I have heard through a few people, including Ross here on the BB comment how Jenson has the ideal driving style. I was wondering if anybody could explain to me what he does so right, why it works and perhaps if anybody has some onboard videos of Jens.
Thanks!
Button's driving style.
Started by
Nathan
, Jul 19 2004 18:10
63 replies to this topic
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#2
eoin
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Posted 19 July 2004 - 18:14
This thread should be in the tech. forum. You have a better chance of getting informed information there.
#3
NeilB
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Posted 19 July 2004 - 18:42
Todays cars need to have a smooth driving style to make them go fast. You could see that at Canada with Glock and Heidfeld, where Heidfeld seemed slower as his car was straight while Glock seemed faster as it was arse end all over the place. The cars like to have one bite of the wheel into the corner rather then a few, this is why Button's style suits todays modern cars. The only time when Buttons style comes unstuck is when it coems to defending his position when he isn't agressive enough.
#4
Chubby_Deuce
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Posted 19 July 2004 - 18:55
I'm always intrigued by Alonso's style. the final turns at Magny were incredible from his onboard as he did his usual late, quick turn-in and the car just looked to push and push yet he would hit the apexes perfectly.
#5
Pinguin
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Posted 19 July 2004 - 19:21
As another poster said modern F1 -with all the gizmos & grooved tyres- requires a very smooth style. Button has it. Many others on the grid have it too. Other more technical details like cornering entry -a drivers most important skill- & (hence) exit, should be -I think- discussed in the tech forum. For sure you'll get better help there...
#6
ckkl
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 02:50
Originally posted by Pinguin
As another poster said modern F1 -with all the gizmos & grooved tyres- requires a very smooth style. Button has it. Many others on the grid have it too. Other more technical details like cornering entry -a drivers most important skill- & (hence) exit, should be -I think- discussed in the tech forum. For sure you'll get better help there...
Good points by pinguin. Gizmos and grooved tyres are the largest contributors to the need for smooth driving vs sliding the car.
TC is there to ensure perfect traction hence promote tyre longevity (a slipping tyre is a tyre undergoing unnecessary wear and more susceptible to graining). So this allows softer aggressive compounds to be used since the TC will allow gentler use of tyres. Hence sliding produces a massive penalty over the course of a race.
The grooved tyres reduce the max slip angle of the cars. In essence this means the car can only slide at a very small angle before the car is twitchy and uncomfortable. Contrast to slicks, where the cars could slide smoothly to scrub off excess speed into a corner. Essentially, this is now part of F1 history.
In layman's terms, a car's limit of adhesion is at a certain point. Drivers can drive below this limit or above the limit. Below the limit and your car will stick and work perfectly but the driver is not using the full ability of the car. Drive above and the car will slide around. The driver at least knows he has passed the limit but the penalty (as listed above) is huge in modern F1.
Jenson is very good at operating close the limit but not beyond, hence his tremendous smoothness and speed. He's much like Jarno Trulli actually.
#7
Fat Boy
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:16
Isn't amazing who remembers and who forgets how to drive about the time the new chassis' roll around every year. Button knew how to drive his first year, forgot for a couple, and now (except for maybe Silverstone) has remembered how to get it right.
Heidfeld, Pantano, Glock, or Christ Almighty wouldn't look good driving the Jordan. The reason Nick looks a bit better is that he has relegated himself to massive oversteer and going slow because of it. Glock is still trying to go fast, that's his problem!!!
Traction control can work only for longitudinal slip. It does nothing to calm an oversteering car laterally. It doesn't add grip. It just allows the driver to more easily exploit what you can give him. I think many engineers get caught up in the gizmos and ignore the blanantly obvious. You're much, much better off setting the car up so you don't need to rely on the traction control than you are setting the car up with the traction control as the main tuning tool of rear grip.
As far as the grooves go, I'm not sure if they actually limit the slip angle of the tire, but they certainly change the rate of generation of that slip angle. Being quick with any driver inputs will break the tire away from the road and make it slide. The cars that are set up in a way that allow the driver to be slow with his hands are the fast ones. Color everone else slow.
Heidfeld, Pantano, Glock, or Christ Almighty wouldn't look good driving the Jordan. The reason Nick looks a bit better is that he has relegated himself to massive oversteer and going slow because of it. Glock is still trying to go fast, that's his problem!!!
Traction control can work only for longitudinal slip. It does nothing to calm an oversteering car laterally. It doesn't add grip. It just allows the driver to more easily exploit what you can give him. I think many engineers get caught up in the gizmos and ignore the blanantly obvious. You're much, much better off setting the car up so you don't need to rely on the traction control than you are setting the car up with the traction control as the main tuning tool of rear grip.
As far as the grooves go, I'm not sure if they actually limit the slip angle of the tire, but they certainly change the rate of generation of that slip angle. Being quick with any driver inputs will break the tire away from the road and make it slide. The cars that are set up in a way that allow the driver to be slow with his hands are the fast ones. Color everone else slow.
#8
Deepak
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:24
Button does indeed look very smooth and when he has a car that helps him go faster being smooth it helps even more.
But Alonso is one drivers whose onboards get me wondering whats his driving style. Has anyone noticed how he is so agressive when turning the steering wheel and the front wheels seem to suddenly change their direction. Its like a digital driver in those simulation games. I first thought it must be the nature of the car that its demanding this but then when i looked at trulli's onboard i found him to be really smooth and now i am of the opinion that Alonso prefers an understeery car and then throws the car into the corner by using sudden and lot of steering lock.
Sorry to get off the Button topic.
But Alonso is one drivers whose onboards get me wondering whats his driving style. Has anyone noticed how he is so agressive when turning the steering wheel and the front wheels seem to suddenly change their direction. Its like a digital driver in those simulation games. I first thought it must be the nature of the car that its demanding this but then when i looked at trulli's onboard i found him to be really smooth and now i am of the opinion that Alonso prefers an understeery car and then throws the car into the corner by using sudden and lot of steering lock.
Sorry to get off the Button topic.
#9
Powersteer
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:43
Smoothness in driving style is defenately the way to go ever since the introduction of high downforce and Jenson is as smooth as it gets. Reminds me of my old hero Alain Prost 'the professor'. I still think when downforces are very low in tight corners a certain amount of oversteer is required especially with todays wheelbase length in F1. It would naturally help with front wheel understeer. We could see the drivers doing it when they turn in with aggressive steering movement.
An intreguing technique used by some F1 drivers including Michael Schumacher
is to stray away slightly from the outer curb before a corner, move towards the outer curb then turn in to the corner, a bit like what rally drivers do. Because some of the turn in is done before the corner rather than having all of it being done during the corner, a smoother,bigger and faster line can be achieved, the only question being, is it quicker? The disadvantage with this is the driver have to brake earlier, so i guess its when and where to do it.
Possibly Jenson's style is smooth even when he oversteers the car, making it technically an ideal style of driving. Although, as i said earlier i am a Prost fan, i still like a bit of aggression. Its an irony with some arguement here on groovy tyres that it requires extra smooth driving or perfect driving to get quick times, which is, totally opposite of Mad Max's intensions, to slow down the cars(naturally) and to bring back some entertaining driving(failed).
An intreguing technique used by some F1 drivers including Michael Schumacher
is to stray away slightly from the outer curb before a corner, move towards the outer curb then turn in to the corner, a bit like what rally drivers do. Because some of the turn in is done before the corner rather than having all of it being done during the corner, a smoother,bigger and faster line can be achieved, the only question being, is it quicker? The disadvantage with this is the driver have to brake earlier, so i guess its when and where to do it. Possibly Jenson's style is smooth even when he oversteers the car, making it technically an ideal style of driving. Although, as i said earlier i am a Prost fan, i still like a bit of aggression. Its an irony with some arguement here on groovy tyres that it requires extra smooth driving or perfect driving to get quick times, which is, totally opposite of Mad Max's intensions, to slow down the cars(naturally) and to bring back some entertaining driving(failed).
#10
HSJ
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:53
Indeed it does seem like Alonso prefers a little bit of understeer. What he seems to be doing is, to brake rather late into a corner and then pick his line to the apex and through the corner. This is somewhat similar to what Häkkinen used to do, except that Mika did it with more oversteer. With Alonso's understeer you have to be very precise with the line you choose because it is hard to change it once you're committed. Mika could make corrections better with a little bit loose rear end. Alonso's style also doesn't allow him much room for manoeuvering at the exit after the apex, while Mika could slide the rear a bit to get an optimum exit. Alonso's style is very fast when it works, but it is also not that flexible, which means problems whenever track conditions change. I don't know if Alonso's style is faster than Mika's though, perhaps about equally fast when it works.Originally posted by Deepak
Button does indeed look very smooth and when he has a car that helps him go faster being smooth it helps even more.
But Alonso is one drivers whose onboards get me wondering whats his driving style. Has anyone noticed how he is so agressive when turning the steering wheel and the front wheels seem to suddenly change their direction. Its like a digital driver in those simulation games. I first thought it must be the nature of the car that its demanding this but then when i looked at trulli's onboard i found him to be really smooth and now i am of the opinion that Alonso prefers an understeery car and then throws the car into the corner by using sudden and lot of steering lock.
Sorry to get off the Button topic.
Button has been like he is now right from the beginning IMHO. Nothing has really changed except his car and his ability to set it up properly. He's always been smooth, already in F3 I think, using a very "classical" style. But I don't think JB is making the most of his car or style of driving. In part he looks so smooth because he isn't quite at the limit most of the time. I also think that his ability to make quick corrections when things start to go wrong is not the best, and he seems to lose a lot of time (I mean more than the likes of MS, JPM, KR for example) whenever he has to correct for a mistake or going over the limit. He also seems rather inflexible with his style. Ever notice how JB is usually fast only when driving alone? Whenever he has a car in his mirrors or in traffic he seems to lose a lot of time. Again I think this has to do with his relative inflexibility. He has to concentrate 100% on what he is doing. Any distraction immediately shows in his lap times. He is also not the best overtaker or defender (in fact he is a surprisingly poor defender) for the same reason. But like Alonso, when everything works he's very, very fast. All IMHO of course.
#11
ckkl
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 06:17
Originally posted by HSJ
Ever notice how JB is usually fast only when driving alone? Whenever he has a car in his mirrors or in traffic he seems to lose a lot of time. Again I think this has to do with his relative inflexibility. He has to concentrate 100% on what he is doing. Any distraction immediately shows in his lap times. He is also not the best overtaker or defender (in fact he is a surprisingly poor defender) for the same reason. But like Alonso, when everything works he's very, very fast. All IMHO of course.
Agree with your assessment. JB can be very good but he can also be very boring and passive when his car isn't fast.
#12
kodandaram
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 07:23
MY thoughts -
Jenson
- uses the Steering and throttle to control the car's attitude with extremely little or none throttle brake overlap. HE brakes with his left foot and uses overlapping only when it is absolutely essential in case of certain corners like at suzuka - the esses. Brakes pretty late. Likes an early turn in - in the sense that he takes a wide line at the turn in - sometimes puts his outer wheels on the white line or grass - but still takes and non-geometrical line to the corner. That is with respect to the entry , apex and exit it is not a neat semicircular curve. Instead he is turning in early to carry more speed into the corner and not hitting the geometrical apex of the corner. IT gives good turn in speed but can cause problems in mid corner or exit if he gets it wrong.
HE might like a slightly understeering car - but I am not sure. What he doesn't like is too much oversteer I am sure. HE learnt to live with oversteer in the 2002 Renualt but he doesn't prefer it . HE is very much like DC in the sense that DC too drives the same way but is so much neater . DC also goes very wide before taking a shallow entry. I have seen DC kick up the dust many times on the left side of the track while turning into a right hander - that is his wheels on the line there which is kicking up the dust. Fisichella and JEnson do likeswise but its more porminent with DC.
REmember GF spun in qualifying for Spa 2002 when he did that and put his outside wheel on the curb ?
I disagree that MS and JB dart away to the outside before steering the car into the corner. JEnson takes a line at the exit of a corner which naturally brings him to the edge of a circuit by the time he comes near the entry to the next corner . There is no last minute "dart outside and turn in " . NEither does MS do it . Both of them position the car nicely to the outside so that they can take a wide view of the corner but the entry is shallow. Michael doesn't often run up onto the outer curb like Fisi , DC or JEnson . He is about 80% towards the outer end of the track before turning in unlike DC who I say is 95 - 100 % on the outer limit of the track width , Fisi - 95 % and Jenson also 95 %
The only person who does this dart to the outside and then turn in - ...like rally drivers someone said - is Olivier Panis. His driving style is empirical similar to Rubens , JAcques , Mika and Senna. All these guys used to take a line that would make them hit the geometrical apex of the corner. But Panis alone does this rally thing .I have seen it very often in qualy .....just watch him in his toyota for his darting . But Panis is not as smooth as Roobens. He brakes at the same points as Roobens and Mika . But Senna and JV used to brake much later ........expecially JV was prone to outbraking in a straight line. All the above brake in a straight line - just like Jenson does usually. But JV and Senna braked later than Jenson. The difference here is that despite braking in a straight line Jenson has a shallow corner curve while hte others have a wide geometrical line .
Usually shallow entry drivers turn in on the brakes like MS and GF . Even DC does it . BUt not Jenson.He brakes always in a straight line.
HE is very smooth . Very little steering adjustments. IT helps when the car feels right. Even in the wet he will be quick. Where he will struggle is when the tyres are not heating up and he can't induce heat into them by being aggressive on turn in like say , MS , Alonso or JV. MS and Jenson use soft setups relative to FA and JV . Jenson is the softest of the lot. This gives a nice rolling feel at the front end and doesn't give a nervous front end. IT is excellent for the wet but when you are defending what you need is a very responsive car and also while overtaking you need a car which can carry speed behind a car in the fast corners . JB runs a soft setup which comprmises the high speed grip - u saw him short shifting under bridge at silverstone while Taku with a stiffer setup was flat and was not short shifting. So while pulling off a high speed "follow and overtake " move or while defending JEnson is in trouble. Coupled with his lack of racers insinct to cover a line he is not a very good blocker. HE pulls off good overtaking moves but usuall they are at corners where you are braking late into a tight and undulating corner - like at Malaysia and Nurbirgring where he overtook around the outside . BUt here his soft spring returns helped his stability and traction . HE struggled to overtake any cars on the straight at Spain -- reason ? he can't keep with the car ahead in the preceeding corners which are very fast and he doesn't have the same stability there due to soft settings . So he loses out there and can't overtake on the straight that follows it .
But if its a clean race with no overtaking in either dry or wet JEnson can be good.
Alonso -
Stiffer antiroll bars and fronts springs give repsonse to later turn in . He appears like a "keyboard driver" because he uses the torque of the engine on tun in coupled with rapid downshifts and a responsive front end to turn in very late. The other reason is that he is a "placement driver " who places his car in a certain position for a corner rather than a "line dirver" who takes the best line for a corner . Line drivers will position for a corner well before they get there. ALosno will come to hte corner and then place his car so that he makes it throught it as best as possible . SO he places a car on the track rather than choose lines .
Jenson
- uses the Steering and throttle to control the car's attitude with extremely little or none throttle brake overlap. HE brakes with his left foot and uses overlapping only when it is absolutely essential in case of certain corners like at suzuka - the esses. Brakes pretty late. Likes an early turn in - in the sense that he takes a wide line at the turn in - sometimes puts his outer wheels on the white line or grass - but still takes and non-geometrical line to the corner. That is with respect to the entry , apex and exit it is not a neat semicircular curve. Instead he is turning in early to carry more speed into the corner and not hitting the geometrical apex of the corner. IT gives good turn in speed but can cause problems in mid corner or exit if he gets it wrong.
HE might like a slightly understeering car - but I am not sure. What he doesn't like is too much oversteer I am sure. HE learnt to live with oversteer in the 2002 Renualt but he doesn't prefer it . HE is very much like DC in the sense that DC too drives the same way but is so much neater . DC also goes very wide before taking a shallow entry. I have seen DC kick up the dust many times on the left side of the track while turning into a right hander - that is his wheels on the line there which is kicking up the dust. Fisichella and JEnson do likeswise but its more porminent with DC.
REmember GF spun in qualifying for Spa 2002 when he did that and put his outside wheel on the curb ?
I disagree that MS and JB dart away to the outside before steering the car into the corner. JEnson takes a line at the exit of a corner which naturally brings him to the edge of a circuit by the time he comes near the entry to the next corner . There is no last minute "dart outside and turn in " . NEither does MS do it . Both of them position the car nicely to the outside so that they can take a wide view of the corner but the entry is shallow. Michael doesn't often run up onto the outer curb like Fisi , DC or JEnson . He is about 80% towards the outer end of the track before turning in unlike DC who I say is 95 - 100 % on the outer limit of the track width , Fisi - 95 % and Jenson also 95 %
The only person who does this dart to the outside and then turn in - ...like rally drivers someone said - is Olivier Panis. His driving style is empirical similar to Rubens , JAcques , Mika and Senna. All these guys used to take a line that would make them hit the geometrical apex of the corner. But Panis alone does this rally thing .I have seen it very often in qualy .....just watch him in his toyota for his darting . But Panis is not as smooth as Roobens. He brakes at the same points as Roobens and Mika . But Senna and JV used to brake much later ........expecially JV was prone to outbraking in a straight line. All the above brake in a straight line - just like Jenson does usually. But JV and Senna braked later than Jenson. The difference here is that despite braking in a straight line Jenson has a shallow corner curve while hte others have a wide geometrical line .
Usually shallow entry drivers turn in on the brakes like MS and GF . Even DC does it . BUt not Jenson.He brakes always in a straight line.
HE is very smooth . Very little steering adjustments. IT helps when the car feels right. Even in the wet he will be quick. Where he will struggle is when the tyres are not heating up and he can't induce heat into them by being aggressive on turn in like say , MS , Alonso or JV. MS and Jenson use soft setups relative to FA and JV . Jenson is the softest of the lot. This gives a nice rolling feel at the front end and doesn't give a nervous front end. IT is excellent for the wet but when you are defending what you need is a very responsive car and also while overtaking you need a car which can carry speed behind a car in the fast corners . JB runs a soft setup which comprmises the high speed grip - u saw him short shifting under bridge at silverstone while Taku with a stiffer setup was flat and was not short shifting. So while pulling off a high speed "follow and overtake " move or while defending JEnson is in trouble. Coupled with his lack of racers insinct to cover a line he is not a very good blocker. HE pulls off good overtaking moves but usuall they are at corners where you are braking late into a tight and undulating corner - like at Malaysia and Nurbirgring where he overtook around the outside . BUt here his soft spring returns helped his stability and traction . HE struggled to overtake any cars on the straight at Spain -- reason ? he can't keep with the car ahead in the preceeding corners which are very fast and he doesn't have the same stability there due to soft settings . So he loses out there and can't overtake on the straight that follows it .
But if its a clean race with no overtaking in either dry or wet JEnson can be good.
Alonso -
Stiffer antiroll bars and fronts springs give repsonse to later turn in . He appears like a "keyboard driver" because he uses the torque of the engine on tun in coupled with rapid downshifts and a responsive front end to turn in very late. The other reason is that he is a "placement driver " who places his car in a certain position for a corner rather than a "line dirver" who takes the best line for a corner . Line drivers will position for a corner well before they get there. ALosno will come to hte corner and then place his car so that he makes it throught it as best as possible . SO he places a car on the track rather than choose lines .
#13
ckkl
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 07:47
On the point of early entry/early apex, it's obvious this style of driving is made easier by TC since the difficulty with early apex is getting traction down on corner exit.
When was TC legalised again?
When was TC legalised again?
#14
karlth
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 08:16
Originally posted by eoin
This thread should be in the tech. forum. You have a better chance of getting informed information there.
What on earth is this thread doing in the technical forum?
Driving style has absolutely nothing to do with the technical side of Formula 1.
#15
kos
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 08:21
Originally posted by karlth
What on earth is this thread doing in the technical forum?
Technical forum description from Atlas' forums main page:
The place to discuss the technical aspect of F1, inluding driving techniques, engine statistics and aerodynamics
#16
karlth
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 08:35
Originally posted by kos
Technical forum description from Atlas' forums main page:
The place to discuss the technical aspect of F1, inluding driving techniques, engine statistics and aerodynamics
Strange and in my opinion absolutely wrong. I think someone confused Technic with Technique.
I wonder why the numerous threads in RC about driving techniques haven't then be moved into this forum?
#17
karlth
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 08:38
Whatever, just grumpy and needed my morning coffee.
Sorry for the interruption.
Sorry for the interruption.
#18
Yelnats
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 13:35
The only driver that stands out among the front-runners for an unusual style is Alonso with his oft-mentioned sudden turn-in. Some have linked this with an understeering car but I believe exactly the opposite. If the car was an understeerer he would plough excessively but instead I see a very sudden turnin that places him on a late apex and should give him excellent exit speed. This technique also allows him to do all his braking in a straight line that maximizes longitudinal grip due to the more equal loading of the tires.
Of course as mentioned it gives him very little latitude to adjust his line due to variability in traction or slight errors in braking points and I am constantly amazed that he can carry this off lap after lap.
Jenson is smooth as anyone but I have yet to be convinced of his ultimate speed under all conditions and this was confirmed by his relatively poor performances when switched to a car that didn’t suit his style. Hiedfield made him look pretty ordinary when teamed with him but interestingly JV was tested by him at BAR. Too bad JV’s reliability didn’t allow us to evaluate them when racing together over a season.
Of course as mentioned it gives him very little latitude to adjust his line due to variability in traction or slight errors in braking points and I am constantly amazed that he can carry this off lap after lap.
Jenson is smooth as anyone but I have yet to be convinced of his ultimate speed under all conditions and this was confirmed by his relatively poor performances when switched to a car that didn’t suit his style. Hiedfield made him look pretty ordinary when teamed with him but interestingly JV was tested by him at BAR. Too bad JV’s reliability didn’t allow us to evaluate them when racing together over a season.
#19
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 15:07
Heidfeld?
Yeah Button's got the second best technique to MS. One driving 'expert' said if you could combine Kimi agression (in a driving sense) with Button technique, you'd be tough to beat.
Another guy with sudden turn in is Rubens, and I agree with your oversteer characteristic, Trulli was absolutely jerking the wheel on entry in the wet practices at Magny.
Yeah Button's got the second best technique to MS. One driving 'expert' said if you could combine Kimi agression (in a driving sense) with Button technique, you'd be tough to beat.
Another guy with sudden turn in is Rubens, and I agree with your oversteer characteristic, Trulli was absolutely jerking the wheel on entry in the wet practices at Magny.
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#20
Freebird
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 17:08
My spin,
Jenson- He has said he runs longer than normal throttle pedal travel as a way of more smoothly applying throttle on exit. One of the reasons he lamented the reintroduction of TC. JV would have been the complete opposite in this dept. He was reported to use a shorter than avg. throttle travel. More on/off.
Alonso- He's been doing the "hairpin throw" on turn in for some time. Since he has the wheel thrown over so early in the turn with very little correction before apex I assume he is using the brakes to control the line. Personally, I think the chassis flatters him. In another car I think this would ultimately slow him down and he'd be force to change.
msw
Jenson- He has said he runs longer than normal throttle pedal travel as a way of more smoothly applying throttle on exit. One of the reasons he lamented the reintroduction of TC. JV would have been the complete opposite in this dept. He was reported to use a shorter than avg. throttle travel. More on/off.
Alonso- He's been doing the "hairpin throw" on turn in for some time. Since he has the wheel thrown over so early in the turn with very little correction before apex I assume he is using the brakes to control the line. Personally, I think the chassis flatters him. In another car I think this would ultimately slow him down and he'd be force to change.
msw
#21
ckkl
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 17:57
Agree on Alonso. I don't think he's as polished in his driving technique as most of the other drivers but the chassis and top-of-the-line driver aids available at Renault cover up these deficiencies.
But as long as he keeps driving with Renault, it doesn't matter anyway. His style does suit the car.
But as long as he keeps driving with Renault, it doesn't matter anyway. His style does suit the car.
#22
Nathan
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 18:28
Originally posted by Deepak
Sorry to get off the Button topic.
By all means, the more the merrier!!
#23
masterhit
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 18:45
There is no such thing as an ideal driving style. Prost and Senna for example both got the job done despite being different in driving style. Talent, dedication, technical ability, intelligence and being a team player and motivator of people is all that matters.
Drivers are adaptable and they vary their driving according to the conditions. They may have different characteristics but in the end excellence is excellence no matter what the characteristics are and that is a total package.
Drivers are adaptable and they vary their driving according to the conditions. They may have different characteristics but in the end excellence is excellence no matter what the characteristics are and that is a total package.
#24
paulogman
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 19:43
Originally posted by ckkl
Good points by pinguin. Gizmos and grooved tyres are the largest contributors to the need for smooth driving vs sliding the car.
TC is there to ensure perfect traction hence promote tyre longevity
i may be wrong, but doesn't traction control put more stress through the tyres, not less.
a spinning tyre will not wear as fast as one that doesn't slide and has more force put through it?
#25
Freebird
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 19:53
i may be wrong, but doesn't traction control put more stress through the tyres, not less.
A good TC can do either. Increase the slip and tear up the tires (qualifying) or decrease the slip and make them last (race).
#26
BRIAN GLOVER
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 03:05
That's pretty impressive Kodanaram. Thanks man. 
I'll keep these notes and see if I can verify any of your observations. How did you come up with all this? Over what period of time did make these observations?
The cameramen are unionized in Europe and don't seem to be too interested in F1 and I get the impression that they would rather be at a soccer game sometimes. They don't seem to focus on things long enough for you to deduce so much and in so much detail.
You don't have access to telemetry printouts do you?;)
When do you observe these tactics, during practice and qualifying? Most of the time you can't see what's going on because there is no coverage past 4th place.
It must be much easier driving Michael's Ferrari than the BAR Honda that Villenueve drove, but in the same car, my money would have gone on Jacques. We watched poor old Jaques struggling way at the back with a **** car during his unfortunate F1 career.. You could conclude that he lacked talent.
Even if you attend a GP, you can't really see when they brake or what lines they take. I've seen Senna and Prost race many times on TV and live enough times that you can witness their skills and make such determinations. When the rules were different and if there were 3 McLaren Hondas, and the ages of the drivers were the same, I don't think Michael Schumacher would have stood a chance against those two maestros. Rules bring out different skills in drivers and these days the cars are so different to one another including tires and fuel loads that driver skills may be hidden to the observer.
Many people comment on Alonso's ' understeering' technique. I like your analysis.
Mario Andretti used to 'triangulate turns at ovals to exploit characteristics of his suspension so that the suspension could be set up for the greater percentage of the turn. As an observer, you may say that he drove differently to the other drivers, but he had to drive around his car. He also brought oval type staggering to F1 and taught Chapman a few things about setting up a car for specific tracks. It sure looked odd when he drove sometimes.
At the time of Fangio and Moss, passing was not necessary to make GP racing interesting. The driver counted more than the car and skills were much more apparent.
As an ex Airforce jock and an instructor, it is my observation that Michael lacks spatial orientation and situation awareness and since he doesn't have to race anyone, his shortcomings are not apparent. I think Mika Hakkenen drove circles around him when actual racing took place. Too bad the McLaren wasn't up to it. I hate it when races are won in the pits. It deprives us of seeing real racing and not Solo 1 demonstrations.
MS's chop is actually a lack of talent. I remember at Indy when he chopped poor old Coultard for the 50th time at the end of the straight, he had to see the replay on video to see what he had done. He is a solo driver.
I saw Mansell chase Senna around Monaco for the entire race, and I don't think Senna could pull off some of the things that he did. Even in CHAMP cars, he did to Indy what Kenny Roberts did GP bikes with the most unusual lines and techniques.
There are tactical drivers and instinctual drivers. I don't understand drivers and pilots without technical knowledge, yet some times they win.
Some of the incar shots tell a lot, but they are so infrequent that I wonder how you can observe these differences with so little evidence. Hats off to you. I'm impressed. Very interesting.
Do you actually race? What techniques do you use? It depends on the type of car you have ofcourse, but I am curious. I'm very interested in what you have to say.
I used to race Corvettes and there was always some son of a bitch that could go faster than me in an identical car. I drove with one of those guys once and he was brutal and couldn't heal and toe or brake with his left foot. It looked hopeless from where I was sitting but he was nearly 2 seconds faster than me. I would have made racing a career if people didn't pass me.
I'll keep these notes and see if I can verify any of your observations. How did you come up with all this? Over what period of time did make these observations?
The cameramen are unionized in Europe and don't seem to be too interested in F1 and I get the impression that they would rather be at a soccer game sometimes. They don't seem to focus on things long enough for you to deduce so much and in so much detail.
You don't have access to telemetry printouts do you?;)
When do you observe these tactics, during practice and qualifying? Most of the time you can't see what's going on because there is no coverage past 4th place.
It must be much easier driving Michael's Ferrari than the BAR Honda that Villenueve drove, but in the same car, my money would have gone on Jacques. We watched poor old Jaques struggling way at the back with a **** car during his unfortunate F1 career.. You could conclude that he lacked talent.
Even if you attend a GP, you can't really see when they brake or what lines they take. I've seen Senna and Prost race many times on TV and live enough times that you can witness their skills and make such determinations. When the rules were different and if there were 3 McLaren Hondas, and the ages of the drivers were the same, I don't think Michael Schumacher would have stood a chance against those two maestros. Rules bring out different skills in drivers and these days the cars are so different to one another including tires and fuel loads that driver skills may be hidden to the observer.
Many people comment on Alonso's ' understeering' technique. I like your analysis.
Mario Andretti used to 'triangulate turns at ovals to exploit characteristics of his suspension so that the suspension could be set up for the greater percentage of the turn. As an observer, you may say that he drove differently to the other drivers, but he had to drive around his car. He also brought oval type staggering to F1 and taught Chapman a few things about setting up a car for specific tracks. It sure looked odd when he drove sometimes.
At the time of Fangio and Moss, passing was not necessary to make GP racing interesting. The driver counted more than the car and skills were much more apparent.
As an ex Airforce jock and an instructor, it is my observation that Michael lacks spatial orientation and situation awareness and since he doesn't have to race anyone, his shortcomings are not apparent. I think Mika Hakkenen drove circles around him when actual racing took place. Too bad the McLaren wasn't up to it. I hate it when races are won in the pits. It deprives us of seeing real racing and not Solo 1 demonstrations.
MS's chop is actually a lack of talent. I remember at Indy when he chopped poor old Coultard for the 50th time at the end of the straight, he had to see the replay on video to see what he had done. He is a solo driver.
I saw Mansell chase Senna around Monaco for the entire race, and I don't think Senna could pull off some of the things that he did. Even in CHAMP cars, he did to Indy what Kenny Roberts did GP bikes with the most unusual lines and techniques.
There are tactical drivers and instinctual drivers. I don't understand drivers and pilots without technical knowledge, yet some times they win.
Some of the incar shots tell a lot, but they are so infrequent that I wonder how you can observe these differences with so little evidence. Hats off to you. I'm impressed. Very interesting.
Do you actually race? What techniques do you use? It depends on the type of car you have ofcourse, but I am curious. I'm very interested in what you have to say.
I used to race Corvettes and there was always some son of a bitch that could go faster than me in an identical car. I drove with one of those guys once and he was brutal and couldn't heal and toe or brake with his left foot. It looked hopeless from where I was sitting but he was nearly 2 seconds faster than me. I would have made racing a career if people didn't pass me.
Originally posted by kodandaram
MY thoughts -
Jenson
- uses the Steering and throttle to control the car's
HE might like a slightly understeering car -
I disagree that MS and JB dart away to the outside before steering the car into the corner.
His driving style is empirical similar to Rubens , JAcques , Mika and Senna. All these guys used to take a line that would make them hit the geometrical apex of the corner. But Panis alone does this rally thing .I have seen it very often in qualy
Usually shallow entry drivers turn in on the brakes like MS and GF . Even DC does it . BUt not Jenson.He brakes always in a straight line.
MS , Alonso or JV. MS and Jenson use soft setups relative to FA and JV . Jenson is the softest of the lot.
. JB runs a soft setup which comprmises the high speed grip - u saw him short shifting under bridge at silverstone while Taku with a stiffer setup was flat and was not short shifting. So while
Alonso -
Stiffer antiroll bars and fronts springs give repsonse to later turn in . He appears like a "keyboard driver"
#27
ferrarifan2000
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 03:24
there's a fantastic article on trail braking and the racing line in this month's racecar engineering. check it out. it may give you some insight into f1 pilot's driving styles.
#28
Powersteer
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 03:45
Rumour has it that the Renaults have a more rear weight bias than most of or all of the other teams which is being used as an excuse for thier good starts other than Trulli admitting his failed attempt to jump start. I think its true and a sucker for Renault media. Aggressive steering on a rear weight bias will surely kick the tail out unless the rear is planted heavily by downforce which would be very effective for Alonso to attack the wheel neautralising weight transfer early to get the optimum line. It seems like an ideal set up after some recent problems F1 teams had with understeer.
So basicly Renault took some weight off the front and go crazy on aerodynamics at the rear for high speed corners and could make a clean front end for better air flow to the rear whereas Williams chose to put Jean Todt's nose on the front of thier car. We have confirm by most recent post that Alonso attacks late and exits fast, very slow-in-fast out. This style is typical for a heavy rear car, just look at the 911 Le Mans drivers and how they drive around the rear engine to get a quick time which explains Fernando Alonso.
So basicly Renault took some weight off the front and go crazy on aerodynamics at the rear for high speed corners and could make a clean front end for better air flow to the rear whereas Williams chose to put Jean Todt's nose on the front of thier car. We have confirm by most recent post that Alonso attacks late and exits fast, very slow-in-fast out. This style is typical for a heavy rear car, just look at the 911 Le Mans drivers and how they drive around the rear engine to get a quick time which explains Fernando Alonso.
#29
Chubby_Deuce
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 05:49
Originally posted by Freebird
Alonso- He's been doing the "hairpin throw" on turn in for some time. Since he has the wheel thrown over so early in the turn with very little correction before apex I assume he is using the brakes to control the line. Personally, I think the chassis flatters him. In another car I think this would ultimately slow him down and he'd be force to change.
msw
He was using the technique in 2001, no?
#30
mat1
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 07:56
Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER
Mario Andretti used to 'triangulate turns at ovals to exploit characteristics of his suspension so that the suspension could be set up for the greater percentage of the turn. As an observer, you may say that he drove differently to the other drivers, but he had to drive around his car. He also brought oval type staggering to F1 and taught Chapman a few things about setting up a car for specific tracks. It sure looked odd when he drove sometimes.
Staggering? You mean asymmetric setups? Interesting, I did not know they were used in F1.
At which tracks were they used?
mat1
#31
ckkl
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 08:09
I don't see why asymmetric setups wouldn't be used.
Obviously most tracks have more right turns than left turns* so the outer tyre would obviously undergo much more load with an unbiased setup.
How to perform this kind of asymmetric setup I have no idea.
*Interlagos going the other way and Suzuka's 8-configuration being two notable exceptions
Obviously most tracks have more right turns than left turns* so the outer tyre would obviously undergo much more load with an unbiased setup.
How to perform this kind of asymmetric setup I have no idea.
*Interlagos going the other way and Suzuka's 8-configuration being two notable exceptions
#32
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 08:12
I once asked an engineer for a Formula Ford team I was testing for about staggered setups since the little test track we were on only had one right corner. He said you couldnt do it because it would screw up the car under braking. Made sense, but at the same time he also seemed like one of those "If X then Y" setup guys and not a real engineer
#33
ckkl
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 08:22
That does make sense.
But, if there are lots of left corners and one right hander (using the test track you mentioned as an example) then there would be greater load on the right-side tyres and they would wear faster.
If the response of the compound changes with wear (as with most tyres) then the right side tyres would respond differently to the left side tyres anyway. Over a long stint, sensitive tyres would cause great imbalance as the stint progresses with an unbiased, symmetric setup anyway.
The idea with the staggered setup is to reduce the effect of this over a stint. So at the start of the stint you may be slightly left-turn biased but as the tyres wear in, in the middle of the stint the car would be neutral and towards the end of the stint the car would be slightly right-turn biased. Contrast against a symmetric setup where a car would start off neutral then suffer progressively worse understeer in right handers as tyres wear.
I suppose the variables are driver technique, tyre behaviour and the nature of the track.
Disclaimer: This logic is all from my brain, not from experience.
But, if there are lots of left corners and one right hander (using the test track you mentioned as an example) then there would be greater load on the right-side tyres and they would wear faster.
If the response of the compound changes with wear (as with most tyres) then the right side tyres would respond differently to the left side tyres anyway. Over a long stint, sensitive tyres would cause great imbalance as the stint progresses with an unbiased, symmetric setup anyway.
The idea with the staggered setup is to reduce the effect of this over a stint. So at the start of the stint you may be slightly left-turn biased but as the tyres wear in, in the middle of the stint the car would be neutral and towards the end of the stint the car would be slightly right-turn biased. Contrast against a symmetric setup where a car would start off neutral then suffer progressively worse understeer in right handers as tyres wear.
I suppose the variables are driver technique, tyre behaviour and the nature of the track.
Disclaimer: This logic is all from my brain, not from experience.
#34
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 08:51
Yeah, it was a 1mile test track though so not really critical. It was more a "we need to get some laps" kind of test track than a place where you really work on the car.
Its funny though, Snetterton is one of the #1 test tracks for national level stuff in the UK (only really F1 bother with Silverstone GP) and its basically 8 corners. Fast right, fast right, slowing left into tight right, big elevation change right, long right, sharp right/sharp left (chicane). Be interesting to play with staggered setups there, but I imagine with the point you raise about the tires wearing unevenly, if testing there doesnt mislead you somewhat.
Its funny though, Snetterton is one of the #1 test tracks for national level stuff in the UK (only really F1 bother with Silverstone GP) and its basically 8 corners. Fast right, fast right, slowing left into tight right, big elevation change right, long right, sharp right/sharp left (chicane). Be interesting to play with staggered setups there, but I imagine with the point you raise about the tires wearing unevenly, if testing there doesnt mislead you somewhat.
#35
kodandaram
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 09:09
@Brian Glover -
Sent u a PM
Sent u a PM
#36
Freebird
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 11:37
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Freebird
Alonso- He's been doing the "hairpin throw" on turn in for some time. Since he has the wheel thrown over so early in the turn with very little correction before apex I assume he is using the brakes to control the line. Personally, I think the chassis flatters him. In another car I think this would ultimately slow him down and he'd be force to change.
msw
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He was using the technique in 2001, no?
I'll check
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER
Mario Andretti used to 'triangulate turns at ovals to exploit characteristics of his suspension so that the suspension could be set up for the greater percentage of the turn. As an observer, you may say that he drove differently to the other drivers, but he had to drive around his car. He also brought oval type staggering to F1 and taught Chapman a few things about setting up a car for specific tracks. It sure looked odd when he drove sometimes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Staggering? You mean asymmetric setups? Interesting, I did not know they were used in F1.
At which tracks were they used?
mat1
Villenueve met with resistance at Williams when he brought his experience of asymmetrical car setup from Champcar to F1. Involved corner weights a and aero at least. Some months into his first season the team caved and let him try his "ideas". He went faster.
I looked at a initial setup sheet from a Champcar team at Road America a few years ago. I don't recall about the wing settings but every corner weight was different on the car.
msw
#37
cozworth
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 12:03
I have a question about Alonso's driving style, since he's the only driver who works
with the steering wheel harder with his late turn-in's, than most of the front runner, does that mean that he's eating up the front tyres at a faster rate than the others?
with the steering wheel harder with his late turn-in's, than most of the front runner, does that mean that he's eating up the front tyres at a faster rate than the others?
#38
Chubby_Deuce
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 12:36
I don't suppose it matters when you consider his speed. Maybe Trulli isn't using the tyres enough.
#39
kodandaram
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 13:51
@ cozworth -
I am sure different driving styles will affect the tyres differently .
It is not uncommon for some drivers to look after tyres very well. Michale and Frentzen learnt that in Sportscars which weer heavy and the tyres needed nursing. So you see what Michale can do when his tyres can't bear the load. He will nurse them till they get upto temperature and then rape the field. Just like he showed Roobens his backside at Indy after the tyres wore out a bit.
Another example - in 2001 at Austria both Mika and Michale were on the same compund of the bridgestone - a medium compound tyre - for the qualifying session. While Michale with his relatively more demanding(on the tyres) style of driving was able to bring them up to temperature on his warm up lap , Mika struggled to get them upto temperature and was losing tim on the hotlap ... in fact Mika's tyres were so difficult to get upto temp. that he didn't bother doing 2 hotlaps since McLaren reckoned they would need 4 laps to get upto temp at race speed.
But here is the irony .....just on friday that weekend Mika was on top ...using the same compund tyres - ........but they were old tyres which got upto temperature quicker ....they thought the new tyres in qualy must give them pole ...but alas .........
So with regard to the question - is Alonso using tyres more than Trulli ?
As a matter of fact , drivers who drive like Mika , Senna , JV , Panis , Woobens etc i,e the classic drivers usually load the tyre more during the longitudinal acceleration compared to the drivers who turn- in on the brakes who not only load the tyre during longitudinal movement but they also load the tyre significantly more when they turn-in on the brakes - especially the front end. So soem people say the drivers who brake and turn in are using the "full envelope" of the tyre grip while the classic drivers are not ...... I tend to agree with that although both styles can produce same laptimes .......so over a race distance Michale might use the tyres more than Woobens, Mika ,. Senna , JV etc but he will extract more from them in one lap. The classic drivers will conversely suffer sometimes to get the tyres upto temperature but can look after the tyres more over the race distance .
BUT - since there will always be a few classic drivers and a few brake-turn in drivers the tyres produced by the manufacturers will be such that it has an optimum operating temperature which suits both types of drivers and moreover modern F1 tyres don't need more than a lap at medium pace to warmup sufficently .........unless in some rare cases like Austria 2001 , Monza 2002 etc.
So while Alonso uses his tyres more over one lap and Trulli is perhaps a bit less demanding on his tyres - over a race both styles can produce the same result if the car is setup to the liking of the driver.......but there is nothing to say that a driver can't lose a race sicne he used his tyres up more - just look at Michale in Spa 2000 when his Ferrari used its tyres up more than Mika's McLaren used its tyres and then Mika pulled off 'that' move.....
BUt even then I say that I am sure the team and the drivers and the tyre engineers will take all this things into account before selecting a tyre and it is not a problem anymore.
I am sure different driving styles will affect the tyres differently .
It is not uncommon for some drivers to look after tyres very well. Michale and Frentzen learnt that in Sportscars which weer heavy and the tyres needed nursing. So you see what Michale can do when his tyres can't bear the load. He will nurse them till they get upto temperature and then rape the field. Just like he showed Roobens his backside at Indy after the tyres wore out a bit.
Another example - in 2001 at Austria both Mika and Michale were on the same compund of the bridgestone - a medium compound tyre - for the qualifying session. While Michale with his relatively more demanding(on the tyres) style of driving was able to bring them up to temperature on his warm up lap , Mika struggled to get them upto temperature and was losing tim on the hotlap ... in fact Mika's tyres were so difficult to get upto temp. that he didn't bother doing 2 hotlaps since McLaren reckoned they would need 4 laps to get upto temp at race speed.
But here is the irony .....just on friday that weekend Mika was on top ...using the same compund tyres - ........but they were old tyres which got upto temperature quicker ....they thought the new tyres in qualy must give them pole ...but alas .........
So with regard to the question - is Alonso using tyres more than Trulli ?
As a matter of fact , drivers who drive like Mika , Senna , JV , Panis , Woobens etc i,e the classic drivers usually load the tyre more during the longitudinal acceleration compared to the drivers who turn- in on the brakes who not only load the tyre during longitudinal movement but they also load the tyre significantly more when they turn-in on the brakes - especially the front end. So soem people say the drivers who brake and turn in are using the "full envelope" of the tyre grip while the classic drivers are not ...... I tend to agree with that although both styles can produce same laptimes .......so over a race distance Michale might use the tyres more than Woobens, Mika ,. Senna , JV etc but he will extract more from them in one lap. The classic drivers will conversely suffer sometimes to get the tyres upto temperature but can look after the tyres more over the race distance .
BUT - since there will always be a few classic drivers and a few brake-turn in drivers the tyres produced by the manufacturers will be such that it has an optimum operating temperature which suits both types of drivers and moreover modern F1 tyres don't need more than a lap at medium pace to warmup sufficently .........unless in some rare cases like Austria 2001 , Monza 2002 etc.
So while Alonso uses his tyres more over one lap and Trulli is perhaps a bit less demanding on his tyres - over a race both styles can produce the same result if the car is setup to the liking of the driver.......but there is nothing to say that a driver can't lose a race sicne he used his tyres up more - just look at Michale in Spa 2000 when his Ferrari used its tyres up more than Mika's McLaren used its tyres and then Mika pulled off 'that' move.....
BUt even then I say that I am sure the team and the drivers and the tyre engineers will take all this things into account before selecting a tyre and it is not a problem anymore.
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#40
ckkl
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 14:00
Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce
I don't suppose it matters when you consider his speed. Maybe Trulli isn't using the tyres enough.
I believe someone mentioned on the french TV coverage, Franck Montagny made the same observation i.e. at some tracks Trulli's smooth driving (vs Alonso's harsh style) was unable to get the tyres up to temp fast enough.
#41
MrSlow
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 14:36
I am 100% sure all teams use asymetrical setups. Not as much as in oval racing where the left wheel pair have postitive camber and the right is negative, but they will have different cambers and, most of all - different tyre pressure on each tyre. They will also use different springs and damper settings on each side of the car to get a good average load on the tyres, but again, not as pronounced as in oval racing.
A completely symmetrical setup would put a lot of extra strain on one single tyre and would not be usable in a race.
A completely symmetrical setup would put a lot of extra strain on one single tyre and would not be usable in a race.
#42
ckkl
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Posted 21 July 2004 - 15:15
I agree. But may I ask, how are you so sure? (Curious)
Also would be interesting to understand what kind of system they use to set the cars up since there are obviously so many variables.
Also would be interesting to understand what kind of system they use to set the cars up since there are obviously so many variables.
#43
FuscaBala
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Posted 27 July 2004 - 14:11
Ayton Senna raced with different compunds in the right and left side of his car. It worked once and failled once until he gave up the idea.Originally posted by MrSlow
I am 100% sure all teams use asymetrical setups. Not as much as in oval racing where the left wheel pair have postitive camber and the right is negative, but they will have different cambers and, most of all - different tyre pressure on each tyre. They will also use different springs and damper settings on each side of the car to get a good average load on the tyres, but again, not as pronounced as in oval racing.
A completely symmetrical setup would put a lot of extra strain on one single tyre and would not be usable in a race.
#44
masterhit
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Posted 27 July 2004 - 17:24
Originally posted by FuscaBala
Ayton Senna raced with different compunds in the right and left side of his car. It worked once and failled once until he gave up the idea.
Good point but the rules were changed to one tyre compound per car. This is why it does not happen on the tyre side anymore.
#45
Deepak
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Posted 28 July 2004 - 05:44
I just read on F1racing a comment by Flavio that Alonso actually lost 8% downforce and lost some part of aerodynamic element, IIRC it was a piece of bargeboard, and that explained his sudden lost of front end grip and hence the slower lap times but FA managed to drive around the problem and get back to race pace in a couple of laps which i think is a testament of the driving skill of FA.
I want to know if this is also bcos of the high levels of aero and tyre grip we see in F1 these days?
I want to know if this is also bcos of the high levels of aero and tyre grip we see in F1 these days?
#46
ckkl
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Posted 28 July 2004 - 06:07
The board broke and got stuck under the car.
Can we blame this on aero? Huh... sounds a rather philosophical question.
Can we blame this on aero? Huh... sounds a rather philosophical question.
#47
Deepak
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Posted 28 July 2004 - 06:32
Sorry... maybe i dint pose the Q properly.
I meant has the level of grip increased so much that even not having an element isnt making that much difference or is it purely driver talent
I meant has the level of grip increased so much that even not having an element isnt making that much difference or is it purely driver talent
#48
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 28 July 2004 - 12:10
Alonso didnt adapt to the difference so much as the bargeboard debris dislodged itself and he was able to continue on at a more normal pace 
#49
desmo
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Posted 28 July 2004 - 21:52
What little empirical evidence I've seen suggests to me that bargeboards are of relatively minor importance as part of the total aero package. Plus, any loss of downforce will likely be rewarded by a commensurate dimunition of total aero drag, so losing some is not all bad news.
#50
Deepak
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Posted 29 July 2004 - 04:30
Originally posted by desmo
What little empirical evidence I've seen suggests to me that bargeboards are of relatively minor importance as part of the total aero package. Plus, any loss of downforce will likely be rewarded by a commensurate dimunition of total aero drag, so losing some is not all bad news.
Thats exactly what i thought too. Just wondering why do they even have them when it dint make so much difference. It only makes the car heavy.
