68 replies to this topic

[EvilPhil]

Having lightly followed ‘MotoGP’ since around 1993 and then picked up my interest again during the last three years it has become more and more apparent that the formula they have created is becoming a real threat to Formula One.

It reminds me of the ultra competitive Formula One we had in the late 80’s and early 90’s before PR and marketing started ruining the sport for good.

Unfortunately I have noticed particularly this year that the increased presence of manufactures in MotoGP has already brought about the similar foundations we have in F1 today that were starting to come about in 1994. For example the mention of sponsors has suddenly become more apparent.

So two questions really…. How many of you are starting to convert to MotoGP as your fix for top line motor racing and has anyone else noticed this trend of commercialism in MotoGP… if so how long can we appreciate real racers racing at proper speeds before they reduce engine size to 50cc powered by potato juice?

[RedIsTheColour]

No, not yet, probably never. There was close to $1.5 billion backing up the grid in Canada. As a racing spectacle MGP made F1 look very second hand though.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

No

[PhilKerr]

Whats the point in comparing the 2 series one has 2 wheels and the other has 4 wheels. no point trying to compare them

[boyRacer]

Apples... oranges.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Motorcycle racing has always been more exciting than F1.
Different vehicle dynamics make such a thing happen.
What would make anyone think that "now" would make MotoGP anymore more a real threat to Formula One than anytime before anyways?

[prettyface]

At least in my inmediate environment, more people are watching MotoGP than F1. It's probably the other way around everywhere else in the country; but the impression you get is that only the Ferrari fans are watching all the qualis and races. Granted, there are a lot of Ferrari fans; so maybe that's not so bad.

[D. Heimgartner]

Utter domination by a "win at all costs" team; terrible rules regulations by an inept sanctioning body; utter greed and selfish ness by all involved; terrible tracks and worse cars.

Yup, if you think about it, lots of things are going against F1.

I had more fun today watching MotoGP than the entire F1 schedule to date. Anyone who doesn't shout himself hoarse at those 2 wheel powerslides....

[AndreasF1]

@ D.Heimgartner

I dont find myself agreeing with you alot, but on this one you are dead on. F1 pales in comparison to the action that MotoGP provides.

[Pioneer]

Moto who?

[Doug Nye]

A friend's 8 year-old son watched today's Moto GP open-mouthed and utterly spellbound, leaning with Gibernau and Rossi through the sweeps and turns - he was bored after the first ten minutes of the Canadian GP and went off to do something he found more amusing.

The 73-year old lady behind the counter in our local corner shop was an avid Formula 1 fan until about three years ago....always asking if I'd seen the Grand Prix, what about that Michael Schumacher, isn't that young man Barrichello a nice boy, etc etc....????

Now every Monday morning it's "Ooh did you see that wonderful young Eye-talian Doctor Rossi yesterday Mr Nye....ooh I think they're so clever those young men, and SOOO brave...".

She says she can't bear to miss a Moto GP these days - but is frankly bored to tears by Formula 1...and flicks through the channels to see if the tin-tops or especially the motorcycling is on...

They had it all in their own hands...but major-league motorcycle racing seems simply more telegenic these days. And there's tangible respect and warrior nobility between the two-wheeled competitors which I remember well from four-wheeled racing...but from days now long gone by.

DCN

[FrankB]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
A friend's 8 year-old son watched today's Moto GP open-mouthed and utterly spellbound, leaning with Gibernau and Rossi through the sweeps and turns

Going OT - a friend of my, a lifelong biker and fan of motorcycle racing had recently bought his young son his first pedal bike, complete with stabilisers. Young Richard wanted to go out without his stabilisers, 'like the big boys', but his Dad said the stabilisers had to stay for the time being so that he wouldn't fall off.

A week or so later, father and son were watching a motorcycle GP on the TV, the racing taking place in an absolute downpour, resulting in many riders coming off.

Richard turned to his Dad and said "I know why they keep falling off... it's because they haven't got their stabilisers on"


When we get to see the MotoGP (we missed it today), MrsB is almost always on the edge of the chair in excitement, something that rarely happens when F1 is on.

[masterhit]

Moto GP has always been better than F1, though I love both.

[AndreasNystrom]

Only exciting in F1 was the qualify, but on silverstone it will change

MotoGP is the best racing you can currently watch!.
I think some of the factors is that you we wont probably see stronger engines in MotoGP,
cause the engines are too strong these days anyway, that you only get wheelspin if they would
be.
We dont have any pitstops or refuelling that will make the race boring.
We dont have aero-devices, so the cornerspeed is limited to the little grip of the tires.
Since we dont have any pitstops, the drivers have to try to adjust to the grip of the
tires all the time, that only gets less and less.

and we have Valentino Rossi, Max Biaggi, Sete Gibernau, Capirossi, Alex Barros, Carlos Checa,
Marco Melandri etc

[madmac]

I've followed 500 GP's for longer than I've follwed F1. For all the reasons stated above moto GP is way more exciting, there is passing, aero is not the deciding factor, they use slicks, there are no pit stops, tyre degridation over a race is a factor, they have personalities in bucketfulls & the grid is bigger, FFS they even have wildcards. Basically I'm saying its great. I think the appeal of F1 on the other hand is that it's thats much harder to win in. As for Moto GP becoming underpowered etc, I'm torn on that, its is dangerous and people still get killed & seriously injured. I means its not uncommon in a season to see god knows how many broken limbs/ribs/collarbones etc which just makes the riders all the more heroic in my mind.

Oh yeah & tottally off topic why is it the the U.S. can produce so many great bike riders but can't get a guy into F1?

[917k]

''It reminds me of the ultra competitive Formula One we had in the late 80’s and early 90’s before PR and marketing started ruining the sport for good.''


There were a few 'boring as hell'' seasons in that era,as well.Bike racing has always been better,spectacle wise and always will be.

Anyone looking to get the same thing out of F1 as they get out of Moto GP is really looking for something that isn't there.

I watch both,I love both yet I don't bother to compare.You could say the IRL race in texas was the best thing going[I would disagree]but it is a matter a what a certain formula,or track,or equipment will yield.

[Nasty McBastard]

ive been on the gp bikes bandwagon for aslong as i can remember......

funny thing is, for some reason, im losing alot of interest in the series lately.

still love my 125's and 250's, but the top class......meh....

its not a million miles away from f1 really...sure.. theres actually racing for position, but really....before a race starts, and assuming its not a wierd race with accidents or rain, theres no more guys in for a shot at a win than in f1.

its rossi, sete and max.....and you can drop one of those three when talking about the title.


whats REALLY sad about last nights races, was that i watched and enjoyed BOTH WSBK races, and yet i found myself channel hopping during the motoGP race to watch an old doco on F1 id seen before...

[gerry nassar]

MotoGP is certainly much more exciting than F1 is at the moment. But that comes down to alot of the regulations and one teams domination. 2003 and Monaco GP show that when F1 works - its damn fine - but yeah MotoGP is far ahead in terms of entertainment. This was the first Canadian GP i didnt stay up for or wake up for - i just recorded it and watched it in the morning (public holiday thankfully). Im glad i didnt stay up for it.

[boyRacer]

MotoGP is a better spectacle no doubt about that... but i still don't know why people are comparing the two.

I have been a Rossi fan since his aprilia days... and it seemed like the bandwagon train just came in at the right time... Rossi leaves his dominating Honda to make the sort of racing we have been seeing possible... and Ferrari are driving fans and Ferrari-haters alike in hopelessness because of their domination.

[LB]

Thing is even when Rossi was dominating it was wonderful to watch, Michael just isn't.

[gerry nassar]

Originally posted by LB
Thing is even when Rossi was dominating it was wonderful to watch, Michael just isn't.

Exactly.

I think its because there seems to be more driver/rider input in motogp than in F1 which the best car wins most of the time. In fairness to MS - his input in a lesser car in the late 90s was more enjoyable to watch - more similar to Rossi now.

[AndreasF1]

The current MotoGP season reminds me of 1993 when Senna was fighting against Prost in his inferior McLaren and walked away leading the WDC after 5 races.

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by LB
Thing is even when Rossi was dominating it was wonderful to watch, Michael just isn't.

If the Schumi's nearest competitor would be between 0.0 and 0.5 seconds behind for a whole race, I think even Michael would be fun to watch ;)
Likewise, if Rossi would be half a lap in front of the nearest rival, people would cheer less.

Maybe more important - a bike moves around a lot, it is easy to see that what the MotoGP riders are doing on the track is nothing that a mere mortal would ever want to even try, let alone manage. While watching F1 on the other hand, every other armchair expert thinks that they would do a better job than half the field of current drivers.
They are wrong of course, but they don't know that.

[RX-7]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
Motorcycle racing has always been more exciting than F1.
Different vehicle dynamics make such a thing happen.
What would make anyone think that "now" would make MotoGP anymore more a real threat to Formula One than anytime before anyways?

[AlexS]

People forget so fast...which is good for F1... I remember when Mick Doohan won lots of races in 500cc was boring as hell, worst than F1 , no strategies no pits no nothing.

And motos are not so aesthetical pleasing like cars( at least is very much more dificult to diferenciate) IMO. I like to see the details and an F1 car has many more than a bike.

At that time 250cc was and probably still is the most fun to watch. 125cc fails because aesthetical seem like toys.


One thing that motoGP have (have not seen last races) is that doesnt have idiots as TV directors as F1 does.

The Canada transmission was a disaster once again...

[SlateGray]

Has MotoGP finally surpassed F1 as the premier motor sport?

IMHO, No it has not. And it never will. The very simple reason is car drivers out number riders by a factor over 100:1 (In Canada) so naturally people have a better understanding of cars.

I am a die hard Motorcycle enthusiast and I still watch all of the F1 races and only some, but not all, of the Moto GP events. Go figure.

[tienlm]

never!!!

[Daniel Lester]

The best thing about the bikes is you can see what the drivers are doing and how skilled they are, for all we know MS in a car is as good as Rossi on a bike but we can't see it.

Although I think bikes benefit from being so narrow, almost impossible to defend position down a straight. F1 could learn a lesson, slicks, less aero, and larger braking zones.

Incredible to think F1 is 30 seconds a lap faster when you see how quick the bikes are.

[Fidgey]

Originally posted by MrSlow

If the Schumi's nearest competitor would be between 0.0 and 0.5 seconds behind for a whole race, I think even Michael would be fun to watch ;)
Likewise, if Rossi would be half a lap in front of the nearest rival, people would cheer less.

Nope thats not it. Even when Rossi was kicking arse last year I loved it and wanted more. With Rossi most people love the man's personality and charisma as well as his talent. Schumacher is often respected in F1 circles by the fans but not liked. Once upon a time he was liked by the majority but not anymore. Will that happen to Rossi. No, I don't think so.

[D. Heimgartner]

I put forth the motion to have AtlasfF1 changed to AtlasMotoGP!

[checkonetwo]

compared to motogp f1 is a wate of time. i have just decided with some friends that this year instead of f1 in budapest we`ll be in brno for the bikes. alot cheaper and alot better entertainment.

mind you, those people overtake ON THE TRACK !!!

so, to answer the question raised here: yes.

[AdrianM]

No doubting it is gaining popularity. Just look at this forum. There are three threads discussing the race in Barca. Daryl Beattie was saying he has never had so many people come up to him wanting to talk about the races. The effort of Vale and co is so obvious. Sliding the rears, the late breaking etc. And the danger and risks involved are so very real. You can't deny the increased interest. I doubt it will ever pass the popularity of F1 but if F1 doesn't change its way then MotoGP will become more of a rival. There is no bullshit about it and people sick of political infighthing, the arrogance of F1's top brass, fuel loads etc and just want to see real racing will switch on to MotoGP. Yes it is very political but you cannot deny that all riders (except the WCM guys) really deserve their spot on the grid. One cannot say the same about F1. If MotoGP can learn from the misatkes of F1 it has a very bright future.

[OssieFan]

I think it depends on each person's definition of 'premier motor sport'.

[Schuperman]

MotoGP and F1 are two different forms of racing. I enjoy both very much. MotoGP is about daring and spectacular overtakings maneuveres and less critical thinking. F1 is more about strategies due to pitstops. It was, is and will always hard to overtake in F1, in some tracks it is almost impossible, IMO due to the size, tyres and of the car.

If I have to choose between the two, I would go for F1.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by gerry nassar

I think its because there seems to be more driver/rider input in motogp than in F1 which the best car wins most of the time...

DING DING DING We have a winner.

1. Ban electronic gearboxes.

2. Ban telemetry.

3. Ban traction control.

4. Ban pooters.

Have them all in sportscar racing for street legal 2 seaters, by all means, but get F1 back to a racing series.

[JtP]

"Ferrari is so full of ****. Their records are lies. Just remember who is releasing the times.Williams or Montoya have not even shown their full speed yet. Come Melbourne, Juan will change up a couple of gears & it will be over for everyone else. -dan2k"

Should that not read "Juan will change up a couple of gears & it will be into the back of someone else"

As for MotoGP, the thing that has really livened it up is Rossi swapping to Yamaha. Remember 2 years ago with Rossi being the only guy with a Honda and only Biaggi struggling with the Yamaha able to consider giving him a race, before Max fell off?

I personally found it amusing when prerace Schwantz said "Rossi would have finished 5th in my day" and I'm a Schwantz fan.

[bigbrickz]

I've been an F1 fan for the past 20+ years. I started watching MotoGP 2 years ago. Watching a MotoGP race gives me goosebumps. I don't think I remember a boring race. Even last year when Rossi was pretty much dominant there was always a number of great battles down the field. Perhaps it's the novelty.

I vaguely remember F1 races giving me goosebumps, as did the old qualy format. Maybe I've become bored old person who enjoys complaining and F1 has always been like this. However in a recent BBCWorld interview Max seemed to feel the same way. There was also a thread here with a year-by-year analysis of on track passing showing a clear drop since the '80s.

When I watch a motoGP race (and more and more 125 and 250) I'm glued to the screen, jumping up and down and scaring the cat. When I watch an F1 race (and I regularly miss them nowadays) I'm generally doing something else on the computer with the f1.com live timing in a corner providing more interesting feedback than the TV.

I'm still somewhat interested in the outcome: "will BAR and Renault manage to reel in Ferrari", "will Mclaren recover from this ridiculous situation", "who will drive for williams next year", etc. But watching the races doesn't seem to bring much added value over reading a 3 paragraph race summary.

[Fidgey]

Even though F1 and Motogp are two different series they are still there to provide entertainment.
If we use entertainment as a KPI then motogp is winning in spades. I will not give up on F1 but the most important thing is, Will the sponsors give up on F1 and go to Motogp instead?

[Cypher]

Originally posted by JtP
I personally found it amusing when prerace Schwantz said "Rossi would have finished 5th in my day" and I'm a Schwantz fan.

I think he later in a BBC interview when asked about this also said something along the lines of that it was actually more of a hope Rossi would finish 5th to him and the other three former top guys at the press conference but joked that Rossi might have beaten them all anyway.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by JtP


I personally found it amusing when prerace Schwantz said "Rossi would have finished 5th in my day" and I'm a Schwantz fan.

Its hard to compare, thee early 90s seem like a lifetime ago. It was a golden period for two stroke racing, and in my opinion, had more genius level riders than today.

[Jack Rabbit]

In terms of entertaiment, adrenaline, excitment, and fun: yes!
Also, the moto drivers are more at risk and are more of a factor in the outcome of the race than in f1. I still like f1, but mostly because I grew up with it. I dont think if I tuned in my first f1 race this year I'd be very interested in tuning in any more. The same isnt true of moto.


50cc engines and potato juice
cheers!

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by madmac
Oh yeah & tottally off topic why is it the the U.S. can produce so many great bike riders but can't get a guy into F1?

Culture, I'm from southern cali and on any weekend I can take hundred mile long rides through nothing but backroad canyons. My father lives in Georgia(USA) and the roads, and bike culture there is as strong as it is here in Cali, our wheather is way better though. Look at where the majority of riders come from, countries with good weather. Spain, USA, Oz, Italy

[Spunout]

"Its hard to compare, thee early 90s seem like a lifetime ago. It was a golden period for two stroke racing, and in my opinion, had more genius level riders than today."

Interesting. Moto GP - despite of much bigger talent pool and more training "old riders" from early 90s were better than current ones. F1 - despite of much bigger talent pool and more training "old drivers" from early 90s were better than current ones.

And you can bet your a** ten years from now everyone will say Rossi, Gibernau, Schumacher, Räikkönen were better than top guys of 2014 ;)

[wati]

Originally posted by EvilPhil


So two questions really…. How many of you are starting to convert to MotoGP as your fix for top line motor racing and has anyone else noticed this trend of commercialism in MotoGP… if so how long can we appreciate real racers racing at proper speeds before they reduce engine size to 50cc powered by potato juice?

Moto GP is the top of motorcycle racing, but not the top of motor racing. That will always be F1. Also the technology of a motorbike is far more simpla than that of F1 car. The only bike that comes close to F1 (technology wise) is Aprillia with it's pneumatic valve engine and drive by wire. But that bike is slow.

Wattie

[luisfelipetrigo]

Getting back to the original question ...
... and speaking from the situation as it stands in Mexico ...
NO, moto gp has not surpassed F1.
For that matter (again, from Mexico point of view) moto gp has not surpassed any form of car racing, not even formula vee or Renault Clio cup.

I am not sure about the rest of Latin America, but I think it might be the same.
In these countries the use of motorcycles is not as common as it is in Europe, as a result there are no major races or major interes in this form of racing.
Whating MotoGP on TV surely has created some fans, but I doubt there is anyone that prefers it versus F1.

I hope somo of our friends in Latin America comment on this.

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by ehagar


Its hard to compare, thee early 90s seem like a lifetime ago. It was a golden period for two stroke racing, and in my opinion, had more genius level riders than today.

Agree: Doohan, Lawson, Rainey, Spencer, Schwantz, KR Sr., Gardner, Mamola, are IMHO better than the "Monkey Man"

Problem is that VR is in a weak field while those mentioned above all raced against one and other to some dergee or another.

As for others that where better VR:

AGO
Mike the Bike.
Joey Dunlop. (The best Motorcycle road racer in the history of the world, RIP Joey)
Barry Sheen.

[DamattaSpeed]

Lots of good comments in this thread, I will also add that the Moto GP personalities are so much more interesting than the F1 group.

Sete's podium comments last year in the race he won after Kato died is still the most impressive thing I have ever heard from an athlete under such circumstances.

One gets the sense that even if Vale were not the the supreme winner that any of the other riders would represent equally as well (dare I say, even Max).

[AdrianM]

Originally posted by DamattaSpeed
Lots of good comments in this thread, I will also add that the Moto GP personalities are so much more interesting than the F1 group.

Sete's podium comments last year in the race he won after Kato died is still the most impressive thing I have ever heard from an athlete under such circumstances.

One gets the sense that even if Vale were not the the supreme winner that any of the other riders would represent equally as well (dare I say, even Max).

Yeah Sete is a class guy. Interesting to see an interview with Nakano after his accident and he was saying that during the accident he thought about Kato and his crash. Scary stuff.
Also another thing about MotoGP that F1 seriously lacks is an appreciation of its past. Look at the weekend. We had Doohan , Rainey, Crivelle, Schwantz etc holding that press conference discussing the sports past and present, Rossi's tribute to Barry Sheene at the Aust. GP and when the riders stood in the rain at PI watching Mick Doohan riding on of Barry's bikes.
When was the last time F1 did anything like this outside of the PR stuff. Also when you look at stuff like what F1 is doing in London, it is something MotoGP has done before like in Barca this year. Hope F1 adopts more stuff like this like the Day of Champions

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Spunout
"Its hard to compare, thee early 90s seem like a lifetime ago. It was a golden period for two stroke racing, and in my opinion, had more genius level riders than today."

Interesting. Moto GP - despite of much bigger talent pool and more training "old riders" from early 90s were better than current ones. F1 - despite of much bigger talent pool and more training "old drivers" from early 90s were better than current ones.

And you can bet your a** ten years from now everyone will say Rossi, Gibernau, Schumacher, Räikkönen were better than top guys of 2014 ;)

Read the list Slategray provided. Those guys raced against each other. Genius level riders. One passed the torch along to another. For F1 types it is like Senna versus Prost over and over again.

Then in 1993 a dark period fell on GP racing. The reigning World Championship crashed and was in for the battle of his life. Kevin Schwantz wasn't the same ever again and retired because he didn't care anymore. Doohan took over and GP racing became dull. Sort of like how MS makes GP racing boring right now. People (such as myself) started watching Superbike instead... two-stroke racing was dying.

There were brief hopes that a young rider would upset the apple cart (Max Biaggi), but it never really materialized. Then one day the king crashed.

It would have been something to have seen Doohan versus Rossi. It is a pity we never got to see it.

[AndreasNystrom]

some more things i enjoy about motogp-weekends is that they usually show some techstuff about
the motogp-bikes, and some expert from the teams explains how it works, and why they use it,
what you could also use etc.

ive seen alot of cool tech-explanations, like how the clutch works on the 4strokes, and why
they need one cause of the enginebraking that was absent on the 2strokes.

one thing i remember was the telemetry, where they showed lots of graphs, about the bike,
everything from basic things like revs, to suspension etc.. and front vs rearwheelspeed (which
shows how much the reartire is slipping.. and the graph showed that they had wheelspin up to 300km/h with ease...

what more.. the difference between 2strokes injection.. different reeds etc.
why they use one on that bike, and another on the other.. etc.

you never see the F1-teams explain how their new suspension works.. like yesterdays
motogp coverage

ok, maybe its more basic then a F1-car, but still very interesting.

and i also like that they show each class of motogp, instead of just F1.. why not
show F3000 and so on also?.

In MotoGP we can follow a guy thru his start in 125cc, and up to motogp-class (like with rossi)
or now with marco melandri!.

About the drivers vs the riders.
Well, i cant acuse M.Schumacher of having charisma. He looks bored on the pressconferanses,
and he talks like someone had died
in MotoGP, not only Rossi gives something away to their fans, or the reporters. Its easy
to like these guys!.

Thank good we have Sato in F1, yeah he is a "danger" to others maybe, but F1 isnt about
driving carefully around eachother.
If MotoGP guys can do sato-moves, why cant F1-guys do it? they are even protected
by a cage of carbonfibre.
maybe the costs of the cars are way too high to allow them todo a dare-move