33 replies to this topic

[dmj]

Today I purchased a nice 1:26 model of 1965 Buick Riviera, complete with black vinyl roof. Now, that feature I always considered as an ultimate chic statement of Seventies - no proper owner of an Opel Commodore GS/E or Ford Capri could do without it, could he? Jaguar XJC had it in series, of course, Toyota Crown in better versions probably too... But 1965? It certainly seems a little bit earlier than what I'd expect, but then, I don't know much about American cars anyway... I remember seeing a pic of '70 Buick GS with it - as my Riviera is also labelled Gran Sport could I presume it was part of GS option at Buick? But was it first implementation of black vinyl roof or someone tried it earlier? I know that Kaiser Dragon had a sort of it back in 1954 but it was colored, IIRC, not the classic black one that would eventually come into fashion. Oh, and keeping in tune with racing nature of this forum, any pics and memories of vinyl-roofed cars in racing action?

[David Birchall]

Going back to 1947 the Riley RM series cars had Vinyl roofs and they were raced!

[Ray Bell]

...and isn't there a pic of one racing in Bill Tuckey's Book of Australian Motor Racing?

[GIGLEUX]

Just after WW1 there was the Wymann system with simili-leather.

I have in mind the Peugeots of the Tourism race of the 1925 ACF GP at Montlhéry.



Here is the car of Wagner just before the start.

[GIGLEUX]

Not Wymann but Weymann of course!

[Mac Lark]

I understand XJCs had to have vinyl roofing because of some imperfections in the finishing process..

What I can't recall is if this applied to the racing versions.

[BRG]

IIRC, Ford GB fitted vinyl roofs to the Cortina 1600E and Corsair 2000E (E meaning Executive) in the late 1960s and this started the trend in the UK at least. Soon every car with any sort of up-market image was sporting this ‘stylish’ look. The look was certainly imported from the US, so a 1965 Buick might well have been the original culprit

I was greatly amused by a recent story that owners of a current Chrysler model in the US (is it the 300? I don’t recall the exact model) are asking to have vinyl roofs fitted, despite Chrysler’s intense opposition – there have been ructions between the manufacturer and some of its dealers over the issue. Seems like the customer isn’t always right in the USA!

[eldougo]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell
...and isn't there a pic of one racing in Bill Tuckey's Book of Australian Motor Racing?

_______________________________________

Hi Ray your right again. Page107 Fishermen's Bend Circuit 1955 ,Riley No61 .Vinyl roof.

[bill moffat]

At college my pal's Corsair 2000E suffered peeling gold paint and peeling vinyl, earning it the affectionate nick name of "bald eagle".

I will nominate Bernard Unett's Chrysler Avenger GT as the most high profile vinyl racer...

[ian senior]

Quote

Originally posted by BRG
IIRC, Ford GB fitted vinyl roofs to the Cortina 1600E and Corsair 2000E (E meaning Executive) in the late 1960s and this started the trend in the UK at least. Soon every car with any sort of up-market image was sporting this ‘stylish’ look. The look was certainly imported from the US, so a 1965 Buick might well have been the original culprit

I was greatly amused by a recent story that owners of a current Chrysler model in the US (is it the 300? I don’t recall the exact model) are asking to have vinyl roofs fitted, despite Chrysler’s intense opposition – there have been ructions between the manufacturer and some of its dealers over the issue. Seems like the customer isn’t always right in the USA!

The Humber Imperial, a tarted up Super Snipe announced at the 1964 London motor show, was probably the first British car to revive the vinyl roof trend in the UK. I don't think the Cortina 1600E came with vinyl as standard, but it was a common after market feature. That understeering brute the Corsair 2000E was the first Ford to have the plastic top as standard, from its announcment in early 1967.

[Vrba]

IIRC, Citroën DS had vinyl roof when it came out in 1955....

Hrvoje

[Garagiste]

Brings to mind "The Comic Strip Presents: The Bullshitters". At the training school for TV Cops:

Instructor: There's a chance for a great moody profile shot as you get into the car - but we don't want it ruined by a reflection, so what do we like to use?

Recruits: Black vinyl roofs sir!

[Arthur Anderson]

Quote

Originally posted by dmj
Today I purchased a nice 1:26 model of 1965 Buick Riviera, complete with black vinyl roof. Now, that feature I always considered as an ultimate chic statement of Seventies - no proper owner of an Opel Commodore GS/E or Ford Capri could do without it, could he? Jaguar XJC had it in series, of course, Toyota Crown in better versions probably too... But 1965? It certainly seems a little bit earlier than what I'd expect, but then, I don't know much about American cars anyway... I remember seeing a pic of '70 Buick GS with it - as my Riviera is also labelled Gran Sport could I presume it was part of GS option at Buick? But was it first implementation of black vinyl roof or someone tried it earlier? I know that Kaiser Dragon had a sort of it back in 1954 but it was colored, IIRC, not the classic black one that would eventually come into fashion. Oh, and keeping in tune with racing nature of this forum, any pics and memories of vinyl-roofed cars in racing action?

The vinyl top is actually a throwback to the look of the leather (or on cheaper cars, leatherette--a catch-all term for artificial leather) top coverings used on closed car bodies beginning in the late teens or early 20's, both in the US and Europe/England. This treatment was used to give the look of conservative luxury, beginning first with custom coachwork on luxury cars, then spreading downward, until such popularly priced makes as Ford and Chevrolet used leatherette or rubberized cloth-backed material to cover not only the fabric insert of the roof (soft material roof inserts over wood bows was pretty much standard until the advent of the all-steel "turret" tops of the middle 1930's), but also the upper rear of the top and rear upper quarters down to the beltline moldings. With the introduction of the one-piece stamped steel (turret) top on closed bodies, leather and leatherette pretty much disappeared from American cars, except for the ultra-high-end Cadillac Series 75 and Series 90 (the legendary V16) cars by the late 30's, finally going away completely with American cars following WW-II.

In 1950, needing something to counteract GM's introduction of the Sport Coupe or "hardtop", Ford Motor Company dressed up the Ford Tudor Sedan into the Crestliner, Mercury Club Coupe into the Capri, and the smaller, Mercury-bodied Lincoln 2-door sedan into the Lido. These, in addition to other trim and color accents, had a tight, glued on, vinyl roof covering. This option went away at the end of the 1951 model year on all three makes. Kaiser was the next to use this treatment, first with the 1951 Kaiser , and then again with the 1955 Kaiser Dragon.

In 1959, Cadillac's Eldorado Seville (the hardtop) came with an optional white vinyl top, and approximately 90% of 1959 Eldorado Sevilles had this treatment, in white only. However, after the 1960 model year, vinyl tops were discontinued by Cadillac. Vinyl tops, still glued tightly to the sheet metal roof, returned in 1964 on the Cadillac Calais and Coupe DeVille hardtops, and then appeared as an option on the 1965 Mustang coupe, and were standard, I believe, on the new 1965 Ford LTD. For 1966, this was now a craze in the US auto industry, with glued on vinyl top material being offered virtually across the entire range of sedans and hardtops in the US.

I believe it was about 1973 or so when US automakers began offering vinyl tops as padded treatments, to give a more formal look--but generally as half (or "opera") tops, again trying to capitalize on the old "landau" look so very speaking of the luxury town cars and town sedans of the late 20's which had folding landau rear tops. This treatment pretty much fell out of favor by the end of the 1970's, and only returns today as faux convertible or convertible sedan roofs, now in fabric, padded and ribbed, but as aftermarket installations, generally on Cadillacs and Lincoln Town Cars.

That's pretty much the way I remember it.

[Arthur Anderson]

Quote

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Not Wymann but Weymann of course!

Actually, Weymann's system was a complete body construction method. Weymann created their body shells with wood framing (as did virtually all car bodies through the middle 1930's), but instead of the normal cabinet-working dovetail and mortice & tenon joinings, Weyman used somewhat flexible metal connections between the body's wooden framing members. This was to eliminate creaking, squeaking sounds as the body flexed with the rather flexible ladder frames of the age, they being built from simple channel steel side rails and crossmembers of various types.

This wood structure was then covered with wire mesh (to us here in the States, it's called "chicken wire"), over which was laid a thick covering of cotton batting, not unlike a padded cotton mattress pad, but in several layers. Over this, a fabric, treated with paint, in whatever color was desired, sprayed to look like pebble-grained leather, called "Zepelon" was stretched into place, and tacked to the wood framing at door openings, and around the open cavity in the center of the roof, if a closed car, or around the edges of a roadster cockpit, or around the edges of the top of a Phaeton body. Zepelon also gave a very quiet body, no drumming or rattling. However, Zepelon was (and still isn't) very durable, and it weathered badly, and quickly. Only a handful of true Weymann bodies exist today (I know of only 5--3 Stutz Safety 8 cars, and two Duesenberg Model J's).

In the US, Weymann's licensee was Weymann-American Body Company of Indianapolis, which accounts for the use of this body construction on Duesenbergs and Stutz, both of which were produced in Indy.

Art

[Arthur Anderson]

Quote

Originally posted by Mac Lark
I understand XJCs had to have vinyl roofing because of some imperfections in the finishing process..

What I can't recall is if this applied to the racing versions.

As did all street-driven '70 Plymouth Superbirds, due to the factory's not wanting to grind and lead the seam where the '69 Dodge Charger 500 flush rear window section was welded into the Plymouth Belvedere HT body.

Art

[GIGLEUX]

Quote

Originally posted by Vrba
IIRC, Citroën DS had vinyl roof when it came out in 1955....

Hrvoje

??? No, but a kind of plastic.

[dbw]

an old hollywood trick was to spray a thin coat of hot wax on the side of the vehicle to be filmed...this resulted in a "matte"finish that would not relect the entire film crew on the flank of the car in the scene...

indeed the direct ancestor of the "vinyl roof" was the folding hood[top] on horsedrawn carriages....with the advent of automobiles a "faux" version was developed to give the look of luxury [dummy landau irons included] to essentially a fixed head body...

funeral vehicles were a prime example of this practice ...any racing hearses out there??

[David McKinney]

Only slightly OT - was the Weymann company English or French? Or something else?

[dmj]

Thank you all for your answers, especially to Arthur - that was just a kind of historical overview I was looking for. I had to presume it was another American craze spreading into Europe, led here by subsidiaries of GM and Ford anyway. But from your overview it seems that others, including Buick, didn't implement it before 1966 so it might be that my model is incorret - I will check.

[ian senior]

Quote

Originally posted by bill moffat
At college my pal's Corsair 2000E suffered peeling gold paint and peeling vinyl, earning it the affectionate nick name of "bald eagle".

I will nominate Bernard Unett's Chrysler Avenger GT as the most high profile vinyl racer...

What about "Yogi " Muir's Wiggins Teape Camaro? Fairly sure this had a vinyl top.

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
??? No, but a kind of plastic.

The fibreglass roof was only on the ID... was it not?

[bill moffat]

Quote

Originally posted by ian senior


What about "Yogi " Muir's Wiggins Teape Camaro? Fairly sure this had a vinyl top.

I think you're right Ian.

The 1976 BTCC season surely represented the peak of vinylism. The American big bangers had been outlawed but we now had the finest ever collection of Euro-vinyl .

By my reckoning the Capris, Avengers, Dolomites, Celicas, Magnums and Alfasuds all wore wigs whilst only the Minis and (perhaps) Commodores went bald.

[bill moffat]

..and on the subject of Camaros there was the controversy over the Penske Camaros in 1969. The theory was that the car's vinyl roof was not only pretty but also concealed the fact that the underlying metal roof was, ahem, slightly thinner than the manufacturer had intended ;)

[Don Capps]

Petty Engineering ran their cars in several events with the vinyl roof, and on one occasion ripped it off during the event since it seemed to be the source of extra drag.

[dmj]

Quote

Originally posted by bill moffat


I think you're right Ian.

The 1976 BTCC season surely represented the peak of vinylism. The American big bangers had been outlawed but we now had the finest ever collection of Euro-vinyl .

By my reckoning the Capris, Avengers, Dolomites, Celicas, Magnums and Alfasuds all wore wigs whilst only the Minis and (perhaps) Commodores went bald.

Gosh! Alfasuds!? I thought Alfa Romeo was immune to vinyl craze... Are you sure?

[Mark Bennett]

Quote

Originally posted by bill moffat
..and on the subject of Camaros there was the controversy over the Penske Camaros in 1969. The theory was that the car's vinyl roof was not only pretty but also concealed the fact that the underlying metal roof was, ahem, slightly thinner than the manufacturer had intended ;)

Not just a theory. Mark Donahue admits it all in his book.

[Arthur Anderson]

Quote

Originally posted by dbw
an old hollywood trick was to spray a thin coat of hot wax on the side of the vehicle to be filmed...this resulted in a "matte"finish that would not relect the entire film crew on the flank of the car in the scene...

indeed the direct ancestor of the "vinyl roof" was the folding hood[top] on horsedrawn carriages....with the advent of automobiles a "faux" version was developed to give the look of luxury [dummy landau irons included] to essentially a fixed head body...

funeral vehicles were a prime example of this practice ...any racing hearses out there??

Sort of, but not quite. As I posted earlier, the faux-leather look really begins with the trimming of an entire top of a car in the day when the center-section of the roof on most cars was covered in rubberized cloth, over wood bows. This was necessary for two reasons: First of all, the steels of the days before "mild steel" came into use about 1933-34 could not be drawn (stamped) into large complicated shapes without splitting or tearing, nor did any automakers (or body suppliers) possess stamping presses large enough to do that job either. However, the idea of an automobile roof fully covered in either leather, leatherette, or after vinyl became available in grades that could be used (PVC was introduced in the very early 30's, by DuPont) has its roots more in the stylish, closed carriages of the 19th Century, notably the Victoria, which was characterized by its close-coupled body, fixed roof with side windows in the door which could be slid down out of sight, and a leather covered roof AND upper quarter panels. Another example of this trim was found also on the Hansom Cab, generally a 2-wheel carriage used as a horse-drawn taxicab.

The "fake" landau irons (on a Landau carriage, these S-curved bars, with their hinge "knob" in the center, were actually part of the folding mechanism of the collapsible roof, used for stability and ease of operation) were used on cars with fixed tops, primarily coupes (among American cars, 1928-31 Model A Ford Sport Coupes and the 1932 Ford B & Model 18 Sport coupes) with fixed fabric roofs on exposed bows, having the look and finish of a Cabriolet (convertible), but without the folding top feature (Ford's "Business Coupe of the Model A-B-Model 18 years used exactly the same top as the Sport Coupe, but with an oval "opera window" in place of the fake landau bars, while of course, Ford built true folding-top cabriolets in those years as well, having almost exactly the same look.

Ford, through most of the 1928 model year, produced only one 5-window coupe, their "Special Coupe, which is indistinguishable from the 1929 Model A coupe, except for leatherette covering on the rear quarters of the top above the beltline, extending across the center opening and top bows.
Luxury car coachbuilders also produced fixed-roof coupes in the 1920's with padded leather roof treatments, most notably Fleetwood, Locke and Derham (I chanced to photograph the one and only Duesenberg Model A --1925--with a Fleetwood coupe body at Auburn Indiana's 2004 ACD Festival this past weekend), and Brunn, the primary coachbuilder for Lincoln from 1929 to the end of custom-bodied Lincolns in 1940, produced numerous K and KB coupes in those years, at the direction of Edsel Ford, Lincoln's president and general manager. However, Brunn was just about the only coachbuilder using this styling look, the others, those that managed to survive through the 30's, did not, except on the occasional customer order, Cadillac and Packard having abandoned this look by 1933-34, their primary reason seeming to be the lack of durability of leather, rubber, or vinyl in the varying (and often harsh) weather.

Auburn was quite fond of the fabric (read that duck, or canvas) top covering on closed cars, however, a great many Auburn 8 and V12 sedans (and a few coupes) getting this treatment, as well as many Cord L-29 cars. However, Auburn Automobile Company discontinued this look after the 1932 model year. Only one Cord 810 coupe (Cord built 3 of them) was fitted with a leather-covered top, that car having been built for Harvey Firestone Jr, now on permanent display in the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg Museum in Auburn.

Funeral coaches very, very seldom, if ever, prior to the early 1950's, were fitted with fake landau bars, due mostly to their general use in many small American cities and towns as ambulances in addition to being hearses, thus requiring larger quarter windows for visibility. By the late 1950's, however, funeral homes began shedding themselves of the responsibility of being ambulance services, so the hearse became more specialized, and the landau "look" entered into vogue, both with vinyl coverings, but also as "slick top" cars with painted roofs.

Ford Motor Company also began offering the "Landau" look beginning with the 1966 Thunderbird hardtop, the Thunderbird Landau having no rear quarter windows, a padded vinyl roof, with chromed fixed landau bars as added trim (they weren't even installed so as to stand out from the quarter panel, rather they were simply appliques). This trim level continued through the 1970's on the Lincoln Continental Mk-III, Mk-IV, and Mk-V, along with the very similar Thunderbirds.

Art

[VDP]

C.T. WEYMANN was american but living in Paris, made a coachbuilding company with his flexible patern, the wood was a like pine tree.
He sold the ''savoir faire'' to others company all over the world. This process ended in the end of the twenties.


Robert

[WDH74]

Regarding new cars with vinyl roofs- there are plenty of bodyshops that will put a vinyl roof on any car you bring in. I've seen them on everything from Ford Tauruses to Toyota Tercels, and occasionally dealers will get this done for you (usually adding gold badging as well). I don't know why Chrysler is upset by this, unless it's to try and avoid having their cars aligned with a more, shall we say, mature buying audience.

-William

[GIGLEUX]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell


The fibreglass roof was only on the ID... was it not?

No both had fiberglass roofs but they were not finished the same way, + on the DS it was painted.

[bretonbanquet]

Here's a Dolomite in action complete with vinyl roof. Only Dolomite Sprints had vinyl roofs as part of the distinction between the 2-litre 16 valve Sprint and the more ordinary 1850 and 1500. On mine, the vinyl used to trap inordinate amounts of moisture and rot set in

[Arthur Anderson]

Quote

Originally posted by VDP
C.T. WEYMANN was american but living in Paris, made a coachbuilding company with his flexible patern, the wood was a like pine tree.
He sold the ''savoir faire'' to others company all over the world. This process ended in the end of the twenties.


Robert

Correct. Except that Weymann-American Body Company of Indianapolis built several Weymann wood & fabric bodies for both Duesenbergs and Stutz as late as 1932, when they converted to conventional coachwork, as one of the "house coachbuilders" for Duesenberg. The famed, black & white "Fishtail" Duesenberg SJ Speedster, built in 1933 for George Whittel of Woodland & Lake Tahoe California was one of Weymann's bodies, as was the last of the original 5 Duesenberg Torpedo Phaetons, built in 1935.

Weymann American, however, used ash for framing their fabric bodies, not pine.

Art

[dbw]

can someone please post a photo of a side view of the prototype ss1?????...


i'm tryin but can't get it to work...

[dmj]

Quote

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson


Funeral coaches very, very seldom, if ever, prior to the early 1950's, were fitted with fake landau bars, due mostly to their general use in many small American cities and towns as ambulances in addition to being hearses, thus requiring larger quarter windows for visibility. By the late 1950's, however, funeral homes began shedding themselves of the responsibility of being ambulance services, so the hearse became more specialized, and the landau "look" entered into vogue, both with vinyl coverings, but also as "slick top" cars with painted roofs.

Now, this became really off-off-topic but I'm quite surprised by this statement, as I was't aware of double ambulance/hearse service... I'd suppose that at least at some cities proper hearses had to come to use much earlier, especially in Hollywood. But I have another question: IIRC one undertaker in Hollywood at the end of Fifties ordered a few hearses based on Facel Vega Excellence! Does anyone know about it? Did any survive? Any pics? Presumably that undertaker already had hearses for respectful passed customers of other main European origins, Rolls-Royce for British, Mercedes-Benz for German and, I presume, Lancia for Italian ones. What an amazing fleet it must have been!