17 replies to this topic

[Macca]

[Macca]

Just making sure of getting the pictures working first. OK.

When Ferrari first tested the V8 engine before the 1963 Italian GP, it had central intakes, rather than between the camshafts as it was raced when the slimmer 1964 model came out. I can't find a picture on the web other than this model, and the one below of the first car at Modena, but I've seen pictures with both long intakes (hence the higher 'hump' than the V6 version raced at Monza 1963) and in testing at Monza with short broad intake trumpets.

I've checked all the usual sources - 'Motor Sport' & 'Motor Racing' for 1963 and 1964, 'Ferrari:The Grand Prix Cars', 'Ferrari' 6th edn. by Tanner/DCN, article in Autocar in late 1964 about the 158, and DCN's 'GP Cars 1945-65', but haven't found anything about what was wrong with the original layout and why they changed it.

The only other Ferrari racing engines of the period to have that layout were the 1966-67 36-valve F1 V12 and the 330/P4, and they did revert back to central intakes afterwards.

Does anybody know any more? I asked John Surtees on friday at the FoS, but he couldn't remember, only that he wished they hadn't bothered and had gone straight to the flat-12.

Paul M



This is the first V8 in 1963...



and a model of the 1964 car.

[GIGLEUX]

First tests at Modena 1963. The 158 Aero's engine with the inlet trumpets inside the V.

[GIGLEUX]

In 1964 Ferrari used short trumpeys on the 158 engine.



And in 1965, long trumpets, always between the camshafts.





Bandini at the Karussell during the 1965 German GP.

[Roger Clark]

AS far as I can remember, the first engine to have the inlet ducts between the valves was the pre-war BMW, which developed into the Bristol. Mercedes also used the principle on the M196. It enjoyed considerable popularity in the mid-60s, being used by BRM, Honda and Ford among others. There were two reasons usually given for this design.

Firstly packaging, keeping the exhausts away from the monocoque extensions and allowing linking of exhausts from the two cylinder banks in a more elegant way than used by Climax on the FWMV. This clearly didn't apply to the Ferrari 158.

The second reason given was that it allowed a straighter inlet duct than a conventional design. This may be the reason that Ferrai used it.

THe design became less popular after 1967, foloing the trend, inspied by Duckworth and Weslake, for much narrower valve angles. This left no room for inlet ducts between the valves and I am sure is the reason that Ferrari abandoned it.

[Gary Davies]

Gigleux, lovely picture of the 158 at the Karussell. I can just see that car in dark blue with a white stripe around the nose!

[Macca]

Thanks for those pictures, Gigleux, and the explanation, Roger. All the magazines of the time said there were doubts about the reliability of the new V8 engine before Monza, but they put so much effort into making new castings to adapt the 123deg V6 to fit the Aero chassis (and then ironically it blew up in the GP) that there would seem to have been probable power deficiencies too.

The Autocar article had a drawing of a supposed section of the 1964 engine and a comparison with the D50, and the between-the-cams inlet certainly looked to have a smoother passage.

But the 'spaghetti-exhaust' 36-valve engine of 1967 had two inlet valves between the cams, whereas the 48-valve version at Monza had them outside the inlet camshaft; surely the included valve angle must have been the same?

Anyway, here are a couple of the 158 at Goodwood:






Paul M

[P4Replica]

Not wishing to 'rub salt' into old wounds, Macca ....

But wouldn't you agree that (apart from the different bolted-on end castings) that the gearbox fitted to this 158F1 bears a remarkable resemblance to the one being used in a certain Ferrari P4 'restoration' ?

Photos of this other gearbox were posted at:

http://ferrarichat.c...ead.php?t=18751 and also halfway down:

http://ferrarichat.c...5&page=13&pp=20

[Vicuna]

Did all 158s have blue wheels?

[R.W. Mackenzie]

Are the pictures off-line for some reason?

I can't see them or open them.

Bob Mackenzie

[Macca]

R.W.,

It seems the daily bandwidth on my picture host has been exceeded - not by me, so maybe lots of people are hitting or downloading my pics (it would take 170-200 hits a day to do that). I don't know about Gigleux's images.




P4R (or Cogn. or P4Staff as the case may be)

This is a very polite and learned forum, in which personalities never become an issue.

I'll post all the other images and relevant quotations when possible, so that people can judge for themselves without getting mired.


Paul M

[Macca]

Vicuna,
I don't have my books handy, but IIRC the first version of the 158, the 1963 prototype with the central intakes (which was converted to have a V6 engine) had gold wheels for the last few races of 1963.

For 1964 the new slimmer 158 had a new pattern of wheels which was used on the 158 and 1512 in 1964 and 1965, and also on the 1966 2.4L-engined car that Bandini, Scarfiotti and Baghetti drove in various GPs (s/n 0006, the actual car Surtees drove at Goodwood).

The Aero 156 that was run in 1964 and in which Bandini won the Austrian GP was run with blue wheels at Brands and Zeltweg.


In view of the copyright isuue, I will not post pictures that have been previously posted on another site; so.......

1. This is the gearbox of a Ferrari being rebuilt in the USA:-
http://ferrarichat.c...tid=43583&stc=1

2. This is the gearbox that was in the first Ferrari 330/P3 at the factory press launch in early 1966:-
http://ferrarichat.c...tid=49366&stc=1

3. This is the 1966 Ferrari F1 gearbox, seen here fitted to the 1968 250/P5 showcar with a 1966 36-valve V12 F1 engine:-
http://ferrarichat.c...tid=47158&stc=1

4. And this is the 1964-54 gearbox in the Ferrari 1.5L 158: (copyright Paul M 2004 - feel free to use it anytime, anywhere if it makes you happy) -



So 1 and 2 look identical; 3 has a different backplate and more bolts on the top, and the ribs look deeper; and 4 is a different much lighter 'box of a similar shape, as you'd expect from the same designer. In 'Motor Racing' magazine for April 1966 there was an article about the P3 and 206S titled "Ferrari's Functional Sports-Racers" by 'Coche'; re the P3, quote: "....The gearbox-differential is a five-speed unit based on a type experimented with success on the 1965 F1 cars. The clutch is a triple-plate Borg and Beck. Girling disc brakes are mounted at the wheels in front, and inboard, flanking the gearbox, at the rear."



Paul M

[R.W. Mackenzie]

Macca,

Thanks for the reply. I tried to see the pictures on my computer at work today and was able to see the two from Goodwood and a couple of others but not all of them. I'm really interested in the gearbox because I'm in the process of restoring my brother's old Monogram 1:32 158 slot car and the gearbox piece is missing so I'm going to try to scratch-build something. So the Goodwood shots will be really helpful. I'll keep trying to see the others.

Bob Mackenzie

[pertti_jarla]

I would like to scratch build a V8 engine for the 1964 Ferrari 158, but I just can't find any drawings or even very good photos. Could anyone recommend a book/magazine, something??

[Macca]

Here is an amazing 1/43 model:
http://www.robertoca...ily_news158.htm

and here's one I took of a real car at Goodwood:



Paul M

Edited by Macca, 22 August 2009 - 18:05.

[pertti_jarla]

Thanks a lot! That is the best engine photo I've seen so far. And the kit photos are so good, I could use them as a base.

[macoran]

Is this the "Aero" ?

[pertti_jarla]

Is this the "Aero" ?

Oh yes! Great cutaway. Lots of dead photolinks on this thread, by the way.