45 replies to this topic

[Ghostrider]

http://www.f1total.c...s/04082101.shtm

Dr Helmut Marko, Motorsportleiter Red Bull, confirms in Salzburger Nachrichten that Red Bull will end their sponsoring of Jagur after this year. Red Bull will probably still stay on with Sauber though.

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This will probably make Klien's chances of retaining his seat quite small. And also with the expected departure of HSBC and Becks, Jaguar's sponsor portfolio is getting thin. Tough times for Jaguar.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Perhaps

[NeilB]

He could end up with Sauber, but then again Peter isn't one for doing what Red Bull wants. Remember the Kimi/Bernoldi argument in 2001...

[angst]

Originally posted by NeilB
He could end up with Sauber, but then again Peter isn't one for doing what Red Bull wants. Remember the Kimi/Bernoldi argument in 2001...

Yeah. It's difficult to tell who was right there . Shouldn't this have been a lesson that maybe Red Bull aren' the best judges of driver talent and that they would better spend their money backing a team that runs two competitive drivers?

I don't see what they get out of hoisting their choice of driver onto the team. I just don't get it.

[Ross Stonefeld]

A driver they think is good. Maybe Klien wasnt ready yet for F1, but he wasnt a wanker either befor ehe was signed.

[wawawa]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Sauber will probably still stay on with Sauber though.

Phew!

[angst]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
A driver they think is good. Maybe Klien wasnt ready yet for F1, but he wasnt a wanker either befor ehe was signed.

I don't think he's a wanker either. I DO think he's been hoisted in far too quickly, and that's my point. Why are Red Bull so obsessed with choosing the driver, why not listen to the team?

Reb Bull may have done Klien's career more harm than good.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah he probably would have been better off with Wirdheim's job, but I dont think they 'harmed' his career. He wouldnt have even gotten to F3 without Red Bull

[PhilKerr]

**** happens

Other drivers have been far more impressive in their first season in dreadful cars, Klien is ok but like Sato needs a year as a test driver

Alonso became a superstar on the basis of driving a shitbox Minardi beyond how it was meant to go

Webber showed talent in the Minardi and rose through the ranks

The fact is that Klien just never made an impression, close the door on your way out Christian

[Wouter]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
http://www.f1total.c...s/04082101.shtm

Dr Helmut Marko, Motorsportleiter Red Bull, confirms in Salzburger Nachrichten that Red Bull will end their sponsoring of Jagur after this year. Sauber will probably still stay on with Sauber though.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This will probably make Klien's chances of retaining his seat quite small. And also with the expected departure of HSBC and Becks, Jaguar's sponsor portfolio is getting thin. Tough times for Jaguar.

Where is Jaguar going to get money next year?
A bit of bad luck and we may lose both Jaguar and Minardi next year, which would be a disaster for F1, going to 16 cars.

[LuckyStrike1]

Originally posted by angst


Yeah. It's difficult to tell who was right there . Shouldn't this have been a lesson that maybe Red Bull aren' the best judges of driver talent and that they would better spend their money backing a team that runs two competitive drivers?

I don't see what they get out of hoisting their choice of driver onto the team. I just don't get it.

They get money out of it besides marketing I'd guess. Signing a contract with a young driver and paying for his seasons in the lower categories and getting a percentage of his salary in return for a long time after that so they make a return of their investement.

Find a Michael Schumacher and it can be the best investement on earth - find a Klien and it gets a bit more tricky.

[4mula1]

Originally posted by Wouter


Where is Jaguar going to get money next year?
A bit of bad luck and we may lose both Jaguar and Minardi next year, which would be a disaster for F1, going to 16 cars.

If the grid drops below 20 the top teams (I don't know how many) will have to run a third car. This could be good for DC, as maybe he could still get a ride with McLaren! That could be an intersting lineup...Kimi, JPM, and DC.

[Wouter]

Originally posted by 4mula1


If the grid drops below 20 the top teams (I don't know how many) will have to run a third car. This could be good for DC, as maybe he could still get a ride with McLaren! That could be an intersting lineup...Kimi, JPM, and DC.

And very bad for F1. Third cars apparently can't score points no matter where they finish, and it will mean locked out Ferrari podiums. Other teams are going to drive to be 4th at best. Soon it will be a Ferrari cup.

[Captain Cranckcase]

Originally posted by Wouter

And very bad for F1. Third cars apparently can't score points no matter where they finish, and it will mean locked out Ferrari podiums. Other teams are going to drive to be 4th at best. Soon it will be a Ferrari cup.

If that's to happen they should only give third cars to the lesser teams IMO. Like the Friday tester thing.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by wawawa
Phew!

, sorry! Fixed.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by Wouter


Where is Jaguar going to get money next year?
A bit of bad luck and we may lose both Jaguar and Minardi next year, which would be a disaster for F1, going to 16 cars.

The article claims that Ford will be pumping in $80 mill starting next year. Expect the team to be renamed to Ford. We now have two seats at Jaguar/Ford available.

DC/Wirdheim? I hope they upgrade Wirdheim!

[StickShift]

Originally posted by 4mula1


If the grid drops below 20 the top teams (I don't know how many) will have to run a third car. This could be good for DC, as maybe he could still get a ride with McLaren! That could be an intersting lineup...Kimi, JPM, and DC.

Would it? I distinctly remember Wurz was made the 'third' race driver when he signed his contract extension.

[Zawed]

Red Bull leaving? Good. Maybe now they will leave driver choices to those who know the F1 business ie the team, and there will be two decent drivers in at Jag/Ford/whatever.

[dnbn]

Originally posted by Zawed
there will be two decent drivers in at Jag/Ford/whatever.

Or zero.

[Zawed]

Originally posted by dnbn

Or zero.

Is that zero because the team will go bust? Hardly think so, Ford won't want to have the millions they have thrown at the huge marketing exercise that is Jag to go down the drain.

Or is that zero as no decent drivers? de la Rosa is no slouch, have to admit I have no idea about Briscoe...and there is always Jos...

[dnbn]

Originally posted by Zawed

Is that zero because the team will go bust?

It may. I hope it won't, but with no major sponsors (HSBC, Red Bull) Ford may decide to stop the bleeding.

[RX-7]

I think a year of testing would be great for Klien. Maybe too much too soon.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Perhaps

Insightful.



Isn't Liuzzi a Red Bull driver? One seat open at Sauber next year. Do the math.

[wagner]

Originally posted by HSJ
Isn't Liuzzi a Red Bull driver? One seat open at Sauber next year. Do the math.

Do I get wrong result? I think about Bernoldi and Klien not getting open Sauber seats :

[Megatron]

Red Bull has looked silly ever since they tried to put Bernoldi in a Suaber instead of Kimi.

I for one am sick of the rumors that have been going around for years that Red Bull are going to buy an F1 team.

[Zawed]

Originally posted by Megatron
I for one am sick of the rumors that have been going around for years that Red Bull are going to buy an F1 team.

Ditto here

[flyer72]

Originally posted by Megatron
Red Bull has looked silly ever since they tried to put Bernoldi in a Suaber instead of Kimi.

I for one am sick of the rumors that have been going around for years that Red Bull are going to buy an F1 team.

Don't worry... they sold their 63% of Sauber to Credit Suisse, and they didn't succeed buying Arrows, and now Ford isn't selling Jaguar...

[The Vulcan]

Originally posted by flyer72


Don't worry... they sold their 63% of Sauber to Credit Suisse, and they didn't succeed buying Arrows, and now Ford isn't selling Jaguar...

..... well, there is still Jordan - a prospect with Dubai dollars, Red Bull drivers and Toyota engines

[skinnylizard]

perfect for Red Bull. another year they can give birth to speculation of them buying a team while at the same time for 6-8million a year remain in F1.

[Rediscoveryx]

I'd very much like to see Red Bull start their own team (rather than buying one of the existing teams). Then they can noodle around at the back of the grid turning down Räikkönen for Bernoldi and Wirdheim for Klien as much as they want

[Anders Torp]

Originally posted by Wouter

A bit of bad luck and we may lose both Jaguar and Minardi next year, which would be a disaster for F1, going to 16 cars.

I'm sorry but Minardi are so much off the pace that they don't belong in F1.

As for Jaguar (and Ford) they've got plenty of problems outside F1:

From Reuters
Ford is considering cutting production at its troubled Jaguar division to bring it more in line with flagging demand, a senior company official says.

"Certainly for the number of cars sold, we have too much capacity," (Ford President Nick)Scheele told Reuters, referring to Jaguar's three assembly plants.

Premier Automotive and Ford's Lincoln brand are supposed to account for a third of that profit. But Premier Automotive swung to a pretax loss of $362 million in the second quarter, compared with a profit of $166 million a year earlier.

Doing badly in F1 doesn't help you sell cars. So unless Jaguar can find some new sponsors who

A) have lots of money
and
B) don't mind spending it on an underperforming team,

the team is history. A disaster? For those who loose their job: yes. For F1: no.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Losing a team, especially a manufacturer team at this moment would screw F1

[LuckyStrike1]

If a big manufacturer like Ford pulls out of F1 because of the costs and problems to find sponsors, then F1 has a huge problem.

It could start a chain reaction as well - just like ITC other manufacturers could start thinking if this is really worth it, media will report about F1 crisis, possibly non-scoring third cars ... it could start a nasty chain reaction.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well how about the immediate problem that the grid goes under 20 cars and the other teams now have to run third entries that cant score points

[LuckyStrike1]

Yes, I touched on the third car problem there as well. Non-scoring third car could kill F1 .... it could be better to actually have only 18 cars on the grid than introducing third cars.

If Red Bull, HSBC and Becks leaves Jaguar as reported, Ford must increase their investement substantially or find a few big sponsors. What is the status there? Apparently they are considering to keep either the WRC or the F1 project ...

[Anders Torp]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Losing a team, especially a manufacturer team at this moment would screw F1

No, it would not. Other forms of motorsport do well with fewer manufacturers involved, as did F1 not so many years ago.

If fewer number of cars on the grid is a problem this could be solved by making it easier for new teams to join.

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by Anders Torp


No, it would not. Other forms of motorsport do well with fewer manufacturers involved, as did F1 not so many years ago.

If fewer number of cars on the grid is a problem this could be solved by making it easier for new teams to join.

Maybe, but as F1 is in a bit of a "turmoil" at the moment, losing a team on top of it all, wouldn't look good. Imagine the headlines, especially in the more tabloid press.

[MortenF1]

I remember Ron Dennis saying that they should start to worry, when there are only eight teams, and 16 cars on the grid.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Okay, you've got 6 months to fix it and put a new team on the grid



and............go!

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by Anders Torp


No, it would not. Other forms of motorsport do well with fewer manufacturers involved, as did F1 not so many years ago.

If fewer number of cars on the grid is a problem this could be solved by making it easier for new teams to join.

but thats a rather long term view. how about next season ? or the season after? i cant quite see a ground up team coming up from scratch even if there is money in such a short amount of time.

[angst]

I think this is the reason that Max and Bernie have been trying to reduce costs. Reducing costs should not be seen as reducing budgets - the top teams will always spend what they can. Reducing costs is about trying to control the effectiveness of spending, about allowing smaller teams with smaller budgets to have a chance to compete. At the moment the small budget teams cannot hope to compete with the big teams. The less succesful they are the less sponsorship they are likely to gain, and on and on until the budget is so small that the team cannot even BE in F1 anymore. We are already at this point, which is why we have the 'fighting fund'. The small teams are being propped up by the bigger teams to avoid exactly what Ross was talking about earlier.

How to reduce costs? That is the question. Nobody seems to have spoken to the teams about this. One engine per race? Has this really saved any money? Teams like Minardi have had to work to pretty much this concept anyway. A good starting point might be to ask what is it that the major teams spend most on that the smaller teams cannot match. According to Peter Sauber that would be testing, and particularly tyre testing. So how to reduce the amount of testing that a team can perform throughout the year? Another area would be wind-tunnel time. Hour upon hour, Millions upon millions spent perfecting the shape of the latest design of barge board or other aerodynamic accoutrement. So, how to decrease the amount of time in the wind-tunnell, or the effectiveness of it?

[flyer72]

Originally posted by The Vulcan

..... well, there is still Jordan - a prospect with Dubai dollars, Red Bull drivers and Toyota engines

Not bad! But exchange the Dubai dollars for some backing from some morning after pill producer...

[flyer72]

Originally posted by skinnylizard
perfect for Red Bull. another year they can give birth to speculation of them buying a team while at the same time for 6-8million a year remain in F1.

This year alone Red bull spent reportedly $6.5 mill to Jaguar for Klien AND they another $18 mill to sponsor Sauber.

[Anders Torp]

Originally posted by flyer72


This year alone Red bull spent reportedly $6.5 mill to Jaguar for Klien AND they another $18 mill to sponsor Sauber.

It's just amazing how much money they're making just from selling that syrupy stuff. It's kept Sauber alive, though.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by flyer72


This year alone Red bull spent reportedly $6.5 mill to Jaguar for Klien AND they another $18 mill to sponsor Sauber.

I hear its closer to 30

[ivanalesi]

hahaha yeah, but it's cult drink, thatz why it is so much popular:) and i think Liuzzi can contribute to this image more than Klein:)