35 replies to this topic

[Hungry Hippo]

I have a question for everyone, and if it has already been asked please forgive.

What type of race track do you most enjoy watching F1, or any race series run on? Is it something fast like Monza, where before it was widdled down to nothing it was all about high speed and overtaking? Or do you prefer something like Monaco where where it's in the city and everything is so close together, and speeds are much slower.

Secondly, haven't the current F1 cars outgrown the 2 or 3 mile tracks they currently race on? A perfect example is the new track in Bahrain. With all the space the was avaliable to build on, why didn't the make a track that was 7 or 8 miles long? It would have been pretty cool to see cars disappering into the desert only to reappear a short while later. Have you ever seen the movie Lawrence of Arabia? Remember the scene at the well when there is a rider in the distance but no one can make out who he is until he gets a lot closer. Watch that scene if you get a chance and imagine the rider is a group of cars headed right for your place in the stands. The view would be pretty neat.

[George Bailey]

I prefer half mile ovals. That way you can see all the cars all day without having to turn your head.


I believe I had read the overall length of current F1 tracks are fixed below a certain value for safety reasons - so the medical car(s) would never be more than X distance from a potential crash, and the crash would never be more than Y from the track hospital or helicopter, or whatever.

[HBoss]

I'd say I perfer a street circuit like Adelaide, with some slow and tight corners but also with a long straight good for overtaking. I always thought it was incredible to see those cars drive so fast in streets in which normal people in normal cars would never get close to what those F1 cars did. And of course, having the crowd so close helped create an amazing atmosphere, as if the crowd trully was a part of the spectacle.

Another track that I loved was the old Hockenheim, but for completely different reasons. There the cars would get lost in the woods, almost as if they were alone. It seemed to me as if the huge straights took the cars and drivers to a remote and distance place only to bring them back once again.

Those were two very different tracks which I loved for very different reasons.

[SpeakerGuru]

Altitude changes like at Spa-Francorchamps and great, if not even majestic, natural scenery such as at A-1 Ring. Drop Spa's track into the Austrian mountains and you've got a spectacular setting for a race, IMO.

Although Spa is just fine as-is. Damn glad to have it back on the schedule!

[Witt]

Normally as newer technologies are developed, human engineering gets better. It been the complete opposite for circuit building. The best purpose built circuit was constructed in the 1920s, and it's all been down hill from there. To answer the question, the best type of circuit would be approximately 14 miles long, and approximately 174 corners that go up and down. And to think such a circuit actually exists, and the powers that be choose not to use it for the pinnicle of the sport. Such a shame that the Nurburgring got thrown in Bernie's 'too hard to deal with' basket.

On a more realistic note, circuits like Hockenheim (pre-2001), Spa, Monza, Interlagos, and Monaco, circuits so characteristically opposed to the homogenised Herman Tilke circuits are the most we can hope for these days. These are the circuits that are interesting, unpredictable, and offer a challenge to man and machine if for no other reason than because they are/were unique.

[Witt]

Originally posted by SpeakerGuru
Altitude changes like at Spa-Francorchamps and great, if not even majestic, natural scenery such as at A-1 Ring. Drop Spa's track into the Austrian mountains and you've got a spectacular setting for a race, IMO.

Although Spa is just fine as-is. Damn glad to have it back on the schedule!

The circuit you are describing once stood in that very spot. Too bad the Osteriechring had to go in favour of one of Herman Tilke's template circuits. Never produced a dull race there either.

[_bigbadbob_]

I'm finding myself agreeing with both HBoss and SpeakerGuru...

On one had, I love seeing F1 cars race around regtular streets. On the otherhand, I appreciate the more technical circuits like Spa and Suzuka. Now take a technical circuit and give it some scenery, and that's the "best" track as far as I'm concerned.

Hmmm, sounds like Spa comes closest as the winner ;)

[CampioneFerrari]

SPA.

[Hungry Hippo]

Originally posted by George Bailey
I prefer half mile ovals. That way you can see all the cars all day without having to turn your head.


I believe I had read the overall length of current F1 tracks are fixed below a certain value for safety reasons - so the medical car(s) would never be more than X distance from a potential crash, and the crash would never be more than Y from the track hospital or helicopter, or whatever.

I can see that being the case. I really would like to see a longer track every now and then though. Also 1 or 2 more street races would be fun as well.

Does anybody know anything about the oval at Monza? I was looking at the Monza website and was amazed they used to race on a oval as well as the current track. Is the oval still there? Why don't they use it anymore? What would have to be done to get them to use it as part of the race again?

[ebin]

There's something to be said for corners like Massenet, Casino Square and the Swimming Pool.

[MichaelJP]

The best circuits are built around natural terrain.

So you get the original Nurburgring, Osterreichring, Spa, Clermont-Ferrand, Zandvoort etc.

The worst circuits are the modern designs laid out in a restricted flat area with the primary objectives of providing lavish team and media facilities. They are usually flat because they have to be near a major airport, and major airports are always built on flat land. Nearly always designed by Tilke, but I don't particularly blame him as he operates under the above constraints.

- Michael

[Buford]

Originally posted by MichaelJP
The best circuits are built around natural terrain.

So you get the original Nurburgring, Osterreichring, Spa, Clermont-Ferrand, Zandvoort etc.

The worst circuits are the modern designs laid out in a restricted flat area with the primary objectives of providing lavish team and media facilities. They are usually flat because they have to be near a major airport, and major airports are always built on flat land. Nearly always designed by Tilke, but I don't particularly blame him as he operates under the above constraints.

- Michael

Agreed but add half mile ovals too.

[indigoid]

I like Laguna Seca. That corkscrew is evil. Would be great to see F1 cars flying down there

j.

[angst]

Originally posted by MichaelJP
The best circuits are built around natural terrain.

So you get the original Nurburgring, Osterreichring, Spa, Clermont-Ferrand, Zandvoort etc.

The worst circuits are the modern designs laid out in a restricted flat area with the primary objectives of providing lavish team and media facilities. They are usually flat because they have to be near a major airport, and major airports are always built on flat land. Nearly always designed by Tilke, but I don't particularly blame him as he operates under the above constraints.

- Michael

Absolutely agree. Add Brands, Watkin's Glen, Mosport, Interlagos, Rouen.....aaaah

I think the main point is that they each had their own particular 'personality', where now all the circuits are so similar, which is possibly why we no longer get circuits that suit certain cars more than others - yet another reason for the increasing predictability of the race results perhaps.

[BRG]

Originally posted by ebin
There's something to be said for corners like Massenet, Casino Square and the Swimming Pool.

Yes, there is. It is "Mickey Mouse"

Good tracks are those in a pleasant location, with good viewing, some good altitude changes, plenty of mid- and high-speed corners, a hairpin or two but no stupid chicanes.

So Spa, A1-Ring (yes, I know that it isn't a patch on the old O'Ring, but it is still a nice track), Mugello, Donington (apart from the stupid chicane!), Road America, Suzuka, Interlagos

Monaco, Hungaroring, Mangy Bores

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Buford


Agreed but add half mile ovals too.

Yeah Richmond ROCKS!!! Never lose sight of the cars.

Spa and Imola get my vote (old Imola before they castrated it). I like the elevation changes and sweeping curver that possibly allow passing (maybe not in today's car configuration.) Suzaka also, I love the esses. At least on F1 racing games they are a gas to drive. Interlagos can also be inmteresting with both the blast up past the pits and the Senna curves. Anything that has long sweeping curves with a left right combo that coul dproduse overtaking. Point and shoot tracks I normally do not like.

[RDM]

Surely the point is that we need a variety of tracks, with different "styles" to test the strengths and weaknesses of different drivers and cars throughout the year, as well as to appeal to varying aesthetic tastes. Monaco, Spa and Monza are all great tracks and for different reasons. Hopefully, they will not all gradually be removed by Bernie and replaced with look-alike "Tilke-esque" tracks, rendering each race the same as the last, both from a track layout and aesthetic viewpoint.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by Witt
To answer the question, the best type of circuit would be approximately 14 miles long, and approximately 174 corners that go up and down. And to think such a circuit actually exists, and the powers that be choose not to use it for the pinnicle of the sport. Such a shame that the Nurburgring got thrown in Bernie's 'too hard to deal with' basket.

Are you sure it has 174 corners? Not 74 (+/-). With 174 the average lenght of the straight would be 126 meters...

[marion5drsn]

It doesn’t make any difference what each one of us likes as it is impossible to make a track that is enjoyable to watch in person and the same track to be useful to a large bunch of TV cameras. Tracks made to have a multiple usage under these conditions are impossible to engineer. Even if one applies the theory that any part of the track has to be able to be seen from one main grandstand you will see the impossibility to make or even find a place to put such a track. That is why view lines are so important and Tilke knows it, even if some of us do not. Repeat after me, View lines, Sight lines, View lines, Sight lines.

One of the reasons that TV is at times so rotten is there are not enough cameras to cover all the sight lines. Remenber how herky jerky some of the shots are when they try to follow a single car around the complete track.

M.L. Anderson On with the show!

[ScottL]

TV is rotten because a director is making your viewing choices for you. If we can get on with technology (ala F1 Digital or whatever it was called), we can get rid of the directors. The *only* visual advantage to watching a race on television is the occasional close up and the occasional view of a portion of track that is not viewable in person.

[wati]

Originally posted by Gemini


Are you sure it has 174 corners? Not 74 (+/-). With 174 the average lenght of the straight would be 126 meters...

Yup, it's 174, that's for sure. Drive it once in GPL.

[HBoss]

It would be possible to design and create a perfect track which was easily half as long or less than Nurburgring. Just think of Spa and how it is, it's not that far away from being a perfect track, if there will ever be one.

[milliepuppy]

... if the racing remains as it currently is .. i.e. non existent .. then the best circuits are those that make the cars look fast, these are obviously the enclosed tracks with limited spectator visibility .. spa, suzuka .. brands .. old hockenheim ... etc..... flat, smooth open circuits make the cars look slow and too in control .. a large part of watching racing is the risk and perceived danger of them doing something most of us wouldn't dare to do ....... if you sterilize the sport so much with anemic tracks, cars and drivers ... then you are going to find that people will stop watching .......

[ebin]

A great track should punish a driver for making a mistake, none of this tarmac runoff crap - I want some armco, some barriers.

Make a mistake and it's "Hello wall!"

[riffola]

I agree with everyone above that natural circuits like Spa, etc are great. I just wanted to point out that not all flat tracks are bad, good examples are Bahrain, and Sepang when it was newer, now it's just a bumpy hot track.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by BRG

Donington (apart from the stupid chicane!),

I'm of the opinion that the whole international section (Melbourne loop?) is a bit of a joke. I kind of wish they made that section a bit longer. But the rest of the circuit is wonderful. Probably **** for Formula One these days, but for British National racing and bike racing it is fantastic. Hope to go there someday.

[ViMaMo]

ultimate fantasy track... any scenic drive with dips and uphills. Totally unsafe but sets you thinking why isn't the modern day F1 track anything exciting like it... makes you wonder if Tilke lives by the airport?

Monaco... forget the mickey mouse turns, its exciting for any person to watch cars go around monaco. My friends don't like F1, but when they were showing the onboard shot ... they were awestruck.

Spa... scenic and close to my fantasy.

Suzuka... exquisite.

I like the home stretch of Brazilian track. The climb and the drop.

[George Bailey]

The best race track is a wet race track.

[eoin]

Originally posted by vivian
ultimate fantasy track... any scenic drive with dips and uphills. Totally unsafe but sets you thinking why isn't the modern day F1 track anything exciting like it... makes you wonder if Tilke lives by the airport?

Monaco... forget the mickey mouse turns, its exciting for any person to watch cars go around monaco. My friends don't like F1, but when they were showing the onboard shot ... they were awestruck.

Spa... scenic and close to my fantasy.

Suzuka... exquisite.

I like the home stretch of Brazilian track. The climb and the drop.

I have been watching F1 for 10 years and even I was taken back by this years onboards of Monaco. When did the slowest track in F1 become so fast?

Shorter tracks are preferred, and are requested in the rules. It would be great for sport to have some variation, but it all comes down to $$$. Now if only someone could get Bernie to lossen his purse strings!

[MichaelJP]

There was an interesting article in Autocar magazine recently which discussed the design of a new F1 circuit.

One point which staggered me was that the FIA rulebook dictates some of the rules that make F1 tracks so bland these days. For example, you weren't allowed to have negative camber on a corner (i.e. the opposite of a normal banked corner). You also can't have blind crests. Now this sort of thing is exactly what made tracks like the old Nurburgring so challenging to the driver.

Safety concerns have gone just too far.

- Michael

[Raemius]

My preferences would depend upon a number of factors:

For watching a qualifying lap with the benefit of good TV:
Spa - shows driver skill
Suzuka - ditto
Monaco - ditto and so near to those barrieres

For a whole weekend being there in person:
Monaco - atmosphere, proximity to the action, noise, babes!!
Adelaide - mega party town
Hungary - bowl nature of track allows good views of virtually whole track
Montreal - not been, but I'm sure the atmosphere is great and you get close up

Watching a race on TV:
Old Hockenheim - always threw up an odd result
A1 Ring - Always lots of overtaking on the track
Interlagos - often a good race and freak result

[Gemini]

Originally posted by wati


Yup, it's 174, that's for sure. Drive it once in GPL.

I stand corrected. Sorry for doubting. I did drove it in GPL... and in F1C and with ETCC 2003 Mod, and always got into some kind of trans . I have never realized it's some many of corners...

[crYnOid]

For me, Bathurst

dips and uphills - check
blind crests - check
dangerous - only if you stuff up ;)
Check this out for a good tour of the track from the drivers view. And if anyone is interested I could probably get a video hosted of the fastest qualifer in last years Bathurst 1000 for a better idea.

How can you go past this view
http://maelstromcrea...um/Medium22.jpg

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Gemini

I stand corrected. Sorry for doubting. I did drove it in GPL... and in F1C and with ETCC 2003 Mod, and always got into some kind of trans . I have never realized it's some many of corners...

I think the 174 corner thing (GPL version) refers to before the circuit was lined with armco, smoothed and straightened in the early 80's.

The current Nordschleife is about 70+ corners, but the track is just so sinuous that it really is a matter of opinion as to just what constitutes a corner!

- Michael

[angst]

Originally posted by crYnOid
For me, Bathurst

dips and uphills - check
blind crests - check
dangerous - only if you stuff up ;)
Check this out for a good tour of the track from the drivers view. And if anyone is interested I could probably get a video hosted of the fastest qualifer in last years Bathurst 1000 for a better idea.

How can you go past this view
http://maelstromcrea...um/Medium22.jpg

How could I have forgotten Bathurst. Absolutely bang on. It's the business. So add that to my earlier list.

[Umpire]

Jacques Villeneuve has put it quite nicely,

"A track must be such and such for a reason"

Magny-Cours is jus a stretch of land with straights and turns.

Spa has uphill, downhill sections....turns that were made simply because the terrain called for them....and so on.

A1 Ring had great surroundings and often provided good racing, but it is a rather simple track.

Bathurst....WOW!

Silverstone.........have tracks like Silverstone and noone would complain about lack of overtaking. Just take a look at the past races over there....

Suzuka.....pure skill.......(and please bring back the old 130R and Casio triangle!)

So I guess I really love the 'historical' tracks. I'd take Imola over a new Tilke designed track any time.

I also like street circuits; Adelaide, Monaco (and some could argue Montreal and Albert Park are kinda street circuits too).