22 replies to this topic

[AdrianM]

Hi,
At the moment I am studying Honours History having graduated with a undergrad degree last year. In order to climb the ladder toward a future in the profession of teaching history I am looking at continuing on in Masters (also to avoid doing a job I don't want to do in the future). In applying for this I need to outline some of the potential thesis topics I might like to tackle and I have considered putting down as one of the options the link between the Nazi leadership and the racing efforts of Mercedes and Auto Union, the creation of the Nurburgring, racing at Donington etc. I know of the works of Hilton, Nixon and Stevenson but not much else.
I am not an expert on this as I have only looked at the racing side of things and up til this point I have not looked too deeply into this issue. My question is how widely the topic has been discussed, is there potential for further study and if so on what particular issues.
And I apologise for my ignorance on the topic considering many here have spent so much time and effort looking into these issues.
Any comment or suggestion will be very much appreciated.
Thank You

[Rob29]

Plenty of discussion already here just scroll down TNF and you should find likely thread titles. Only observation I have from your post is that the Nazis had nothing to do with the construction of the Nurburgring as it was in use 6 years before they came to power.

[D-Type]

It was all part of saying "we are the modern party for the future!" and of promoting nationalism.

Mussolini's Fascists also supported motor sport. They certainly encouraged the institution of the Mille Miglia, they then used the Tripoli GP and running the 1939 (or was it 1938?) Mille Miglia in Libya to consolidate the Italian claim to the country. They also heavily subsidised the Italian entries in the Schneider Trophy seaplane races.

Nazi Germany followed suit with the sponsorship of the GP cars. As well as offering a means of demonstrating technical superiority, GP racing also offered a means of investigating high powered engines and lightweight construction at a time when Germany was still abiding by the Versailles Treaty ban on production of military aircraft.

There have been other threads discussing this - use the 'Search BB' facility to find them.

Don't place too much credence on the story of Seaman giving a Nazi salute on minning the German GP. If you look at the film it was a half hearted token affair.

[Vitesse2]

Adrian: just to reinforce what Rob said, the Ring was built as a way of providing employment in what was a very depressed area at the time. The driving force behind it was Konrad Adenauer, who became a major post-war political figure in West Germany. He is also commemorated in the name of the Adenauerforst corner at the Ring. The Nazis had nothing to do with building it - in 1927 they were still a small regional party.

The Nazis did build a GP circuit though - the Deutschlandring. We have a thread on that! Then there's the mysterious Grenzlandring .....

Treat Stevenson's book with extreme care, especially as regards chronology - see my comments in the "recent books" thread!

[D-Type]

Another book that's worth a look is Huschke von Hanstein The Racing Baron by Tobias Aichele, ISBN 3-8290-3320-6. It has a few pages giving the background as to how von Hanstein ended up wearing SS insignia when he won the Mille Miglia. In some ways it's as interesting for what it doesn't say as for what it does.

[AdrianM]

Cool thanks guys. I will look into those issues and books

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The driving force behind it was Konrad Adenauer, who became a major post-war political figure in West Germany. He is also commemorated in the name of the Adenauerforst corner at the Ring.

Richard, not to forget the re-naming of the nearby village Adenau in honour to this great man...

[Holger Merten]

A complex system of politics, propaganda and business made it possible that both - AU and MB - stayed involved in GP motorsport for six (and more years, if you look after the AU files for 1940/41). On one hand there was the idea of propaganda for Germany through the nazi party. On the other hand, there was a great interest by AU and MB to built these GP cars for their image. At the end of 1937 AU talks loudly about a stop of their engagement. But they were "forced" to go on with running the GP cars. Although this kind of GP sport was horrorable expensive. (It was like today between the Top F1 teams).

I think if you want to get historial facts and backgrounds it's necessary to read german sources.

Look at my story on 8W, where I described the beginings of the AU racing department. What was the idea behind it and how things were going on. You will also find a table with many sources.

Good Luck.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by uechtel


Richard, not to forget the re-naming of the nearby village Adenau in honour to this great man...

That's TNF for you! Every day I learn something new!

[Holger Merten]

He guys stop joking.
Konrad Adenauer = Adenauerforst. cat:


There are people, who would believe that. :

[eukie]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The Nazis did build a GP circuit though - the Deutschlandring. We have a thread on that! Then there's the mysterious Grenzlandring .....

OK, I have to admit that my study about the Grenzlandring takes more time than expected - but I`m already nearly 100% sure that it was not intended for motor racing (at least not for car racing). It was built for military purposes, and the oval layout was adopted during the planning process because the nearby NSKK-school of Rheindahlen wanted to use it as a test track.

[Holger Merten]

Don't forget, that the Deutschlandring was in use before 1933. And that it took over six years to build the new track. Compared to two years of the even longer Nürburgring. Will say, if the Nazis were more interested in a Deutschlandring track, they had forced to built it in less time. So don't overrate the importance of the new track.

[eukie]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Don't forget, that the Deutschlandring was ins use before 1933. And that it tokk over six years to build the new track. Compared to two years of the even longer Nürburgring. Will say, if the Nazis were more interested in a Deutschlandring track, they had forced to builz in less time. So don't overrate the importance of the new track.

Hmm, Holger, maybe we should be a little bit more careful when mixing one of the "normal" hillclimbs ("Bergprüfungsfahrten") of the 1920s (in Hohnstein) with a new, purpose-built racetrack like the Deutschlandring whose construction, AFIK, started in 1933 - not exactly a Nazi-idea then, but they took over and already completed it.
But I agree with you that we should not overestimate this project - I still wonder why it was not published, not even a plan of the project. The refurbishing of the AVUS in 1936/37 and Hockenheim in 1938 seem to have been of more importance.

[Holger Merten]

I would agree, cause it was not the idea to mix up two characters of races, but to remember, that the track is older than 1940. Interesting for me, that Auto Union never made any interests to force that project in front of the door of their plant.

[AdrianM]

Hi guys,
I have read the chapter Racing and the Nazi's in Nixon's Racing the Silver Arrows but it does not go into much depth regarding the Nazi governments involvement in the racing programme.
Does the Stevenson book or any other works discuss this issue in further depth?
Thanks

[Vitesse2]

I wouldn't set much store by Stevenson's book.

My impression is that the Nazis were keen to take the credit for German success in GP racing, but that the control was at arm's length, in that there were two layers of admin/bureaucracy/control - call it what you will. Above the teams there was the ONS and above the ONS was the NSKK. The key figure in all this was Hühnlein.

[scheivlak]

Don't forget to read Caracciola's biography - quite insightful about the psychohistory of the German motorsport challenge.

[eukie]

A new scientific book on the NSKK, albeit german text only:
http://www.oldenbour...?T=57570&S=NSKK

Pics of the content pages:
http://img47.exs.cx/.../img57187sm.jpg
http://img106.exs.cx.../img57191xs.jpg
http://img66.exs.cx/.../img57200yh.jpg

Haven't read it yet - I'm waiting for some rainy days ...

[aldo]

AdrianM:
If you forward your e-mail, I can provide a bibliography I'm building on the 1934-1939 racing years, including some titles focusing on your main theme.
My e-mail is aldo.zana@agenpress.com

[bradbury west]

I endorse totally D Type's comments about Seaman and the salute. Seaman was a gentleman of the old school, as well as being a committed/professional/corporate racer, so he would know what "good form" was, and common courtesy, not least in the home GP of his team.

I have a newspaper cutting here somewhere from the Sunday Telegraph a couple of years ago on politics and football etc, so not my stuff. But the photo shows the England Football team in Berlin in 1936, to a man, giving very pronounced salutes as a team, in the centre of the pitch in the lineup at the start ceremony. No suggestion there that they were disloyal or traitors etc. Nuff said.

Roger Lund.

[rl1856]

My understanding is that the Nazi party sought to demonstrate Ayrian supperiority in all forums and in all places. Motor Sport was just one avenue for the party to exploit. Certainly the initial prize awarded to MB and AU was instrumental in their success, but within a few years both teams were spending vastly greater sums than what was awarded from the Govt. Bear in mind that while both teams were designing and racing their respective cars, MB was gaining insight into high performance supercharged engines and Ferdinand Porsche was designing what became the people's car, which was adapted to become a military transport vehicle. Porsche also designed what became the Panzer tank...

By the late 1930's there was immense presure on the drivers and staff of both teams to be members of the party.

Certainly the party's encouragement, funding and involvment in motorsport was just so much propaganda. The real question to ask is were all of the technological advances and international achievments tainted because of direct association with the Nazi Party ?

Best,

Ross

[D-Type]

To wander OT briefly, does anybody know which Panzer tank Dr Porsche designed? Tiger, Leopard, Panther, or what?

[Doug Nye]

A failed design contender bid for the Tiger contract and the failed Maus superpanzer upon which Hitler had initially insisted but which his panzer specialists knew from the beginning would prove impractical...

DCN