33 replies to this topic

[Buford]

I was looking through 1976 Road & Tracks trying to find an article by Mark Donahue on the friction circle theory to answer an argument in the numbskull forum. I didn't find that, but I did find an article saying he was retiring from driving to take a position as head of Penske Racing. I did not recall that and obviously he did not stop driving... unfortunately. Anybody remember what all that was about?

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Yes, Donohue did "retire" from active competition at the end of the CanAm program. He returned to drive the Penske F1 car.

This is presented in some detail in "The Unfair Advantage", but as I am at the office at the moment I cannot provide details.

I will be glad to provide more this evening.

[Buford]

Well I have the "Unfair Advantage". In fact - that is the book we were arguing about. I attributed more info to it than it turns out it contains on the friction circle, so I was looking for more. But the Road & Track article said he was retiring from driving completely. It was obviously in error. Or I guess you are saying he changed his mind when they got the F1 program going.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Buford
Well I have the "Unfair Advantage". In fact - that is the book we were arguing about. I attributed more info to it than it turns out it contains on the friction circle, so I was looking for more. But the Road & Track article said he was retiring from driving completely. It was obviously in error. Or I guess you are saying he changed his mind when they got the F1 program going.

My recollection is that he did retire. He then came back for the F1 program. I'm not sure how long that retirement lasted for - but I'd always read this as a full retirement and then a change of mind. I'm out of town right now but can look this up on my return.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Yep, Mark retired from driving at the 1973 IROC winners circle. He took a management position (that he did not like very much) with Penske Racing until he was coaxed back into driving by Roger for the F1 program.

[FLB]

The Peter Morgan Porsche 917 book suggests that his leg injuries of 1972-73 (that forced him to miss some Can Am races) played a part in his becoming Penske's racing manager.

I don't know if they have any substance, but there were also rumours that his personal life played a part in his "retirement". Apparently, he was going though a messy divorce and didn't want his gains (for which, after all, he risked his life) to be partly given to her and thus made the decision that she wasn't going to see a single penny of what he earned on the track.

The story goes that once his divorce was final, he immediately "un-retired"...

[Mischa Bijenhof]

According to Heiz Prüllers yearbook (1980), Donohue was more or less forced by Roger Penske himself to get back to racing when the latter started his F1-team. Should this mean that there still were some contractual clauses involved?

[Lotus23]

Mischa, maybe "forced" isn't quite the right word; "persuaded" perhaps.

I doubt that Penske "forced" Mark to do anything he didn't want to do; always had the impression that they were as close as brothers.

As an aside, does anyone know of a Penske biography/autobiography?

[Dennis Hockenbury]

If my dates are correct, Mark Donohue "officially" retired from active competition on 29 October, 1973 at Riverside upon the conclusion of the CanAm/IROC event.

He assumed the role of President of Penske Racing for what seems to be a very brief period as he raced the Penske PC-1 at Mosport Park on 22 September 1974 finishing 12th at the Canadian GP.

Various references point to his developmental driving on the PC-1 prior to this event but no dates are provided.

Buford, I believe I understand your point. Did he really retire or was this just a ruse of some sort. Most likely only Donohue and Penske knew for sure. The only written source that we have is his book and he claims that the retirement was for real. Perhaps Roger will fill in the blanks some day.

Another tragedy in an era of many.

[Buford]

No I don't know if he really retired or not. I had forgotten all about it. That was why I was surprised to see the Road & Track article announcing his retirement. I have a pretty good memory for racing trivia of that era anyway, and I had no recollection of this at all.

[m.tanney]

  As I recall, Donohue's curiousity about the new car and F1 got the better of him. I've seen photos of him testing the PC-1 in its original Sunoco livery. Maybe Penske figured that, if he started the project, Donohue would come around. It's hard to imagine Penske starting such a major undertaking without having a driver in mind. But if not Donohue, than whom? I think Brett Lunger was once listed as a possible second driver, but he wasn't the sort of guy Penske would have built a program around. Could Penske have had someone else in mind when he started the F1 project? Andretti was tied up with Parnelli and Firestone. Revson, maybe?

Originally posted by Lotus23
As an aside, does anyone know of a Penske biography/autobiography?

  The subject of a Penske biography/autobiography has come up before. Gordon Kirby is interested in doing a book, but Penske is just too busy (and probably reluctant to discuss matters involving "the split"). While a full Penske biography may be a long way off, I think a book just on his career as a driver would make a very interesting read.

[Mischa Bijenhof]

Originally posted by Lotus23
Mischa, maybe "forced" isn't quite the right word; "persuaded" perhaps.

I doubt that Penske "forced" Mark to do anything he didn't want to do; always had the impression that they were as close as brothers.

As an aside, does anyone know of a Penske biography/autobiography?

Ah right, I thought it sounded a bit harsh myself. That was the word I was looking for.

[Megatron]

Drivers coem and drivers go, but the only two that really seemed to be "in" with Penske, or as you say close as brothers, were Mark Donahue and Rick Mears. Least in my opinion.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Buford
I was looking through 1976 Road & Tracks trying to find an article by Mark Donahue on the friction circle theory to answer an argument in the numbskull forum.

Then why do you work so hard to impress them?

[ghinzani]

I am sure I read that Donahue returned because of money - he just did'nt realise how little he would earn etc - I have a feeling I read it in Motor Sport or in an article by NSR.

Luminaries such as Mass, Fittipaldi and my personal faveourite for the ride Penske USAC driver Mike Hiss were listed in Autosports of the time as the main candidates. It was listed as being a 2 car team in 75 as well. If I ever get to track down Geoff Ferris at a kart meeting watching his grandson I will try and get an answer.

[dbltop]

I always felt that Mark un-retired because F1 was unfinished business. He and Roger had won everywhere else they had raced. Come to think about it, it is still unfinished business for Penske. Maybe we will see him back when the IRL and OWCC kill each other off.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Buford
I was looking through 1976 Road & Tracks trying to find an article by Mark Donahue on the friction circle theory to answer an argument in the numbskull forum...

Any reason for looking in R&Ts from 1976, bearing in mind that Donohue died in 1975...?

Twinny

[Buford]

We were discussing the friction circle concept first discovered and detailed by Donahue. I had incorrectly stated I had read about it in "The Unfair Advantage" and it had explained my driving technique and one that had caused something of a fuss at the Jim Russell School because I was not doing what they taught, but I was faster. I had already raced 7 years so I wasn't a raw rookie.

It was pointed out there was very little about the friction circle in "Unfair Advantage." So then I was thinking, well where did I read about it? I was looking at 1976 - 1977 Road & Tracks for a possible article I had read. That's when I saw that retirement article. So there may have been some older ones in the stack too out of order I guess.

I am not trying to impress them Ross. I am either trying to teach them something (only rarely possible) or ridicule them (evil fun for me). Much in the same manner you do, though I am much more effective at it than you are.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Buford
We were discussing the friction circle concept first discovered and detailed by Donahue.

Can you give a brief explanation of this technique, Buford, as I'm interested and haven't knowingly heard of it before.

Twinny

[Buford]

It's on the last few pages of this thread, which you guys may find interesting anyway

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=71062

[Pedro 917]

Originally posted by Twin Windows :

Any reason for looking in R&Ts from 1976, bearing in mind that Dono hue died in 1975...?

It's Dono hue indeed !

[Buford]

Sorry - I did not notice I was spelling Mark's name wrong. I knew that once upon a time but fell into the wrong spelling in my old age!

[Twin Window]

Buford

I've read some of the posts - in very basic terms, would it be correct to say that it advocates the principle of braking during turn-in?

Twinny

[Buford]

Yes - and maximizing the tire's ability to transfer straight line forces into turning forces into acceleration forces without wasting any of it's effeciency.

[Twin Window]

...in which case, it's a philosophy which has been at work in motocycle racing for a very long time (and never more prevalent than it is today) and in rally driving since the year dot!

Twinny

[Buford]

It may have been used for decades it is true. But the science explaining it came from Mark Donohue and the GM engineering guys in the late 1960s when they first put telemetry on cars and the information was just getting wide notice in the mid- 1970s years.

[Lotus23]

You're right, Buford. When I first began racing (late 50s/early 60s), The Doctrine -- at least as I learned it -- was that all one's braking had to be done in a straight line before commencing any change of direction. ("Otherwise you'll spin like a top" was the rationale.)

I did as instructed, but later the friction circle idea certainly made sense to this ol' engineer.

[Jim Thurman]

A bit late on this, but...

Yes, Donohue did formally retire. It was announced and everything. Autoweek made much of his "final race", the IROC round at Daytona in February 1974.

There's a tremendous amount on this in Autoweek, but I'd have to dig them out.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

A few good articles from Road & Track on this subject.

Road & Track -- Mark Retires - Feb, 1974

Road & Track - Donohue's Finale - June, 1974

Road & Track - Mark Donohue - Aug, 1974

And a few more are to be found at JavelinAMX.com near the bottom of the page under 'AMC and related Personalities'.

[stuartbrs]

Peter Windsor wrote an article on the friction circle a few years ago in F1 Racing ( yes I`m ashamed, I used to buy it ). He spoke about Mark Donohue and the engineer from GM who was able to lap the test track quicker than Donohue, the engineer of course knew all about the friction circle, and explained it Mark.. I also remember something in the article about a tyre having almost equal grip in any given direction at speed in the friction circle..
I`d try to dig the article out but I gave the magazines to the local child care centre for the kids to cut up

[Buford]

This is the one I saw when I was trying to find an article to explain why I had thought he had explained the friction circle in "The Unfair Advantage" and it turned out not to be there.

Road & Track -- Mark Retires - Feb, 1974

http://www.javelinam...mark-quits1.doc

[JacnGille]

Hey Buford, there is a Friction Circle explaination in Van Valkenburgh's book, Race Car Engineering & Mechanics.

[Buford]

Yes - thanks. I have that and it turned out that was the book I was thinking of as it came out at the same time. I discovered numerous paragraphs I had highlighted in yellow. Prior to opening that book from my shelf, I was searching the Road & Tracks. Then I discovered the book you are identifying and realized that is the one.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by dbltop
I always felt that Mark un-retired because F1 was unfinished business. He and Roger had won everywhere else they had raced. Come to think about it, it is still unfinished business for Penske. Maybe we will see him back when the IRL and OWCC kill each other off.

I am not trying to interpet things that aren't there but I get the feeling this last attempt at a merger being shot down may not sit well with Penske. He might continue on for another 10 years, by then he might be the only two cars left. Then again he might give them the international salute for number one and do something else.