40 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

Perusing the cars in the Brabham celebration area at Goodwood, we noticed the famous old story repeated on one of the car information boards.

This is where Dean Delamont suggested to Jack Brabham in 1954 or thereabouts, that he might do quite well if he came over to Europe.

My twisted brain immediately had the thought - what if Jack had thought about it; considered it, and then said "Thanks, but no thanks! I've got a nice little business down here and I think I'll stay put."

What would have been different? And, where would we be now?

DISCUSS.

[eldougo]

I guess Barry we would all be a lot poorer for not having this great man and his cars around to see ,to work on and to drive, and it sure would have taken manymore years for Australians to come to love F1 and have it it our lifes.We would have not known none of the following.

RonTauranac , The Repco V8 , Danny Hulme,No where for us Australian to go and work and learn at the Brabham Factory, his son's Geoff Gary & David, No F3 or F2 cars , And we would be pushed to have a good field of Historic cars at meetings ,so on & so on.
Well as we say out here it's GOD's own country so i guess god was a Brabham fan before we ever know about him.

[angst]

He was a leading force in getting the Coopers onto the grid as well wasn't he? Would the Cooper-Climax have come to fruition without him? How much longer would it have been before rear engined Grand Prix cars became the norm?

Would the first monocoque Lotus have been a front-engined car? Would Coventry-Climax and BRM have used a V8 format on their 1.5 litre cars for front engines? Would Aston-Martin have made a better impact and Clark have stayed with them? Would Porsche have been the instigators of the rear-engined 'revolution' and have gained more success than they did, or would they never have taken part? Would the low-line car have been used for a comeback for the Vanwall team? Would Scarab have had a longer participation? Would a succesful Ferrari team have backed the calls for the 2.5 formula to continue, or would the Continental formula have got off the ground? Would Jean Behra have pushed so desperately in '59 without the Coopers and lost his Ferrari drive?

As well as the points made by eldougo there are alot of question marks over the development of F1 I feel.

[fines]

Timeline:

1961 - Porsche fields the first rear-engined car in F1

1966 - the last F1 race to be won by a traditional front-engined car is the 1966 Italian GP (Ferrari).

1975 - Lotus enters the Indy 500 for the first time

1977 - A. J. Foyt scores the last Indy win for a roadster

1978 - Mario Andretti takes the first Indy win for Lotus with a new Ford-financed Cosworth engine

1989 - the last Offenhauser to start at Indy

1991 - a Stanguellini wins the Monaco GP F3 race for the 20th time

[ensign14]

Roy Salvadori's 1959 World Championship was a popular one, albeit there was a tinge of regret that Stirling Moss could not get the crown that was rightfully his.

However Stirling rectified the situation in 1960. John Cooper could not modify his aging chassis as young Kiwi Bruce McLaren lacked the experience, if not the talent; Moss even sauntering home at Spa, driving well within himself and crossing the line with wheel askance as a hub broke on the last lap.

McLaren took much greater control of the Cooper outfit from the mid 60s onwards, eventually setting up his own F1 concern, for whom Denny Hulme got a long overdue F1 drive in 1968. Many people thought Bruce acted out of sentimentality to a fellow countryman that had been scrabbling around for rides but Hulme showed his ability with several Can-Am wins – alongside Bruce, before his sad death whilst testing.

Bruce's greatest moments had come at Indianapolis. An unusual addition to the Brickyard entry in 1961, his 9th place caused him to consider abandoning F1 entirely and remaining in the States. He satisfied himself by turning up to Indy in a self-engineered car in 1962 and battled with the Agajanian Special and Jim Clark before settling for 3rd. Charlie Cooper enjoyed the dollars that brought in and encouraged him further for 1964, when the Lotus tyre disasters left the field wide open for McLaren to become the first New Zealander to enjoy milk in Victory Lane, Speedway, Indiana, a whole lap clear of Graham Hill. Bruce continued with his car development and his chassis would win at Indy all the way into the 70s.

Meanwhile, back in F1, the new 3 litre formula was causing problems for many teams. BRM tried jamming 2 engines together, the resulting mess inhibiting many teams. Climax gave up with their project, whilst teams left, right and centre were doing their best to run with whatever they could get. Even some Australian firm tried to foist something called a Repco on the field, but no-one fell for that one.

Surtees won an unexpected second title following a shift from Ferrari to Cooper, but it was the two John’s last hurrah. 1967 was something of a Lotus benefit as even despite woeful reliability Jim Clark was easily the class of the field. His finest hour probably coming at Monza, when he made up a lap on the field before losing out to John Surtees when running out of fuel.

After Stewart and the Matra came to the fore in the late 60s, Jochen Rindt took the biggest risk of his career and went to Lotus for 1969 and 1970. In the latter year he took the World title, so far clear of the field that he could tell Chapman where to shove his suggestion that he run Monza without wings. Chapman promptly fired him but Ickx was too far behind. And anyway Rindt had no worries – manager Bernie Ecclestone had teamed with a canny Kiwi called Tauranac and had a car ready for 1971. As it was Rindt retired at the end of the season, having climbed his personal mountain, and Ecclestone had to find another set of drivers.

******

One driver who was not considered for the brand new BT (Bernie-Tauranac) was a grizzled Aussie veteran, who had pretty much wiped the floor with the Europeans in the Tasman series throughout the 60s in his own Brabham Special. Perhaps he would have been worth a look 10, even 20 years earlier, but who would take a chance on someone in their late 40s?

Jack Brabham - one of the great 'what-ifs'. Maybe he would have been a multiple World Champ, but I very much doubt it - how on earth would he have coped so far from home?

[repcobrabham]

well, i'd be screwed!

but seriously: as an australian in his late-20s who has living in europe for the last three years, i can tell you the idea of SJB not taking the plunge just doesn't compute. we're all pre-programmed to adventure and explore (think how far and for how long our ancestors travelled to set up shop in the first place) and even back then we must have known that the biggest opportunities laid in those countries with the largest populations, closest to other major centres. add to this an abstract internal conviction that we could and can do anything better than those in the old world and as i said, the idea just doesn't compute.

i'm sorry i couldn't embrace your hypothetical, barry - it's certainly a thought-provoking notion - but i just can't imagine a man of SJB's character settling for suburban mediocrity. that said, i must admit the history of peter brock (not the daytona peter brock, foreign posters, but the aussie touring car king) can be offered as a counterpoint ... but he hit the scene at a golden moment in touring cars, and that business with the energy polariser made me suspect him of being a bit of a flake.

[ensign14]

How about someone like Leo Geoghegan? He didn't appear to be that much of a slouch. Or Frank Matich? They never really hit Europe.

[David McKinney]

Not a bad scenario, ensign14
But if Brabham had not gone to Europe, and not sold his discarded Coopers to New Zealanders such as the McLarens, would young Bruce have made the local impact which won him the Driver to Europe award? And if he had, he would not have had the connections (via Brabham) with the Cooper factory which led to him receiving favoured treatment in F2, and then a place on the F1 team.
Equally, would Hulme have shown the brilliance he did in NZ without the ex-Brabham Cooper he drove. again leading to the Driver to Europe award? He certainly wouldn't have got his break with the Brabham team in FJ

[Barry Boor]

I like it, Ensign, but what I can't quite pick up from your timeline is, when, if ever, do cars begin to have their engines at the wrong end?

Maybe there would have been almost no antipodean involvement in European racing at all.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Equally, would Hulme have shown the brilliance he did in NZ without the ex-Brabham Cooper he drove. again leading to the Driver to Europe award? He certainly wouldn't have got his break with the Brabham team in FJ

That's why he was scratching around for rides. He was rooming with Frank Gardner & they took it in turns.

Bruce McLaren showed his mettle in homegrown stuff he developed. John Cooper took a shine to him cos he had the gumption to hitchhike his way 12,000 miles to Surbiton.

And Salvadori was the star who showed Cooper that rear engines were the way to go, running as high as 3rd at Monaco in 1957.

The biggest tragedy was Salvadori turned down the Aston Martin ride in F1. That car may well have turned the front engines back around. Ottorino Volonterio was never really the right man for it.

[petefenelon]

*THE* what-if re: Sir Jack's career is "what if he brought the Redex Special to the UK" - assuming it was as magical as he claimed it was (both in "When the Flag Drops" and the DCN/Sir Jack book) - and it's not hard to believe - then he should've dominated the UK single seater scene for a year or so. Paradoxically, I reckon that would've been bad for Cooper - either they would've persisted with a front-engined car while Sir Jack was winning, or his performances would've taken him to Maserati or Ferrari or Vanwall as a works driver...

If the Redex really was the best front-engined Cooper, it may well have put back the cause of mid-engined GP cars by several years...

[MCS]

...apart from the points above (some of them quite superb ) more English and British World Champions...?!!

MCS

[dretceterini]

I really don't think Sir Jack had much to do with Cooper building rear engined F1 cras; after all, they had been building rear-engined F3 cars for years.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

I think it more than fair to acknowledge the contribution Sir Jack made to the World Championship Coopers that extended far beyond his driving abilities. It is difficult for me to think of one without the other.

I have always wondered (another what-if) whether Jack would have stayed with Cooper if Charles had made him a partner. The answer to that question creates a string of possiblities of the future shape of F1.

[Ray Bell]

I think it's worth bearing in mind what David has said about McLaren, Hulme (and don't forget Amon...) not venturing north west as readily...

But what of Tauranac? Would he have gone and formed an alliance with someone else? Maybe Parnell?

And surely Porsche would have wiped the F2 field clean in 1960 and then shown that rear engines were the way to go in 1960?

[Barry Boor]

Excellent! Keep 'em coming!

Jack's input into the Lowline was immense. It would probably never have happened without him.

So, who would have scooped the pot in 1960?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by dretceterini
I really don't think Sir Jack had much to do with Cooper building rear engined F1 cras; after all, they had been building rear-engined F3 cars for years.

That's probably correct... to a point...

The issue was gearbox. Whether Jack's engineering background enabled him to take the quantum leap to use the Citroen box and modify it is the real question, in this case.

Remember, however, that Jack was the first one to stick a 2-litre engine in the back of a Cooper. He built that car himself in the Cooper shop.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
.....So, who would have scooped the pot in 1960?

Ferrari... as they had done in 1959...

Unless the 1959 demolition of the Brits had galvanised the ailing Tony into a full-bore revival. Or Aston Martin had come good.

[Roger Clark]

1957 - Colin Chapman, unemcumbered by fears of being accused of copying Cooper, introduces rear-engined Lotus 12.

1961 - unknown wins Syracuse Grand Prix, drivng Ralt-Clisby. Enzo Ferrari retires to monastry.

[Barry Boor]

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Barry Boor

You can laugh!

The Clisby project only started in 1961... it was 1963 or 1964 before the engine actually ran!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
I think it more than fair to acknowledge the contribution Sir Jack made to the World Championship Coopers that extended far beyond his driving abilities. It is difficult for me to think of one without the other.

I have always wondered (another what-if) whether Jack would have stayed with Cooper if Charles had made him a partner. The answer to that question creates a string of possiblities of the future shape of F1.

Interesting - for me that leads to an alternative history with Cooper run by Jack/John/Charlie and with Jack/Bruce driving, then after Charlie's death Jack/John running the show, perhaps Jack/Bruce after John's accident, maybe with Ron coming over a couple of years later.....

I wonder how long a Jack/Bruce/Ron team would've survived? When might Jack have retired from driving to run the team (Late 60s?) - Jack running a largely-Brabham team with Denny and Bruce driving?

Now, does the Bruce and Denny show still happen over in Can-Am, with the "careful" Jack at the helm, or do Brabham and McLaren go their own ways over this in the later 60s? Does Bruce concentrate on Can-Am and sports car racing instead of F1, while Jack concentrates on the Honda relationship? Does that lead to a split giving a McLaren and Brabham pretty much like the ones in the "real world" by the later 60s?

A few other interesting questions though, how do Herd and Coppuck get into F1? Does Rindt get a chance at Cooper, or does he remain the "King of F2" and go straight to Lotus later in the 60s?

[D-Type]

This simple question raises myriad issues so let’s first set some ground rules. I am a believer in the ‘inevitability of history’ theory rather than ‘chaos theory’ so I will work from the premise that events outside the immediate influence of Sir Jack would have happened anyway.

For example:
Cooper had produced the Bobtail before Jack arrived on the scene so it existed in the alternative world. However, the Bristol-engined Bobtail was entirely Brabham’s idea so it wouldn’t have happened. However this is really a footnote to history as it was hardly successful and nobody followed it up (I have never heard of the idea of a Godiva-engined Cooper for example)
The 1.5 litre Formula 2 would have happened. Cooper would have developed the Bobtail into the T41.
It was Roy Salvadori rather than Sir Jack who first suggested a 2-litre Climax, so the 2-litre GP car would have happened anyway.
The 1958 switch to Avgas and shorter races for the World Championship was an FIA decision which the Brabham/Cooper performance did not influence.
Repco would have been building the Climax FPF under licence for Tasman racing anyway.
The 1961 1.5 litre formula was primarily a reaction to the death toll in 1958 and earlier so can also be considered as inevitable.
Similarly the 1966 ‘return to power’ can be considered inevitable.
Ford involvement in international racing with the DFV, and probably the GT40, can be considered inevitable.
The British manufacturers would still have been caught on the hop without suitable engines both in 1961 and 1966.

What is less certain is that without Brabham’s early successes in 1957 GP’s, whether Climax would have gone on to produce the 2.2 litre and 2.5 litre engines. It might well have happened but probably later.
Would Bruce McLaren and Ron Tauranac have travelled to Britain anyway?

Now let us think about Jack Brabham’s influence on our world:
1. He was a top line Grand Prix driver;
2. He was an excellent development driver both for Cooper and later for his own Brabham team;
3. He was a good race car engineer and made many suggestions to car designers including Owen Maddocks and Ron Tauranac;
4. As a racing car manufacturer from 1962 onward, including persuading Repco to develop the 620 engine.

So here is my revised potted history:

In Australia Jack Brabham continues to develop the Redex Special Cooper-Bristol. Eventually he replaces it with one of the unwieldy and unloved ex Peter Whitehead 3.5 litre Squalo Ferraris. With the help of Ron Tauranac he turns the car into a race winner and continues to dominate the Ausralian/New Zealand racing scene until the rear-engined cars from Europe take over and he reluctantly purchases a Cooper. He retires to become a footnote in history whose name is always quoted by antipodean TNF members on “Who’s the best driver never to …” threads. He always wonders whether he should have gone to race in Europe and encourages his sons to race. Inspired by the success of Alan Jones, his son, Geoff, makes the journey to Europe and has some legendary races with Prost, Mansell, Senna etc driving Cooper, Lotus, McLaren, and Ralt cars.

1955 - Cooper produce an experimental Bristol-engined Bobtail sports car, the T40, which proves unsuccessful. The chassis ends up being cut down and used as an engine test rig.
1956 - In anticipation of the forthcoming 1500cc Formula 2, Cooper introduce the Climax FWB engined T41. Driven by Roy Salvadori, Tony Brooks and others, the car’s success leads to several customer orders.
1957 - The Formula 2 Cooper proves highly successful. Roy Salvadori suggests to John Cooper and Rob Walker that with a bigger engine it could compete with the Formula 1 cars on tight circuits. A 2 litre T45 makes its debut at Monaco driven by Les Leston and finishes in a distant sixth place. The car appears sporadically in non-champioship races.
1958 - Cooper miss the opening Argentine GP and Salvadori pilots the car to third in the British GP. Mike Hawthorn and Ferrari take the drivers’ and manufacturers’ championship from Moss and Vanwall.
1959 - Fed up with playing second fiddle to Moss at Vanwall, Tony Brooks joins Ferrari. Despite his heart attack Tony Vandervell carries on with a lower key Vanwall operation with Moss and Lewis-Evans as team drivers. Moss and Vanwall finally win the world championship and Vanwall withdraw. Lotus and Cooper start the season with 2.2 litre engines and get their 2.5 litre engines in mid-season. The fragile Lotus and the poorly handling Cooper harry the ‘big’ BRM, Vanwall and Ferrari unmercifully.
1960 - Bruce Mclaren scores Cooper’s first GP wins at Monaco and Zandvoort. Tony Brooks in the Ferrari takes the championship from Moss in a Walker Cooper. The successes of Moss, Salvadori and Bruce McLaren give Cooper the manufacturers’ championship. Lotus introduce the rear-engined 18 in Fomula 2 and Formula Junior and persevere with the front-engined Lotus 16 in Formula 1.
1961 - Brooks in the Lotus 16-like Dino 156 Ferrari wins his second championship from Moss in Walker Cooper and Lotus, and Bruce McLaren in the Cooper. Innes Ireland debuts the Climax V8 in Italy and achieves Lotus’s first GP win at Watkins Glen. Brooks retires
1962 - Graham Hill in a V8 BRM wins the championship in a 3-way fight with Phil Hill’s rear engined Ferrari and Jim Clark’s V8 Lotus-Climax. Bruce McLaren’s Cooper is fourth.
1963 - Clark and the Lotus 25 dominate. Roy Salvadori retires and becomes Cooper team manager.
1964 sees John Surtees in the Ferrari 158 take the championship. Bruce Mclaren persuades Ron tauranac to join Cooper as designer succeeding Owen Maddocks.
1965 sees Cooper back in the winning ways but Jim Clark’s Lotus 25 takes the championship.
In 1966 most of the British teams are caught without a 3litre engine when Coventry Climax withdraw. Due to the persuasive powers of ron tauranac’s Ausralian friend Jack Brabham the Australian Repco company provide Cooper with the Buick-based V8 Type 620 engine. Bruce Mclaren uses it to win the championship. Cooper are unsuccessful in the new Can-Am championship with their Ford-engined car based on the ‘Monaco’ sports car. Graham Hill wins Indianapolis in a Cooper-Ford under disputed circumstances which he resolves with his legendary statement “No way, I’ve drunk the milk”
In 1967 Denny Hulme in a Cooper-Repco takes the world championship while Bruce McLaren wins the Can-Am championship in the Cooper-Chevrolet
1968 sees the World championship go to Jim Clark’s Lotus-Ford Cosworth. Denny Hulme wins the Can-Am championship to score the second of Cooper’s five championships that lead to it being called the ‘Bruce and Denny show’

The 2004 Goodwood Festival of Speed sees Alan Jones in his father’s Maybach Special and Jack and his son Geoff sharing the Cooper-Bristol and Ferrari 3.8 litre Squalo Redex Specials. Interviewers have great difficulty interviewing Jack Brabham because of his deafness.

Edit: I meant 2004 FoS

[Ray Bell]

I think you can fairly say that without Brabham saying 'Yes' there would have been no Tasman Cup...

And D-Type, David McKinney has already written McLaren, Hulme (and, by extension, Amon) out of European competition quite reasonably.

[D-Type]

Ray,

Under my ground rules, as Jack Brabham had no direct influence on it the New Zealand 'Driver to Europe' scheme would still have occurred.
Whether there was a Tasman Cup with formal rules or not, the annual migration of men and machinery to the sun would still have continued for a while.

In my fantasy, Bruce McLaren and Denny Hulme bought Coopers or other competitive cars from one of the other competitors who took Coopers, Connaughts, Maseratis, Listers, Tojeiros, Ferraris, etc out to the Australia/New Zealand winter series and sold them there. I assumed that Bruce McLaren would have naturally gravitated towards Cooper, whether Jack Brabham was there or not and that Denny Hulme in turn would have ended up at Cooper rather than Brabham if fellow Kiwi Bruce McLaren were still there.

I have followed common usage and retrospectively used the term 'Tasman Series' for earlier races as well as for the 1964-69 and 1970-75 Tasman Cup series of races.

[Ray Bell]

I stand by what I said... without Brabham in Europe there would have been a lot of things that would either have been delayed by several years or simply not happen at all in Australia.

Warwick Farm wouldn't have happened, for instance. Probably not Sandown Park either...

[D-Type]

I don't know enough about the Australian racing scene to comment.

We do seem to agree on is that some things that were inevitably going to happen might have happened later without the Brabham stimulus.

[Barry Boor]

D-type, I'm beginning to think that you have FAR too much time on your hands.

Have you ever tried slot-racing!

[eldougo]

eldougo 06-Sep-04
As i said in the 1st post.


I guess Barry we would all be a lot poorer for not having this great man and his cars around to see ,to work on and to drive, and it sure would have taken manymore years for Australians to come to love F1 and have it it our lifes.

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by D-Type

Inspired by the success of Alan Jones, his son, Geoff, makes the journey to Europe and has some legendary races with Prost, Mansell, Senna etc driving Cooper, Lotus, McLaren, and Ralt cars.

The 2004 Goodwood Festival of Speed sees Alan Jones in his father’s Maybach Special and Jack and his son Geoff sharing the Cooper-Bristol and Ferrari 3.8 litre Squalo Redex Specials. Interviewers have great difficulty interviewing Jack Brabham because of his deafness.

Edit: I meant 2004 FoS

As it'appens, I met Geoff Brabham for the first time today.

He's in NZ for a BMW driver training day at Pukekohe tomorrow.

Nice bloke.

It's been a week of meeting Aussie greats. Last weekend at Eastern Creek there was Niel Allen, John Goss, John McCormick, Vern Schuppan and Warwick Brown.

[Doug Nye]

Apart from all else cited above, Jack Brabham was a formidable RACER - no holds barred, as the speakers at Goodwood (Salvadori, Stewart, Moss for example) went to considerable lengths to illustrate.

But he drew his team on with him. Ron Tauranac recently had a laugh about "...some of the strokes we used to pull" declaring at one stage "...you hear all this stuff about what Schumacher and Ferrari get up to, but it's been kid's stuff compared to some of the strokes that were pulled...".

For example - the Repco V8 engine in 1966 scavenged its oil very poorly from the bottom end which tended to flood, overwhelming the dry-sump scavenge system. In the 1966 Dutch GP for example an auxiliary pump system was piped-up which Jack would be reminded to switch on for brief periods every few laps to return accumulated oil from the bottom end of the engine to the system. You might have seen photographs of Jack's mechanics displaying the 'PUMP' sign?

Ron: "In the heat of action Jack tended to need a reminder to switch on the pump so at one stage every three or four laps we were showing him the 'Pump' sign. Then into the race Jimmy Clark closed right up on his tail and was putting him under real pressure in the Lotus. A thought occurred to me, and I told our bloke not to show the 'Pump' sign. Jack's flooded engine began to breathe heavily - sure enough, in a couple of laps Jimmy had dropped back 30-40 yards. You could see him wiping his goggles past the pits.

"Then we put out the 'Pump' sign again - and Jack was already away before Jimmy developed other problems... ".

Salvadori reminded us of Moss remarking "Isn't it amazing Jack's so quick considering all that ballast he carries".

"What ballast is that Stirl?"

"All those pebbles and rocks he throws at us every lap...".

Jack - all innocent, utterly guileless smiles and charm - "Aah yeah - you gotta make 'em work for it...".

Have no doubts - Sir Jack was a fearsome competitor, and as Moss insists "You cannot believe how such a nice bloke out of a car could grow such horns and a tail inside one...".

That's a split-personality attribute which few other great racing drivers have ever displayed to such an effective degree. In other words most of the tough guys on track have also been nasty bastards off it... That is absolutely not Brabham...nor ever was.

DCN

[Vicuna]

Beautiful

[Macca]

posted by DCN

Ron: "In the heat of action Jack tended to need a reminder to switch on the pump so at one stage every three or four laps we were showing him the 'Pump' sign. Then into the race Jimmy Clark closed right up on his tail and was putting him under real pressure in the Lotus. A thought occurred to me, and I told our bloke not to show the 'Pump' sign. Jack's flooded engine began to breathe heavily - sure enough, in a couple of laps Jimmy had dropped back 30-40 yards. You could see him wiping his goggles past the pits.

And there's Jack in his 1966 'Motor Racing' column saying how oily the Zandvoort track was........

Double bluff?





Paul M

[Dennis Hockenbury]

In my very humble opinion, there are many in the history of F1 that have made significant contributions to the sport in many areas, but there are but a comparative few that fundamentally altered the landscape of F1 through their participation and presence.

Sir Jack Brabham is in my view, wholly in the latter category.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
".....Jack tended to need a reminder to switch on the pump so at one stage every three or four laps we were showing him the 'Pump' sign. Then into the race Jimmy Clark closed right up on his tail and was putting him under real pressure in the Lotus. A thought occurred to me, and I told our bloke not to show the 'Pump' sign. Jack's flooded engine began to breathe heavily - sure enough, in a couple of laps Jimmy had dropped back 30-40 yards. You could see him wiping his goggles past the pits.

"Then we put out the 'Pump' sign again - and Jack was already away before Jimmy developed other problems... "

Missed this before... but I'm sure glad I caught it this time...

Thanks Doug.

[T54]

All I know is that if Jack had declined the offer, I would be sitting on a hell of a boat anchor by now!

I also would have missed his friendship which I value highly.

I also would never have met DCN and that alone would have been a great loss.

So I am really please that Jack said "yes". He was my hero then, he is my hero now.

T54

[Wolf]

Actually, the first rear engined car in F1 was way before Black Jack's time- 'Arry Schell in '50 Monaco GP (ISTR it should've been Moss, but he had already left)...

And Denny Hulme was Australian- I have "Grand Prix" poster to prove it (along with Bonnier being Swiss, and few other relatively unknown facts).

[JBE]

To Wolf: Denny Hulme was a New Zealander which is not quite the same as Australian - similar flags but not quite the same!

I agree with T54, Black Jack is great; the more I learn about him, the more admiration I have.

[GPLEagle]

If we then put the clocks forward a few years, BCE wouldn't have been able to buy the Brabham team...

[Doug Nye]

I have just re-read this thread with great amusement. Thanks Barry for creating it. But let's just be glad that Jack DID think that heading north was A Good Idea, 'cos he and his sparring partners certainly kept a lot of us most enthrallingly entrapped for many a long year...

DCN

[JBE]

I am hoping this is a good place to post regarding Sir Jack Brabham. We are modifying our website (as above) to incorporate the stories of people and their interest in Sir Jack - it might be comments or anecdotes about him, various races or circuits, his cars or photos and so on or whatever you feel can provide an interesting story. Your photos and comments will be fully referenced on the site and it will be a repository on his career - apart from what has been written on this site.

It is quite remarkable when I read some of these posts from "walking encyclopedias" on motor racing. I have a photographic memory on hairstyles and shoes but cars either come in two or four doors; sometimes none at all!

Please email via the PM and Happy New Year!