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#1 man

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 09:49

Does anybody know of a website that can inform me of the history of the Crystal Palace circuit and the actual layout? Of course, your opinons are also welcome!

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#2 Darren Galpin

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:28

Start with http://www.silhouet....s/crystalp.html.

#3 man

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:45

Also found this link:

http://www.bmrc.co.u...ps/cpalace.html

Images of Crystal Palace in 2001

http://www.teamewr.c...ystalpalace.htm

#4 RTH

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 13:01

I attended the last (or last but one ) ever meeting at Crystal Palace in 1972 as a guest of Alfa Romeo and drove one of their cars in a parade around the track , that was a very sad day knowing it was to close for ever.

#5 HEROS

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 13:30

Hello man,

Here is another link about Crystal Palace with pics :

http://gplea.racesim...o/cpretro2.html

:|

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 13:34

I was there too ...

This Crystal Palace pictures thread might be of interest. Mention is made there of Philip Parfitt's book Racing Round the Palace - I believe a new edition of that is due in the autumn.

Thanks for the link to that Images in 2001 page, BTW: I thought that had disappeared!

#7 RAP

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 19:41

The various links that have been provided give a good over view of motor sport at Crystal Palace but its history in motor sport goes right back to the earliest days. The May 2004 issue of Motor Sport draws attention to the fact that the Crystal Palace cycle racing track was, like many others, used by pioneer motorcycles for races. However, on 8th April 1901 a 1 mile race for cars was held on the banked oval. Mr Boddy suggests that this was probably the first true race for cars in Great Britain. A further event was held on 27th April over 350 yards although whether this was a race or a series of sprints I do not know. One wonders why no more events appear to have been run.

Twenty five years after the closure of the race circuit, in 1997, the Sevenoaks and District Motor Club and the Vintage Motorcycle Club succeeded in bringing back motor sport to Crystal Palace on the traditional Spring Holiday date with a sprint. The sprint course was approximately 600 yards, starting just before Pond Hairpin on the pre-war infield track. After Pond the course hairpined right onto Terrace Straight, then a chicane slowed cars before North Tower and the finish line just beyond. Competitors then carried on through the Glades and Fisherman’s to return to the paddock.

The event was co-promoted with the London Borough of Bromley who had acquired responsibility for Crystal Palace after the dissolution of the Greater London Council. The event became an annual fixture until the 2001 edition was cancelled. Apparently Bromley Council had decided to restore the park to Victorian times including narrowing the road way and resurfacing with resin bound gravel unsuited to racing tyres!

On of the more unusual facets of Crystal Palace was that post-war most of the racing was actually promoted by the London County Council and it’s successor the GLC. I suspect this must be unique for the UK. Organisation was in the hands of the BARC and BRSCC alternately but it was the Council that took the financial risks. When the track re-opened after the war in 1953 the BARC considered bidding to take on overall running of the motor racing but decided against doing so as they were in negotiations to do so at Aintree and felt they lacked sufficient resources to tackle both.

In later years, particularly after the injunction restricting racing to five days per year (cars and motorbikes) expired in 1970, some clubs hired the circuit, such as Jaguar Drivers Club, Thames Estuary AC and Aston Martin Owners Club.

I am compiling a detailed Formula 1 Register style record of racing at Crystal Palace. If any TNFs have official results bulletins I would be most grateful for a copy or scan. I do not need BARC meetings as their records are excellent but sadly this is not so for other clubs. F1/F2 and most FJ/F3 races are also well covered by F1R so it is mainly the sports/GT/saloon races I need.
RAP

#8 Twin Window

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 00:17

This recollection is, sadly, of no use at all - but I have a fond memory of my solitary visit to the venue in question. After staying with a friend for a non-chanmpionship F1 race at Brands, we made a detour and had a look at the by then-closed Crystal Palace circuit.

The pits were delapidated, and much of the track ripped up to make way for a new athletics venue (IIRC), but as we walked along the start/finish straight we remembered the startline accident from the last major meeting ever held there in the spring of '72, which involved Gerry Birrell and Graham Hill.

To our complete and utter astonishment, we found fibreglass remnants from both cars just under the topsoil! I still have mine (somewhere...). It was a rather sad experience, but one also strangely mixed with excitement thanks to our 'discovery'.

TW

#9 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 03:08

T W what a nice story!

One of the best posts recently has been this one on 10 tenths (RAP you will know this one too) http://www.ten-tenth...ce&pagenumber=1 and has maps, photos and stories aplenty.

#10 Rob29

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 06:40

Only a small part of the botton straight was covered by the new grandstand for the athletics track.I have been there many times since the circuit closed.Lived within walking distance 1976-79.For a Rally stage,the 1999 Sprint,Athletics,Cycling,Octopushy and exhibitions. Oh and a rock concert by Ian Dury on the day of the wedding of Charles & Diana.The grey & red notices stating 'Ths part of the Crystal Palace Park is closed for motor racing' were still in place on that day!
It was I think the first I ever heard of motor racing taking place,when meetings were advertised on the back of buses when it reopened in 1953. Went to my first meeting in September 1953.

#11 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 12:42

Originally posted by Twin Window
.... the startline accident from the last major meeting ever held there in the spring of '72, which involved Gerry Birrell and Graham Hill.

To our complete and utter astonishment, we found fibreglass remnants from both cars just under the topsoil! I still have mine (somewhere...). It was a rather sad experience, but one also strangely mixed with excitement thanks to our 'discovery'.

TW


I remember watching Graham walking ruefully back to his pit after that - displaying his helmet, which quite clearly bore the marks left by Gerry's tyre! He was greeted by sympathetic and relieved applause, as it had been quite a spectacular shunt.

However, there is another TNFer who has a rather larger souvenir of Hill at the Palace ....

#12 Twin Window

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 21:06

Originally posted by Vitesse2



However, there is another TNFer who has a rather larger souvenir of Hill at the Palace ....


Pray tell me more, Vitesse2...!

TW

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 23:08

I hope Barry will forgive me for stealing his thunder ....

http://forums.atlasf...465#post1355465

and see my post a few lines above :)

#14 Twin Window

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 23:15

Absolutely PRICELESS!!!

:rotfl:

TW

#15 Kvadrat

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 05:18

There are more then a hundred video clips on Crystal Palace history (not only motor races) at British Pathe (http://www.britishpa...=crystal palace) which gives good background information.

#16 MCS

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Posted 26 June 2004 - 13:38

Originally posted by Kvadrat
There are more then a hundred video clips on Crystal Palace history (not only motor races) at British Pathe (http://www.britishpa...=crystal palace) which gives good background information.


Only found one motor racing entry :(

MCS

#17 Michael Oliver

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 22:28

By coincidence, I was flicking through a family photo album the other night and came across a couple of photos of the parade of cars at the last ever meeting, which I attended. I could scan them but I don't have a facility to post them on the net, perhaps there is someone who could do this for me?

By further coincidence, during the early to mid-1980s I spent every Tuesday night pounding round part of the Crystal Palace circuit, in an anti-clockwise direction, pursuing my career as a racing cyclist, sprinting my heart out to cross the finish line which was located just at the left kink leading into the first corner (North Tower?).

Not sure if anybody has mentioned it, but there is a good (and very cheap) book on the history of racing at Crystal Palace. My Dad has it, so don't have it hand, but I'm sure the likes of Chaters, Millhouse etc., would have a copy.

#18 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 22:46

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
By coincidence, I was flicking through a family photo album the other night and came across a couple of photos of the parade of cars at the last ever meeting, which I attended. I could scan them but I don't have a facility to post them on the net, perhaps there is someone who could do this for me?

I'll gladly host them, Michael. But before sending them, try the Image Shack thread. No excuses for anyone now ... :lol:

#19 RTH

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 09:58

I also well remember attending Crystal Palace for the start of the first ever London to Sydney Marathon 1968? A huge adventure at the time which had massive media coverage with the broadsheet dailys devoting a lot of space each day to it , as I remember it went on to be won by Cowan,Malkin & Coyle in a blue. Hillman Hunter, defeating battalions of far more exotic and fancied motor cars

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#20 Michael Oliver

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 10:02

Originally posted by Vitesse2

I'll gladly host them, Michael. But before sending them, try the Image Shack thread. No excuses for anyone now ... :lol:


OK, I'll take you up on that one! I can think of quite a few excuses actually, top of the list being technical/IT incompetence of the highest order!

Firstly, I have to reconnect my scanner to my PC. Now, in which 'safe' place did I put that USB lead...!

#21 Michael Oliver

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 16:13

Having finally got to grips with Image Shack (it's easy really, honest guv!) I can now post my Crystal Palace pics. Actually, they are nothing special, not particularly good quality and only three of them, but there you go! Apologies for lack of clarity, something I attribute to poor quality scanner and poor quality scanner operative!

Posted Image
Looks suspiciously like S. Moss in the Birdcage? This is taken at the entrance to North Tower. In the background is the old pre-1953 circuit, which came up the hill after having looped round the lake, IIRC. This was the loop which was later used for cycle racing, although in an anti-clockwise direction.

Posted Image
This pic is taken a bit further towards the corner, with the lake which had a concert stage in the background.

Posted Image
Taken from the first part of North Tower, looking back towards the start/finish straight.

#22 TFBundy

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 08:33

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael Oliver

Posted Image
Looks suspiciously like S. Moss in the Birdcage? This is taken at the entrance to North Tower. In the background is the old pre-1953 circuit, which came up the hill after having looped round the lake, IIRC. This was the loop which was later used for cycle racing, although in an anti-clockwise direction.


Michael, can you or someone else tell me what the green car is in the background?

#23 275 GTB-4

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 11:57

Originally posted by RTH
I also well remember attending Crystal Palace for the start of the first ever London to Sydney Marathon 1968? A huge adventure at the time which had massive media coverage with the broadsheet dailys devoting a lot of space each day to it , as I remember it went on to be won by Cowan,Malkin & Coyle in a blue. Hillman Hunter, defeating battalions of far more exotic and fancied motor cars


Sadly Richard, the leading CITREON was punted out of the race with maybe a couple of hundred miles to go about an hour or so from where I live by an errant Morris 850!!!

Still an impressive win though.

#24 RTH

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 13:11

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


Sadly Richard, the leading CITREON was punted out of the race with maybe a couple of hundred miles to go about an hour or so from where I live by an errant Morris 850!!!

Still an impressive win though.


Am I right in thinking that would have been driven by Lucien Bianchi , and didn't he get killed not so long afterwards ? - or have I got it all mixed up ?

#25 TFBundy

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 13:35

In Fact co-driver Jean-Claude Ogier was driving; Quintin Spurring's Autosport review [27/12/68]


"So Bianchi was left in an apparently unassailable lead of 11 mins with only about 100 miles to go, and as the cars came down towards Nowra and a quiet, Sunday afternoon drive through Kangaroo Valley towards Sydney, he handed the driving over to Ogier so that he could snatch a bit of sleep before the inevitable pomp and ceremony of the finish. But then it happened: with Ogier powerless to do anything about it, two youths in a Mini collided with the Citroen and pushed it off the road. Bianchi was trapped inside the wrecked car for 20 mins. while help - summoned by Hopkirk, who had to drive back along the road to warn a group of spectators about the accident - came in the form of some cutting equipment, and he suffered a broken ankle, a cut head and shock, while poor Ogier was also suffering from shock; the Mini drivers were both slightly hurt. This was indeed a tragic end to their superb drive - what an achievement it would have been for Bianchi to have won Le Mans and the Marathon in the same year!"


It would have been Elford-esque!!


By the way with all the kerfuffle about an F1 Grand Prix on the streets of London, time was when I could go on a big red London Transport bus as a pre-teenager and see Grand Prix drivers racing F2 cars in the middle of a London suburb!

#26 Michael Oliver

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 17:22

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TFBundy
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael Oliver

Posted Image
Looks suspiciously like S. Moss in the Birdcage? This is taken at the entrance to North Tower. In the background is the old pre-1953 circuit, which came up the hill after having looped round the lake, IIRC. This was the loop which was later used for cycle racing, although in an anti-clockwise direction.


Michael, can you or someone else tell me what the green car is in the background?
[/QUOTE]

Something in the deep recesses of my brain wants to say Costin-Nathan but I'm really not sure, sorry...

#27 QuickVic

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 17:29

Looks like Raymond Mays in the green ERA in picture 2.

#28 Michael Oliver

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 22:01

Originally posted by QuickVic
Looks like Raymond Mays in the green ERA in picture 2.


Yes, I think you are absolutely right - when I looked at them last night with my Old Man he said the same thing, particularly when we zoomed in on him.

#29 Michael Oliver

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 22:09

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


Something in the deep recesses of my brain wants to say Costin-Nathan but I'm really not sure, sorry...


Had a look at Costin-Nathan pics on the net and it doesn't really look like that, so any suggestions anybody (green car in background in pic 1)?

#30 Roger Clark

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 22:39

I think the mystery green car is the Nomad, built and raced by Mark Konig in 1967/68.

Does anybody else think that the nose of the car driven by Moss looks most un;ike a Birdcage Maserati?

#31 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 23:43

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Does anybody else think that the nose of the car driven by Moss looks most un;ike a Birdcage Maserati?

The whole car looks "wrong" really. As you say, Roger, the nose is definitely non-standard. The bonnet seems somewhat longer than normal, especially at the front of the cockpit, where the chassis tubes are usually visible. The screen is more vertical than usual and those air scoops over the rear wheels are non-standard too. Whatever it is, I think it probably started life as a Tipo 60 rather than a Tipo 61, but someone's done some fairly serious redesigning on it! I've got the programme for this meeting somewhere ....

#32 RAP

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 08:20

I think these pictures are taken in the parade of famous drivers that preceeded the racing. The Maserati appears to be Bob Owen's T60. At the time this was always referred to as the original car that Moss won at Rouen with in 1959. However, according to the Joel Finn book the Rouen car (2451) was rebuilt into a long tail T61 for Camoradi and although Bob Owen did own it in 1971, by 1972 when this picture was taken it belongd to Hexagon of Highgate. Owen's T60 as shown here was 2466 according to Finn, having been used in Italian hillclimbs from 1960. Mind you, knowning Maserati's attitude to chassis numbers it is entirely possible that 2466 was in fact the prototype sold off when redundant ??

I too think the green car is the Nomad.

In the caption to the first picture Michael says "In the background is the old pre-1953 circuit, which came up the hill after having looped round the lake, IIRC." The pre war circuit did not join the top (Terrace) straight but looped back to the bottom straight where the start line was. There was however a link road between top straight and the infield loop which is what I think can be seen. This was used once in 1939 for the Stanley Trophy meeting to make a short circuit which ran bottom stright - Ramp - South Tower - link - infield loop back to bottom straight. It was also used by the Sevenoaks club for the sprints fro 1997 to 2000 which started on the infield loop, used the link to join top straight then went round North Tower.

RAP

#33 VAR1016

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 08:38

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Start with http://www.silhouet....s/crystalp.html.


This map shows the chequered flag in the wrong place: the start and finish were on Terrace Straight not on the bottom straight.

PdeRL

#34 RAP

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 08:52

The start / finish was on Bottom Straight as shown in the plan until 1961 when it was moved to top straight. This was because they started building the National athletics centre on the site of the paddock that was on the inside of bottom straight / Ramp bend.
RAP

#35 VAR1016

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 09:10

Originally posted by RAP
The start / finish was on Bottom Straight as shown in the plan until 1961 when it was moved to top straight. This was because they started building the National athletics centre on the site of the paddock that was on the inside of bottom straight / Ramp bend.
RAP


Ah, that'll be it then...

I first visited the circuit in 1962 :blush:

PdeRL

#36 TFBundy

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 14:50

Thanks! I've only ever seen a Nomad in open-topped form.

#37 Charles Helps

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 21:49

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
...
Posted Image
Taken from the first part of North Tower, looking back towards the start/finish straight.

Just found this thread. The ex-Peter Gammon 1954 Lotus Mk VI registered UPE-9 is the third red car back on the far side of the track. Does anyone know, or have a programme that gives more details of, who entered or drove the Lotus for the last meeting in Spring 1972 either in the parade of famous drivers or race?

#38 2F-001

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 22:05

The Spring meeting (May?) in '72 would surely have the European F2 round wouldn't it, Charles?
I certainly have the programme for that (somewhere), but wasn't there a largely historic meeting in September which I believe was the last car race meeting. Not so sure I have that one - I was much more preoccupied with contemporary cars back then! - but will have a look over Christmas

#39 MCS

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 22:12

Last meeting was certainly Historic - nothing contemporary.

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#40 Charles Helps

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 22:25

Tony and MCS, I was going to say that I copied the date from Twinny's much earlier post but now I see that I failed to notice the word major :blush:

Many thanks for pointing out that what I'm looking for is information from the Autumn (September?) 1972 Historic meeting - the one at which Michael Oliver took his photos...

#41 2F-001

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 22:33

I've just had a quick look in Phillip Parfitt's "Racing at Crystal Palace" and that final car meet is listed as the "Daily Mirror Historic Trophy" on September 23rd.

(re UPE 9 - presumably this is something Wattie doesn't know then?!)

#42 RAP

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Posted 24 December 2005 - 08:51

The last car races were the AMOC Historic meeting on 23 Sept 72. There was a parade of "ladies and gentlemen who have driven at the Palace" and I think this photo is of the parade. The programme listed the participants and cars they had raced but not what they were aboard in the parade. There is no mention of Lotus V1 in the "cars driven list". The obvious answer would be that it was Peter Gammon but he was not listed as one of the drivers but could, of course, have been a late addition. THe Lotus V1 did not take part in the actual racing.

By the way, it might be of interested that in 2006 the Formula 1 Register is intending to publish my "Record of Motor Racing at Crystal Palace" in the style of Robert Barker's book on Goodwood. This will give full details F1R-style eg girds, full results, lao charts of every race at Crystal Palace.

In this regard, can anyone help out with lap charts for the 2nd August 1969 meeting.? I have the F3 race but not the other races. They don't have to be complete - just the leading positions would be a help.

Richard

#43 Charles Helps

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Posted 24 December 2005 - 10:06

Originally posted by 2F-001
...
(re UPE 9 - presumably this is something Wattie doesn't know then?!)

Many thanks again, and no, he doesn't - he asked me to find out!

Richard, thanks for checking the programme. Back to first hand reminiscences of 23rd September 1972 then - anyone?

btw, Richard, when Robert Barker was putting together his Goodwood book, he was kind enough to ask me to check some of his Lotus Mk VI entries and I'd be delighted to do the same for you if it's of any help.

Charles

#44 RAP

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Posted 24 December 2005 - 11:15

Richard, when Robert Barker was putting together his Goodwood book, he was kind enough to ask me to check some of his Lotus Mk VI entries and I'd be delighted to do the same for you if it's of any help.


Charles. Many thanks for the offer. I will PM you a list.
Regards
Richard

#45 VAR1016

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Posted 24 December 2005 - 19:04

Well, I was at the last meeting and had forgotten about the parade. Yes I had the programme, but of course it was lost years ago.

I do recall that the late Gerry Marshall won the last race in a Lister-Jaguar.

PdeRL

#46 EDWARD FITZGERALD

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Posted 24 December 2005 - 23:10

I attended the September 23 event , I had discovered THE Palace at the may F2 meet and was smitten , so much that I dragged a friend to the final meet , and we both became convinced that day that historics were the future , (Classic Car magazine had yet to hit the shelves ). I took slides that day so I will have to go rooting ,the likely passengers in the Masser are Ted Lund or TASO Mathieson as they are listed in the prog ( as passengers) in The F arewell Parade ,it was a wonderful expierence, and we topped it off with a trip to the TT on the sunday , and back to Dublin for monday, and work .

#47 klemcoll

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 16:52

Does anyone have an entry list for the BARC race meeting at Crystal Palace on September 2, 1961? We are looking for the name of the driver of a Lola Mk. I sports car, race n. 40, with registration n. XDW 919.

Thanks for anyone who can help!

#48 David McKinney

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 18:30

XDW 919 was the car raced by Hon Edward Greenall in 1960 and Peter Boshier-Jones in 1961 (which is not to say that's who was in it in your Crystal Palace race). Chassis no. was BR9 and it went to the US in the later '60s

#49 klemcoll

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 18:40

Thank you. If anyone can confirm the driver as Boshier-Jones from the entry list, that would be super.

#50 Roger Clark

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 18:50

Peter Boshier-Jones won the 1100cc sorts car race in a Lola.