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Who knows the story of the Jarama 1970 starting money dispute?


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#1 mgamauf

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 16:44

In 1970, there were more starters than the year before and it seems that Jarama did not want to pay enough starting money to let all participants race.

Mario Andretti started albeit his qualifying time of 1:25,7, while Andrea de Adamich failed to qualify, after he had done a 1:25,15 in practice.

So what were the qualifying rules in this race?

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#2 Don Capps

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 17:02

I thought we had covered this before.... http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=34962 ....but wasn't sure.

#3 Keir

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 17:35

Certain drivers were granted automatic starting spots regardless of their qual. time.

There was a big row on the starting grid when Rob Walker's car, as driven by Graham Hill, was not going to be allowed to start.

Interesting day at Jarama and more was to come. Just ask Jackie Oliver and Jacky Ickx!!

#4 Twin Window

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 10:59

Quite an ironic dispute on the part of the organisers, when you consider the pathetic number of finishers!

Twinny

#5 Keir

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 13:44

Five finishers!! I do believe that is a record??

#6 Muzza

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 15:04

Originally posted by Keir
Five finishers!! I do believe that is a record??


Hello, Keir,


These are the Formula 1 races with the fewest number of finishers:

- Monaco 1966 and Monaco 1996 (*) : 4 finishers
- Germany 1956, Belgium 1966, Spain 1968, Monaco 1968, Spain 1970, San Marino 1982 and United States 1984: 5 finishers

(*) : Monaco 1996 finishers includes a car which was in the pits when the chequered flag fell.

Source: "Grand Prix Data Book 1997", by David Hayhoe and David Holland, published by Duke Marketing, United Kingdom, ISBN 0-9529352-0-4.

Cheers,


Muzza

#7 Macca

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 16:00

And another odd thing about Monaco 1966 - of the four finishers, three were in BRMs. And while it was the first race of the new 3-litre formula, none of the four were full 3-litre cars - but IIRC a Cooper-Maserati was running but hadn't completed enough distance to be classified.

(and Frankenheimer filmed it for That Movie)


Paul M

#8 GIGLEUX

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 16:18

As you speak of finishers, I'm sorry but at Monaco 1966 there were 7 and not 4.
Only four were officially classified the other three having not fulfiled the required minimum distance.

This is writen to avoid confusion!

#9 Muzza

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 16:37

Good point, Jean-Maurice,

It is worth clarifying the difference between finishers and point-scorers - and you are right, more than four cars were running at the end of the 1966 Monaco GP, even though points were attributed to four cars only.

I checked a few books and I found that it was prior to that very season that a new rule was introduced, determining that a driver would need to complete 90% of the race distance to be classified.

In the Monaco GP - which, as Macca wrote, was the first race of the 3-liter era - the final result was:

1st Jackie Stewart, 100 laps
2nd Bandini, 100 laps
3rd Graham Hill, 99 laps
4th Bondurant, 95 laps...

...then...

Ginther, 80 laps (stopped, driveshaft)
Ligier, 75 laps
Bonnier, 73 laps...

...followed by all other drivers, that had retired earlier in the race.

Ginther stopped on lap 80, so he cannot be considered a finisher. Also, he was not eligible for points as his Cooper did not cover 90% of the race distance. Ligier and Bonnier could be called finishers (*), as the cars were running at the end of the race, but could not be classified as they had not crossed the 90% threshold either.

Maybe it would be better to say that the 1966 Monaco GP had six finishers, and four cars classified .

(*) depending on the definition of what a finisher is. If a finisher is a driver/car that is still running at the end of the race, independent of their eligibility for points or classification (or not) in the race, then Ligier and Bonnier were finishers.

Cheers,


Muzza

#10 fines

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 17:16

Originally posted by Muzza
1st Jackie Stewart, 100 laps
2nd Bandini, 100 laps
3rd Graham Hill, 99 laps
4th Bondurant, 95 laps...

That would make it two finishers, wouldn't it?;)

#11 Muzza

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 17:22

Originally posted by fines

That would make it two finishers, wouldn't it?;)


VoilĂ , that's another way of seeing it.

It is all a matter of how things are defined - and the gray areas inbetween them...

#12 FRWL

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 18:34

Originally posted by Don Capps
I thought we had covered this before.... http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=34962 ....but wasn't sure.

Don has done very good job with his article about Spain'70 !!! (:up: :up: :up: ) But I wonder if this GP was the first ever WDC GP where Michelins tires were used?

#13 mgamauf

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 17:21

So lots of things are now clearer to me:

BUT...

With all the information I now reconstructed the following:

Saturday 4th practice - which was interrupted by Oliver's wreckage and counted for the grid order
-------------------------

Pescarolo 1:24,90, because he started the race in front of Oliver
Oliver 1:25,00
McLaren 1:25,00
Siffert 1:25,38
Courage 1:25,40
Servoz-Gavin 1:25,46
---------------------
Andretti 1:25,70
de Adamich unknown time or his 1:25,15
Miles unknown time or his 1:25,30
Eaton unknown time, maybe his 1:26,40, but faster than Soler-Roig
Soler-Roig unknown time, maybe his 1:25,80, but slower than Eaton
Stommelen no time

Saturday 6th practice, which counted for "qualification":
----------------------------------------

Oliver 1:24,44
McLaren 1:24,54
Servoz-Gavin 1:24,54
Andretti 1:24,62
Pescarolo unknown time, slower than his 1:24,90, but clearly faster than 1:25,10, because Stommelen was first reserve
Stommelen 1:25,10 - first reserve
-------------------
de Adamich unknown time or his 1:25,15
Miles unknown time or his 1:25,30
Soler-Roig unknown time, maybe his 1:25,80, but faster than Eaton
Eaton unknown time, maybe his 1:26,40, but slower than Soler-Roig
Siffert no time or did not improve - didn't know the importance of this session
Courage clearly no time, wasn't it?

So I don't understand this line in the thread
http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=34962 :

Once the race actually got underway, the crash between Ickx and Oliver created a scene which even the Marx Brothers would have been in awe of with foam everywhere, burning gasoline floating on water, drivers dodging the crashed cars and firemen and marshals -- and cars being coated in foam as they passed through the area.

As for the times given by the organizers....

1 7 Jack Brabham Brabham/Ford 1'23.90
2 5 Denny Hulme McLaren/Ford 1'24.10
3 1 Jackie Stewart March/Ford 1'24.20
4 4 J.P.Beltoise Matra 1'24.46
5 10 Pedro Rodriguez BRM 1'24.50
6 9 Chris Amon March/Ford 1'24.65
7 2 Jacky Ickx Ferrari 1'24.70
8 3 Jochen Rindt Lotus/Ford 1'24.80
9 22 Henri Pescarolo Matra 1'24.90
10 15 Jackie Oliver BRM 1'25.00 (1min24.44sec)
11 11 Bruce McLaren McLaren/Ford 1'25.00 (1min 24.54sec)
12 8 John Surtees McLaren/Ford 1'25.20
13 12 Piers Courage De Tomaso/Ford 1'25.40 (1min 24.77sec -- non-starter)
14 16 J.Servoz-Gavin March/Ford 1'25.46 (1min 24.54sec)
15 6 Graham Hill Lotus/Ford 1'25.54
16 18 Mario Andretti March/Ford 1'25.70 (1min 24.62sec)
17 24 Rolf Stommelen Brabham/Ford - - (1min 25.10sec)
Not qualified
18 20 A.de Adamich McLaren/Alfa Romeo 1'25.15
19 19 John Miles Lotus/Ford 1'25.30
20 14 Jo Siffert March/Ford 1'25.38
21 21 George Eaton BRM 1'26.40
22 23 Alex Soler-Roig Lotus/Ford 1'25.8

.... the times in bowlegs are those that Pritchard gives for the 'qualifying session' if it were better than the time used otherwise -- plus, the time for Stommelen was never 'officially' released at the time...
.
.
.
You see my problem: When should Courage have posted his 1:24,77???

#14 GIGLEUX

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 17:15

Originally posted by mgamauf
You see my problem: When should Courage have posted his 1:24,77??? [/B]


Maybe this can help you?

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#15 mgamauf

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 22:37

Great stuff!! :clap:

Even though this document contains two discrepancies:

Rodriguez is credited a 1:24,10 on the grid table - since he would have been on the front row with this time (which he wasn't), the times in the righter table seem correct (1:24,7 and 1:24,5)

Furthermore Graham Hill is credited a 1:24,54, which is more exact than in the righter table. :

But AFTER ALL, these times explain a lot. Thank you so very much!!
Qualification was in fact only for sorting out - only the times together with all participants were taken into account for the grid order

With this information the development of the times shows as following:

1st practice Friday - for all:
===================
Hulme 1:24,1 - fix
Brabham 1:24,5 - fix
Rodriguez 1:24,5 - fix
Stewart 1:24,6 - fix
Rindt 1:24,8 - fix
Oliver 1:25,0
Beltoise 1:25,1 - fix
Surtees 1:25,2 - fix
Pescarolo 1:25,2
Courage 1:25,4
Siffert: 1:25,6
Ickx 1:25,8 - fix
Andretti 1:26,0
Miles 1:26,0
McLaren 1:26,4
de Adamich 1:26,4
Hill 1:26,6 - fix
Amon 1:26,7 - fix
Stommelen 1:27,0
Servoz-Gavin 1:27,1
Soler-Roig 1:27,4
Eaton 1:27,5

2nd Training Friday - for Qual
====================
Siffert 1:25,3
Oliver 1:25,4
Courage 1:25,6
McLaren 1:25,7
Pescarolo 1:25,7 (order?)
Andretti 1:25,8
-----------------
de Adamich 1:25,8 (order?)
Miles 1:25,9
Stommelen 1:26,2
Servoz-Gavin 1:26,8
Soler-Roig 1:27,0
Eaton 1:28,0

3rd Training Saturday - for all
====================
not participated: Courage, Miles, de Adamich, Eaton, Soler-Roig

Brabham 1:23,9 (1:24,5) - fix
Hulme 1:24,3 (1:24,1) - fix
Stewart 1:24,2 (1:24,6) - fix
Beltoise 1:24,46 (1:25,1) - fix
Rodriguez 1:24,7 (1:24,5) - fix
Amon 1:24,65 (1:26,7) - fix
Ickx 1:24,70 (1:25,8) - fix
Rindt 1:24,8 (1:24,8) - fix
Pescarolo 1:24,90 (1:25,2)
Oliver 1:25,0 (1:25,0)
McLaren 1:25,0 (1:26,4)
Surtees 1:26,0 (1:25,2) - fix
Siffert: 1:25,38 (1:25,6)
Courage no time (1:25,4)
Stommelen 1:25,40 (1:27,0)
Servoz-Gavin 1:25,46 (1:27,1)
Hill 1:25,54 (1:26,6) - fix
Andretti 1:25,70 (1:26,0)
Miles no time (1:26,0)
de Adamich no time (1:26,4)
Soler-Roig no time (1:27,4)
Eaton no time (1:27,5)

4th Training Saturday - for Qual
========================
not participated: Siffert - unlikely that he was not informed, as Don Capps once claimed
I believe, he didn't realize, that the times did dramaticely drop in the last session.
Crash of Courage after setting an impressive time
Oliver stops with broken stub axle on circuit - practice stopped and restarted

Oliver 1:24,44 (1:25,4)
McLaren 1:24,54 (1:25,7)
Pescarolo 1:24,59 (1:25,7)
Andretti 1:24,64 (1:25,8)
Courage 1:24,77 (1:25,6)
Servoz-Gavin 1:25,0 (1:26,8)
-----------------
Stommelen 1:25,10 (1:26,2)
de Adamich 1:25,15 (1:25,8)
Siffert no time (1:25,3)
Miles 1:25,30 (1:25,9)
Eaton 1:26,4 (1:28,0)
Soler-Roig 1:27,0

FINAL GRID:
=============
Courage's car could not be repaired in time - so Stommelen was allowed to race

Brabham 1:23,9 (1:24,5) - fix
Hulme 1:24,3 (1:24,1) - fix
Stewart 1:24,2 (1:24,6) - fix
Beltoise 1:24,46 (1:25,1) - fix
Rodriguez 1:24,7 (1:24,5) - fix
Amon 1:24,65 (1:26,7) - fix
Ickx 1:24,70 (1:25,8) - fix
Rindt 1:24,8 (1:24,8) - fix
Pescarolo 1:24,90 (1:25,2)
Oliver 1:25,0 (1:25,0)
McLaren 1:25,0 (1:26,4)
Surtees 1:26,0 (1:25,2) - fix
DNQ Siffert: 1:25,38 (1:25,6)
DNS Courage no time (1:25,4)
Stommelen 1:25,40 (1:27,0)
Servoz-Gavin 1:25,46 (1:27,1)
Hill 1:25,54 (1:26,6) - fix
Andretti 1:25,70 (1:26,0)
DNQ Miles no time (1:26,0)
DNQ de Adamich no time (1:26,4)
DNQ Soler-Roig no time (1:27,4)
DNQ Eaton no time (1:27,5)

An interesting question after all:

WHY did the officials measure the times only down to tenths in the first two sessions, but switched (partly) to hundredths on Saturday. Could it be the fact, that based on the 2nd practice times Andretti OR de Adamich could have failed to make the grid with the same time as the other...

#16 mgamauf

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 23:01

Another detail: Rolf Stommelen was first reserve, but started from 13th spot!!

Therefore FORIX is wrong, where Stommelen started from the back of the grid! :smoking:

#17 GIGLEUX

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 16:44

Originally posted by mgamauf
Another detail: Rolf Stommelen was first reserve, but started from 13th spot!!

Therefore FORIX is wrong, where Stommelen started from the back of the grid! :smoking:


Not so sure! What I posted is from Moteurs, a french quarterly of the time. It is my only source giving all the qualifying times (Sport Auto, Motorsport and Sport Moteur didn't and I have not Autosport or Autocourse) but for me their starting grid is not the good one; Sport Auto and Motorsport placed Stommelen on the last row and I trust GĂ©rard Crombac and Denis Jenkinson who were the best at their time! The reason the best time of Stommelen was not retained seems to be that it was realised by Brabham in Rolf's car.
Conclusion: always the same, to be sure have a picture!
Maybe our Spanish members can help: Felix? Reyna?

#18 Kekefan

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 03:23

There also was a petition signed by the drivers to get the grid up to 20 cars, meaning that De Adamich, Siffert, Miles and Soler-Roig could start the race.
They were invited by the Real Automobil Club de Espana to take place on the false starting grid. But the CSI representatives were watching and the Spanish organizers came back on their decision and the 4 drivers were expelled manu militari. :mad: :eek:
A real mess! :rolleyes:
This was reported by Michel Hubin in his book titled: Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs 70, page 40.

#19 GIGLEUX

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 08:02

Originally posted by Kekefan
There also was a petition signed by the drivers to get the grid up to 20 cars, meaning that De Adamich, Siffert, Miles and Soler-Roig could start the race.
They were invited by the Real Automobil Club de Espana to take place on the false starting grid. But the CSI representatives were watching and the Spanish organizers came back on their decision and the 4 drivers were expelled manu militari. :mad: :eek:
A real mess! :rolleyes:
This was reported by Michel Hubin in his book titled: Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs 70, page 40.


The given motive was that the event was insured for 16 cars.

As written by Jenkinson in Motor Sport May 1970: "confusion was in full swing and it only needed a full orchestral baking for the whole production to have scored a hit at Covent Garden Opera House"

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#20 Kekefan

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 16:22

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


As written by Jenkinson in Motor Sport May 1970: "confusion was in full swing and it only needed a full orchestral baking for the whole production to have scored a hit at Covent Garden Opera House"


:lol:

#21 john winfield

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 11:48

Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere, but here's a BBC Wheelbase programme showing highlights of the 1970 meeting at Jarama.  Bitter-sweet footage of Piers Courage and Bruce McLaren prior to the race, and Jochen Rindt chatting away in english about the new Lotus 72.  Various drivers and team managers are asked about the controversial qualification system, amongst them Ken Tyrrell and Jackie Stewart, who disagree completely!  Sadly, Jo Siffert isn't interviewed, but there is footage of him scrapping on the grid as he and the March are dragged away!

 

Doug may have mentioned it in the Brabham thread but I had forgotten that Jack, despite spinning twice on the foam and water left after the Oliver/Ickx accident, hunted down Stewart and looked ready to take the lead before his Cosworth went pop.

 

Anyway, the programme provides an authentic feel for 1970 Formula 1: cars, engineers, teams, drivers...and politics. The dangers are obvious too, even on a relatively bland track like Jarama - Ickx and Oliver were lucky to survive.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Trfs0N2GEQ8



#22 scheivlak

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Posted 24 October 2022 - 22:00

Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere, but here's a BBC Wheelbase programme showing highlights of the 1970 meeting at Jarama.  Bitter-sweet footage of Piers Courage and Bruce McLaren prior to the race, and Jochen Rindt chatting away in english about the new Lotus 72.  Various drivers and team managers are asked about the controversial qualification system, amongst them Ken Tyrrell and Jackie Stewart, who disagree completely!  Sadly, Jo Siffert isn't interviewed, but there is footage of him scrapping on the grid as he and the March are dragged away!

 

Doug may have mentioned it in the Brabham thread but I had forgotten that Jack, despite spinning twice on the foam and water left after the Oliver/Ickx accident, hunted down Stewart and looked ready to take the lead before his Cosworth went pop.

 

Anyway, the programme provides an authentic feel for 1970 Formula 1: cars, engineers, teams, drivers...and politics. The dangers are obvious too, even on a relatively bland track like Jarama - Ickx and Oliver were lucky to survive.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Trfs0N2GEQ8

Fantastic stuff. Frank Williams also has a quite contrary view to Ken Tyrrell's - quite understandably.....



#23 Porsche718

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Posted 25 October 2022 - 03:07

Wonderful, wonderful

 

Thank for sharing this gem :clap:



#24 70JesperOH

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Posted 25 October 2022 - 11:53

Just read the DSJ report from Motor Sport - intreaging to say the least!

 

Jesper



#25 MCS

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Posted 25 October 2022 - 12:16

Marvellous.  Made my lunchtime today!  Incredible that it was over fifty years ago - doesn't feel like it.



#26 amerikalei

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Posted 25 October 2022 - 12:43

That was some excellent footage.  I recall therace report from Automobile Year as a kid, but in the US there was no Wheelbase program at the time. 

 

The first lap stationary panning shot of Stewart really conveyed the raw speed of F1: down near ground level, all the stationary objects blurred while the camera focuses on the car!  It's easy to forget how highly rated he was at the time, was a nice reminder. 

 

Also liked that many of the shots weren't so zoomed in, allowing for a greater appreciation of different lines, and relative handling.  I'd guess that some of this is due to the weight of the period equipment, but I can't help but wish current F1 TV directors would take note.



#27 Nick Planas

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Posted 25 October 2022 - 14:13

Nice to see the Mario interview too - I bet it never occurred to him that he might drive a modern F1 car at not sluggish speed in 2022...