21 replies to this topic

[jimm]

ON Fri we talked to Steve Matchett from Speed TV. We asked him questions about Benneton in the glory days. While we did not ask about the different cheating rumors because we wanted him to keep talking to us (not like he would be truthful anyway), we asked about Herbert's claim that he could not see MS's data. He says that is crap. Steve was Herberts mechanic and sayed they frequently got the settings and compared data from MS's car.

WHile I can see why he would not be forthcomming about cheating if they where I see no reason to not be honest about the Herbert thing, especially given the known history at Ferrari of teamorders.

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by jimm
frequently

Oh ya! 2 or 3 sets of data per season and well after the revelant races are over is always very helpful.

[jimm]

Originally posted by SlateGray


Oh ya! 2 or 3 sets of data per season and well after the revelant races are over is always very helpful.

He did not qualify it that way. He said that the data was open the whole year.

I am not a MS fan, as a matter of fact I tend to be the opposite but what does he have to gain by lying about this?

[Arrow]

From what ive read,herbert was denied access for a while then was given back access when he was "no longer a threat".
Hes just a whiny wanker anyway.

[bira]

If you do a search on the BB for Matchett AND Herbert and select "show results as posts" you will find several posts on the BB with quotes from Matchett on this very topic.

This has been discussed extensively in threads like Michael will never face an equal teammate and Why wont current drivers face MS in equal cars and Rubens as good as Schumi. That's just to name a few.

You might want in particular to read http://forums.atlasf...bert#post962120 -- where umapathypon brings an extensive excerpt from Matchett's book, on this very topic.

So I don't know that this rumour will be put to rest by starting yet another thread and repeating things that have already been said, debated, and argued over.

Have a ball anyway

[jimm]

Originally posted by bira
If you do a search on the BB for Matchett AND Herbert and select "show results as posts" you will find several posts on the BB with quotes from Matchett on this very topic.

This has been discussed extensively in threads like Michael will never face an equal teammate and Why wont current drivers face MS in equal cars and Rubens as good as Schumi. That's just to name a few.

You might want in particular to read http://forums.atlasf...bert#post962120 -- where umapathypon brings an extensive excerpt from Matchett's book, on this very topic.

So I don't know that this rumour will be put to rest by starting yet another thread and repeating things that have already been said, debated, and argued over.

Have a ball anyway

Sorry if I bring up the past but I thought it was worth a try. I am one of MS's critics but someone also interested in the truth. This is one of the comments that has been made and after talking with Steve, I am convenced it was false.

As for Herbert, I think he is bitter because he knows that had he not had the accident in F3000, life might have been much different. I like Johnny and thought he was going to do better compared to MS. Maybe if his legs were better he would have. I think what made this things easier to believe were comments made by MS during that season like "it is not reasonible for a driver like Johnny to be expected to do as well as me" etc. Sounded nasty and like it could be happening.

[Ross Stonefeld]

He's a fairly typical racing driver, the fault always lies with someone else.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by jimm


As for Herbert, I think he is bitter because he knows that had he not had the accident in F3000, life might have been much different. I like Johnny and thought he was going to do better compared to MS. Maybe if his legs were better he would have. I think what made this things easier to believe were comments made by MS during that season like "it is not reasonible for a driver like Johnny to be expected to do as well as me" etc. Sounded nasty and like it could be happening.

Hes very very bitter.I was reading an editorial of his from a few years ago and he directly states how that accident took away from what might have been.Apparently in the late 80s he was being touted as the next jim clark and that accident killed all that off.
Probably just an excuse though.

[karlth]

In one of the threads mentioned by bira there is a quote by Michael Schumacher where he explains why Herbert wasn't allowed to view his telemetry.

[Thunder]

Originally posted by jimm
ON Fri we talked to Steve Matchett from Speed TV. We asked him questions about Benneton in the glory days. While we did not ask about the different cheating rumors because we wanted him to keep talking to us (not like he would be truthful anyway), we asked about Herbert's claim that he could not see MS's data. He says that is crap. Steve was Herberts mechanic and sayed they frequently got the settings and compared data from MS's car.

WHile I can see why he would not be forthcomming about cheating if they where I see no reason to not be honest about the Herbert thing, especially given the known history at Ferrari of teamorders.

Dont take those hypocrites seriously and dont descent to teir level.

In one hand they will try to use the fact that Irvine outqualified MS in the first race as one of their proofs but they will never let you know that MS has been faster than him every outing bar qualifying, and that MS had to use his spare car which hadnt the latest spec engine on it.

As a second sample they try to show 98 brake affair of Mclaren as a FIA bias towards Ferrari. Again they will never let you know that FIA didnt allow to use the same device when Ferrari wanted to use it before the season start.

And zillion more sample.

But we should understand them. They are a fun of a driver. What ever their driver do he will not equal Michael Schumacher's achivements. Since their driver will not reach the same level of Schumacher they must belittle Schuamacher's achivements. So like small kids they lie to themselves and believe it then. Hence their NEED TO BASH.

[Megatron]

The one problem with Steve is that he continues to bring up Spa 1994 every other race.

I get the feeling he is tired of the cheating rumors. True or not.

No body quite jacked up a car quite like Steve...

I think it would be very difficult to say the Benetton 194 was a legal car. That doesn't mean that Ferrari's "rev limiter" in Pacific or any other car was legal that year or this year.

The team's job is to find a way to victory. That doesn't always mean to hunt through the pages of the rule book. Those that win never get caught, those that are caught are forever branded cheaters in whatever they do.

I did like his comment on Alesi's first test with the B195 (or B195B or whater the interim car was before 1996), Steve mentioned that Jean basically through up his hands and said he couldn't get anything out of it.

I think Berger crashed two or three times in his first tests with the team, didn't he? Perhaps that says somethign about Schumacher AND Herbert.

[Thunder]

Briatore summed it up best in Bira's interview, tee-shirt makers demolishing the big boys were too much to digest fro formula one. they had to find an excuse.

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by Megatron
No body quite jacked up a car quite like Steve...

[Megatron]

The problem with comparing anyone to Schuamcher at Benetton is that there really isn't a HUGE arugment for Herbert.

1991- Compares very well against outgoing Nelson Piquet

1992 - Outscoures, but doesn't embarrass Martin Brundle

1993- OK, he creamed Patrase but Ricardo was well past his sell by date and I think most knew it. Still, it wasn't a sort of Senna VS Dumfries thing where one driver nearly wins the title, the other scores enough points to count on one finger

1994- This gets messy. Letho breaks his neck in the late hours of a Silverstone test. Rookie Verstappen thrown, then throw up, way up, in Brazil. Then Letho comes back...too soon...replaced again by Verstappen as the team try to win the constructors title. Jos gets on fire but becomes great friends with Schumacher and has nothing but great things to say. Herbert thrown in at Japan and Aussie in a desperate attempt to help Schumacher in the drivers title and the constructors title...

1995-?

I don't have a doubt that Johnny and Michael were Senna and Berger, but results wise Johnny had the best year of his career. He may not have gotten the absolute 100% best every time, but I can't believe he was miles behind.

Also, I can remember the rumors that Steve Matchet was offered millions upon millions of dollars to be Ferrari's jackman when he quit Benetton. After years of arching his back in just the right position, Steve had had enough and turned down the very high proflie role that is the jackman to write books. One can only wonder how much success Ferrari would have had sooner if only Steve had taken up Ferrari's offer... (It could be April 1st...)

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by Arrow


Hes very very bitter.I was reading an editorial of his from a few years ago and he directly states how that accident took away from what might have been.Apparently in the late 80s he was being touted as the next jim clark and that accident killed all that off.
Probably just an excuse though.

An excuse? Do you have any idea how good Herbert was before his accident? Go and look at the F3000 results from that period and the people he didn't just beat, but thrashed. That accident nerely cost Herbert his feet, let alone his career. Of course it affected his driving, you are aware he had to be carried to his car on his F1 debut?

As excuses go Arrow, it's a damn good one.

[Megatron]

Very true. I believe he basically had a Williams contract before the big accident didn't he?

He was very, very good. And still is.

There is a big difference between being a guy who blames everyone for everything and being a guy who is geuninly ticked off and for good reason.

Herbert might qualify for 1 for 1995 but he has good reason to be ticked off for an accident that could have ended his life, much less his career.

[BorderReiver]

I'm fairly certain that Benetton didn't adhear to his contract either, as regarding testing, spare cars etc.

He had every right to be peeved in '95. But anyone who calls Johnny Herbert "bitter" is making a contradiction in terms, or simply doesn't pay any attention. It isn't for nothing he was called the Laughing Cavalier. A sunnier and more optomistic bloke you couldn't hope to meet, despite the numerous kicks in the teeth his career gave him. You obviously never heard his post-retirement interviews after the mechanical DNF's that blighted his later career. Never a bad word about anyone, or a morose moment. Not the best driver in the world certainly, but one of the best men.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Michael Schumacher had nothing to do with the accident of 1988 or any lack of performance since.

[Deepak]

I think the accident though a big reason why herbert did not perform to his abilities it is not the complete reason. The real reason is that he let it affect him
One has to just look a few year back to realise the horrific crash of mika hakkinen which nearly ended his career and yet came back to win 2WCs.
Second example of Rubens who had that huge crash in Imola i think and yet is able to push MS quite a bit.
History of most motorsport drivers is writ with accident but the ones who dealt with it the best came out on top.

Look at MS after his leg break in silverstone. Hasnt he actually just become stronger. I can remember countless guys if one goes back into the whole history of formula 1.

I think and its also well proved that Herbert just dint deal with this in the right way.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by Thunder
Briatore summed it up best in Bira's interview, tee-shirt makers demolishing the big boys were too much to digest fro formula one. they had to find an excuse.

My first impression when I read that is that it was a cheap throwaway line by Flav to further his own agenda.

Toleman was bought by Benetton in 1986(?) and has been around the block awhile doing reasonably well with a few wins since 1990. They have firmly established themselves as one of the better teams in the pitlane then (with a works engine for a long time) - why would it be that much of a culture shock and embarassment to the establishment if they were to win a championship with a star in the making (then) such as Michael Schumacher?

[bira]

Originally posted by Racer Joe


My first impression when I read that is that it was a cheap throwaway line by Flav to further his own agenda.

Toleman was bought by Benetton in 1986(?) and has been around the block awhile doing reasonably well with a few wins since 1990. They have firmly established themselves as one of the better teams in the pitlane then (with a works engine for a long time) - why would it be that much of a culture shock and embarassment to the establishment if they were to win a championship with a star in the making (then) such as Michael Schumacher?

Because Formula One is also a marketing execrise, and when names like 'McLaren' and 'Williams' that are identified with motor racing excellence are beatne by a name like 'Benetton' which is identified with making t-shirts, it's a marketing embarassment. It was not the Toleman name that won a Championship. For 99% of the people, it means absolutely nothing that this team used to be Toleman just as no one today would associate BAR with Tyrrell.

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by Deepak
I think the accident though a big reason why herbert did not perform to his abilities it is not the complete reason. The real reason is that he let it affect him
One has to just look a few year back to realise the horrific crash of mika hakkinen which nearly ended his career and yet came back to win 2WCs.
Second example of Rubens who had that huge crash in Imola i think and yet is able to push MS quite a bit.
History of most motorsport drivers is writ with accident but the ones who dealt with it the best came out on top.

Look at MS after his leg break in silverstone. Hasnt he actually just become stronger. I can remember countless guys if one goes back into the whole history of formula 1.

I think and its also well proved that Herbert just dint deal with this in the right way.

You can't reasonably compare Herbert's injuries with Schumacher's or Barrichello's injuries (a mere broken nose and concussion, though he may well have choked to death on his tongue if Sid hadn't been there), we are in a whole different league with Herbert. I'll post up a video of the accident at some point and you can see for yourself.

Hakkinen on the other hand is a similar case, and perhaps the exception to the rule (along with Niki Lauda).

History is writ with motorsports accidents, it is NOT replete with men who came back from them to succeed at the highest level, Lauda, Hakkinen and Herbert are amongst the few. There are tiny numbers of driver's who have come back from serious (and I don't mean leg breaking) accidents to race at a higher level than they did before.

Consider this, Herbert suffered very similar levels of injury to Didier Pironi. In Pironi's case they finished his F1 career, and that is no slur on Pironi, it's just the nature of the crash made it more difficult for him to control a racing car. In Herbert's case he started his F1 career while still carrying the F3000 injuries, is it little wonder he never reached his full potential? How did he not deal with it in the right way? Gritting his teeth and carrying on is about all he could do. He did not have access to the first class care that Schumacher had after Silverstone, in 1988 very few people outside motorsport had heard of Johnny Herbert, and at that stage in his career he is unlikely to have been able to afford first class medical services. NHS for him. How could he have dealt with it any better?

Countless examples of F1 drivers coming back from potentially fatal/crippling injuries and becoming stronger? I challenge you to list 5, Hakkinen, Lauda . . . .

The other side is littered with them, serious accidents ruined the careers of Pironi, Parkes, Brambilla, Stommelen . . . . I could go on.