14 replies to this topic

[karlth]

According to the Tour Auto regulations the "Regularity" sections of the race are defined as:

"The driver and the co-driver, remain together onboard. Their keyword is "precision". They must achieve the target time of their own choosing. This has nothing to do with speed, as the classification will be established according to the difference between the time chosen and the time achieved."

Does that mean a team specifies that it will drive from Paris to Lyon in 3:00 hours and then tries to match that time? What happens if they are a bit quicker and arrive on the outskirts of Lyon some 30 minutes before the scheduled time? Can the team simply wait 30 minutes and then drive through the end line for a perfect score?

[philippe7]

Ah, the "régularité" épreuves...a standard thing in many forms of motor racing, the Tour Auto indeed but also the Paris-Dakar rallies etc....a rather "hypocrit" way of doing things, in principle aiming at a car running the stretch of road in question in strictly the requested time , but which in fact soon ended with the competitors doing the stage as quickly as they could, and then waiting a couple of yards before the check-point to make sure that they checked in at the precise ( no later, but no sooner....) time they were expected to....

What puzzles me in your post however is the "time of their own choosing" bit...... Surely the ( almighty) organisers must have decided about the "standard" times....which often requested a very fast driving on the open road. In Enduro motorcycling ( the only form of racing I ever took part into ) the "régularité" stages were in principle meant to keep all top riders at an equal overall time ( zero penalty, in fact ) , and the race was decided in a couple of full throttle "spéciale" blast-out stages where the top riders would give it all out to make a difference......but the requested time for the "régularité" stages was set by the organisers, and let me tell you it was very hard to make the requested time for an average ( poor ) competitor !!!!

The requested times were usually set to abide the legal speed limits regulations.....usually, they would be set on a 90 kms/hour average, the maximum legal speed.....which on a twisty road in the Cévennes was definitely a hard goal to achieve....

[starlet]

The Regularity term applies only for the circuits and the special events.

The organizers propose to the competitors a low time and a high time.
Then, each crew decide the time they think to do.
If they finish the lap track or the special, a litlle bit faster or slower, they receive points of penalty.
At the end of the race, the winner is which has the less points.

And of course, outwards the time events, during the driving on the road sections, as well for the regularity than the competition, they must respect the French driving code.

[David McKinney]

starlet's definition is in accord with my understanding of rules for the present Tour, but I took karlth's question to relate to the original Tours. Surely the situation was different then?

[starlet]

The concept of regularity has been founded by the organizers, just to make participate the competitors who wanted take part in the Tour Auto, but not in the competition section, in order to not damage their beautiful cars.

[Fred Gallagher]

Originally posted by philippe7
Ah, the "régularité" épreuves...a standard thing in many forms of motor racing, the Tour Auto indeed but also the Paris-Dakar rallies etc....

I promise you Dakar has never used regularity! Long flat out special stages and very relaxed liaisons only.

Fred

[philippe7]

Originally posted by Fred Gallagher


I promise you Dakar has never used regularity! Long flat out special stages and very relaxed liaisons only.

Fred

I will take your word for that, not being an expert myself..... However I thought there was some level of "regularité" in the liaisons stages, since I read many stories of competitors waiting before the checkpoints in order not to "register" too early and get penalised....

No big deal, anyway....

[BRG]

Originally posted by philippe7
competitors waiting before the checkpoints in order not to "register" too early and get penalised....

That is not regularity in the usual sense as I understood - it just means that liaison sections are non-competitive and have a relaxed target time. There are penalties for checking in ahead of the correct time, but not ususally any for being late. The idea is that competitors trundle along through towns etc in a law-abiding and safe manner. But being competitors, they tend to rush along anyway and then have to wait!

Regularity is usually a set average speed that a crew have to maintain through a particular section. There will be secret checks en-route where their adherence to the speed is tested and penalties given for being ahead or behind the set average.

[philippe7]

That clarifies it. Thank you BRG

[D-Type]

In some of the early Safari Rallies they penalised competitors twice as heavily for arriving early as they did for lateness.

Additionally in some years as a tie breaker they had what they called an "Inside Average Section". For this section or sections the competitor chose the average they wanted and they were penalised for being late or early. Unfortunately Charles Disney doesn't say whether the penalties were the same. At that time, Safari timing was to the nearest minute but I believe it was to the second for these stages.

In other years they used other tiebreakers. My favourite was when they declared the entire harder southern (Tanzania) leg a special stage for determining ties.

[Fred Gallagher]

Originally posted by D-Type
In some of the early Safari Rallies they penalised competitors twice as heavily for arriving early as they did for lateness.

These days in WRC and other FIA events the penalty for late arrival is 10 seconds per minute, but for early arrival is 1 minute per minute. You can, off course, wait as long as you wish outside the control area.

The first Safaris I did in 1985 and 1986 were timed exclusively to the minute, just a big road rally and full pace notes for 5000 kms!

Fred

[BRG]

Originally posted by Fred Gallagher
full pace notes for 5000 kms!

At the risk of taking issue with a real co-driver, surely no-one used to have full pace notes for the old-style Safaris? I thought they were more like "bump notes" - only noting the roughest bits, the wash-outs, and so on. With full detailed notes for 5000kms of route, wouldn't you need a trailer to carry all the volumes?

[Fred Gallagher]

I think in the early days (up to the mid 70s maybe) they were more like bump notes. When I first competed in 1985 Juha Kankkunen and I recced the entire route twice and had pace notes literally all the way. The road book was in a bag by my feet. What we might think of as the road sections on asphalt had averages of around 110 kph and that was where you had to make up time for tyres and fuel!

It continued like that until my last of that era - 1992 with Waldegard in the Lancia. When I went back in 1998 (with Vatanen) and 1999 (Solberg) it was like a stage rally; notes on the competitive sections and road book and easy averages between.

Fred

[BRG]

Fred

Thanks - this probably explains why you were sitting next to world champions, whilst I got no further than the odd national rally! I would never have had the patience or commitment to recce and pace-note 5000kms of African bush road. I barely used to mark up my maps - just the odd pencilled arrow at a junction!

[Fred Gallagher]

In 1990 the road was blocked in the night and we and Biasion/Siviero ended up having something like a road rally off the maps. We went completely different ways at one point and rejoined almost together 20 kms later! Fun times.

Fred