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Ginger and Goldie


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#1 humphries

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 12:43

As a rather pernickety compiler of race results I do not like including nicknames.

Richard can be Richie, Dick or Dickie etc. Robert can be Robs, Bob or Bobby etc. William can be Willie, Bill or Billy etc. Short forms, diminutives or pet names are O.K. It will always be Michael Schumacher but Mike Hawthorn, James Hunt but Jim Clark and John Watson but Johnny Wakefield.

The dreaded pseudonyms like "Mike Sparken", "J.J.Lehto" of course have to be tolerated and also the acceptance of just initials like A.J.Foyt and T.A.S.O.Mathieson.

What I don't like are names such as "Ginger", "Goldie", "Curly", "Tiny" or "Wilkie". I realise these names are perfectly acceptable to less grumpy old men but I fear that with data being stored electronically many of these names will become standardised. In my records I shall eliminate them along with "Bunny", "Bummer" etc.

Anyway, can anybody supply the first names of "Ginger" Hamilton and "Goldie" Gardner? I feel I should know these but cannot remember.

John

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#2 f1steveuk

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 13:17

Goldie wasn't a nickname, it was his mother's maiden name, and a Scottich tradition was that you used your mothers maiden name, Goldie hated it appearing in " ", as does his widow who have known or years A T G Gardner, I'll get back to you with his full name, it's in the ook I wrote, and I can't remember if it was Albert or Arthur Thomas!!!

#3 f1steveuk

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 13:33

Arthur Thomas Goldie Gardner, honest!!

#4 humphries

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 14:04

Steve

Very interesting; we live and learn. One of my grandsons has his mother's maiden name included in his names. Did he answer to Goldie or Arthur - hopefully Goldie.

John

#5 f1steveuk

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 14:09

Always Goldie, then when he died his wife went from Una to Goldie, when I was writing my book, I used to visit and the place was full of trophies, signed pictures, BRDC gold stars, I never knew where to look!!! Is the Hamilton your asking about Duncan??

#6 f1steveuk

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 14:11

Forgot to mention when I was working in F1 ( for Bernie) I was charged with producing a full F1 result database, chassis numbers the lot, if I can be of help steve@holters.freeserve.co.uk

Steve

#7 humphries

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 14:52

Steve

No, not Duncan. A.P.Hamilton.

John

#8 D-Type

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 15:42

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Forgot to mention when I was working in F1 ( for Bernie) I was charged with producing a full F1 result database, chassis numbers the lot, if I can be of help steve@holters.freeserve.co.uk

Steve

Was that a genuine full set of results including non-championship races and minor almost national races like those at Davidstow?

Or was it just championship races?

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 16:44

I would make a distinction between universally used nicknames (Ginger Hamilton, Curly Dryden, Lofty England etc) and those invented by the media and/or used only by family or friends. In the first group the people were probably never known as anything else, whereas in the second there was an acceptable alternative. I guess if I was applying this rule I'd place Keijo Rosberg in the second category - that's the name he used when he started racing.
But what do you do with Andreas-Niklaus Lauda?
(And there have to be other examples I can't bring to mind)
Maybe there's something to be said for the old practice of using initials only :lol:

#10 humphries

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 19:01

David

This is nit-picking I know but I have no problem with Niki Lauda or Keke Rosberg. For years these names appeared in official programme entry lists.

As fas as I know that very popular driver "Curly" Dryden appeared in programmes as R.M.Dryden. To personalise that in the modern manner I would change R.M. to Ronald Dryden in an entry list but would refer to him in any accompanying text as "Curly " Dryden. Ron or Ronnie may be acceptable alternatives of his real name and his family and friends would know if this was the case. "Curly" suggests gentle "urine extraction" although Ron or Ronald was in no way offended.

Lots of drivers may have had nicknames to which they responded but journalists being ignorant of the fact did not use them. On the other hand journalists and historians have latched on to a so-called nickname when the driver concerned would have been bemused by its use.

John

#11 David McKinney

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 19:43

We differ :)
I would call him R M Dryden "officially", unless I had heard anyone in motor racing circles referring to him as Ronald or Ron.
Informally, I would call him Curly (OK, probably "Curly")

#12 f1steveuk

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 07:38

Well just to add insult to injury i think I got it wrong, I went from memeory and shouldn't have, I actually think it was Alfred Thomas Goldie Gardner, I'm waiting for Mrs Gardner to call me back. OOOPPPsssssss!!!!

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 08:32

He's Alfred in my records
To answer John's earlier question, I'm sure he answered to Goldie

#14 f1steveuk

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 08:57

Goldie's daughter Ros' has just called me, and my brain fade then resurrection has been proved, I was right second time Alfred, but was always refered to as Goldie. I now know if I doubt my brain, consult a book!!

#15 VAR1016

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 09:35

Originally posted by David McKinney
We differ :)
I would call him R M Dryden "officially", unless I had heard anyone in motor racing circles referring to him as Ronald or Ron.
Informally, I would call him Curly (OK, probably "Curly")


Richard John Beattie-Seaman?;)

PdeRL

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 10:31

Or even Richard John Beattie Seaman

#17 humphries

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 15:49

In the opening lines of the obituary written by Gregor Grant in Autosport "Curly" Dryden is referred to as Ronald ( Curly ) Dryden.

Looking at just the programme entry lists for that sad 6 October Castle Combe meeting ( I don't have the complete programme so the programme may have contained more detail, previews etc ) the problems of providing the first name for the Black Books format can be appreciated. Most of the drivers are listed with initials only. Thankfully ignoring the sports car races and only concentrating on the races for F3, Racing cars ( over 500cc not exceeding 1500cc ), Racing cars ( over 1500cc and not exceeding 2500cc ) and F.Libre, a few obsevations.

Top drivers such as Bob Gerard and Graham Whitehead were listed as F.R.Gerard and A.G.Whitehead. Of course these famous drivers appeared in other programmes and race reports with their "first" names. If they had been virtual unknowns they may have been logged as Alfred Whitehead and Fred Gerard or even Robert Gerard. So when you see a driver entered in a Delage 158S, no less, ( dna ) with the name B.R.Beebee one is inclined to concede defeat. Unless someone knows better.

Using just initials might be easier but would it? P.de F.C.Pycroft or Paul Pycroft, N.B.Johnson or N. Berrow-Johnson and shouldn't K.Carter and J.Cooper, Cooper F3 drivers, be K.E.Carter and J.N.Cooper.

At Castle Combe it was R.M.Dryden. Only eight drivers were graced with a first name - Bill Whitehouse, Andre Loens, Tim Secombe, Ray Merrick, Ken Wharton, Stirling Moss, Duncan Hamilton and George Abecassis. Why not Bob Gerard or Graham Whitehead's half-brother Peter Whitehead? They were both top drivers in 1951. And why Tim Secombe? Hardly a motor-racing household name.
The selection may have been simply down to the whim of the programme compiler or more likely it was down to how the entry form was filled in. Possibly some drivers were more publicity conscious than others.

The meeting had a few late entries and there was the odd spelling mistake. J.O.Coundlay is John Coundley, I believe, more famous at the wheel of a Lister-Jaguar and Lotus 19 and even a Birdcage.

Just this one programme requires plenty of head-scratching and delving with no guarantee you've got it right. Some other programmes are a far less reliable.

Having a set format can be a real bind and the thought of a database...

No word on Ginger yet?

John

#18 RAP

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 18:26

I am with David McKinney on this - we should try to use the names as the individual would generally have been know at the time. If you start to use "Arthur" Gardner no-one would recognise who was meant. The issue becomes more complex where practices seem to have changed. For example IIRC A F P Fane's name was A F P Agabeg (I think the F was Fane) and in his early days I have seen Agabeg used.

I am curious about pre-war MG driver J H T Smith. This seems to have been universally used with no sign of a first name in magazines etc so I am wondering if this was a case of a semi-pseudonym as Smith is such a common British name? At the final Crystal Palace meeting there was a John Thompson Smith amongst the personalities - I guess this was probably J H T Smith. Should we now use J H T Smith or John Thompson Smith ?

RAP

#19 David McKinney

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 19:50

Alfred Fane Piers Agabeg (1911-1942) apparently used his second forename. When he changed his surname he became Fane Fane, though I don't think I've ever seen a contemporary listing as anything but A F P Fane.
The other chap was John Henry Thomson Smith (1914-1984). His son was around a few years ago and I don't think he was called anything but Smith - no Thomson (though that may have been one of his Christian names).

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#20 LB

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 20:56

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Goldie wasn't a nickname, it was his mother's maiden name, and a Scottich tradition was that you used your mothers maiden name, Goldie hated it appearing in " ", as does his widow who have known or years A T G Gardner, I'll get back to you with his full name, it's in the ook I wrote, and I can't remember if it was Albert or Arthur Thomas!!!


Funnily I'm Craig Leadbitter, Craig being my mums maiden name. I never knew that it was traditional mind you.

#21 Jim Thurman

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 22:05

John,

This is tough, particularly when it comes to some drivers...

I wonder if anyone other than his mother ever referred to Mr. Lund as DeWayne?

I never saw Clifton in the results for Mr. Marlin.

Clark Templeman Jr. was the son, but it was always "Shorty" for his father...

and H.A. "Stubby" Stubblefield.

Waymon Stricklin...huh?;)

And I don't need to tell you, it goes on from there.

#22 humphries

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 22:10

Richard & David

No real problem with Gardner as one of his forenames was Goldie.

With regard to Fane he was always referred to by his motor-racing friends as Tony but by my reckoning that should be "Tony"!

I still prefer Ron or Ronald Dryden rather than "Curly" in an entry list.

John

#23 humphries

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 22:22

Jim

I've just seen your post.

Believe me, I have no intention of trying to come to grips with the names of American drivers. Coo-Coo!!!

The "Tiny" I was referring to was "Tiny" Littler, a British driver!

John