35 replies to this topic

[VDP]

I ll try to find a definitive book about the 24 hours covering also the early stages, anybody an idea ?
I ve already Delsaux Books

Robert

[Patrick Italiano]

I have a quite old book, in French, covering the history of the 24 hours from, as far as I remember, 1922 to 1973, date of issue of the book. Complete title, author, etc. to be checked at home.

I would certainly not rate it as definitive, but it's interseting anyway.

The trouble is to find one. It happens to me sometimes on fleamarkets or swapmeets, usually for5 - 10 euros, but it's a question of luck.

Next time I run into one, I'll buy it if unexpensive, and if you're interested, let me know.

OTOH, a friend of mine has made a logbook with all 24h entries from 1964 to 2000 or 2001. Should be available yet, I have to remember his phone number...

[VDP]

Thanks Patrick
You see the Delsaux books are very crude a few pic interesting by the way, but only top ten or fihteen finishers an text space si NL / F very confusing, it s fill a gap but a small one, by the way if you find one UNEXPENSIVE of course.

Robert

[j-ickx-fan]

Hi,

Did you try http://www.editions-palmier.fr ? They used to have a lot of second hand books. They seems to be off line at the moment but I think it worths to keep an eye on this website. I already got some books from them.

[j-ickx-fan]

Just check on the url which I told you above and if you follow this one you'll get all the books about the 24 hours of Spa-Francorchamps.

[Frank de Jong]

The Delsaux books are informative but has errors in the results. My site will not be faultless but is a little better (but only has results from 1964 on).
I've ordered books from editions palmier in the past - value for money, very kind people, fast delivery.

[VDP]

Thanks for the link the last one seems very interesting, just hope that there is also results production race ? Before 1964 of course

Robert

[Frank de Jong]

I don't understand what you mean exactly, but the last 24h race before 1964 was 1953, a sports car race which is covered elsewhere on the net (www.wspr-racing.com).

[j-ickx-fan]

I guess he was peaking about the last book on the page that I gave the url to...

[VDP]

Yes indeed the last book in the url

There was at Francorchamps a production race in the fifties, where most of the importers did part
subdivised in category


Robert

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by VDP
Yes indeed the last book in the url

Robert

That's the one I was referring to. I have a copy, as I wrote above.

If you just look for a precise information, I can check in my copy.

[VDP]

There were in spa production or stock races hold in the fifties running in classes with big banger such Chrysler, Ford etc or for the small classes Dyna Panhard. Mostly of the importers belgian of course were involved.

Robert

[Frank de Jong]

I guess those were not 24 hour races - that's were the thread started about. The first 24h production race was in 1964, in 1953 there were production cars in the sports car race.

[VDP]

No this was only a remark, productions cars were already running in 1924 at the first race.
You can compare the prod race like Coupe de Spa at the end of the sixties.

Robert

By the way very nice site.

[Patrick Italiano]

Hi Robert,

I checked the Royer book of which above, and eventually found nothing on the production races you ask about.

24 h races were held in 1948, 49 and 1953 including touring cars as well as sports cars. Indeed, the FIAT team entering 1100/103 Fiats in 1953 eventually won the King's cup.

I guess thus that the races you refer to were shorter, while, as far as I remember, they were something more than sprints.

Actually, I expected to find in that book a nice picture of an American car importer team (I would say either Plymouth or Studebaker, but that's not my usual field ) at the Eau Rouge. Paul frère was driver of one of the three cars. I remember very well that pic, but I'm unable to find out where I've seen it.

Sorry.

[David McKinney]

Chryslers, I think
In From (or was it On?) teh Starting Grid, by the aforementioned P Frere

[Pils1989]

Grand Prix des Voitures de Serie 1952.
The Olsmobile team consisted of Pilette, Frere, Swaters and Claes.
All retired from the race except Frere who won.
The team was formed on the initiative of Andre Pisard, american cars dealer/importer.

Grand Prix des Voitures de Serie 1953.
Pilette wins the first heat on Plymouth and Frere the second heat on Chrysler.

Sorry, that's all I've found in the Pilette book and I don't know if it's correct or not.
Altought there is a 1952 picture of three Osmobile climbing Eau Rouge and another 1952 picture of Frere, Claes and Pilette standing infront of an Osmobile.

[Frank de Jong]

The Delsaux book on 100 years of Belgian motorsport should have the winners of these races. I'll check tonight.
As mentioned earlier, looks a little like an early version of the coupes de spa.

[Nanni Dietrich]

If I remember well, Sir Jack drove at Spa-Francorchamps 24 Hours in 1980 and 1981, a Ford Capri entered by "Eminence Racing". His co-drivers were belgian (?) Remy Marquet and the good old Gunther Steckkonig, famous german Porsche endurance driver.

Sir Jack Brabham was 54 at the time, he had announced his retirement from about ten years, his son Geoff in 1981 won the Can-Am Challenge...


Someone can tell me some other news about this last performance of Black-Jack?
Thanks

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by Pils1989

Sorry, that's all I've found in the Pilette book and I don't know if it's correct or not.
Altought there is a 1952 picture of three Osmobile climbing Eau Rouge and another 1952 picture of Frere, Claes and Pilette standing infront of an Osmobile.

Thanks Toine!

Since I was stuck to Paul Frère as driver, I didn't think to check the Pilette book, and indeed the pics I had in mind are those!

As I tend to look at American cars as all looking alike (you know, the same as the difficulty an European can have when differenciating, say, two Chinese ), I'm quite proud that my memory got one make right.

Now, what was the length of such races?

[VDP]

Was André Pisard a racing driver or test driver for a belgian manufacturer before WWII ?
There were not only big bangers ?
He was not the importer, he was the man behind importer Beherman
The same company lent one car for Paul Frère at the MM

Robert

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Pils1989
Grand Prix des Voitures de Serie 1952.
The Olsmobile team consisted of Pilette, Frere, Swaters and Claes.
All retired from the race except Frere who won.
The team was formed on the initiative of Andre Pisard, american cars dealer/importer.

Grand Prix des Voitures de Serie 1953.
Pilette wins the first heat on Plymouth and Frere the second heat on Chrysler.

Sorry, that's all I've found in the Pilette book and I don't know if it's correct or not.
Altought there is a 1952 picture of three Osmobile climbing Eau Rouge and another 1952 picture of Frere, Claes and Pilette standing infront of an Osmobile.

There's info in the delsaux book. The first race (Grand Prix de voitures de serie) was held in 1950, the last one in 1956, it seems to be replaced by the Grand Prix de Spa. Most races were in may (like the coupes in later years).
I'll come back with more info but I've got something else to do right now.

[Frank de Jong]

1er GP des Voitures de serie, Francorchamps, 20/8/1950
1ere course:
cat 750: 1 Paul Frere, Panhard, 103,050 kmh
cat 1100: 1 Waseige, Simca, 94,082 kmh
cat 1500: 1 George, Peugeot, 118,128 kmh
cat 2000: 1 Mordant, Tatra, 111,083 kmh
2eme course:
Voitures de +3L et de + 175.000 francs
1 Van Wetter, Oldsmobile, 125,758 kmh
Voitures de +3L et de - 175.000 francs
Bastin, Ford, 112,050 kmh
cat 3000:
1 Van Laere, Citroen, 116,154 kmh
This race was organised to bring attention to the finish of the Marathon de la Route and should be considered as the ancestor of the later 1000 km race.
According to JP Delsaux

2eme GP des Voitures de serie, Francorchamps, 20/5/1951
1ere course:
Serie F: 1 Paul Frere, Panhard Dyna, 99,880 kmh
2eme course
Serie E: T. Georges, Peugeot, 112,656 kmh
3eme course
Serie D: J. Deschamps, Citroen, 122,881 kmh
4eme course
Serie C: Warnotte, Ford, 122,519 kmh
5eme course
Serie B: J. van Wetter, Oldsmobile, 124,928 kmh
6eme course
Serie A: J. Claes, Jaguzr XK120, 131,416 kmh

[VDP]

Thanks Frank
It would be funny to see a citroên 15 att full speed at masta

Robert

[Frank de Jong]

Quite high speeds for the early 50's - those men were brave...
I'll add the other years tonight.

[Frank de Jong]

3eme GP des Voitures de serie, Francorchamps, 18/5/1952
1ere course:
+175000 BFrs: P. Frere, Oldsmobile, 129,148 kmh
+110000 BFrs: R. Warnotte, Ford, 126,353 kmh
+90.000 BFrs: Jourdain, Ford Zephyr, 118,273 kmh
-70.000 BFrs: Welter, Panhard Dyna, 102,727 kmh
The same weekend saw the first Coupes de Spa, which included sportscars

4eme GP des Voitures de serie, Francorchamps, 16-17/5/1953
Serie A: P. Frere, Chrysler
Serie B: A. Pilette, Plymouth

5eme GP des Voitures de serie, Francorchamps, 23/5/1954
Cat 5L: P. Frere, Chrysler, 144,101 kmh
Cat 4L: A. Pilette, Ford, 135,702 kmh
the other races seem to have been for sportscars

6eme GP des Voitures de serie, Francorchamps, 7-8/5/1955
1ere course
Cat 1600: Burdes, Borgward, 129,697 kmh
Cat +1600: Frere, Alfa Romeo, 143,148 kmh
2eme course
ex-aequo Milhoux and Claes, Ford, 148,093 kmh

7eme GP des Voitures de serie, Francorchamps, 13/5/1956
1ere course
Van Hauw, Panhard Dyna, 123,061 kmh
2eme course
T +1600: Frere, Jaguar, 154,626

[VDP]

André Pisart was one of the most talented belgian racing driver between WW with Chenard & Walcker at Le Mans

Robert

Thanks for the info Frank

[Ray Bell]

David is right, there is at least one picture in the Frere book... I remember it well, though I haven't seen it for maybe 35 years.

[RAP]

Frank mentions a sports car race in 1952. Does anyone have information on this ?

For 1955 Autosport gave the following results -

American cars
1 John Claes (Ford V8) & Milhoux (Ford V8) 12laps 1'08'40.9
3 Meunier (Ford V8) 1'10'20.1

2600
1 Paul Frere (Alfa Romeo ) 12 laps 1'11'02.2

1600
1 Brudes (Borgward) 11 laps 1'11'51.3
2 George (Peugeot) 1'12'05.0
3 Berger (simca)

[Frank de Jong]

1st coupes de Spa, 18/5/1952, sports and touring cars:
cat A: Max Thirion, Jaguar XK120, 137,987 kmh
cat B: Freddy Rousselle, Jaguar Mk VIII, 126,397 kmh
cat C: Martin, Citroen, 125,827 kmh
cat D: Lonniaux, Opel, 120,970 kmh
cat E: Demazy, Citroen, 114,104 kmh
cat F: Heuze, Morris Minor, 94,990kmh

[RAP]

Thanks Frank
RAP

[GIGLEUX]

GRAND PRIX DES VOITURES DE SERIE 8/5/1955

*Voitures de série spéciales
-1000 up to 1600cc
1.Brudes Borgward 11 laps 155,760 km 1.11.51.3 129,197 km/h
2.George Peugeot 1.12.05
3.Berger Simca 1.13.09
4.Miranesé Fiat 1100 1.13.14
5.Quernette Peugeot
6.Henriquet Peugeot
7.Hacquin Simca
FL Brudes 6.17 131,247 km/h

-1600 up to 2000cc
1.Frère Alfa-Romeo 12 laps 169,400 km 1.11.02.2 143,148 km/h
FL Frère 5.41 148,718 km/h

*Voitures de sériee spéciales américaines
1.ex-aequo Claes and Milhoux Ford V8 12 laps 169,400 km 1.08.40.9 149,093 km/h
3.Meunier Ford V8 1.10.20.1
4.Julien Ford V8 1.10.52
5.Swaters 1.11.11
FL Milhoux 5.37.7 150,568 km/h

*Voitures de sport de série
-1300 up to 1600cc
1.Storez Porsche 19 laps 209 km 1.41.44 158,225 km/h
2.Olivier Porsche 1 lap behind
3.Bensa Porsche 1 lap behind
4.Montblanc Porsche 4 laps behind

-1600 up to 2000cc
1.Musy Maserati 20 tours 209 km 1.42.02.7 166,042 km/h
2.Herzet Ferrari 2 laps behind
3.Pua Veritas 2 laps behind
4.Willemin Ferrari 4 laps behind

-+2000cc
1.Frère Aston-Martin DB3S 20 laps 209 km 1.37.33.9 173,667 km/h
2.Swaters Ferrari 750 Monza 1.38.08
3.Laurent Ferrari 750 Monza 1.38.54
4.Davids Jaguar at 1 lap
5.Scheid Jaguar 3 laps behind

[humphries]

Just a couple of little tweaks to Jean-Maurice's results for the 1955 Spa production races.

Pua I think is Dua; a Dutch driver?

Bensa, should be the experienced Marcel Balsa. Unfortunately a week later Balsa crashed this 550RS at Montlhery in the Bol d'Or. The car was burnt out and Balsa broke both his legs.

John

[RAP]

Thanks Jean-Maurice. My previous post should, of course, have been 1955 not 1956.
RAP

[Nanni Dietrich]

Please, I need the complete classification of 24 Hours Spa-Francorchamps 1995.
Can someone help me?
Thanks.



And then two questions about brazilian drivers at Spa:

1 - In 1994 a Bmw 318is was classified 4th over all, driven by Johnny Cecotto-Nelson Piquet-Hoffmann: was perhaps brazilian Ingo Hoffmann the third driver?

2 - In 1994 a Bmw M3 (???) was classified 5th over all, driven by Franz Konrad- Bert Ploeg- Hermann: was perhaps brazilian Antonio Hermann the third driver?

[humphries]

In Touring Car World 1994/1995 the 1994 BMW drivers at the Spa 24 Hours were Ingo Hoffmann and Antonio Hermann de Azevedo.
In Touring Car World 1995/1996 the 1995 Spa 24 Hours entries , grid and results are given in full.

John