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Miller-Gulf Specials


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#1 Cris

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 13:38

Rather than sidetrack the 'Production Numbers' thread, I thought I should start a new one.

[From the other thread]
DBW:

re the miller stuff...

"...now as an ex-owner of chassis#1 gulf four i can guarantee it does exist and in quite good complete original condition...the long lost chassis#2 was fairly recently unearthed by a well known eastern collector and is being restored with my old car as a reference[car #2 was surprising complete as well including original body panels,tho squashed enough to hide the cars identity to the less critical eye]...both original engines have resided in a damp chicago basement for eons and have finally been liberated ..they now reside with their respective chassis...it's a fine example of my theory that the less sucessful a race car was when new the more likely it might survive intact....it will indeed be cool to see the pair together again.

note...car #1 will be restored to it's final incarnation while car #1 is being returned to the prototype configuration..complete with copper tube surface cooling!"


Was chassis #2 found in New England by any chance? I have a note that states that what I imagine is #2 was destroyed/junked at some point. Was your ex chassis #1 the car that was owned by Weaver through 1968 and had at one point an XK120 engine fitted? Do you have any photos of the #2 chassis as it currently looks?

And just to clarify, these (below) are the two cars we are discussing, correct?

Posted Image

By the way, I just recently discovered this message board...wish I had known about it sooner. Thanks.
Cris

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#2 dbw

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 16:44

well cris..looks like you and me here....

it's difficult for me to reveal much information as to current affairs on the cars...the owners will,i'm sure,make a big splash when they're ready.suffice to say,car#2 was extracted "from under the nose" of those who should have known better....and it is indeed in excellent hands.

now as to my old car,it may have had another engine installed.. i can almost guarantee it never ran [or at least able to stop!!] it had some strange chassis rail braces added but as a person who has done many engine swaps this car showed to me none of the telltale signs...

because of the unavailability of the original engine,i installed a 4cyl module from the tucker-miller a510 aeroengine..thankfully it will be replaced with the correct unit.

a funny story [one of many] occurred in my tenure as caretaker of the car...everyone had seen the dee's book and a few "old timers" had been at the speedway in the late 30's...they all were very interested in the annular disc brakes and spent long hours telling me how they were configured and worked....when it was time to dismantle them ,two things became perfectly clear;no one had been inside these units in a real long time!!!the second was that they most likely wouldn't work as built...this was confirmed when i inspected the ims museum's six..they all started with the same brakes and the modifications made to the brakes on the six[which actually ran] made imminent sense when compared to the units on the 4...[and no one knew about the dual master cyls submerged IN the fluid reservoir..]

the moral here is that the recollections of eyewitnesses and old railbirds may have become little more than folklore over the years...

i have much more technical info[gleaned from the actual car and surviving gulf drawings] on the fours but time prohibits right now...

as to the photo you posted,i would say that chassis#1 is on the right....the shape of the upper nostrils are a giveaway....i'd love to see more shots if you have them...

#3 Cris

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 19:10

DBW, sent you a PM.
Thanks.

#4 MarkBisset

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 11:38

I chanced upon a beautiful cutaway drawing of the Gulf Miller mid-engined machine by Clarence LaTourette which piqued my interest in a couple of Harry Miller’s designs;
https://primotipo.co...4/gulf-millers/
Mark

#5 karlcars

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 07:57

Yes, we commissioned that cutaway from Clarence to go with Griff's story on the Millers -- "Harry Miller's Cars from Mars." He had to work from photos so inevitably some crossover was evident.

 

Very excited to know of their existence and revival!  :clap:



#6 FlatBlack

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 15:52

Like so many big cars from the late 30s and early 40s, the Miller Gulfs, especially the rear-engined jobs, looked vaguely aquatic. Wilbur Shaw's "Catfish" is another example. 



#7 Jim Thurman

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 20:28

Like so many big cars from the late 30s and early 40s, the Miller Gulfs, especially the rear-engined jobs, looked vaguely aquatic. Wilbur Shaw's "Catfish" is another example. 

 

"The Catfish" and Shaw's car were two different cars. "The Catfish", built by Clyde Adams, raced in the 1932 '500' (driven by Stubby Stubblefield), inspired Shaw to have Myron Stevens build what would be nicknamed "The Pay Car." Shaw had Stevens improve upon many of the ideas of "The Catfish." 

 

I'm surprised Michael didn't tackle this one, I guess he's busy  :)


Edited by Jim Thurman, 07 July 2019 - 15:56.


#8 Steve L

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 19:49

What happened to "The Pay Car" please?

#9 Tim Murray

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 20:20

It was badly damaged in George Metzler’s fatal accident at Indianapolis in 1949. Was it ever rebuilt?

#10 Collombin

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 20:28

Mark Dees in The Miller Dynasty said it still existed (as at 1994) in Nyquist single seat form.



#11 FlatBlack

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 20:40

"The Catfish" and Shaw's car were two different cars. "The Catfish", built by Clyde Adams, raced in the 1932 '500' (driven by Stubby Stubblefield), inspired Shaw to have Myron Stevens build what would be nicknamed "The Pay Car." Shaw had Stevens improve upon many of the ideas of "The Catfish." 

 

I'm surprised Michael didn't tackle this one, I guess he's busy  :)

 

Shaw's car was not the original catfish, but was modeled on it, and people, including Shaw himself, I believe, referred to it as the catfish. 



#12 Jim Thurman

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 18:04

Shaw's car was not the original catfish, but was modeled on it, and people, including Shaw himself, I believe, referred to it as the catfish. 

 

Correct, it was not. but It wasn't "The Catfish" at all, and yes, it was modeled after "The Catfish."  I covered that in my reply :)  I have seen some refer to it as "The Catfish", incorrectly so. Perhaps Shaw's ghost writer refered to it as "The Catfish", but he too, would be wrong  :)  



#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 18:22

I don't have my copy of Shaw's book to hand, but I don't think the Pay Car is referred to as the Catfish in there. I'd guess that this is similar to the confusion between the two Poison Lils - I've seen pictures of the Maserati V8RI captioned as the original Poison Lil dirt car. And vice versa!



#14 Michael Ferner

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 08:43

How about a compromise: "The Pay Fish"? :cat:

#15 Henri Greuter

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 09:35

How about a compromise: "The Pay Fish"? :cat:



Is `Pay Lil` out somehere too by then????

#16 Michael Ferner

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 13:11

To be a little more serious for a change, if you say "The Catfish", people will think of the Sparks-Weirick car, and if you say "Shaw's Catfish", people will understand that you mean the 1937 winner, all right, but it will lead to confusion: some people may think that it's one and the same car, others will simply confuse one with the other. Not good, and totally unnecessary, so just stick with the conventions to make life easier for all of us. Can we shake hands on that? :)