29 replies to this topic

[uwe_sautter]

Hi guys,
Jochen Rindt had a huge crash at the GP Spain 69 Grand Prix.
I know his high rear wing is broken. Has anybody information
and pics. Why nobody warning him I think the wing are bend before.

[Gary C]

.............and what about Graham Hill's accident just before, or was that 68 Spanish??

[uwe_sautter]

Hi Gary,
right he crashed at the same event with a broken rear wing.
Do Colin Chapman sleep ?

[Vitesse2]

Uwe: this accident is well documented in both Graham Hill's "Life at the Limit" and Heinz Pruller's "Jochen Rindt".

In a nutshell, high wings were very much "the in thing" at the time. Chapman being Chapman, he had to have the biggest and what he thought were the best! Unfortunately, while the forces which the wings generated were reasonably well understood, the forces which acted on the wings themselves were probably under-estimated by the designers.

At one of the fastest parts of the circuit, Hill's car suddenly went out of control, bounced off the guardrail and spun down the road at great speed: Graham was no more than a passenger. Bits of Lotus were scattered all over the track - Graham could not immediately work out what had happened, since there were no obvious breakages in the car which could have caused it. He then switched his attention to Jochen's car and noticed the beginnings of a crease in the rear wing! The Lotus mechanics had arrived by this time and Graham sent one of them back to the pits to warn Chapman, while going himself to the slow hairpin in order to try to warn Jochen. Sadly, it was too late, since, at almost exactly the same spot, the rear wing on Rindt's car folded in the centre and he had an almost identical accident, although his was much more serious since he hit the wreckage of Hill's car and was launched over the barrier and landed upside-down. Hill and a number of helpers managed to right the car, but it was badly bent "like a banana" - eventually they got Jochen out and he escaped with a broken cheekbone and a hairline skull fracture.

Hill notes that Brabhams also had problems with wings at Barcelona: they had built one out of (unbelievably!) fibreglass, which conveniently shattered right in front of the CSI representatives. These two incidents can be seen as the direct cause of the high wing ban instituted at Monaco.

[Macca]

This incident is covered in great detail, with full pictures, in 'Lotus 49' by our Michael Oliver.

Chapman kept adding bits to the wings at Barcelona, two extensions to the ends made out of foam and glassfibre and then out of spare aluminium, and then a big trim tab on the trailing edge. Every addition made the car faster, and made him want to put more on, until the wing was wider than the car.

The extensions put so much bending load on the aerofoil (which was made from aluminium sheet over ribs, with no transverse structure) that it folded UPWARDS in the middle in both cases.



Paul M

[Twin Window]

This is the beginning of Rindt's shunt, just after the crest...



As already described, Hill had crashed at the same place shortly beforehand. The same spot was to come back to haunt him six years later, IMMSMC.

SKiD

[D-Type]

Interesting.

The photo shows no crease and no extensions on the end of the wing. It looks more as though a strut has given way.

It is a long time since I read Life at the Limit and I haven't read either of the other two books so I am talking purely about this photo.

[Twin Window]

D-Type

If you look at the left-side rear wheel (our left) you will notice a section of wing that is perpendicular to it. IMMSMC the three different shades of material visible; the darkest being the original element, and the other two shades are the extensions as previouly described Paul.

Hope that helps!

SKiD

[Keir]

I'm probably one of the few people who is still in awe of the "great winged wonder" F1 cars.

While I will admit I like the look of the '67 F1 best of all, you can't but marvel at the "high wing" era cars. Even the '69 Formula A cars that ran in the USA looked good with their "wings" flying.

[Cirrus]

Glassfibre wings weak? Surely not

[swintex]

This picture from Graham Hill's "Life at the Limit"

appears to show the wing on Hill's car folding in the same place but in the opposite direction.

There appears to be a stay from the roll bar to the wing strut, most noticable in the Rindt photo and possibly flapping in the breeze on Hill's car. Rindt's wing strut looks to have collapsed just above this stay attachment.

Despite Hill's account of a crease in the underside of Rindt's wing, I can't help wondering if these failures were due to the struts collapsing. I don't think you'd describe Rindt's wing as having folded in half, as Hill does if you had only seen that photo.

I seem to recall a wing failure on Rindt's car during practice for the Race of Champions that year, and my impression then was that it fell over backwards. Mind you, I was only 12 and it was my first motor race.

Edit: I've just noticed the photo is credited to Pascal Ickx

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Cirrus
Glassfibre wings weak? Surely not

Ron and Jacky seem remarkably unconcerned!

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Ron and Jacky seem remarkably unconcerned!

First photo I've ever seen of Ron actually smiling !!!

[Paul Taylor]

Ron Tauranac, is that?

[Twin Window]

Paul

Ron's the chap on the far left, in the background.

SKiD

[LittleChris]

The man's influence is massively under-rated in my opinion

[tom1971]

Heres a video from Hills crash and the Aftermath from the Rindt accident
http://www.megspace....69barcelona.wmv

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by swintex
This picture from Graham Hill's "Life at the Limit"

appears to show the wing on Hill's car folding in the same place but in the opposite direction.

There appears to be a stay from the roll bar to the wing strut, most noticable in the Rindt photo and possibly flapping in the breeze on Hill's car. Rindt's wing strut looks to have collapsed just above this stay attachment.

Despite Hill's account of a crease in the underside of Rindt's wing, I can't help wondering if these failures were due to the struts collapsing. I don't think you'd describe Rindt's wing as having folded in half, as Hill does if you had only seen that photo.

I seem to recall a wing failure on Rindt's car during practice for the Race of Champions that year, and my impression then was that it fell over backwards. Mind you, I was only 12 and it was my first motor race.

Edit: I've just noticed the photo is credited to Pascal Ickx

I have a photo which was used in my Lotus 49 book, quite clearly showing the crease developing just inside the right wing strut (right being if you were sitting in the car). It was caused by the extra pressure from the wing extensions. The strut did fold up just above where the bracing stay from the roll-over bar was attached but I would imagine this occurred after the initial "fold-up". Both cars experienced failures in the same part of the wing, although as you rightly pointed out, one folded down. I could be wrong but a quick study of Hill's wing suggests that he didn't have the extra extensions that Rindt had (although he ran them in practice and they sagged badly, so perhaps this was why they were removed). However, he did have an extra Gurney flap in the centre of the wing, so perhaps this contributed towards his wing collapsing inwards, whereas the pressure from the extensions meant Rindt's collapsed outwards. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any sequence of photos of the Rindt crash, and even David Phipp's sequence begins with Hill's wing already collapsed and the car sliding sideways.

You are right that Rindt did have a wing failure at the RoC. From the photos I have (again, there is one in my book) it appears to have collapsed sideways rather than backwards. It was at this meeting (on Hill's car) that the bracing stays connecting the wing struts to the roll-over bar first appeared. Presumably the mechanics didn't have enough material left over to make any for Rindt's car, since his ran without them and with a wing which was not as tall!

I'm sorry that I cannot post photos, as I don't have all of them any more. If I can find some, I'll try to send them to someone who can post them!

[WDH74]

I remember reading (possibly in Michael's book) that part of the reason for the failures in Spain was the crest the cars came over, just prior to the accident site for the two Lotusesesses...Loti.
The reversal in air pressure was quite severe at this point, which was compounded by the various extensions on the wings themselves. The whole airfoil would flex in the middle, about where Hill's and Rindt's collapsed. I do know that earlier photos of both Hill and Rindt show the extensions sagging badly and creasing starting in the center of the wings.

-William

[swintex]

Thanks for the reply Michael, I shall obviously have to get your book now I know there's a picture of the Rindt wing failure from the RoC

[Ray Bell]

Hill had other 'sideways' collapses of his 49 aerofoil... I particularly remember seeing it at Lakeside.

Could the upward bending of Hill's evident in the photo above be due to wind pressure changing it once it collapsed?

[Macca]

I was posting without looking at the pictures in Michael's book; it does look as though Graham's folded downwards, but Jochen's definitely folded up just inside the right-hand post, as can be seen in another picture I've seen of him taking the hairpin with the crease visible.

At Kyalami the wings were swaying sideways and touching the tyres, which eroded and weakened the struts, I believe. I don't know whether the same thing happened at Lakeside or Brands.

Once the aerofoil starts pushing (or pulling)other than perpendicularly, anything can happen, which is why the struts appear to have failed in the Barcelona photos; that was secondary failure.

There couldn't be any reversal in air pressure or load direction unless the car took up an angle of attack greater than the downward AoA of the wing, ie if the wing was angled 5 deg down the car would have to be at least 5 deg up at the nose to generate lift. The rear wheels would only come off the track if the angular momentum of the sprung weight created by the curve of the hill-brow was greater than the download provided by the wing and the car reached the top limit of suspension travel.

What would break a wing of marginal strength would be the shock loading of landing, I think.

I didn't appreciate until seeing that video just how banana'd the tub was, and how lucky Jochen was not to get leg injuries. No wonder the Lotus mechanics found that nobody could actually get into it afterwards; Jochen must have had rubber legs.


Paul M

[Macca]

Found this website and picture:

http://home.planet.n...251/index2.html

which seems to show Hill's Lakeside failure.

That looks similar to the Kyalami failure, with the struts swaying sideways and rubbing on the tyres.




Paul M

[SEdward]

Fitting in nicely with the above picture of Ickx and Tauranac, I'm sure I've seen pictures of at least Ickx's Brabham with folding wings in practice for the very same race.

That should have rung a few alarm bells. But it didn't.

Edward

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Macca
Found this website and picture:

http://home.planet.n...251/index2.html

Does anyone know the story behind GH attending to the driver who's crashed, two pics of which can be found by following the G Hill link on the above page?

It looks like Crystal Palace to me, circa '68, but I don't remember seeing the accident before.

Twinny

[swintex]

It does look like Crystal Palace, I think these two pictures follow on from the the previous one of Graham looking at the wheel-less right rear corner of the Lotus 59?.

There is a picture in "Life at the Limit" of Graham coming up the hill being overtaken by this wheel.

[tombe]

Those pics appeared in Road & Track.
Don't remember the circuit, but IIRC the driver is Alex Soler-Roig.

[Reyna]

Yes, the ciruit is Crystal Palace (1968) and the driver is Alex Soler-Roig with the Lola T100-8 Ford FVA .
He crashed at the 65 lap, two laps after Hill's accident at the same corner.


Rafa

[swintex]

David Phipps' picture from "Life at the Limit"

[Gary C]

.....................and I reckon I know the guy who actually owns Mr.Hill's errant wheel in the above pic !!