23 replies to this topic

[lemanfan]

How fast did F1 cars throu the Eau Rouge in early ninetees /90, 91, 92, 93/ compare to this year,
when cars where doing almost 200 mph at the exit of these corner. The car in early ninetees also had a lot of aero grip so they sould be fast to.
Does the curve changen in the radius compare to this year ?

[subh]

They should have been quick through there at the end of the turbo era, except that I believe downforce levels have only been good enough to go flat through it in this decade.

[j-ickx-fan]

Originally posted by lemanfan
Does the curve changen in the radius compare to this year ?

The curve radius have changed many times. One year they even made a chicane at the bottom but it was removed very quickly.
But the configuration hasn't change for some years now though.

[KWSN - DSM]

They have changed the angels of Eau Rouge, and there is no longer a gravel pit to the left. Meaning that when in trouble you can drive through the tarmac part. I am sure that this also make for higher speeds, as the drivers know that a miss is not a race or lapending miss.

I was there this weekend, and the most intense sight was the first flying lap by Michael Schumacher in the 15 minute soaking rain practise session. He came out as the first driver took a warmup lap, and then blasted through. Engine shrieking, rooster tail 100 meters after him going fast fast fast, not lifting, not braking.

Absolutely awesome.

I was there with my brothers, my older brother had never been to a F1 race before and he was mesmerized. My younger brother is a McLaren and Kimi Raikkonen fan, yet he stated: "This is just so incredible. You can see that he is faster than every one else there".

[Spunout]

I believe Keke Rosberg was the first one to go trough Eau Rouge flat.

[bigears]

Some people said it was Nigel Mansell in 1992.

[AAA-Eagle]

Renault's chief engineer Pat Symonds takes a detailed look at exactly what makes Eau Rouge the most dramatic corner in Formula 1.
23.08.2004

"2004 will see Formula 1 make a welcome return to Spa-Francorchamps after a brief sabbatical. Spa is the classic road circuit, and presents challenges enjoyed by drivers, engineers and spectators alike. Getting close to perfection through the difficult, high-speed corners makes significant differences to the lap time, and gives a great feeling of satisfaction when we get it right.

Of these corners, the most famous is of course Eau Rouge and over the years, this complex has perhaps created the biggest challenge in Grand Prix racing. When we consider the nature of this challenge, and how it has evolved over the years, it is interesting to see that just as it seems to be getting easier, a change to the cars can put the ball right back in the teams’ court. Indeed, this is what we expect to happen for 2005.

Speeds through the corner increased up until 1998 (peaking at 286 kph in 1997), when the introduction of grooved tyres and narrow track cars brought a significant decrease in grip, and hence cornering speeds. From 1998 onwards, we see a steady increase in speeds once more, with a significant jump in 2001 as the tyre competition begun the previous year got into full swing. An equally significant step was made in 2002, when not only did the tyres develop further, but the corners where slightly realigned and also resurfaced, in the interests of safety. This led to the corner being easily flat in qualifying that year, although in the race it still required a small lift of the throttle through the corner. Having said that, even when taken flat, the high lateral accelerations and hence tyre scrub, coupled with the steep rise in elevation, result in the car losing around 20 kph from entry to exit of the corners.

From an engineering point of view, the corner is an important one as good speed through here provides an overtaking opportunity at the end of the straight. In order to negotiate the complex quickly, it is important to have the right level of grip, and hence an aerodynamic set-up that does not compromise the high straightline speeds required (around 320 kph). In addition, the drivers need complete confidence in the car through this series of corners, and in order to achieve this it is necessary to have good high speed stability, and maybe even a touch of understeer.

Finding this handling “sweet-spot” is not just a case of achieving the correct aero balance, as the dramatic elevation changes in the corner have severe effects on the suspension. The left hand part of the corner generates a lot of suspension compression, and the car goes light in the final part. It is necessary to ensure the car does not hit the ground hard in the compression, but also that during this phase, any non-linear behaviour in the suspension, such as the bump rubbers, do not produce a sudden change in handling as the car tries to bottom out. Equally, ride heights can vary by as much as 25 mm through the sequence. When choosing set-ups, just a couple of millimetres can make a significant difference to handling, and it is therefore obvious that the car needs aerodynamic characteristics that do not cause large movements in the centre of pressure even when ride heights and pitch angles vary. If these factors are managed correctly, if the driver has the grip he expects, and if the grip and the balance of that grip remain constant through the corner, then the challenge becomes a much easier one.

This year, we expect to negotiate Eau Rouge at approximately 310 kph, compared to 286 kph in 1997. Furthermore, with the progress in both car and tyre design over the past two seasons, the corner should be taken flat out for much of, and perhaps all, the race. Next year, though, the situation will change once more, as it has done through recent F1 history. Just considering the losses from the aerodynamic changes that we will be accepting for 2005, we can expect the minimum speed through Eau Rouge to drop by over 20 kph (to 1997 levels), and indeed the top speed at the end of the straight will be 9 kph lower. The drivers will also be lifting off the throttle for around 0.4 seconds, a level similar to that which we saw in 2000. The challenge of taking Eau Rouge flat, superseded by advances in car and tyre design since 2002, will return, and Spa will be all the more a true classic circuit for it."

Source: RenaultF1.com

[St.Hubbins]

As a slightly off-topic aside to the above artice:

If the corners are once agin not flat (in 2005), does this not actually decrease the safety rather than the intended opposite effect?

[LittleChris]

Wonder what speed they'd have been doing through Burnenville these days

[Vincenzo Lancia]

Eau Rouge - an iconic corner, or bend or what the right term is.

It is however far from what it was. I have seen several pics - of which I dare not post any - that clearly shows the difference.

60'es photographs shows a corner of which a substantial part is going left - then right etc. They also show that the track at this point was no wider than it was anywhere else.

Today that initial leftturning is almost or maybe entirely gone. And the track is much wider.

I know others can go deeper into this... but I haven't written anything here for ages....

Svend

[fines]

Yes, Eau Rouge was reprofiled in 1983 (I think) to pamper the Grand Prix stars on their return to the circuit.

[Rob Semmeling]

Originally posted by Vincenzo Lancia
Eau Rouge - an iconic corner, or bend or what the right term is.

It is however far from what it was. I have seen several pics - of which I dare not post any - that clearly shows the difference.

60'es photographs shows a corner of which a substantial part is going left - then right etc. They also show that the track at this point was no wider than it was anywhere else.

Today that initial leftturning is almost or maybe entirely gone. And the track is much wider.

I know others can go deeper into this... but I haven't written anything here for ages....

Svend

You're absolutely right. Some pictures to illustrate:

http://home.arcor.de..._2/spa_1966.jpg
http://home.arcor.de..._2/spa_1967.jpg
http://home.arcor.de..._2/spa_1968.jpg
http://home.arcor.de.../spa_1968_2.jpg
http://home.arcor.de..._2/spa_1969.jpg
http://home.arcor.de..._2/spa_1982.jpg
http://home.arcor.de.../spa_1990_1.jpg
http://home.arcor.de.../spa_1990_2.jpg
http://home.arcor.de..._2/spa_1998.jpg

[DREW]

Thanx for taking the time to put that together, Rob.

The '69 picture...Mmmmmmmm

DREW

[bigears]

Thank you for putting the wonderful images together.

Interestly to see that the modern GP take the racing line more closer to the left hand side of the old s/f straight. It must be because there is a pitlane on the right so therefore the straight is more "narrower" so the modern GP cars can be able to do that quick left then right flick.

With the older version of Eau Rouge, there is no pitwall so therefore the older cars can take a wider racing line on the right then a brief left hand turn then approach into Radillion.

[AAA-Eagle]

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling

http://home.arcor.de..._2/spa_1969.jpg

Nice pic, Rob!

It is interesting to notice that in that years (1969-70) these Porsches were faster than F1 cars. In 1970 Pedro Rodriguez done 14,100 km lap in 3:16,500 (258,321 km/h) while Chris Amon only manged 3:27.400 (244.744 km/h) in his March-Ford.

Don't know if there were any other cases when in the same weather conditions and in the same circuit configuration F1 cars were slower than other cars...

[Ross Stonefeld]

vhttp://www.schlegelmilch.com/winter13/default.htm

[bigears]

Interesting link there!

Seems like that it all down to the approach to Eau Rouge because of the modern pitlane there.

Anyway I recall that there was a superb photo of a group of drivers doing their drivers' meeting with Eau Rouge in the background in the 1960s. I looked everywhere for that photograph. I saw it once in an Autosport magazine maybe in 2001 or 2002?

Can anyone find that photograph? I didn't have a subscription of the magazine at the time.

[philippe7]

Originally posted by AAA-Eagle

It is interesting to notice that in that years (1969-70) these Porsches were faster than F1 cars. In 1970 Pedro Rodriguez done 14,100 km lap in 3:16,500 (258,321 km/h) while Chris Amon only manged 3:27.400 (244.744 km/h) in his March-Ford.

Don't know if there were any other cases when in the same weather conditions and in the same circuit configuration F1 cars were slower than other cars...

The fastest lap on the "real" Spa still belongs - forever - to Henri Pescarolo in 1973 , with a 3.13.34 in his Matra 670 ( 3 liter engine , like Amon's Cosworth ) ....but OK , it was 3 years later , and at Spa the splendid roadholding of the Matra certainly helped more than the sheer power of Rodriguez's 5 litre Porsche.

I admit it is difficult to compare times set on different years , with maybe slightly different conditions, but to compare strictly among the 3-liter engines which were fairly similar in the F1 and sportscars those days , the pole at Monza for the 1971 GP ( last time without chicanes ) was for Chris Amon in the Matra MS120 at 1.22.40.

The Sportscars continued using the "real" Monza ( sans chicanes) for 2 more years , in 1972 pole went to Peterson-Schenken ( Ferrari 312 PB ) at 1.24.75 , and in 1973 to Cevert-Beltoise ( Matra M670 ) at 1.21.13 . So, faster than Amon's F1 , with the same engine, but....two years later .

[SEdward]

Remember that Jacky Ickx's fastest lap in practice for that same race in the Ferrari 312P was 3 min 12.7. But practice times don't count, do they?

Edward.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by bigears

Anyway I recall that there was a superb photo of a group of drivers doing their drivers' meeting with Eau Rouge in the background in the 1960s. I looked everywhere for that photograph. I saw it once in an Autosport magazine maybe in 2001 or 2002?

Can anyone find that photograph? I didn't have a subscription of the magazine at the time.

I'm not certain, but I think you might find it appeared as a 'Parting Shot' DPS in Motor Sport.

Twinny

[SEdward]

Anyway I recall that there was a superb photo of a group of drivers doing their drivers' meeting with Eau Rouge in the background in the 1960s. I looked everywhere for that photograph. I saw it once in an Autosport magazine maybe in 2001 or 2002?

And another great one taken at the start from the back of the grid with Eau Rouge rising in the background. Dates from between 62 and 67, I think. I remember seeing a huge copy of this photo pasted on an entire wall of a café or pub somewhere.

Trouble is, I can't remember where.

Must lay off the Pastis...

Edward

[philippe7]

Originally posted by SEdward
Remember that Jacky Ickx's fastest lap in practice for that same race in the Ferrari 312P was 3 min 12.7. But practice times don't count, do they?

Edward.

Touché


PS 1 : of course they do

PS 2 : must have been my nationalistic feelings taking over.....although Ickx is...well...almost french...( let's hear the Belges yelling now ! )

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by AAA-Eagle
It is interesting to notice that in that years (1969-70) these Porsches were faster than F1 cars. In 1970 Pedro Rodriguez done 14,100 km lap in 3:16,500 (258,321 km/h) while Chris Amon only manged 3:27.400 (244.744 km/h) in his March-Ford.

Don't know if there were any other cases when in the same weather conditions and in the same circuit configuration F1 cars were slower than other cars...

As mentioned in this thread http://forums.atlasf...riguez Spa 1970 the track was changed for the 1970 GP.
Citing Dennis Jenkinson's Motor Sport report from that thread: "As a sop to certain Grand Prix drivers the course had been modified slightly since the recent 1,000-kilometre sports-car race, and instead of taking the very fast Malmédy right-hand sweep at around 150m.p.h. it was now necessary to brake really hard, going left of the grass island and then turning sharp right and joining the Masta straight on a left-hand sweep. This so-called chicane increased lap times to the order of seven to ten seconds, so a new set of standards for Grand Prix cars at Francorchamps was to be set."

[Rob Semmeling]

The Masta-S was also slightly tightened, though cars were still measured at 301 km/h in that bend during the race.