher got black flagged but didn’t stop.

This seemed like a ludicrous example of officiating. First to give a penalty that was misworded, then to bring out the black flag without even consulting the team on why it hadn’t been obeyed seemed to me to be a total abuse of the officials’ function.

There was an infraction, technically. Then an ambiguous note stating the penalty was given to the team. Next, when the penalty wasn’t served in the way that the officials expected, you’d think the next step would be to consult with the team at least briefly with an ultimatum. Of course Schumacher had no choice but to stop when the black flag was shown to him, which he didn’t, and I agree that he should get a major thrashing for it, despite it’s unfairness in that case.

But the black flag should only be brought out as an extreme measure – mostly to do with safety, such as a car falling apart or spilling oil on the track. That the official waved such a grave flag for such a minor reason seems to warrant a sanction. What I’d like to know is if anyone here knows what happened to that official. I’d have to assume that he never worked at a GP in an official capacity again.

[Ross Stonefeld]

*shrug* it broke the other way for him 4 years later.

[John B]

Pretty much a microcosm of the entire 1994 season......

[TEquiLA]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
*shrug* it broke the other way for him 4 years later.

I didn't get that, how come?

[Seat18E]

The most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. IMO MS's suspension as a result was only a means to continue interest in the season which would have been over long before Adelaide.

Fact is that Schumacher passed Senna on the parade lap in Brazil and Aida. And I just noticed (from watching F1 Decade) that Damon Hill himself did the very same thing in either France or Canada.... I intended to post on it after watching the race but forgot.

Talk about either a total farce or double standard.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by TEquiLA
I didn't get that, how come?

Silverstone 98 he passed someone under yellow on a restart, and the FIA made such a meal of the penalty Schumacher crossed the finish line on the final lap, coming into the pits to serve his penalty, and basically won before he got to his pitstop. FIA totally screwed it up, and it ended up being to his benefit.

Originally posted by Seat18E
The most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. IMO MS's suspension as a result was only a means to continue interest in the season which would have been over long before Adelaide.

Fact is that Schumacher passed Senna on the parade lap in Brazil and Aida. And I just noticed (from watching F1 Decade) that Damon Hill himself did the very same thing in either France or Canada.... I intended to post on it after watching the race but forgot.

Talk about either a total farce or double standard.

very different degrees of the same action.

[Chevy II Nova]

Didn't he claim not to see the flag due to the sun, with another top driver backing him up?

[Pinguin]

Schumacher was clearly trying to out-psyche Hill. He passed Hill on the TWO parade laps, and didn't make an attempt to give back position to Hill asap.

Then ignoring the flags....

Recently Raikkonen passed Ralf Schumacher a year ago in Monaco on the parade lap, reason being that R. Schumacher was quite slow off the line, but Raikkonen waited for him on the hill top & let him by at Masonett...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Pinguin
Schumacher was clearly trying to out-psyche Hill.

That was my impression as well.

[Dudley]

Silverstone 1994 - Schumacher black flagged

That's some network lag.

[TEquiLA]

Originally posted by Dudley


That's some network lag.

[andrimitum]

Politics,

it was the same thing that happened to JV in 97, but it happend to everyone, NM got it, AS and AP were interfered with on their road to a cahmpionship, it was just the FIA trying to affect the outcome of the season.

It seemed to me that when MS started doing well they tryed every trick in the book to take points from him, but by the time 97 rolled around it worked the other way, anyone challenging MS got penalized.


Until Jerez that is.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by andrimitum
Politics,

it was the same thing that happened to JV in 97...

When JV was regularly ignoring yellow flags?

[Mila]

Originally posted by Chevy II Nova
Didn't he claim not to see the flag due to the sun, with another top driver backing him up?

so maybe he didn't see Hill on the parade lap either.;)

seriously, he can't get off that easily, since the team knew what was going on. my guess is that Briatore and Co. were advising MS to stay out on the track while they mulled over the INITIAL penalty with the marshals. this course of action has proven prudent, given that occasionally penalties have been overturned through good arguments, reassessments, and so forth.

[simpson]

I suppose that the biggest surprise to me was and still is the poor and uneven officiating - especially when you think what kind of a multimillion (or billion) dollar sport it is and how visible all these gaffs are to the world. As far as the drivers, I won't take sides, but if politics or showing favour towards or against a participant gets in the way of rules enforcerment, it's sad.

Anyway, as I said, I think that Schumacher had no choice but to stop for the black flag, but the official who showed it should have been hung by his thumbs. I doubt that happened.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Chevy II Nova
Didn't he claim not to see the flag due to the sun, with another top driver backing him up?

No, that was Mansell in Portugal 1989, also being blackflagged, not coming in, had a collision with Senna (showing that they both had an IQ of 25 at most) and being fined $ (or £) 25,000 afterwards....

Hrvoje

[BorderReiver]

Just to stir things up a little you understand. . . .;)

There is a strong possibility that Schumacher's Benetton shouldn't have been on that parade lap anyway. Perhaps the black flag was a delayed stealth penalty for actions carried out in earlier races *Cough TC Cough* ? Who knows? But it would certainly have been less embarassing than accusing F1's Championship leading team of outright cheating in an already very difficult year for the "blood sport". *cough illegal removal of fuel ring*

*BorderReiver takes his big stirring stick out of the slop bucket*

[LB]

Originally posted by Mila


so maybe he didn't see Hill on the parade lap either.;)

seriously, he can't get off that easily, since the team knew what was going on. my guess is that Briatore and Co. were advising MS to stay out on the track while they mulled over the INITIAL penalty with the marshals. this course of action has proven prudent, given that occasionally penalties have been overturned through good arguments, reassessments, and so forth.

Name 1 occasion when a penalty applied has been overturned.

The Penalty itself may have been a bit frivilous but I totally agree with the race ban for ignoring the flag. The black flag is a fundimental rule in motorsport and to ignore it was ridiculous and arrogant and possibly even dangerous. Mansell was banned for the same action why not Schumacher?

[Witt]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
Just to stir things up a little you understand. . . .;)

There is a strong possibility that Schumacher's Benetton shouldn't have been on that parade lap anyway. Perhaps the black flag was a delayed stealth penalty for actions carried out in earlier races *Cough TC Cough* ? Who knows? But it would certainly have been less embarassing than accusing F1's Championship leading team of outright cheating in an already very difficult year for the "blood sport". *cough illegal removal of fuel ring*

*BorderReiver takes his big stirring stick out of the slop bucket*

In hindsight this is almost becoming the 'truth' as to why 1994 degenerated into the farce that it did. I wasn't into F1 then, but from all accounts, this is the impression i get of what happened that year.

It makes sense that if (and i stress if) Benetton were caught with their pants down sometime during 1994, that exposing them for cheating would have been a catastrophe for F1's public image in the wake of Senna's death. The FIA looked to bring their hand down on Benetton for every little infraction they could because they couldn't ping them for the big one. In effect, the penalties for pithy reasons still cost Benetton the constructors championship that season. History has shown us that cheating or not, Schumacher still would have creamed the opposition for the Driver's Championship that year, because he is was leagues ahead of the competition. Manufactured by the FIA perhaps, but the right names were on the right trophies by season's end if Benetton had been cheating.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Witt


In hindsight this is almost becoming the 'truth' as to why 1994 degenerated into the farce that it did. I wasn't into F1 then, but from all accounts, this is the impression i get of what happened that year.

It makes sense that if (and i stress if) Benetton were caught with their pants down sometime during 1994, that exposing them for cheating would have been a catastrophe for F1's public image in the wake of Senna's death. The FIA looked to bring their hand down on Benetton for every little infraction they could because they couldn't ping them for the big one. In effect, the penalties for pithy reasons still cost Benetton the constructors championship that season. History has shown us that cheating or not, Schumacher still would have creamed the opposition for the Driver's Championship that year, because he is was leagues ahead of the competition. Manufactured by the FIA perhaps, but the right names were on the right trophies by season's end if Benetton had been cheating.

The if-theory does make sense, but then how do you know he was/is indeed "leagues ahead the competition", if Benetton was actually cheating?

[WACKO]

Originally posted by Pinguin
Schumacher was clearly trying to out-psyche Hill. He passed Hill on the TWO parade laps, and didn't make an attempt to give back position to Hill asap.

Then ignoring the flags....

Yep, he clearly blasted past Hill. But I still find the way of punishment one of the all-time lows in the history of the sport concerning race control. I remember that black flag really came out of nowhere. Of course you don't expect it, but after all it looks that it was just a desperate move to get some more excitement in the championship. And it got even worse with the two-race-ban that followed for Michael. My suspicion is that they were aware of it all and therefore left the season cliffhanger for what it was. Three years later Michael would be heavily under criticism, but in Adelaide he got away with it.

[mikedeering]

How exactly did the black flag come out of nowhere? Schumacher was served with a 5 second penalty. He did not serve this penalty within in required 3 laps so was issued with a blackflag. Entirely consistent with the regulations.

The issue was how the officials arrived at the 5 second penalty and how they passed this information on to the Benetton team. That's where they were incompetent. The actual blackflag was fine - and had Benetton brought Schumacher in it would have been OK. Instead they (partially understandable) told Michael to stay out while they tried to talk to the officials. They should have brought him in as soon as the flag was displayed and worked out why he was flagged afterwards - you don't argue with race officials when the blackflag is out.

[Witt]

Originally posted by Big Block 8


The if-theory does make sense, but then how do you know he was/is indeed "leagues ahead the competition", if Benetton was actually cheating?

In 1994 it would have been realistic to debate schumacher's talent was in question due to the controversy surrounding the Benetton that year - and even that would have been a stretch considering his record in 92-93. However, he is now seven times a world champion. At least one of them would have been with a legal car.;)

Without getting into a debate about Schumacher's talent, his success in later years proved he is capable, and IMO, the best driver of the modern electronic formula (1990-present).

[HP]

Originally posted by Witt
However, he is now seven times a world champion.

6 times and in a good position for a seventh...

[Witt]

Originally posted by HP
6 times and in a good position for a seventh...

heh! I've seen such a red wash race after race i must have subconciously allowed for number seven!

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Witt

It makes sense that if (and i stress if) Benetton were caught with their pants down sometime during 1994, that exposing them for cheating would have been a catastrophe for F1's public image in the wake of Senna's death. The FIA looked to bring their hand down on Benetton for every little infraction they could because they couldn't ping them for the big one. In effect, the penalties for pithy reasons still cost Benetton the constructors championship that season.

Worse than that. Imagine the lawsuit against the FIA from Senna's family - he died trying to beat an illegal car...

The Berniemag certainly reported the 'let's-get-Benetton-for-poxy-infractions-cos-we-cannot-get-them-for-the-big-one' theory as fact.

Dunno if it would have been that easy for Schumi in 1994 had Senna lived...

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by Seat18E
The most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. IMO MS's suspension as a result was only a means to continue interest in the season which would have been over long before Adelaide.

Fact is that Schumacher passed Senna on the parade lap in Brazil and Aida. And I just noticed (from watching F1 Decade) that Damon Hill himself did the very same thing in either France or Canada.... I intended to post on it after watching the race but forgot.

Talk about either a total farce or double standard.

That's exactly how I saw it at the time. Didn't know wheter to cry or laugh. The FIA were so clumsy in those days when they wanted to spice up the show. These days of course they are much more sophisticated. Nowadays it's called one lap qualifying with race fuels, new points systems and parc ferme rules. All in the interest of the sport of course.

[NeilB]

The FIA were a bloddy joke in 1994, they said "Anyone caught cheating will face stiff penalties" Yet Mclaren and Benetton were caught cheating and all they got was a slap on the wrist. Larini dropped a clanger for Ferrari at Aida by saying something along the lines of "The car handled much better when the traction control kicked in" Forcing Ferrari to run around like headless chickens.

The FIA proved that year that they are nothing more then flim-flam men who change thier mind as much as most people change thier underwear.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Witt


In 1994 it would have been realistic to debate schumacher's talent was in question due to the controversy surrounding the Benetton that year - and even that would have been a stretch considering his record in 92-93. However, he is now seven times a world champion. At least one of them would have been with a legal car.;)

Without getting into a debate about Schumacher's talent, his success in later years proved he is capable, and IMO, .

I'm not saying it's not possible to have an individual, who can beat the opposition 7 times and more, but it's also equally possible that he's had the team, equipment and treatment, that have given him the necessary edge 7 times. Some of them even with legal cars.;)

I do agree that he's the best driver of the modern electronic formula (1990-present), but I'd still like to know his actual talent behind the wheel, forgetting the rest that makes the modern F1 what it is and in which he's (in) so very good (position).

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Witt


heh! I've seen such a red wash race after race i must have subconciously allowed for number seven!

That was my conscious conclusion after the race one, barring the possibility of serious injury, for what that possibility is nowadays worth.

[ferrari_forever]

I shall have to double check when I get home, but I am pretty sure I read in one of my books about MS that he was told by the team to stay out when he was served the penalty as they were arguing about it at the time, then when he was shown the black flag he was again told to stay out as it would be sorted by the team who were still trying to argue the validity of the penalty in the first place.

[Oho]

Originally posted by NeilB
The FIA were a bloddy joke in 1994, they said "Anyone caught cheating will face stiff penalties" Yet Mclaren and Benetton were caught cheating and all they got was a slap on the wrist. Larini dropped a clanger for Ferrari at Aida by saying something along the lines of "The car handled much better when the traction control kicked in" Forcing Ferrari to run around like headless chickens.

The FIA proved that year that they are nothing more then flim-flam men who change thier mind as much as most people change thier underwear.

Ave !!

Actually all teams that were scrutineered for "illegal" software in their ecus had such software present, I belive these teams were Ferrari, Williams, Benetton and McLaren, Benetton were unique however in having the illelegal features operational and active hidden under elaborate mecahnisms whilst the other teams had genuinely disabled them (perhaps by removing the entry points). Hence the defence that removing code could introduce new dormant flaws was not really avaibale to Benetton as it was to the others. This at least was the impression given in the report published by the FIA.

On the other hand McLarens semi automatic gear box was a fundamentally different case to Benettons LC. In McLarens case there was no argument over what Mclaren had done, they did indeed run a gear box with fully automatic upchange feature, but succesfully argued it was semi-automatic as opposed to fully automatic. The issue was whether what McLaren did, did break the rules or did it not. With Benetton the issue was inverse, Benetton was suspected of clearly violating the rules with the use of LC and TC but the FIA was unable (more like unwilling) to find proove they actually used the systems that without doubt were active, available and "illegal". Thus the case was whether Bentton did or did not commit actions which if commited would have been "illegal".

FIA made quite a precedent by subjecting technical regualtions to actual use and advantage gained, and techically should allow almost any software as conclusively prooving a piece of software ever branched through specific section is quite difficult. Its like saying print option in word processing program does not exist until used.

- Oho -

[FredF1]

1968.

1. The leading driver of his generation spears off the track in circumstances that are still being debated to this day.

2. His team is considered the most innovative one on the grid and is expected to cruise to the title.

3. The teams other driver, surname Hill, rallies the team together and goes on to win.

1994.

1. Ditto

2. Ditto

3. Di... Oops.

Well, the FIA did their best to ensure it would have beem 3 out of 3. But that pesky combination of Benetton and Schumacher didn't follow the script.

[jk]

Furthermore, the black flag was shown just after Woodcote. It was almost impossible to see if you didn't look hard, and of course Michael does not look hard for a black flag everytime he crosses the finish line.

I also think there was some doubt about the penalty. Benetton got a note saying "5 seconds penalty", and there of course though that 5 seconds would be added to Michaels race time. However FIA thought it was a 5 seconds stop-go penalty, and therefore black flagged Michael when he didn't serve his penalty.


Bad job by the officials, but of course Michael could just have held his place for the warm-up lap.

[JtP]

Originally posted by mikedeering
How exactly did the black flag come out of nowhere? Schumacher was served with a 5 second penalty. He did not serve this penalty within in required 3 laps so was issued with a blackflag. Entirely consistent with the regulations.

The issue was how the officials arrived at the 5 second penalty and how they passed this information on to the Benetton team. That's where they were incompetent. The actual blackflag was fine - and had Benetton brought Schumacher in it would have been OK. Instead they (partially understandable) told Michael to stay out while they tried to talk to the officials. They should have brought him in as soon as the flag was displayed and worked out why he was flagged afterwards - you don't argue with race officials when the blackflag is out.

The officials issued the penalty outside the time limit for issuing the penalty, thus technically it could not be applied. When the black flag was displayed as you point out, MS was told to stay out while the Benetton management argued with the race officials. The race when shown live actually had the discussion on camera and televised it, but without the sound.

The problem was, that if the penalty was served and then proved to be invalid, the decission could not later be reversed. A similar situation applies to JPM at Indy last year, he was given the stop and go for colliding with Barachello. Quite rightly imho as the incident was quite avoidable as JPM was deliberately on the grass with his front wheel alongside RB's rear and with little chance of overtaking even at the next corner. Because of the implications, the officials delayed the decission as long as possible while deciding what action to take. When applied, the penalty fell at the wrong time for JPM because of the rain. He then drove around in the huff for about 10 to 15 laps losing far more time than the inconvenient stop and he is still whining about the penalty to this day. Funnily enough, MS's first stop fell exactly wrong and he took on new drys and had to pit the following lap for wets, yet he won the race.

JPM's whining seems to have led to a suspension of penalties, they are now applied at the following race. So even giving JPM the benefit of the doubt over Monaco, I often wonder his reaction if he was taken out by a lapped car while in the lead. Where is the penalty for Canada after Nurburg and what was a clearly avoidable accident? Perhaps Max reckons JPM is going to score so few points anyway that he better not lose him anymore?

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by JtP
JPM's whining seems to have led to a suspension of penalties, they are now applied at the following race. So even giving JPM the benefit of the doubt over Monaco, I often wonder his reaction if he was taken out by a lapped car while in the lead. Where is the penalty for Canada after Nurburg and what was a clearly avoidable accident? Perhaps Max reckons JPM is going to score so few points anyway that he better not lose him anymore?

Did you not see Brazil 2001? If you want to see Monty's reaction to being taken out of the lead by a backmarker then it is clear there. He didn't rant - he just accepted it as one of those things. I don't think he hurled his helmet into his pit garage. Of course that was 2001 JPM, who was infinitely more calmer than the 2004 version.

I guess the stewards saw Nurburgring as a racing accident? As usual the stewards are inconsistent (or at least consistent only in their inconsistency?!) - compare Nurburgring 2004 to Malaysia 2002 and 2003.

Getting back to 1994 - I totally agree the stewards handled the penalty incorrectly - firstly taking for ever to announce it, then not clearly informing Benetton what form the penalty would take.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by JtP

So even giving JPM the benefit of the doubt over Monaco, I often wonder his reaction if he was taken out by a lapped car while in the lead.

Its already happened to him and he took it very well when Jos took him out.

[WACKO]

The crucial difference between JPM in Indy and MS at the time in Silverstone was that it was a bloody warm up lap! Technically it was prohibited indeed to pass in that lap, just to prevent a mess of cars passing each other and not being able to find their place on the grid properly. But as you saw later when Michael slowed the field in Monza 2000; the rule itself makes no sense, because for your pace you depend on the leader and the cars before you. Under this rule the leader can warm his own brakes and tyres but can force others to slow down or do exactly the same to create a gap to accelerate again. This is wrong as well.

[TEquiLA]

Clearly they were after the team and after Michael, Mika Häkkinen passed Jean Alesi's Ferrari in the first warm up lap too and nothing was done about that... But then again, that's 10 year old news, so why not kick this thread to the TNF, they'd love to have it there... NOT ;)

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Pinguin
Schumacher was clearly trying to out-psyche Hill. He passed Hill on the TWO parade laps, and didn't make an attempt to give back position to Hill asap.

Then ignoring the flags....

The thing that bothered me about the penalty was that I began to wonder how often this might have happened before and nothing was done about it. David Hobbs seemed to indicate that this was quite common in his time...

The way the penalty was applied was also a joke. There was no clarity over what the penalty was, and it really became a CART circus clown scenario. For the life of me, I do not understand how any official can think that what Michael did deserved a black flag and subsequent retirement from the race. It seems ludicrous to me.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by ehagar
For the life of me, I do not understand how any official can think that what Michael did deserved a black flag and subsequent retirement from the race. It seems ludicrous to me.

I assume by retirement you mean disqualification from the race. The point is he was not disqualified for the original infringement but for ignoring the black flag, which is clearly not ludicrous - many drivers have been disqualified from a race (and indeed banned from subsequent race(s)) for ignoring black flags.

As for passing on the parade lap - I am sure it has happened in the past without punishment. The point with MS at Silverstone was that it was clearly an attempt to to un-nerve Hill - it was no accident he passed him (twice). Secondly, there were enough rumours at the time regarding the legality or otherwise of the B194 that the FIA were going to pick up on any minor infringement by Schumacher and/or Benetton.

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by TEquiLA
Clearly they were after the team and after Michael, Mika Häkkinen passed Jean Alesi's Ferrari in the first warm up lap too and nothing was done about that... But then again, that's 10 year old news, so why not kick this thread to the TNF, they'd love to have it there... NOT ;)

This Thread was in fact moved from the Nostalgia forum to this forum!
Possibly because it involved a still active driver?



Henri Greuter

[FredF1]

Originally posted by mikedeering


I assume by retirement you mean disqualification from the race. The point is he was not disqualified for the original infringement but for ignoring the black flag, which is clearly not ludicrous - many drivers have been disqualified from a race (and indeed banned from subsequent race(s)) for ignoring black flags.

As for passing on the parade lap - I am sure it has happened in the past without punishment. The point with MS at Silverstone was that it was clearly an attempt to to un-nerve Hill - it was no accident he passed him (twice). Secondly, there were enough rumours at the time regarding the legality or otherwise of the B194 that the FIA were going to pick up on any minor infringement by Schumacher and/or Benetton.

Plus,

Flavio Briatore sent an open letter to the FIA accusing them of being out to get Benetton. Basically called for Max Mosely to be replaced. IIRC the letter was sent in the run up to the British GP.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by mikedeering


I assume by retirement you mean disqualification from the race. The point is he was not disqualified for the original infringement but for ignoring the black flag, which is clearly not ludicrous - many drivers have been disqualified from a race (and indeed banned from subsequent race(s)) for ignoring black flags.

How do you obey a black flag when you don't know what the penalty is?

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by ehagar


How do you obey a black flag when you don't know what the penalty is?

You think "blackflag?" Hmm, it's been a while since I attended racing school but I am pretty sure it means the officials of the meeting want a chat with me in the pits. Not in 10 laps time, not in 5 laps time. Now.

Regardless of the confusion around the 5 second penalty and how it was to be imposed, the black flag was clear - it means come into the pits. Now.

You don't need to know why you are being blackflagged - the penalty is irrelevant. Now had you asked whether Schumacher saw the flag or not...

[Schumirocks]

well all I can say is all this **** ain't happening anymore. That's a step up for the FIA that ole Bernie doesn't make decisions anymore. He can whine all he want but he can't do **** about it.