45 replies to this topic

[vsubravet]

Looking at the results of the current season I honestly feel that Williams is one team that has vastly underperformed. Given the quiet degree of confidence they had displayed all throughout the winter testing, I'm surprised they've been out-performed by both Renault and BAR. The FW26, with its radical nose, and the consistently powerful BMW engine (probably having the biggest grunt on the F1 grid) looked a sure-fire winner but half-way through the season the team is languishing with 37 points. Even McLaren, with their Minardi-like season performance, are having 22 points and Williams are not that far off. McLaren, we knew, before the season started had delivered a 'lemon' and so its performance was alng expected lines but Williams? Just can't figure out how they have dropped off so dramatically. Maybe the points loss at Canada and US have hurt them but at no circuit did they look like a winner. Is there something more than meets the eye?

[Happs]

The car's aero is crap, especially the **** walrus front wing.

Michelin are only good over one lap and go to crap.

Bad strategy decisions, especially from Sam Michael lately.

That's my view on it.

[tripleM]

IMO in 1 word ** CHANGES **:

1) New Nose (which I think is kool) has caused changes in other areas that they haven't dialed in yet.

2) Bad assumptions. They thought they had made a big enough jump towards Ferrari based on 2003 when in reality, Ferrari just had an off year. Then every1 else leap forwards & in some cases past Williams.

3) Michelin are inconsistent this year & is maginfied on the Williams new chassis which relates to #1 above.v Whereas, Bridgstones had an off year last year & seems back on pace this year.

4) Drivers are very indifferent towards team since they won't be both retained.

5) Sam Michaels, Patrick Head & Frank Williams have mistmanaged various sitations this year.

All in all, like anything else in life, the assumptions & choices we make will always be second guessed if things don't go according to plan...

Hopefully, this will be a watershed year for the turnaround next year!

[klover]

And the engine is probably no longer the best on the grid, or definitely doesn't have the advantage it used to.

[kismet]

In the last four GPs Williams-BMW has netted a grand total of 2 WCC points. Ouch!

[masterhit]

No idea. Until they know, we won't.

[pkrash]

Drivers.
Both are leaving and should have been replaced at the start of the season.

[Zeus]

I think Williams decided last year that a radical approach was needed to beat Ferrari. To their credit they gambled, but unfortunately they came up snake-eyes with that mostrosity of a car, and tack on solutions are only making it worse.

I expect them, like I expect McLaren, to get back to their winning ways, because these two teams have proven they can do just that in the past. So far McLaren have deeply disappointed me on that count.

[arthurive]

Originally posted by pkrash
Drivers.
Both are leaving and should have been replaced at the start of the season.

Spot on.
Nobody else has mentioned this. Frank should have let Montoya go as soon as the deal
with McLaren became a reality (what, late last summer?). There were other drivers that were
available last summer that could've stepped into Montoya's boots.
Regarding Ralf, it was clear last year that his performance was dropping off last year.

An infusion of hungry new drivers would've energized Williams for 2004.

[Vilenova]

Alot of things are wrong at Williams. :

First and foremost are the drivers. monty is fast but his testing duties have been reduced. less seat time in the car is not good at this level.
Ralf has always been fast but lately with his big shunts will he be the same?
If they knew about Montoya leaving they should have released him immediatly. He's not getting any testing in I guess because of the secrecy concerning new developements on the car.

They are using test drivers on race weekends....sorry but Gene "might" be a decent tester but if he was a good racer he would already be on a team. And Pizzonia, who the hell knows.

You can't run a top F1 team using test drivers and expect any consistent showings or pace for that matter. And you can't limit your fastest driver to arive and drive on friday.

Now is Williams perfect chance to get someone in the damm car for next year. Someone who will test AND race THIS year.

I think the Williams car has the pace. They need someone fast and motivated to do the job for them.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

I have a strong feeling that Villeneuve and Webber will be in the Williams' seats next year. I think those two men will perform better than the 2004 showing by RS and JPM. I think Jacques' new found hunger will drive the team and Webber will be keep to match him thus culminating in healthy results. Still expect Ferrari to win though by a healthy margin.

[JVattack]

Drivers...Just like another poster said. They are leaving and shouldn't have driven the car this year.

[FastMex]

For 7 straight years since 1998, the Williams F1 team has been way out of contention. Many reasons, including driver line-up inconsistency (Zanardi, Button), keeping a not top-caliber driver way too long (Ralf). IMO Williams failure lies primarily in the slow bleeding they have sustained regarding designers/engineers (ie. Geoff Willis, etc.). I mean, JPM cannot do it all on his own, that's why he's jumping ship!

[Zeus]

I'm not buying this driver theory. That is Team Toyota style management, look at where it's gotten them. RS & JPM are as fast as any 2 drivers on the grid, and both have all the incentive they need- the chance to win races. The car however shares something in common with 8 other teams this year: it is no match for the SF.

[powertrain]

A) Management problems. Sam Michaels replacing Patrick Head, especially midway in the year was perhaps not the smartest thing to do.

B) BMW, and more specifically Mario Thiessen and his people. They seem to be taking over the team. I suspect this is the reason why Patrick Head decided to avoid the race track and head back to the factory. I also sense conlfict over the management and selection of the drivers. BMW should focus on developing their engine and marketing and let Williams and Head run the team.

C) The car: handles poorly in the races, it needs work.

D) The drivers: Ralf has lost self-confidence (and his latest accident won't help him) and Montoya isn't putting in as much time testing, and he's overdriving the car.

[Arrow]

The problem is that the car is a tank.Which is leading to one driver over driving and the other under driving.
What are they? 5th best now? Sheesh.

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by powertrain

I suspect this is the reason why Patrick Head decided to avoid the race track and head back to the factory. I also sense conlfict over the management and selection of the drivers.

Patrick Head was at Magny-Cours on race day, despite the earlier statements. Whether or not there is conflict, this is a hint that Williams has lost its way. When that happens, it goes from top to bottom in a team.

[wawawa]

I'm puzzled by the poor rate of development at Williams. Everyone was caught out by the staggering improvement Ferrari had made over the winter (aided by Bridgestone's clever split-development that lulled everyone), but the fact is that Williams began the season with the second best car and have struggled to maintain that position. They have been overtaken by Renault, BAR and possibly even McLaren now. The drivers - even though they haven't covered themselves with glory on the racetrack - have every right to be critical of the pace of development.

Perhaps Williams put a lot of effort in the initial development of the FW-26 and estimated that they would start the season with a substantial lead over the rest - they could then bring in improvements relatively gradually to keep them ahead. IIRC, they employed this kind of tactic in 1992 and 1997 in particular. I don't think this is a good explanation, though. More likely, the new concept of the FW-26 has confused the development team to the extent that they have not been able to come up with developments quick enough. If so, Williams should perhaps write off this season and use it as an extended test session to understand the new concepts in preparation for 2005. But that's when Mad Max's brand new rules kick in ;)

[lukywill]

disaster is the word. it should be a jpm-ms-rs-rb fight to the end of the season.

we don´t even have a ms-rb fight.

williams stays behind renault and bar these days.

tyre gate and a big flop for the fw26 explains it.

05 will be the same or worst. unless there´s some surprise. new wind tunel, new drivers, new what?!

anyway the bet was strong at melbourne 04. it just didn't work this year. :/

[Ghostrider]

Williams seems to have gone downhill since Willis left, and after having seen what he has done with BAR, I can see why.

Head used to say that Willis ran the aerodynamics department like an "old cotton factory" or whatever, in a kind of derogatory way Head meant it, but I wonder if they shouldn't have kept that way after all.

[ViMaMo]

One word: Walrus and the twin keel.

Mclaren had every reason to go radical because their design had pretty much stagnated. But they went overboard. Misjugdement.

Williams had no reason to go radical, they pulled one off in 2003 and almost had a forgettable first half until Monaco and they almost had the WDC. They could have worked on a evolution for 2004 before trying anything radical again. Williams had a pretty good advantage toward the end of the season. The new car partly responsible for performance of the Michelins this season ???

Just my opinion... as good/bad as any.

[Zeus]

Tiregate is a lousy excuse. Williams' relative performance has worsened since the start of the season.

[Tuxy]

Originally posted by vivian
One word: Walrus and the twin keel.

Mclaren had every reason to go radical because their design had pretty much stagnated. But they went overboard. Misjugdement.

Williams had no reason to go radical, they pulled one off in 2003 and almost had a forgettable first half until Monaco and they almost had the WDC. They could have worked on a evolution for 2004 before trying anything radical again. Williams had a pretty good advantage toward the end of the season. The new car partly responsible for performance of the Michelins this season ???

Just my opinion... as good/bad as any.

100% agree Williams had no reason to go radical. They should had continue to develop their 2003 car.

[ChessNH]

I'm getting sick of JV getting a drive in everything, Toyota, BMW, JAG, or Renault he had one good year with Williams and had a perfect car, moved to BAR and can't develop car while getting massive payment and he is gone, he sucked end of story.

Please don't flame me these are my ideas not a discussion point

[zak]

The car obviously has problems. My thought is that they must have done hundreds of hours in the wind tunnel with the twin keel and new nose and it must have tested better than the prevous design. If they were trying something so radical wouldn't they have done dual development, just in case it didn't work?

They had a proven design for last year. It may not have been the best, but it was OK at least. Would it have been possible to keep an evolution of last years nose kicking around if needed? I know they couldn't switch it quickly, but they've obviously been working on the walrus for quite a while. If its a turd, quit trying to polish it and move on.

[BARnone]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the Williams drivers. They are amongst the two best on the grid.

The problem seems to be one that McLaren has and that BAR seems to have addressed this year - the gap between engine manufacturers and the aero team. Whether it's a lack of coordination or poor communication. It's no accident that Ferrari and Renault are the two top teams.

BARnone.

[lukywill]

Originally posted by Zeus
Tiregate is a lousy excuse. Williams' relative performance has worsened since the start of the season.

indeed, they shine at susuka.

[fingers]

Get rid of the stupid nose I keep saying it and maybe they won't listen but it doesn't matter because Williams have done a fantastic job of messing up their performance almost as bad as McLaren.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

They had a good thing going with the Fw25, infact it was widely considered, and voted by F1 Racing readers and journos/contributors as best car of '03.
They should have continued with a -25 evo...but what do i know anyways... :

[tifosi]

The car is horrible with massive amounts of understeer due to that pice of crap front nose. Fans here praise it because it is "radical", which just goes to prove the ignorance is bliss theory. That concept has been tried and discarded by several teams, not least of which was Ferrari. The twin keel is far to heavy, adding 11 kilos. That's 11 kilos that can no longer be used for ballast. In addition, if you see the thread about the "hammerhead" when it first came out, I commented on whether it would pass the crash tests. Other posters laughed me out of the thread, but in fact it took ANOTHER 13 kilos of structure to pass the crash test due to the inherent weakness of the front end design. This is now an incredible 24 kilos of ballast (about half of a top line F1 car) lost due to this very inefficiant design. The aero gains were not even close to making up for this difference.

[Cojayar]

Originally posted by Vilenova
Alot of things are wrong at Williams. :

....sorry but Gene "might" be a decent tester but if he was a good racer he would already be on a team.

That's why Vilenova, sorry Villeneuve is already on a team, isn't it?

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

As Vivian said above, Williams should have developed the 2003 FW25 model, IMO it would have been on par with the Ferraris. I mean the F2004 is effectively an evolution of the F2001 model, the time when these current design rules came into play. Look closely and you'll notice that over the last 4 years the design of the Ferrari hasnt altered that much at all.
Williams should have made an evolution of their design instead of this walrus type thing they have now. If Williams are smart, then they will stick to this design (albeit perfect it by the end of 2004) and then hone it even further over the winter thus creating something familiar for the guys to work with. I'm willing to bet £100 that the F2005 Ferrari looks 95% similiar to the F2004 model. Why? Because continuation and familiarity brings success eventually. Williams need to copy the Ferrari ethic in regards to design and continuation. Mclaren managed it and were very succesful with the 17B.

[Slatz]

Williams claimed that there was very little room for improvement in the FW25. They developed the car massively during the 03 season and considering the lawof diminishing returns Williams thought they wouldn't be able to reap the major leaps forward that they needed to be competitive in 04.

So they went for an all new design. The FW26 was immediately quicker than FW25 when launched. But Ralf quickly commented that even during winter testing they had been unable to improve from the initial base. That seems to be the continuing trend. All the other teams have improved faster than Williams, and Ralf and (particularly) JPM have been complaining about that all season.

BMW have lost their power advantage but most teams seem to agree that the power differential between the top five engines is very small. The performance differences are coming from aero, chassis and tyres.

Regarding the drivers - JPM has shown excellent commitment this seaosn despite his impending departure. Ralf has (unsuprisiningly) had a lucklustre season except for Canada. Another driver may have scored a few more points, butthe pace of the car has obviously been down and changing driviers wouldn't have fixed that.

I expect they'll go better at Silverstone.

[wawawa]

Originally posted by vivian
One word: Walrus and the twin keel.

Where did you learn to count?;)

[wawawa]

Originally posted by vivian
Williams had no reason to go radical

By the way, according to Patrick Head, the FW-26 wasn't/isn't radical - just a logical development of the FW-25. I remember reading one of Craig Scarborough's articles to that effect too.

[boost]

The drivers seem to be complaining the lack of speed and updates.
Gene who does the tests said after the french gp he needed more speed.
He would be ideally placed to say that because in a race situation you compare yourself the the person in front performace wise.

[ViMaMo]

Originally posted by wawawa

Where did you learn to count?;)

very observant.

Radical may be the wrong word according to Head but changing from single keel to twin keel is not radical enough?

Wind tunnel results proved that its better than the FW25 but how could they underestimate the extra weight that would result? Thats a gross error from Williams.

The F2004 is similar externally (to the F2003 and F2002) but internally, it must have changed a lot. Suspension geometry, chassis, gearbox... . Its easier to bring updates to the aerodynamic components, track specific changes, gains are few compared to the gains made by better tyres, a lighter chassis, lighter gearbox, better mechanical grip from new suspension geometry and chassis made in winter.

FW25 was strong at the core, they brought about some changes to the suspension before Monaco last year, and it worked wonders.

Williams lost big time due to the weight of the twin keel and whatever aerodynamic gains they made on the FW25 is compromised.

The weight of the twin keel is the biggest factor. Not aerodynamics or anything else. And that has not been addressed or can't be changed easily. So whatever aero changes they bring about is not helping them much.

I might be wrong.

[Jhope]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Williams seems to have gone downhill since Willis left, and after having seen what he has done with BAR, I can see why.

Explain the FW25 then.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by Jhope
Explain the FW25 then.

Willis had already drawn it but forgot to take the drawings with him to BAR?

[OG1]

I believe the atmosphere at Williams is just not good. Geoff Willis leaves and does wonders at BAR . I am willing to bet that Ralf will do well if he joins Toyota , ditto Montoya at McLaren .

I cant for the life of me imagine why Williams choose to share their pit to car radio conversations with the media?Isnt that private stuff. Other teams seem to hide intra team conflicts well . And what s with chastising Ralf and Montoya in the press by Patrick Head ? Only Williams' rivals gain from this. Williams always lose a race before the cars hit the track.

[Jhope]

Originally posted by Ghostrider


Willis had already drawn it but forgot to take the drawings with him to BAR?

Willis went on "gardening leave" half way through the design of the FW25.

[powertrain]

Originally posted by ChessNH
I'm getting sick of JV getting a drive in everything, Toyota, BMW, JAG, or Renault he had one good year with Williams and had a perfect car, moved to BAR and can't develop car while getting massive payment and he is gone, he sucked end of story. Please don't flame me these are my ideas not a discussion point

Opinion should be based on facts. If you don't want to be flamed perhaps you should get your facts straight: JV had 3 good years at Williams, and as for developing a car, if you bother do a little research, he always got praise by his teams for his technical input.

[Henri Greuter]

What's wrong with williams:

A lot is already stated by other posters but in combination:
Starting the 4th seaon in a row with two drivers with hardly, if any respect for one and another. And even worse: starting the 4th season together after their frustration of knowing they missed a golde opportunity to win the titles last year. Then, both drivers ain't happy with the team anymore since both feel that the other is favored over themselves. One of them already signed a contract to leave after 2004 with another team.
Then: One driver hardly talks with one of the highest ranked engineer.
Then: Changes within the leadership when longtime supremo "Head" wants to take a backseat and the replacement not being there yet if it comes to leadership of the entire team.
Add to that a car with a rather radical concept within its design.

On top of that: instead of being competive inmediately and continuing the the way up that started last year they are beaten devastatingly by Ferrari yet again instantly, what surely must have done wonders for the motivation of both drivers who already were more focussed on themselves and their wages already in additions to their worries that the other is favored yet again.


Henri Greuter

[Vrba]

As in every company, the answer is very simple: those with most responsibility and competence are to be blamed - it's the management and nobody else.

Hrvoje

[tripleM]

Originally posted by Vrba
As in every company, the answer is very simple: those with most responsibility and competence are to be blamed - it's the management and nobody else.

Hrvoje

Well said: the success & failure of any organization begins @ the top.

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by OG1

I cant for the life of me imagine why Williams choose to share their pit to car radio conversations with the media?Isnt that private stuff. Other teams seem to hide intra team conflicts well .

My understanding is that everyone is unscrambled now, since the team orders ban.