50 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

At Oulton Park this last weekend, there was a JBW Climax on the entry list.

This turned out to be a different car to the one I expected to see, and indeed, a car with which I was utterly unfamiliar. (As were a couple of other TNEffers with far greater knowledge than mine.)

Here is the car....


I don't remember ever seeing this JBW - only the ones with the much more eccentric body styles.

Can anyone throw light onto the history of this one, please. (Just curious!)

[Peter Morley]

Is it not this car - as recorded at http://8w.forix.com/jbw.html

Another JBW F1 car appeared in 1961 and again it was a Cooper copy, this time with a Maserati 150S engine driving through a five-speed Colotti gearbox. On its debut on the Silver City Trophy at Brands Hatch it was over ten seconds off the pace and retired with overheating. In the Italian Grand Prix it ran with a Coventry Climax FPF engine but retired after six laps with a blown engine. It came ninth in the Oulton Park Gold Cup and finally ran in the Lewis-Evans Trophy at Brands Hatch where it retired on the first lap. After this last sorry retirement, Naylor vanishes from the records, probably having retired and returning to his car dealer business.

[ensign14]

Naylor raced at Daytona, in 1961; he had a heart problem that curtailed his racing. For details on him see here.

[Barry Boor]

Is it not this car

No, Peter, that's the point! The car in the Forix item is the one I always think of when anyone mentions JBW, but the one at Oulton was much more Cooperish.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Barry Boor


No, Peter, that's the point! The car in the Forix item is the one I always think of when anyone mentions JBW, but the one at Oulton was much more Cooperish.

Barry, Peter is quoting from the last para of the Forix article starts "Another JBW F1 car appeared in 1961 and again it was a Cooper copy, this time with a Maserati 150S engine driving through a five-speed Colotti gearbox. "

As the car pictured by FORIX is the 1960 one - is the one you saw the 1961 one as refererred to in the last para?

[Barry Boor]

The owner said that his car is a 1960 one. It was, apparently, fitted with a 2.5 litre Maserati engine but the 'powers-that-be' in historic racing insist that if it is running with a Climax, it has to be 1.5.

The reasons for not using the Maserati motor is that if it goes wrong, it's very difficult and expensive to mend!

I am sorry if my reply to Peter came across as abrupt - that was certainly not my intention!

I wonder if we could determine which car it was that ran in the Silver City Trophy and the other races mentioned on Forix.

[David McKinney]

Both JBWs were at the Goodwood Revival last year (or the year before)
Stephen Griswold had one, Marshall Bailey the other
Was either of those the Oulton Park entrant?

[Barry Boor]

Yes, it was Stephen Griswold's car.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
The owner said that his car is a 1960 one. It was, apparently, fitted with a 2.5 litre Maserati engine but the 'powers-that-be' in historic racing insist that if it is running with a Climax, it has to be 1.5.

The reasons for not using the Maserati motor is that if it goes wrong, it's very difficult and expensive to mend!

I am sorry if my reply to Peter came across as abrupt - that was certainly not my intention!

I wonder if we could determine which car it was that ran in the Silver City Trophy and the other races mentioned on Forix.

Sounds & looks more like it is the 1961 car - supposedly a Cooper copy (which it doesn't look like!).

That could have been built with a 2.5 litre Maserati engine for the Intercontinental races in 1961.
It should certainly only run a 1.5 litre Climax because that is all it ever ran in period.

I'm not sure that the Maserati is really more expensive to run than a Climax - when it goes wrong a Climax is bloody expensive as well.
There is something like a 10 grand difference in the purchase price (25 vs 35 for the pieces) between the two, but the Climax is very expensive to build.
Of course the Maserati's Italian horsepower disadvantage it compared to the Climax's British Hp!

I have a vague recollection that Mr Griswold has been uncertain of the exact history of one of his cars in the past, so further investigation may be required.

[roger_valentine]

Both JBWs were at the Goodwood Revival last year (or the year before)

Here are the two at Goodwood 2002:


The Climax car seems to have been in historic racing for some time. This pic (source unknown - possibly 'Half ton formula?) is from Donington 1983


It appears to have acquired more yellow stripes in Barry's recent pic. (Any period photos in colour?)

The Maserati has also changed somewhat since it was at Goodwood in 2000:


but the engine cover both in 2000 and 2002 look nothing like the 'beetle' shape of the original.

[GIGLEUX]

http://membres.lycos.../JBW-MAS-1961-B

The JBW-Maserati's first and only outing with this engine, Silver City Trophy, B'Hatch, 3rd of June 1961. Note the tilted engine and gearbox (said to be a Cooper one, other source giving it as a Colotti).

[Barry Boor]

Bringing this thread back because of a point raised by Macca on the 'rubbish' thread.

Jean-Maurice, any chance of re-posting that photo, please?

[GIGLEUX]

Of course, Barry. That's done.

[Graham Gauld]

Brian Naylor was always a great character. I first met him at the Tourist Trophy race at Dundrod in 1954 where he entered his very scruffy ex-Horace Gould Cooper-MG with George Pitt as his co-driver.
Everywhere he went he created a laugh and was always cheerful. We were all surprised when he suddenly appeared with a brand new Maserati 150 sports car - which he ran for the first time at Charterhall - but he found it too slow which was why he put the Maserati engine into a new Lotus Eleven chassis.
Ironically, the last time I spoke to him was in 1984 under very strange circumstances. It was 1988 and I was in the office of Bill France that ebullient character who created Daytona. The phone rang and he started an animated conversation with someone he referred to as Brian. Eventually I scribbled on a piece of paper " Is that Brian Naylor ?" and pushed it across the desk. Bill nodded and handed over the phone. At that time Brian was based in, I think, Ford Lauderdale, and was in the boat business. A year later Brian was dead in what I believe was an accident. He was working on a boat and it exploded due to accumulated gas in the bilges.

GG

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Ironically, the last time I spoke to him was in 1984 under very strange circumstances. It was 1988...

Mm, very strange circumstances. Those time dilations can be a bugger.

[Graham Gauld]

Wow: age is really catching up. I had written 1984, paused just to check and then realised it was 1988 and forgot to take out the 1984. I happily stand corrected.

GG

[baggybird]

Does anyone out there have build figures for JBW cars. Or is there a register. There is one for sell in the Netherlands at present on Ebay, as far as the pictures show it looks tatty but original, all parts (except engine and gearbox, the expensive bits) are there.
Looks like an interesting restoration project

[David McKinney]

As far as I know the full production list is:
1) JBW-Ferrari sportscar 1958
2) JBW-Maserati F1 (2500cc) 1959-60
3) JBW-Maserati F1 (1500cc) 1961

[jph]

Wasn't the 1958 car a Maerati powered sports car, using the engine from Naylor's crashed Lotus 11? The Ferrari powerd car, using an ex-Whitehead engine, followed in 1959. Similar to the 1958 car but some modifications and I'm pretty sure it was a new car rather than an update. So, possibly 4 in total?

[David McKinney]

I stand corrected

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by ensign14

Mm, very strange circumstances. Those time dilations can be a bugger.

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Wow: age is really catching up. I had written 1984, paused just to check and then realised it was 1988 and forgot to take out the 1984.

It's so good to see that what happens to me these days is also happening to others too...!

PS Hello baggybird! Nice name...

[D-Type]

This gets confusing!

My cars, my Career has the 1958 car with a Maserati 200S engine, which matches my recollections (but memory is fallible!). So the engine can't have been the 150S engine from the Lotus.

[Michael Müller]

There had been 2 sports cars, one with Maserati 200S engine, the other with Ferrari power.
And if "baggybird" reads this thread carefully, he will realize that there had been only 2 JBW singleseaters, one of 1959 with Maserati 250S engine, and another one from 1961 powered by a 150S engine. And both cars are existing still today in healthy state. Hence the "Hamburg chassis" for sure is no JBW.

[baggybird]

any ideas then what this car in the Netherlands is, if you check it out you will see I am now the proud owner of this vehicle, eeeeek.

It has a very Lotus/Cooper style chassis, can anyone out there shed light on the history of this vehicle?

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...item=4578899562.

if you are going to fake a car would you create a JBW when there were only 3/4/5 ever made? It has got JBW plus a number stamped on the chassis plus the radiators have a date stamp 1959 on them.

[Peter Morley]

The rear part of the chassis is not very Cooper or Lotus like, it is very tall!

If you could post (or e-mail directly) some photos of the car (especially details like suspension, brakes, pedals, radiator, engine & gearbox mountings etc) they would help to identify it.

Chassis plate would of course also help, but they are so easy to swap between cars they are of limited use.

It sounds like there was possibly a 4th JBW, but a sportscar - the 2 single seaters are accounted for and probably with documented history. There is always the possiblity that some original pieces 'were discarded' when one of the other cars was 'restored', similar things have been known to happen!

As you say it would not make sense to 'invent' a JBW, but it is possible that someone has mis-identified it in the past, and that identification has since been applied to this car.

[Michael Müller]

I followed this auction already with interest, and I was surprised about the high price the car fetched. As I understand the only "JBW" stamped is on the seatrest, which IMHO is no real basis to identify this remains as "JBW" F1 race car (by using very careful wording).
Even without specific knowledge about this make a quick search through the web within few minutes will unveil the truth:
- only 2 JBW singleseaters built
- only 1 in 1959
- all 2 still existing in wellknown ownership
- both cars completely different from the sales object

Remarks of the seller like "I spoke on the phone to several english enthousiast who know the car, and have seen it race around 1959", and "So far I recently spoke to an older gentleman who had seen this car run around 1959" are - sorry to say - bullshitting, as such statements only are related to the JBW Mk 3, but not to this car. Especially as the seller himself clearly doubts that the bodywork is original.

"All components are English" - what's the basis for this statement? Dunlop disk brakes, fine, but at that time they sold them all over Europe, as there was no real alternative. Are there lables on the other components to make him believe they are British? And if so, why not mentioning the brand?

Why not more photos showing details? Standard road cars on eBay even have photo series of 20 or more!

For me the car looks like a Formula Junior end 50's / early 60's, but in that case I don't believe the wheels are original, steel disc rims are much more likely. Don't remember any FJ of such layout, the rear-engined ones normally had a much lower tail. Wild goose shot - could it be a "Britannia"?
There is also no guarantee at all that this indeed was a running race car, we cannot exclude that it is a homebuilt chassis which never was completed.

[baggybird]

I have bought it on the strength of the photos on Ebay, so I know virtually as much as you at present. I will take some photos as soon as I get the car back (probably Wednesday) and will mail them to you if you let me have your email address.

[Michael Müller]

Probably you are misunderstanding me, my claim concerning more photos goes into the direction of the seller! Normally a full series of good-quality photos helps to sell an item, but there are also circumstances where such photos work in opposite direction...!

[Michael Müller]

Concerning photos you will take, I believe it will be better to post them here at TNF, possibly in a new thread, as there are surely a lot of posters around with much more knowledge about FJ cars as I have.

[baggybird]

Michael, I was replying to the thread left by Peter Morley, unfortunately you replied in between the two. As a matter of interest what are your thoughts on the car that started this thread?

You are right though posting pictures under a new thread may well create a little more information
as to the origins of this car. I must say I never expected it to be a F1 car, but didn't know if Fred Wilkinson went on to manufacture any more cars.

[Peter Morley]

When you can post some more photos it is possible that someone here will be able to help identify the car. Or e-mail them - you can get e-mail addresses via the forum.

The large rear end of the chassis is unusual and was presumably to accomodate a large gearbox (&/or engine), early rear engined cars had a pretty limited choice of gearboxes so that might help identification.

Dunlop disc brakes are unusual for a Junior, they had to have brakes from a homologated road car and British ones tended to be from Triumphs - the reason early Juniors had drum brakes is because they weren't allowed discs until they had appeared on a recognised road car.

It's always interesting trying to identify a car, and as Michael said there is always the possibility it never ran (you will get some clues from the condition of the car), and we first have to establish what nationality it is!

One detail that strikes me as not looking right are the fuel tanks, they look very square which is unusual - but easier to make which might suggest something amateur?

[Michael Müller]

The car posted by Barry for me without doubt is the 1961 monoposto, which ran with 2 different 1500 cc engines, a Maserati 150S and a Climax.

Here some more pictures of the 1959 JBW (the other earlier one) :
















Peter is right of course, brakes for a FJ had to be standard ones. When did the first disc brakes appear on a road car? Remember my first Mercedes from 1962 had them at the front.

I have absolutely no idea what it is or what it could be. 1959/60 F2? If so, only a very unknown homebuilt special, but even as a single appearance I cannot find any potential entry.
So FJ is the only remaining possbility. But there had been so many one-offs that it will be extremely difficult to identify it.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Michael Müller


Peter is right of course, brakes for a FJ had to be standard ones. When did the first disc brakes appear on a road car? Remember my first Mercedes from 1962 had them at the front.

I believe the brakes on an FJ had to be of the same type as the car from which the engine was taken. If we're thinking about 105E/109E engined cars, the Ford Consul Classic 315 (!) introduced in early 1961 had discs on the front wheels. I don't think the Anglia had them before that.

[Michael Müller]

Peter, is that rule valid for the car as such or separated into front and rear axle? Or in other words, could front brakes from the corresponding road car also used for the FJ's rear wheels?

[Ted Walker]

I was sent a set of photos of this car about 5 years ago, I came to the conclusion that it was not strong enough to take a big engine,and was a well built special. There was no mention made of any JBW No stamped on it or any other markings.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

I believe the brakes on an FJ had to be of the same type as the car from which the engine was taken. If we're thinking about 105E/109E engined cars, the Ford Consul Classic 315 (!) introduced in early 1961 had discs on the front wheels. I don't think the Anglia had them before that.

I think you are right as well.
When Ford introduced discs on the Consul they were then allowed on a Junior using an 'Anglia' engine (which was the same as the Consul engine - different capacity maybe).

Seemingly you could use any make (the top cars all used Girling ARs (& NR rears) which were alloy competition callipers not fitted to mass produced road car) it was just the 'principle' that had to be retained.

And to answer Michael's question - no it seems that if the road car only had front disc brakes the junior could have front and rear discs (I can't recall a junior with front discs & rear drums).

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Michael Müller
I have absolutely no idea what it is or what it could be. 1959/60 F2? If so, only a very unknown homebuilt special, but even as a single appearance I cannot find any potential entry.
So FJ is the only remaining possbility. But there had been so many one-offs that it will be extremely difficult to identify it.

The transverse leaf spring on the 1959 JBW probably rules out any possible connection between the 2 cars.

The one detail that should help identify it is the high mounted rear dampers - very unusual.

Got to rush........

[Barry Boor]

I think you are right as well.

Of COURSE he is right, Peter. This is Roger we are referring to!

[VDP]

Disc brakes all round Renault R 8

[baggybird]

posted a few new pictures of the mysterious car I purchased in the Netherlands.

They are under a new thread "JBW? does anyone recognise this car"

if any of you can help identify this car then it would be a great help.

[petefenelon]

Stuart, any chance of merging this, the other JBW thread, and the Brian Naylor one? -- it'd make one very good thread out of various scattered bits of info?

[ian senior]

Originally posted by petefenelon
Stuart, any chance of merging this, the other JBW thread, and the Brian Naylor one? -- it'd make one very good thread out of various scattered bits of info?

A fair point from the voice of reason (Pete) as opposed to the snide one made by the voice of irascibility (me).

[bradbury west]

Looking through the old Autosports which have come my way, I came across something interesting about Brian Naylor's cars.I have looked throuth this thread

http://forums.autosp...ht=Brian Naylor

and on Forix 8W, and in the reference books to hand, and can find no mention of it. I have not checked period race reports, but cannot recall race entries for it in any of the old programmes to hand.

In the issue of 23.2.62, page 288, Naylor on his Stockport number, advertises two cars

1. JBW-Maserati 2.5 Inter-Continental, o.hauled and ready to race. Illness forces sale.
First £950, but worth double.

2. JBW-Aston Martin, 2 seater sports racing, 3 litre, discs all round, fully prepared, £495

Do we know to which car the second item refers and what became of it? Did the Aston engine replace the 3 litre Ferrari?


Roger Lund.

[bradbury west]

Then story goes on....

Autosport 27.4.1962 For sale

JBW Sports racing car, 2 seater, App C, 1960 unregistered, was fitted with Ferrari engine when raced, now with 3 litre Aston Martin engine and gearbox. Spec includes Dunlop light alloy wheels, de Dion rear axle,Girling disc brakes, rack and pinion steering etc etc, suitable for International competition. £490 or offer. Must sell , room required.

Seller is given as George Pitt.

By chance in the May 4, 1962 issue there is a Francis Penn report of a Rufforth meeting, with a photo of a shark-nostrilled, Ferrari engined Cooper Monaco, driven by Phil Barak, listed as being ex Salvadori in '59, with a Maserati engine, but that Brian Naylor swapped the power units in 1960

So, full circle?

Roger Lund.

[Graham Gauld]

Phil Barak bought the ex-Coombs Cooper Monaco Maserati but fitted with the Ferrari engine from the JBW-Ferrari from George Pitt.
He eventually put a rod through the side of the engine at Charterhall and had a pal in Newcastle shipyards to weld a plate on the block as he could not afford to do anything else.

[Sharman]

Is George still with us? I said on another thread that I thouht that he took over Brian Naylors premises in Stockport when BN removed himself to France

[bradbury west]

Graham, perhaps that is why he had it for sale later that summer.

RL

[Gary Barak]

The pal from the shipyards was called Eddie Evans

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Phil Barak bought the ex-Coombs Cooper Monaco Maserati but fitted with the Ferrari engine from the JBW-Ferrari from George Pitt.
He eventually put a rod through the side of the engine at Charterhall and had a pal in Newcastle shipyards to weld a plate on the block as he could not afford to do anything else.

[Jagjon]

Then story goes on....

Autosport 27.4.1962 For sale

JBW Sports racing car, 2 seater, App C, 1960 unregistered, was fitted with Ferrari engine when raced, now with 3 litre Aston Martin engine and gearbox. Spec includes Dunlop light alloy wheels, de Dion rear axle,Girling disc brakes, rack and pinion steering etc etc, suitable for International competition. £490 or offer. Must sell , room required.

Seller is given as George Pitt.

By chance in the May 4, 1962 issue there is a Francis Penn report of a Rufforth meeting, with a photo of a shark-nostrilled, Ferrari engined Cooper Monaco, driven by Phil Barak, listed as being ex Salvadori in '59, with a Maserati engine, but that Brian Naylor swapped the power units in 1960

So, full circle?

Roger Lund.

http://img64.imageshack.us/g/scan
In about 1964/5 I remember the sports racing car being parked outside the garage opposite the Mollington Banaster Hotel, Parkgate Road outside Chester, it had the cut away front wings and low nose of the JBW-Maserati.
Sometime late 1960/70 I saw it advertised, I think in M/Sport by Ben Whitehouse Garages (also on Parkgate Road)
In the early 1970's maybe '74 I bought from a guy in Wrexham this car fitted with a Jaguar 2.4 engine and no bonnet.
I went to Ben Whitehouse garage but he had died and a woman was the owner. She told me when the car had been parked at the other garage it had been stolen, and when it was recovered from Birkenhead the bonnet was missing. She had gone with BenW to Stockport the day he bought the car, as he knew Brian Naylor who often came to buy cars at the Queensferry Motor Auctions of Bernie &co. There had been 3 racing cars there and she thought that this car had been the Maserati engined one!
The Ferrari engined car had originally had a transaxle but there was no evidence of this in what I had, however the body shape although similar, is different to the post of the car shown in Eire. Made by Rochdale Panels?
What happened to the Aston engine, isn't known, as it sat at Ben W Garage for years it could have been sold out of the car or dissappeared when it was stolen circa 1964.
I sold the car to Jeremy Broad in about 1975, and he knew it as the JBW-Ferrari engined car.
photos here:http://img64.imageshack.us/g/scan
What I don't know is where the JBW-Maserati sports racer is, anyone know?
I believe Alan Riley in Worcester has the engine.
Regarding the 2.5 litre single seater, it was advertised by Jack Cordingley, Rossendale. Lancs. in Autosport June17th 1966, £600.
Advertised as having a 4CLT Maserati engine. I rang him 10 years later and he still had it! He'd knocked off the rear suspension on a hill climb in the Isle of Mann, but otherwise it was OK.
I have George Pitt being at Higher Hillgate Depot. Stockport.
The JBW Maserati without engine (I assumed the sports) I have recorded in the late 1960's as being in Canterbury, Daventry, then Bournemouth!
reputed to be belonging to an engineer at a radio station? In case it jogs some memories.
What I don't recognise are any other JBW. The Griswold car or the ebay Belgium? one......I know nothing!
One car advertiised in 1960's was supposed to have "Mag Wheels, discs, Lotus 33 suspension", it is either the sports or the other single seater as Jack Cordingley still owned the 2.5 car at this time.
Incidently as a youngster my first knowledge of Naylor was at Oulton Park driving a 356 Porsche I think, about 1954/5.
If David Ghandi also of Stockport was still around he would know lots to add I believe.
Naylor must have been quite an interesting character, owned the first Ferrari 250 Berlinetta in UK, I was told he aquired the Maserati engines as one way other people got their money out of Italy at the time, but just stories!
Looking back, not many people did all he experienced.
Hope this fills some gaps.
John C.

[Jagjon]

http://img64.imageshack.us/g/scan
In about 1964/5 I remember the sports racing car being parked outside the garage opposite the Mollington Banaster Hotel, Parkgate Road outside Chester, it had the cut away front wings and low nose of the JBW-Maserati.
Sometime late 1960/70 I saw it advertised, I think in M/Sport by Ben Whitehouse Garages (also on Parkgate Road)
In the early 1970's maybe '74 I bought from a guy in Wrexham this car fitted with a Jaguar 2.4 engine and no bonnet.
I went to Ben Whitehouse garage but he had died and a woman was the owner. She told me when the car had been parked at the other garage it had been stolen, and when it was recovered from Birkenhead the bonnet was missing. She had gone with BenW to Stockport the day he bought the car, as he knew Brian Naylor who often came to buy cars at the Queensferry Motor Auctions of Bernie &co. There had been 3 racing cars there and she thought that this car had been the Maserati engined one!
The Ferrari engined car had originally had a transaxle but there was no evidence of this in what I had, however the body shape although similar, is different to the post of the car shown in Eire. Made by Rochdale Panels?
What happened to the Aston engine, isn't known, as it sat at Ben W Garage for years it could have been sold out of the car or dissappeared when it was stolen circa 1964.
I sold the car to Jeremy Broad in about 1975, and he knew it as the JBW-Ferrari engined car.
photos here:http://img64.imageshack.us/g/scan
What I don't know is where the JBW-Maserati sports racer is, anyone know?
I believe Alan Riley in Worcester has the engine.
Regarding the 2.5 litre single seater, it was advertised by Jack Cordingley, Rossendale. Lancs. in Autosport June17th 1966, £600.






Advertised as having a 4CLT Maserati engine. I rang him 10 years later and he still had it! He'd knocked off the rear suspension on a hill climb in the Isle of Mann, but otherwise it was OK.
I have George Pitt being at Higher Hillgate Depot. Stockport.
The JBW Maserati without engine (I assumed the sports) I have recorded in the late 1960's as being in Canterbury, Daventry, then Bournemouth!
reputed to be belonging to an engineer at a radio station? In case it jogs some memories.
What I don't recognise are any other JBW. The Griswold car or the ebay Belgium? one......I know nothing!
One car advertiised in 1960's was supposed to have "Mag Wheels, discs, Lotus 33 suspension", it is either the sports or the other single seater as Jack Cordingley still owned the 2.5 car at this time.
Incidently as a youngster my first knowledge of Naylor was at Oulton Park driving a 356 Porsche I think, about 1954/5.
If David Ghandi also of Stockport was still around he would know lots to add I believe.
Naylor must have been quite an interesting character, owned the first Ferrari 250 Berlinetta in UK, I was told he aquired the Maserati engines as one way other people got their money out of Italy at the time, but just stories!
Looking back, not many people did all he experienced.
Hope this fills some gaps.
John C.