44 replies to this topic

[HistoricMustang]

Being from the South of the United States, I have problems with the English language as well as English automobiles.

A friend gave me this late 50's photo of an Aston Martin at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia and am wondering about more identification on this beautiful machine. It appears to be more than a converted street car.

Can anyone help?

Also received photo of a Cunningham coupe from the same event that will be put up.

Henry

[JB Miltonian]

I would say that this car is definitely a SIATA 208, but I don't know enough to pin it down as a 208S or a 208CS. The standard version would have had the Fiat 2.0 litre V8, but I believe they could also come with Cadillac or Chrysler engines. Expert opinions???

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by HistoricMustang
.... this beautiful machine. ....

Pardon?

DCN

[HistoricMustang]

Doug, keep in mind I grew up with the Gremlin and Pinto so just about anything else looks "cool".

A few years after the photo "Bond, James Bond" was doing his thing on the Southern Drive-In circuit in his Aston Martin and I really worked that with the girls. In the early 60's it was very hot in the South with only one way to get cool at the local picture show.

If I can get the scanner to pay me some attention I will get up a photo of the Cunningham Coupe at the same event. Notes say that it was "Hemi" powered!

Henry

[T54]

I like the '48 Buick behind the Siata-Aston-Zagato-Thingie.

[dbw]

it's got a siata badge on the front and the bumperetts look the same as the 1400 daina...mebbe a stab. farina? i would say a 208 as a minimum...a big deetroit v8 is a possibility.

DCN ok..so it's no beauty but often some of these hunky chopped-top coupes can be rather cool in the flesh [or metal... whatever...]...i am a sucker for gunslits...

also looks a good long foot lower than the buick

[HistoricMustang]

Here is the Cunningham coupe at the same event. Notes say perhaps this one was "Hemi" powered.

Henry

[Mike Argetsinger]

Henry - this would be on March 14, 1954. The car is a Cunningham C4RK and is being driven by Charles Moran. He finished 8th in the race. The C4Rs first appeared in 1952.

This is one of only three C4Rs that Cunningham built. It was the only coupe and had the C4RK designation. These were the most successful of all the Cunningham race cars. The coupe was never as successful as the roadsters although I always greatly admired it - and still do. Coincidentally, one of the two C4R roadsters is presently in residence at the Research Center at Watkins Glen - on loan from Miles Collier (he also has the C4RK that you have in the picture). But only for a few more days, it goes back to Florida to make room for the Lotus 49 that I have mentioned in another current thread. We have had it since March 15.

It is indeed, as you suggest, powered by a Chrysler Hemi V-8. Chrysler was closely involved in the race development of the engines that went in to the Cunningham race cars. If you want more data I would be happy to provide it.

[T54]

Actually, all the Cunningham cars worthy of the name were powered by Chrysler "Fire Power" hemispheric V8's, except for ONE:



This one had a 261ci Offy. French gasoline did not agree with the engine's combustion chamber and cooling system.

T54

[HistoricMustang]

Mike, thanks for all the information.

Am somewhat confused (and that is not hard to do) as the individual that gave me the photograph said it was from the 1959 SCCA "Souther Road Race" at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia and the event was organized by the SCCA out of Westport, Ct.

Here is a side look at the Aston.

Henry

[T54]

HistoricMustang,

As the first reply said accurately, your "Aston Martin" is in fact a SIATA 208, either with a US-built V8 or a FIAT V8. Here is a pic of a nearly identical car (or the same...??) at Monthlery in 1957:



Regards,

T54

[HistoricMustang]

Why were American V-8's "shoehorned" into foreign cars? Of course the Cunningham was not foreign.

Was it cost or power?

I have a photo from Augusta of a Ferrari with a Chevy "409".

What gives?

When the high dollar motor let loose did they simply go to the local salvage yard and pick up a V-8?

Henry

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by HistoricMustang
Mike, thanks for all the information.

Am somewhat confused (and that is not hard to do) as the individual that gave me the photograph said it was from the 1959 SCCA "Souther Road Race" at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia and the event was organized by the SCCA out of Westport, Ct.

No. He is just mixed up on the year. It is definitely March 14, 1954. The full name of the race was the Savannah National Championship Sports Car Race at Hunter Air Force Base. It was organized and sanctioned by the SCCA and their headquarters at the time was in Westport, Connecticut.

Henry - I know I'm right on this one - but for further proof take a close look at the other race cars on the grid in the Cunningham picture. Also the street cars parked in the background of all the photos. This could not be 1959. But irrespective of any of that - you can be assured that it is 3/14/54.

[T54]

Why were American V-8's "shoehorned" into foreign cars?

Simple: the "furriners" were generally lighter, handled better and had better brakes, but had pitiful power or notorious reliability or parts problems. A SIATA with a FIAT was a boat anchor. With a Chrysler, it was a rocket.
In the case of the many Ferrari fitted with Chevies or Fords, once the original engine had been blown and looking at the potential repair bill from Enzo reps, a sane person would get the same or more power from a small-block Chevy for a fraction of the money, with greater reliability.
Cunningham began to make cars "like the Euros" along with Frank Kurtis and was later very successfully followed by Troutman & Barnes, then Lance Reventlow and many others. Never discount the 'Muricans from finding a better way to do things for less cost.
Regards,

T54

[soubriquet]

Was the SIATA bodied by Zagato?

Cheers
S

[Don Capps]

Henry,

Listen to Mike, I have rarely been led astray by him -- well, at least not on matters having to do with factual info on races....

SCCA activites in the Southeast were pretty interesting in the sense that in 1954 the Cunningham did a sweep through the area racing at not only Hunter AFB -- it would not be a Hunter AAF for some years, the late-1960s I think -- but at Walterboro in South Carolina.

In addition, although this was not exactly a hotbed of sports car racing, there was far more activitiy than most realize. Indeed, although truly club racing in every sense of the word, there was quite a few events carried out in the Southeast and some very dedicated supporters of the SCCA who made no end of effort to put cars on a track somewhere.....

[T54]

Was the SIATA bodied by Zagato?

According to Italian SIATA specialists, it was inspired by the Zagato designed FIAT "Otto Vu" of 1952. But they claim that Vignale and not Zagato built the bodies. on the many pics of 208's, I don't see the usual large "Z" on the sides...

[dretceterini]

The 208 spiders were all bodied by Motto of Torino. There are various coachbuilders who bodied the Siata and Fiat 8V coupes, including Vignale, Farina, and others. They weren't slow; the V-8 (pushrod) was only 2 liters.

Although not drop dead beautiful, they certainly aren't ugly.


Here is a link to an article I did on them which appeared on Veloce Today:
http://www.velocetod...ars/cars_25.php

[JB Miltonian]

I found a copy of Fawcett Books "Sports Car Album" from 1953 in my library, which has a picture of the 208S Coupe (the non-Aston Martin in this thread) and the Chrysler-Siata roadster. I found the text amusing:

"In addition to the Fiat-based cars, SIATA has built a limited number of chassis for Chrysler V8 "Fire Power" engines to the order of American customers. Like the Allard and Cunningham, the Chrysler-SIATA, with as much as 300 horsepower available, is by many people's standards greatly overpowered, taking advantage of tremendous engine torque and acceleration at the expense of such handling ease as one gets from less weight and bulk. The assumption that "locomotives" are easier to drive than light sports cars is, however, erroneous, since their greater mass and higher top speed call for the most alert and skilled driving techniques. Except for the miraculous thrill of their acceleration and top speeds, however, it's doubtful that the offer any more handling pleasure, or satisfaction of use, than more modest vehicles."

[T54]

They weren't slow; the V-8 (pushrod) was only 2 liters.

I am sure that you meant, "they were slow". With 105 to a claimed (but rarely attained) 120HP, these cars would have been dogs with the weight of the FIAT V8 boat anchor.

The assumption that "locomotives" are easier to drive than light sports cars is, however, erroneous, since their greater mass and higher top speed call for the most alert and skilled driving techniques.

Yes, what's the point? One has to assume that racing cars should be driven using "alert and skilled driving techniques", no?
Let me have 500HP, I will somehow manage, thank you very much.

T54

[dretceterini]

I have to disagree that the Fiat 8Vs and Siata 208s were slow relative to other 2 liter GTs of the early and mid 1950s.

These cars weighed around 2200 pounds, and actually did quite well within their class in the Mille Miglia and in other races even when modified that they had to race in the sports car, rather than the GT class.

[T54]

I have to disagree that the Fiat 8Vs and Siata 208s were slow relative to other 2 liter GTs of the early and mid 1950s.

I think no one questioned this. The comparison was between the 105-120HP 2-liter FIAT and a 300HP 5-liter plus Chrysler engine. As a 2-liter, the car may have been competitive with other period 2-liter cars, but compared with when fitted with US-built engines, it needed oars. As US V8-powered, as shown recently by the ex-Rick Cole, Robs Lamplough's white and blue coupe, the car is transformed from a slug into a rocket.
Regards,

T54

[dretceterini]

Guess I misundrestood what you were saying.

When these cars were new, they did rasonably well in their class. The cars that came to the US and had American V-8s installed were obviously faster, but never did anything in terms of being successful in races.

The Siata 208s spiders never had any real success either in the original form or with American V-8s installed.

There was only one "factory" car built with an American V-8

[Frank S]

Originally posted by HistoricMustang
Being from the South of the United States, I have problems with the English language as well as English automobiles.

A friend gave me this late 50's photo of an Aston Martin at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia and am wondering about more identification on this beautiful machine. It appears to be more than a converted street car.

Yeah, "Beautiful". Even as clean as this , there is some grotesque stuck on it. 52K Tom Cardin image, early 50s Torrey Pines

[JB Miltonian]

Stu: The Fawcett book I mentioned shows a picture with the caption "Chrysler-powered SIATA roadster is a very potent test prototype first built for John Perona of N.Y." There are also a couple of pictures of the chassis of this car. Are you saying that the one pictured in this article is the only one produced by the factory with an American V8? In the text it also says "At the time of our visit to the SIATA factory, the first car was just being completed and no prices were ready for quotation." I'm not doubting you, just wondering if the car in the article was a "one off", or if you are aware of a different one.

[dretceterini]

JB:

Yes, I am talking about that car. Only 1 car was ever built by the factory with an American V-8. I believe Norb McNamara now owns it.

In addition to the Fawcett article, there was an article on it in Classic and Sportscar or Thoroughbred and Classic about 5 years ago.

Any number of Fiat 8Vs and Siata 208s had American V8s installed here later.

Tony Adriaensens, who did the Alfa GTA book is working on Siata book.

[JB Miltonian]

Thank you, sir! Interesting stuff. Found the other article you mentioned in Classic & Sportscar, May 1997. The car is identified as a SIATA 200SC in the heading and as a 200CS in the text. Owned at the time of the article by Court Whitlock.

[HistoricMustang]

Don, Mike and others. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways.

So much to learn, but I do have some pretty good teachers hanging out here at TNF.

I am going to try and put up a photo of the "Chevy 409" Ferrari that was involved in the USRRC series in the early 60's. Complete with a Confederate Flag.

Henry

[HistoricMustang]

Bob Ward's Ferrari with Chevy "409" power that competed in the United States Road Racing Championship series in 1964. Have nothing more on the car except I am pretty damn sure it did not come from the factory with a push rod V-8 installed.

Henry

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
Thank you, sir! Interesting stuff. Found the other article you mentioned in Classic & Sportscar, May 1997. The car is identified as a SIATA 200SC in the heading and as a 200CS in the text. Owned at the time of the article by Court Whitlock.

JB:

Gee how time flies. It's hard to belive the article was that long ago....and yes, it is Court Whitlock and not Norb that owns the car. I belive the actual Tipo for the car should be 400L. I have no idea why some cars are labeled 200CS and others are 200SC...and some are 208CS or 208SC...

[antonvrs]

"I think no one questioned this. The comparison was between the 105-120HP 2-liter FIAT and a 300HP 5-liter plus Chrysler engine. As a 2-liter, the car may have been competitive with other period 2-liter cars, but compared with when fitted with US-built engines, it needed oars. As US V8-powered, as shown recently by the ex-Rick Cole, Robs Lamplough's white and blue coupe, the car is transformed from a slug into a rocket.
Regards,
T54"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T54, your reference to the ex Rick Cole, Robs Lamplough, Siata coupe(chassis BS537) as being American V8 powered intrigues me.
Between 1982 and 1984 I restored this car for Rick and we campaigned it in a number of historic races at Laguna Seca, Willow Springs, Kansas City, the Chicago Historics etc over the next few years- ALWAYS with a 2 litre Fiat-Siata 8V motor. The last year of that period it was running it's original serial number motor with 2 34IF4C Weber carbs(serial #BS125). Before that, it ran a "normal" 8V motor with 2 36DCF3 twin choke Webers(BS126).
We had considerable success with that car- Rick is a good driver and the car was pretty reliable.
The car is now owned by Craig Davis in Monterey, CA and still is running the Siata/Fiat 8V motor, BS125, as it has since about 1988.
So, If you saw the car run driven by Robs Lamplough, Rick Cole or anybody else in the last 40 years, it was powered by a 2 litre Fiat/Siata V8.
NOT A CHEVY, A FORD, OR ANY OTHER AMERICAN V8!
Emphatically,
Anton Krivanek
Vintage Racing Services
Los Angeles, CA

[antonvrs]

As to the car in the first post in this thread, it's a Siata 208 CS coupe, originally designed and built by Stabilimenti Farina. A slightly restyled version was built Carrozeria Balbo when St. Farina was unable to continue with the series and about 10 of this type were built.
These cars were on an oval tube chassis somewhat more sophisticated than the Fiat Otto Vu round tube chassis.
The ex-Rick Cole coupe referred to by T54 and myself above is a one-off built on a Siata 208 Spider(Tipo 200BS) chassis for Ernie McAffee. The Spider chassis is fabricated sheet metal semi-backbone unit completely different to either the Otto Vu or the Siata 208CS.
Anton

[T54]

Well Anton, I misunderstood what Rick and Robs said to me and congratulate you for having got this car to be so good. I must have been distracted indeed and to be frank was surprised to see this car go so well.
But good driver or not the thing looked fast, a LOT faster than I remember ANY 2-liter SIATA ever to be. Do you have any dyno figures after you were done with the engine?
Regards,

T54

[antonvrs]

T 54-
Thank you for the compliment.
On an engine dyno at Ken's Engines and machine in Ventura, CA the last one I did made 121 hp at 6000 rpm using the standard 2 twin-choke Webers. Rick's motor with the 4 throat Webers made about 110 at the rear wheels but I couldn't get it to pull hard over about 6200. I think that with some developement work on the (very rare) 8-port heads in that car it could make substantially more power but at some point it would need a girdle on the bottom end.
The 8V motors were originally designed as limousine motors and have 3-main cranks.
Just out of curiousity, where did you see Robs Lamplough drive the car?
BTW, that car(BS537) did have a Chevy in it - in 1962 - but the only time it ever raced in that configuration was at Lions drag strip in Long Beach, CA and I don't know what kind of times it turned.
As we raced it, with the Fiat/Siata V8, 2 seats and bare, painted, interior it weighed about 1750 lbs with water, oil and 5 gallons of fuel.
Anton

[T54]

Just out of curiousity, where did you see Robs Lamplough drive the car?

My memory is vague but I seem to recall that he drove and won his race at Laguna Seca. Not sure on the year, possibly 1996 or 1998?
I did not actually see the race because that year I had so many problems with my own cars, I got FIVE tows in one weekend, and I am trying to just forget it!

[dbw]

...while 500 hp seems overly adequate i do recall a certain 4-cyl lotus 23 driven by some skinny scotsman that [for a while] was able to quite well thankyou against a hoard of pretty huge monsters....


and by the way...lost in the siataspeak...was/is there a ever a TOTALLY cooler coupe than the cunningham???? i mean really now.....

[dretceterini]

The C3 "street" coupe bodied by Vignale is OK, but far from beautiful. The C4 coupe is more brutal looking than pretty. To my mind the best looking coupe in the last 40 years is probibly the '63 Ferrari GTO.

[David Birchall]

The Aston Martin heading drew me to this thread but I resisted commenting because the other comments were so interesting
As owner of an Aston DB2 I find a lot to compare with this car: The time period, the original power output, the weight and, dare I say, the styling, to a great extent. Also like this car the Aston engine was designed for fairly staid use (And mass production). Fortunately it has a rather tougher bottom end and is able to withstand tuning to about 170 bhp without resorting to serious money.
Perhaps dretceterini has a photo of Jarl DeBoer's Ghia coupe of about the same period? It was an 8V that ended up with a Chevy V8 and 2 speed automatic and raced in vintage events in that form until fairly recently!

[dretceterini]

Not DeBoer's Ghia but another one is on the internet; in fact if you use google image search there are quite a few Fiat 8V photos on the internet.

Here is the link to the Ghia bodied car..

http://images.google...ghia/ghia20.jpg

[antonvrs]

Re: Siatas and Fiat 8Vs with American engines-
It's a tribute to Fiat's engineering that the Siata 208 Spider works as well as it does with an American V8. I put quite a few miles on a 208S with a hot 327 Chevy and a Powerglide and it wasn't bad. I know a guy who has a 208S with one of the original Cobra 260 V8s in it and it's been running that way since 1963- with the Fiat rear end, axles, wheels etc. It's was driven from Santa Monica, CA to Washington state, then to NYC in the '70s and now resides on Long Island. He wouldn't think of restoring it to it's original engine.
Myself, I happen to prefer the balance of the all-independent chassis and the unique sound of the 2 litre, 70 degree, all alloy Fiat 8V motor.
Some guys like girls with big Bazooms, some of us like little cupcakes. To each his own.
Anton

[dretceterini]

The reason at least one of the cars doesn't have the proper motor is someone Anton and I both know and love ( ) wants insane money for the parts he has.

To me, putting an American motor in cars like this is plain wrong

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by dbw
[B

and by the way...lost in the siataspeak...was/is there a ever a TOTALLY cooler coupe than the cunningham???? i mean really now..... [/B]

I agree dbw. As I said in an earlier post - the C4RK has always really done it for me. A side note - regarding the photo of the car (above) with Charles Moran driving at Hunter Air Force in Georgia in 1954 - at this time Moran had already purchased the car from Briggs Cunningham. Today the car resides in Naples, Florida with Miles Collier's collection. As does one of the two C4R roadsters (the one we had on loan at the Research Center in Watkins Glen from March of this year until yesterday).

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by dretceterini
The reason at least one of the cars doesn't have the proper motor is someone Anton and I both know and love ( ) wants insane money for the parts he has.

To me, putting an American motor in cars like this is plain wrong

Err, would that be someone I "know and love" too Stu?

[dretceterini]

David:

I don't know if you know the notorious person who's initials are PZ.

[antonvrs]

Stu, if you're referring to Mr. Z's motor it changed hands a few years ago and I was able to put it in the hands of the owner of a Siata spider in the San Francisco area.
Anton