42 replies to this topic

[Muzza]

Fellows,


Some friends and I are debating about the proper spelling of Elio's name and we cannot find a final answer to it: is it de Angelis or De Angelis?

The fact that (most of) the English media writes it de Angelis and most of the Italians do it as De Angelis does not prove anything (*).

Most prepositioned Italian names are indeed capitalized - as De Martino, Del Nero, Della Colletta and other. Names with lower case (non-capitalized) prepositions - as our dear Guido de Carli - are an exception, traditionally (but not always) associated with a certain noble origin.

Some unnaceptable "proves" are:

- "It is de Angelis because his family is wealthy, so they are noble";

- "It is de Angelis because I saw it written in one of his cars" - look a Kieth O'dor/Odor cars at this page (unless the same spelling of his name was always used on his cars, as well on overalls)

To make things more complicated:

- Italian passports display names capitalized, as DE ANGELIS...

- many families have members with different spellings - as my own family does - due to registrar errors that sometimes are only discovered many years later...

- it seems that capitalized prepositions are becoming more common, with names changing from forms like de Sanctis to De Sanctis...

(*) Guido told me his own story: when Autosprint published a letter of his he had his name suddenly capitalized! According to Guido "They simply capitalize ALL surnames, without wondering if it's correct or not."

Anyone with the ultimate answer to this?

Thanks a lot,


Muzza

P.S.: To follow: de Adamich, de Cesaris, de Filippis...

[Twin Window]

Hi Muzza

Surely they're definately going to have it written correctly on their helmets?

In Elio's case, that was always 'de Angelis'...



Same goes for de Adamich...



TW

[Twin Window]

...and Andrea too!



I think perhaps there's a pattern emerging!

TW

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Twin Window
...and Andrea too!



I think perhaps there's a pattern emerging!

TW

So it seems I am glad to note.

PdeRL

[David McKinney]

Italian families in America seem to prefer a capital 'D' - as in De Palma and De Paolo (or should that be DePalma and DePaolo?)
I have always spelt the de Sanctis family name with a small 'd' and the make of car with a capital

[Muzza]

Thanks Fellows (particularly Twin Windows ),


I agree that a driver's name on his/her helmet is a very strong evidence that, in my opinion, can be accepted as proof (particularly if it is a professionally painted helmet of a professional driver).

Twin Windows, would you please post a picture of Elio's casco with his name displayed, if you can? Just to make this thread complete.

David, Americans seem particularly inclined to agglutinate propositions or articles to nouns in surnames. This is quite common in the case of Italian (DiFranco, DiNapoli) and French surnames (Le Coq >> LeCoq / Lecock and even Leecock, de Dion >> DeDion, not to list many others), but I have also seen this practice applied to Spanish, Portuguese, German and Dutch names on this side of the pond.

About the drivers you mentioned, I am not sure whether their were Ralph de Palma and Peter de Paolo or Ralph De Palma and Peter De Paolo, but I strongly believe that in both cases these were not agglutinated names (at least not originally; I am sure in the case of De Palma, who was born in Italy). However, the spellings I list are not the most commonly printed, particularly in the United States where references to DePalma and DePaolo are everywhere...

The name of the car maker is de Sanctis (of course you know that). I just used this surname as an example of the transformation "lower case preposition >> capitalized preposition" that seems to be a trend in Italian, as more than one person - including Guido himself, in two separate occasions - reported to me.

A related question is... how to sort these names? In case of Italian names with capitalized preposition they should definitely be under D (and not A, C, M, N or whatever the first letter of the following noun is). I was less sure of that for non-capitalized prepositions (such as de Angelis), but Guido confirmed that in Italy they are also listed under D. So, we will write de Angelis and file it under D.

Cheers, and thanks again,


Muzza

[Twin Window]

Muzza

I've added a (rather poor) image of Elio into my first post.

TW

[David Hyland]

Originally posted by Muzza
A related question is... how to sort these names? In case of Italian names with capitalized preposition they should definitely be under D (and not A, C, M, N or whatever the first letter of the following noun is). I was less sure of that for non-capitalized prepositions (such as de Angelis), but Guido confirmed that in Italy they are also listed under D. So, we will write de Angelis and file it under D.

Now the only trick is convincing your computer that 'd' comes between 'C' and 'E', and not after 'Z' (i.e. between 'c' and 'e')

BTW, I once saw an alphabetized list with "McLaren" in the middle of the 'L's.....

[fines]

Be careful with names printed on helmets and cars! I've seen a picture of Nelson Piquet in his F3 Ralt with "Piket" on it, although I understand that's the way it is pronounced (and not "Pee-kay"). Also I've seen Trevor van Rooyen's F3 car with "Trevor van Royen" on it.

[lustigson]

In the Netherlands we have a rule about surnames with so-called infixes, lik 'de', 'van', etc.

It's very simple:
(1) If the first name and/or initials are written in front of the surname, you spell the infix in lower case, like 'Gijs van Lennep wins Le Mans', 'Elio de Angelis tests for Ferrari' or 'A. de Cesaris wrecks his Alfa Romeo'.
(2) If the last name is written without first name and/or initial, you spell the infix in upper case, like 'Van Lennep drove a handful of GPs', 'Beloved driver De Angelis dies in crash', etc.

Works every time...;)

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by lustigson
In the Netherlands we have a rule about surnames with so-called infixes, lik 'de', 'van', etc.

It's very simple:
(1) If the first name and/or initials are written in front of the surname, you spell the infix in lower case, like 'Gijs van Lennep wins Le Mans', 'Elio de Angelis tests for Ferrari' or 'A. de Cesaris wrecks his Alfa Romeo'.
(2) If the last name is written without first name and/or initial, you spell the infix in upper case, like 'Van Lennep drove a handful of GPs', 'Beloved driver De Angelis dies in crash', etc.

Works every time...;)

I thought that was the way we did it in the UK too.

[Muzza]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Muzza

I've added a (rather poor) image of Elio into my first post.

TW

Thanks!

Originally posted by fines
Be careful with names printed on helmets and cars! I've seen a picture of Nelson Piquet in his F3 Ralt with "Piket" on it, although I understand that's the way it is pronounced (and not "Pee-kay"). Also I've seen Trevor van Rooyen's F3 car with "Trevor van Royen" on it.

Agreed, Fines - I have also seen names misspelled in cars, helmets and even overalls! That's why I made remarks in my opening posting like "in one of his cars" (only one picture is not an acceptable evidence) and mentioned the case of Kieth O'dor/Odor cars (incidentally, Kieth's name is still a subject of debate).

About Piquet, he actually raced as Nelson Piket in Formula Vee in Brazil. He registered to races as such, had his name written like that in cars, hemets, overalls and etc. - it was a pseudonym.

Nelson's complete name is Nelson Piquet Souto Mayor - Piquet from is mother, Souto Mayor from his father (in Portuguese-speaking countries it is optional to add the mother's maiden name to one's full name when a person his born; Nelson's family chose to do that. The father's name is always the last one - well, bar registrar errors, as in the case of a girl I know...).

Nelson's father was adamantly against his racing aspirations, and that's why he adopted his mother's maiden name as his racing surname. He changed the spelling to Piket to "hide it from his mother too". At first it may look like the least intelligent pseudonym ever, as the similarity between Nelson Piquet and Nelson Piket are obvious, but Nelson actually expected to be caught out. He was very confident on himself, being sure that he would succeed, and wanted to "slap it in the face of his parents" once he "scored big".

Originally posted by lustigson
In the Netherlands we have a rule about surnames with so-called infixes, lik 'de', 'van', etc.

It's very simple:
(1) If the first name and/or initials are written in front of the surname, you spell the infix in lower case, like 'Gijs van Lennep wins Le Mans', 'Elio de Angelis tests for Ferrari' or 'A. de Cesaris wrecks his Alfa Romeo'.
(2) If the last name is written without first name and/or initial, you spell the infix in upper case, like 'Van Lennep drove a handful of GPs', 'Beloved driver De Angelis dies in crash', etc.

Works every time...;)

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I thought that was the way we did it in the UK too.

Quite interesting, lustigon and Allen. That's not the case in Portuguese, Spanish and French (to the very best of my knowledge; I also looked in several grammar books and did not find anything about it - if I am wrong, please let me know). The only case in these languages that a lower case preposition (in a name) would be capitalized is if it a sentence begins with it, as in "Oscar goes to de Dion" versus "De Dion wins best director Oscar".

Also, we are listing prepositioned Dutch names under the first letter of the noun - Gijs van Lennep would be under G - but, as explained by Marc Ceulemans, similar Belgian-Flemish names should be under v.

Hungarian names are witten (in Hungarian) surname-first. We are writing Hungarian names as, say, in English (surname-last), adding a comment. For example:

name: Csaba Kesjár
complete name: Csaba Kesjár (in Hungarian, Kesjár Csaba)

(this has not been done yet for László Hartmann since he was born under the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, so we are not exactly sure about him... Hopefully Geza Sury or another Hungarian Atlas F1 member can clarify that)

Any comments and corrections would be much appreciated.

Thanks,


Muzza

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I thought that was the way we did it in the UK too.

News to me
Are we talking correct usage or custom?

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Muzza
Nelson's complete name is Nelson Piquet Souto Mayor

Isn't it spelled Nélson Piquet Souta Maior?

Also, we are listing prepositioned Dutch names under the first letter of the noun - Gijs van Lennep would be under G - but, as explained by Marc Ceulemans, similar Belgian-Flemish names should be under v.

Gijs van Lennep would typically be listed under L here in Holland: Lennep, Gijs van.

To make matters a bit more complicated, however, there tend to be differences. I forgot them in my previous post. Van Lennep could very well be amongst those.

There are examples of names like 'Van Lennep', 'Van Amstel' or 'De Boer' being spelt in upper case no matter what. Usually those families are (or were) nobility. And, since Gijs van Lennep is a 'jonkheer' (esquire), he could very well be listed under V.

[Muzza]

Originally posted by lustigson

Isn't it spelled Nélson Piquet Souta Maior?

Yes, it is. My apologies... His name is Nélson Piquet Souto Maior.

(You made a little typo, lustigon, writing Souta instead of Souto.).

In a non-related comment, his third name is not Sotto, as sometimes written.

Originally posted by lustigson
Gijs van Lennep would typically be listed under L here in Holland: Lennep, Gijs van.

To make matters a bit more complicated, however, there tend to be differences. I forgot them in my previous post. Van Lennep could very well be amongst those.

There are examples of names like 'Van Lennep', 'Van Amstel' or 'De Boer' being spelt in upper case no matter what. Usually those families are (or were) nobility. And, since Gijs van Lennep is a 'jonkheer' (esquire), he could very well be listed under V.

I understand... In Italian it is the opposite - "noble origin" is usually lower case, "non-noble origin" is usually capitalized.

The issue of who is and who is not "noble" is a whole different story. Some individuals/families turned "noble" by getting wealthy, or by exchanging political favors. Other "nobles" opted to become "non-nobles", especially those associated with the Anarchist, Communist and Republican movements in Italy... And, finally, most people simply don't care if their names is written with di or Di.

Cheers,


Muzza

[René de Boer]

Originally posted by lustigson

There are examples of names like 'Van Lennep', 'Van Amstel' or 'De Boer' being spelt in upper case no matter what. Usually those families are (or were) nobility. And, since Gijs van Lennep is a 'jonkheer' (esquire), he could very well be listed under V.

So I better change my name to "De Boer", then ?!? To be honest, I wasn't aware of this in Holland. I have seen it in Belgium, though.

But it is true that outside of Holland, I am normally listed under D, whereas in Holland, it's always under B.

Off topic: Reminds me of a story I once heard from a missionary who lived in Africa and always wondered why he never received any mail. So he went to the post office (or whatever it was) and asked whether he could have a look at the letters that had arrived there poste restante. There were loads and loads, all under M, as every letter was addressed to Mr. so-and-so...

[lustigson]

Hi René, long time no see!

Yes, there are noble folks in Holland whose names are spelled that way. I know two examples: my mother-in-law's maiden name is spelled Tenny De Boer instead of Tenny de Boer and therefor listed under D instead of B; a former colleague of mine is spelled Gijsbert Van Amstel instead of Gijsbert van Amstel and therefor listed under V instead of A.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Muzza
(You made a little typo, lustigon, writing Souta instead of Souto.).

Oops.

Originally posted by Muzza
most people simply don't care if their names is written with di or Di.

Talking about 'di' as in 'Luca di Montezemolo'. I once read in an interview that Luca's name excluded the 'di' part. Is that because he's nobility, too? As in 'Luca, il cordero di Montezemolo'? He writes his name as 'Luca Montezemolo'.

Any clues?

[Gert]

Originally posted by lustigson
my mother-in-law's maiden name is spelled Tenny De Boer instead of Tenny de Boer and therefor listed under D instead of B; a former colleague of mine is spelled Gijsbert Van Amstel instead of Gijsbert van Amstel and therefor listed under V instead of A.

Wow!

What a difficult system. Must make it hard to search for a person if you don't exactly know how the name is spelled...

I like the Belgian system much better then :-)

Van de Poele would be registered under 'V' regardless of the way you spell it.

Could be:
- Van de Poele
- van de Poele
- Van De Poele
- van De Poele
- Vandepoele
- Vande Poele (rather odd, but still! it exists)

You will always find them under "V".

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by lustigson

Oops.



Talking about 'di' as in 'Luca di Montezemolo'. I once read in an interview that Luca's name excluded the 'di' part. Is that because he's nobility, too? As in 'Luca, il cordero di Montezemolo'? He writes his name as 'Luca Montezemolo'.

Any clues?

I'm very glad you've mentioned that, lustigson, because for a long while I thought of myself as (as the younger folk call it in these parts today) a mentalist!

Without doubt, in my memory banks anyway, 30-odd years ago Luca was known as 'Luca Montezemolo'.

When he resurfaced much later, with the 'di' attached, I was forced to question my own sanity!

TW

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by lustigson
Hi René, long time no see!

Yes, there are noble folks in Holland whose names are spelled that way. I know two examples: my mother-in-law's maiden name is spelled Tenny De Boer instead of Tenny de Boer and therefor listed under D instead of B; a former colleague of mine is spelled Gijsbert Van Amstel instead of Gijsbert van Amstel and therefor listed under V instead of A.

Is that right. In my village there lives a Count van Limburg Stirum. In the telephone guide he is listed under L.

Gerrit Stevens

[lustigson]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
In my village there lives a Count van Limburg Stirum. In the telephone guide he is listed under L.

Well, I reckon it doesn't acCount (!) for all nobles.;)

[Arjan de Roos]

Must add something too, hehe.

In dutch 'de' is equivalent of 'the', whereas in italian and french 'de' means 'coming from'. So De Angelis and De Cesaris come from a town, farm, or other called like that. In dutch and flemisch this would be 'van' or 'van de Poele'

Often in Belgium and the UK/US 'van der' or 'van' is combined with the family name to one word:

Vanbrabant of Vanderbilt ...

[Don Capps]

About the drivers you mentioned, I am not sure whether their were Ralph de Palma and Peter de Paolo or Ralph De Palma and Peter De Paolo, but I strongly believe that in both cases these were not agglutinated names (at least not originally; I am sure in the case of De Palma, who was born in Italy). However, the spellings I list are not the most commonly printed, particularly in the United States where references to DePalma and DePaolo are everywhere...

From what I have managed to gather after no end of digging was that "De Palma" was what De Palma (duh) seemed to consistently use in personal correspondence, autographs, and so forth.

Much the same with De Paolo, although not as consistent: usually "De Paolo" but also "DePaolo" on occasion, but I have little that would hint at "de Paolo."

In my references to these drivers, I use "De Palma" and "De Paolo."

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
...Vanbrabant of Vanderbilt ...

Or Vandervell perhaps?

I become quite annoyed when the Microsoft spell-checker expects me to change the "de" in my name to "De".

PdeRL

[ReWind]

Originally posted by lustigson
Talking about 'di' as in 'Luca di Montezemolo'. I once read in an interview that Luca's name excluded the 'di' part. Is that because he's nobility, too? As in 'Luca, il cordero di Montezemolo'? He writes his name as 'Luca Montezemolo'.

Any clues?

ISTR having read an article on or an interview with Luca (di) Montezemolo in a German-language magazine (probably „Motorsport aktuell") not so long ago, maybe at the beginning of this year or in 2003.

If my memory doesn’t play tricks on me Montezemolo declared his real name was Luca Cordero. During his professional education other people called him „Luca di Montezemolo" in the sense of „Luca from Montezemolo" since this was the town (village?) he hailed from. The designation stuck and eventually he chose it for his name but without „di". So he became Luca Montezemolo instead of Luca Cordero.

[David McKinney]

So how come his uncle, owner of an ex-F1 OSCA in 1954, was Paolo Cordero di Montezemolo?
I suspect the surname (for both) is Cordero di Montezemolo

[lustigson]

Isn't Montezemolo a noble of some sort? And doesn't 'Cordero' point in that direction?

[ReWind]

Confirmation of my memory - at least partly - by an article in „Motorsport aktuell" 40/2003, p. 6 (author: Mathias Brunner) :

Wenn sein Name Schule machen würde, müssten wir Michael Schumacher eigentlich „Michael von Kerpen-Manheim" nennen. Der Ferrari-Chef wird oft Luca di Montezemolo genannt, Luca Montezemolo auch, und beides ist im Grunde - falsch. Denn der erfolgreiche Manager heisst Luca Cordero, irgendwann sagte er, „der Cordero aus Montezemolo", daraus wurde „di Montezemolo", und das ist hängen geblieben.

[T54]

Well Gentlemen, since I am one of "them", I will explain to you how this works:
A prefix like "von", "de" or "di" simply means.... "from" and does not warrant a capital except in the following circumstances.

Originally, such names only meant that you were not only "from" the place (city, town or castle) of your name, but...owned it, generally because the land was given to you by the local tyran (king or emperor or what-have-you) to reward you for your merits as you were knighted because you broke someone's head with a single blow of your favorite supercharged Durandal sword. Many members of the old nobility acquired such "fiefs" (I.E. property) and added the names of the newly conquered territories or said locations behind each other, plus the granted title. As an example, Bertrand, marquis de la Monneraye, comte de Saint-Remi, baron de Saint-Jacques etc. as they acquired such property, by force or by reward.

The revolution of the late 1790's abolished accumulated and often un-deserved nobility privileges, and the names were retained but no longer meant much for the ones with their previous land and fortunes confiscated by the new popular governments. In the 19th century, many snobs BOUGHT such names to look more grand than they really were, often purchasing such names from the destitute nobles themselves. And often, these nouveau-riche grand bourgeois CAPITALIZED the first letter, since as everyone knows, if a little is good, more of it is better.

In the USA, nobilite was abolished to a point where immigrants are still today being stripped of any retained titles even if purely symbolic as they apply for their citizenship. Silly as swearing that you are not a communist, but a clear establishment of basic equality as per the constitution.

So to conclude, the correct spelling of the prefix is ALWAYS correct in lower case, and it is indeed, Elio de Angelis, Richard von Frankenberg, Luca Cordero di Montezemolo and in the same line of thinking, le Mans and not Le Mans. But when you CALL such a person by name, you only call the NAME, not the prefix: "Good morning Mister Montezemolo, good morning Mister Frankenberg."
And this is the way it is supposed to be, so when you visit Charles March, future Duke of Richmond, make sure that you write your introduction to the Duke of Richmond and not the Duke Of Richmond, because that would be gauche.
Would you ask someone to fetch something From the cellar?
Regards,

T54
AKA P de L, Count de P, Viscount de M, de C and another couple of hundred localities long gone and for the better I am sure.

[Frank S]

Originally posted by T54
...

T54
AKA P de L, Count de P, Viscount de M, de C and another couple of hundred localities long gone and for the better I am sure.

Ahem.

Any of that up for sale or auction?


Frank S de Lot 87 Vista Mesa

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by T54
Well Gentlemen, since I am one of "them", I will explain to you how this works:
A prefix like "von", "de" or "di" simply means.... "from" and does not warrant a capital except in the following circumstances.

Originally, such names only meant that you were not only "from" the place (city, town or castle) of your name, but...owned it, generally because the land was given to you by the local tyran (king or emperor or what-have-you) to reward you for your merits as you were knighted because you broke someone's head with a single blow of your favorite supercharged Durandal sword. Many members of the old nobility acquired such "fiefs" (I.E. property) and added the names of the newly conquered territories or said locations behind each other, plus the granted title. As an example, Bertrand, marquis de la Monneraye, comte de Saint-Remi, baron de Saint-Jacques etc. as they acquired such property, by force or by reward.

The revolution of the late 1790's abolished accumulated and often un-deserved nobility privileges, and the names were retained but no longer meant much for the ones with their previous land and fortunes confiscated by the new popular governments. In the 19th century, many snobs BOUGHT such names to look more grand than they really were, often purchasing such names from the destitute nobles themselves. And often, these nouveau-riche grand bourgeois CAPITALIZED the first letter, since as everyone knows, if a little is good, more of it is better.

In the USA, nobilite was abolished to a point where immigrants are still today being stripped of any retained titles even if purely symbolic as they apply for their citizenship. Silly as swearing that you are not a communist, but a clear establishment of basic equality as per the constitution.

So to conclude, the correct spelling of the prefix is ALWAYS correct in lower case, and it is indeed, Elio de Angelis, Richard von Frankenberg, Luca Cordero di Montezemolo and in the same line of thinking, le Mans and not Le Mans. But when you CALL such a person by name, you only call the NAME, not the prefix: "Good morning Mister Montezemolo, good morning Mister Frankenberg."
And this is the way it is supposed to be, so when you visit Charles March, future Duke of Richmond, make sure that you write your introduction to the Duke of Richmond and not the Duke Of Richmond, because that would be gauche.
Would you ask someone to fetch something From the cellar?
Regards,

T54
AKA P de L, Count de P, Viscount de M, de C and another couple of hundred localities long gone and for the better I am sure.

That's all fine, and it works for Carel de Beaufort (simply called 'Beaufort') or Ludwig van Beethoven ('Beethoven'), but I'm afraid you are stretching the way nobility handles these things to the rules that govern common names.

As explained by many, there are many countries with prefixed names that have nothing to do with nobility. If any, Holland is full of them - there are more prefixed than non-prefixed names among Holland's common surnames - Van Dijk (from the dike), Van der Meer (from the lake), Van den Berg (from the mountain), Van den Heuvel (from the hill) etc. etc. I could go on for hours...

You don't say 'Mr Lof' to Dries van der Lof, his name is 'Van der Lof' - repeating what lustigson already said, so Dries van der Lof (not using the capital V if the first name is in front of it) or Van der Lof (with a capital V if the name goes without a first name). But it's listed under L in the phone directory! This even applies to many (lower) noblemen such as Gijs van Lennep.

In Belgium (Flanders) 'van', 'de', 'den' and 'van den/vanden/van der/vander/van de/vande' and what have you names are all listed under V and D, which is hardly practical - V and D are taking up half the phone book! - but that's the way they do it over there...

So I'd say there is no one set of worldwide rules applying to prefixed names.

[T54]

As explained by many, there are many countries with prefixed names that have nothing to do with nobility.

This is absolutely correct, and I should have added that many old names came from the simple fact that someone was "from some place" and were given the name "from wherever". But the capitalization of the "From" only came in the 19th century. If one looks at writs from the 18th or 17th century or before, these names (including Rembrandt van Riyjn or Riijn ot Rijn as sometimes spelled), correctly points that this fellow Rembrandt IS "from" Ryijb (or wherever) to distinguish him from that other Rembrandt from Barcelona or Poughkepsie.

What really changed all this was the first-time registration of citizens (for property tax-collection purpose, what else), towards the middle and end of the 19th century, when clerks pretty much adopted the origin of citizens as their last names, because too many first names were causing too much confusion. Before this, most people had only their first name and no last names, EXCEPT for the nobility. It's as simple as this.
My own family has a thick (I mean, 5" thick!) huge book started in the late 18th century and going back in the family tree to 850 AD... and it is very clear of what happened there, where the first name of each person is THE name, and the "last name? is strictly where the person came from. Example: "Jacques, baron of Montprisat, married Cunegonde, daughter of Henri, comte de Volvic and lord of Ganat, on this day, the 11th of September, 1255".
But in 1875, there is an entry showing the REGISTRATION at the town hall of a city in Brittany, of all the living family members, and a LAST NAME is for the first time, used instead of the first, so as to remove confusion between all the identical first names of the citizens of this county.
However, all the prefixes remain in lower case for our family, while other entries show other persons un-related to our family, with the prefix capitalized as well as their place or residence which often was their name.
Also a lot of name contraction happened then: "du Pont" became Dupont" etc... The original name for the Dupont de Nemours is du Pont de Nemours.

In the case of true nobility (earned or not, and I know I did not inherit mine on the battlefield), the general hieraldic rule is NOT to capitalize the prefix, and use the second part for classification in alphabetic order. In other words, von Frankenberg is supposed to be listed in the "F's" and not the "V's", while an "untitled" person with the same name would be Von Frankenberg and listed in the "V's".
And so, Elio de Angelis or Luca di Montezemolo's names are spelled correctly this way since their families had noble ancestry (again, earned or not).
Ouf!

T54 AKA P de L, Count de P, Viscount de M, de C and another couple of hundred localities long gone and for the better I am sure.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ahem. Any of that up for sale or auction?

Depends on the bid and the reserve... I would not mind taking my mother's name, more glorious in its British naval history ancestry and LOTS easier to pronounce and spell!

[lustigson]

Originally posted by T54
If one looks at writs from the 18th or 17th century or before, these names (including Rembrandt van Riyjn or Riijn as sometimes spelled), correctly points that this fellow Rembrandt IS "from" Ryijb (or wherever) to distinguish him from that other Rembrandt from Barcelona or Poughkepsie.

It's Rembrandt van Rijn, IIRC...;)

[Racer.Demon]

Or even Van Rhijn/Rhyn.

[T54]

It's Rembrandt van Rijn, IIRC...

Whatever.

[gdecarli]

I'm very busy and I found this thread only now, thanks to Muzza, but we had some e-mail about this matter.

First of all, I agree with Muzza about de Adamich, de Angelis and de Cesaris. In my e-mail I said that without any proof I would write them with De, but I think we can trust in their helmets, even if they aren't 100% definitive proof.

Originally posted by T54
Well Gentlemen, since I am one of "them", I will explain to you how this works:
A prefix like "von", "de" or "di" simply means.... "from" and does not warrant a capital except in the following circumstances.

Well, in this case de and di are quite different. da and di are used as from, but I think that best translation for de is of. Please note that I'm not expert on this subject, so all what I'm writing cold be wrong!

Elio de Angelis should mean Elio belonging to Angelis family, and Angelis is plural form of Angelo, an Italian name. Final s for plural form is not common in Italian, I think it's an ancient form derived from latin and I'm not surprised that at least two of them (de Angelis and de Cesaris) come from Rome. Maria Teresa de Filippis was born in Naples, but I don't know where her family comes from.

Plural form with a final i are much more common (i.e. de Carli).

I think that names like de Martino and de Luca have the same origin, even if Martino and Luca are first names, in their original singular form. I think they are more common in Southern Italy.

As regards names with di, they are used in several ways. Usually is used only real surname, and location after di is omitted. Many nobles have such names and they don't use it.
Few person (often nobles with important titles) uses also location.
Montezemolo is one of them. He his Luca Cordero coming from Montezemolo, a small village not too far from Torino.
I tried to search with Google on Italian pages only different spelling:

• Luca Cordero di Montezemolo: 10400 pages found
• Luca Cordero Montezemolo: 112 pages found
• Luca Cordero (without Montezemolo) : 213 pages found. but many of them have mistyping in Montezemolo, so they should be add to first case
• Luca di Montezemolo: 5110 pages found
• Luca Montezemolo: 492 pages found
• di Montezemolo (without Luca and Cordero) : not relevant, because it list pages about Montezemolo village and pages on which di is used as a preposition (english: of), not as part of his name.

Of corse Google is not a proof, but I quite agree with this result.

Ciao,
Guido

[gdecarli]

In my previous post I forgot to add that Adamich doesn't sound Italian. I don't know their origin, but as de Adamich is born in Trieste, I think they could have come from Yugoslavia (well, for sure many years before such country was born, but I think it's good for understanding what area I'm talking about) and then they add de according to Italian laws (see below).

As I said, I wrote an e-mail to Muzza about this matter but I think could be interesting here:

As regards question about Italian names with DA and DE, my father replied me as follows (my translation is quite rough, so I forward also original Italian replay for who can understand Italian) :

e-mail from my father
This matter is much easier. "de" wasn't included in surnames, but it was only a preposition for nobles, so it was not capitalized. In 1920s a new law canceled all preposition because they caused too many confusion, so all nobles had to decide whether to cancel it or save it included in surname. Almost everybody decided to include it in surname, but they
went on writing in lowercase - as it use to be.

La cosa è molto più semplice. Il "de" non faceva parte del cognome, ma era un predicato nobiliare, pertanto si scriveva minuscolo. Negli anni venti del secolo scorso è stata fatta una legge che aboliva i predicati nobiliari perchè causavano confusioni anagrafiche, per cui i sigg. nobili sono stati invitati o a rinunciare al predicato nobiliare o a conservarlo ma come facente parte del cognome. Quasi tutti, che io sappia, l'hanno conservato e hanno accettato che venisse a far parte del cognome, e però hanno continuato a scriverlo minuscolo.

I.e. before 1920s my grandfather and my ancestors used to sign "Carli" on official documents, as "Carli" was official surname, but they used to sign "de Carli" on private letters.

But there is still something strange: a cousin of mine (officially registred as "de Carli") is listed under C in list for vote (I don't know exact name in English). So, my conclusion is:

• Italian documents can distinguish between uppercase and lowercase, even if they usually use only uppercase
• All people must be listed under D, as "da" and "de" are included into surnames.
• There is no rule to decide if "da" and "de" are uppercase or lowercase. If no info is known, I would use uppercase.
• As regards Guido de Martino, he died in 1907 (I have a photo on my website taken by some grand-uncle), so at that time he was under old laws, his surname was "Martino" and "de" was for sure lowercase. I don't know how he should be listed in a modern list.

Ciao,
Guido

[T54]

Well, in this case de and di are quite different. da and di are used as from, but I think that best translation for de is of. Please note that I'm not expert on this subject, so all what I'm writing cold be wrong!

Yes, this is also valid but came later long after the basic families had lived with the name of the locality for quite a while.

As far as the post directly above, much of the changes especially in France and Italy were designed by the local and federal government to demean and eliminate any notion of a person's nobility, almost as a persecution. While it is hardly the case nowadays, it was very prevalent as late as the 1970's, being born from a noble family casting one as a pariah, with subsequent mostly gentle discrimination in schools and public gatherings.

T54

[gdecarli]

I was born in 1973, but I don't think that here in Italy there was any sort of persecution involving surnames and/or nobles.
I know that Italian Republic (so after 1946) canceled official titles, but I don't think it changed also surnames. I know several person with official surname in the same form used by Luca Cordero di Montezemolo and they have problem when they have to fill in forms because of lack of space.

Law reported by my father issued in 1920s didn't cancel titles (as they were still in use in Kingdom of Italy), it simply try to re-organize a confused situation.

I think that influence of French Revolution wasn't so strong on that point here in Italy.

Ciao,
Guido

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Muzza
Agreed, Fines - I have also seen names misspelled in cars, helmets and even overalls! That's why I made remarks in my opening posting like "in one of his cars" (only one picture is not an acceptable evidence) and mentioned the case of Kieth O'dor/Odor cars (incidentally, Kieth's name is still a subject of debate).

It won't be any longer! Keith's father, János Ódor was Hungarian, so he had a Hungarian family name, which is usually somewhat different. (I hope you can see the letter "Ó" in your screen correctly.) Since there's no "Ó" in the English ABC, Keith (or was it his famous father, who was known as "Jan Odor"?) changed his name to O'dor. Oh, and how to pronounce "Ó"? Well you have to say it like in the word "door".

Edit: I don't know if the family actually changed the name to "O'dor", but the original (and thus correct spelling is "Ódor" anyway.

Originally posted by Muzza
Hungarian names are witten (in Hungarian) surname-first. We are writing Hungarian names as, say, in English (surname-last), adding a comment. For example:

name: Csaba Kesjár
complete name: Csaba Kesjár (in Hungarian, Kesjár Csaba)

(this has not been done yet for László Hartmann since he was born under the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, so we are not exactly sure about him... Hopefully Geza Sury or another Hungarian Atlas F1 member can clarify that)

You Hungarian is perfect, Muzza As Hartmann's mother tongue was Hungarian, the correct way to write his name is "Hartmann László." BTW, I noticed that Kesjár's birth place is missing from your website. He was born in Budapest, Hungary.

[eldougo]

;)
I am a bit late however i have justed had a look at an autograph photo of Elio de Angelis that he signed for me in 1979 and it is written Elio de Angelis .and when we first meet at Ralt Italy in 1977 for a seat fitting his breifcase had in gold letters Elio( de ) Angelis embossed into the leather. He was such a lovely person a real gentleman just like his father.So sad he has passed,I wonder what IF from time to time when i hear his name come up here on TNF.

[Lorie Coffey]

Hi. I am Elios biographer and I can answer the question once and for all. When I was with Fabiana, Elios sister in Rome last month we were going through the book making corrections and she told me that De Angelis definitely has a Large D and not a small one. I hope that this solves the argument!