67 replies to this topic

[Nanni Dietrich]

In an other topic (Postcards) there is a picture of Arturo at the Targa 1973 in a 312PBoxer.
What a great race!

Merzario won that race and his co-driver was the greatest italian rallyman: Sandro Munari.

At the time Munari was one of the best drivers of the World Rally Championship, he had just won the Montecarlo (1972) in a Lancia Fulvia HF 1600. During his career he was also a good sportcars driver, but only in particular races, open roads like Mugello, Targa Florio or Nurburgring, and only at the wheel of "small" prototypes like Lancia F&M barchetta, Lancia Zagato, one or two races in a Fiat-Abarth 2000 Sport. Surely he didn't drive before a great 3 liters sportcar like a Ferrari 312P-B (the same engine of the 312B F. 1 ).
When he signed on Ferrari for the Targa (and then he ran also at the Zeltweg 1000 km), he wasn't afraid to drive a monster like the 312P-B, but tasted his ability in the race: he won the Targa (perhaps Merzario drove at his best, and Munari was conservative ;) ). The only thing he changed for the race was... the helmet: he drove with an anonymous white helmet (with only two little red and green rows) and not with his old famous helmet with a Drake hand-painted on top (his nickname at the time in the rallies was "Drago" = drake).

Do you think it's possible imagine something similar today? For example Sebastian Loeb winner of some race at the wheel of an Audi R8, or Petter Solberg in a Bentley?

Colin McRae drove this year at Le Mans 24 Hours a Ferrari 550 Maranello, and drove well.
But it's not the same thing, in my opinion...

[Herbert]

There is good example for the switch in the other direction. DTM-leader Mattias Ekstrom drove a Group N-Mitsubishi Lancer in this years Swedish Rally. He won the class and finished 12th overall.

Walter Röhrl also drove on Circuits. He won a round of the World Sportscar Championship

with a Lancia Beta Monte Carlo. I think it was Brands Hatch in 1980. He also won races with Audi in the Trans-Am-Series in 1988, in IMSA-GTO in 1989 and the DTM in 1990.
His last race by the way was in Le Mans in 1993 where he drove a Porsche 911 Turbo S LM. During his spell with Lancia he proved to be as fast as team mate Riccardo Patrese. And at Audi he often beat team mates like Hans Stuck or Hurley Haywood, all successfull sportscar veterans.

[ian senior]

Seem to remember a bloke called Vic Elford making a reasonable transition from rallying to racing (F1 included).

[Pedro 917]

Originally posted by ian senior :
Seem to remember a bloke called Vic Elford making a reasonable transition from rallying to racing (F1 included).

You can read all of Vic's adventures here
It's sad that he never got a good car in F1.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich

Do you think it's possible imagine something similar today? For example Sebastian Loeb winner of some race at the wheel of an Audi R8, or Petter Solberg in a Bentley?

Yes Herbert, it's good to remember the World Rally Champion Walther Röhrl, who later drove for Audi in the IMSA/GTO series, the Trans Am Series and the German Touring car Championship (DTM). He was under contract for Audi from 1984 -1993.

He also drove for Porsche in Le Mans (924 GTS) in 1981 IIRC.

[Nanni Dietrich]

You can read all of Vic's adventures also here:
http://forums.atlasf...?threadid=66137

;)


Please, friends: I wrote "Do you think it's possible imagine something similar TODAY?

[SEdward]

Loeb's performances in asphalt events lead me to believe that he would be a damn good circuit racer.

Edward.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Mattias Ekström actually started his career in the forests.

Race driver Jorge de Bagration also did well rallying a Stratos in the Spanish series.

One-time GP driver Stephane Sarrazin drove a Impreza on the German round of this years WRC.

I believe Carlos Sainz also started out as a circuit racer.

Björn Waldegård did both Le Mans and Targa Florio as well as his rallying.

[bill moffat]

Excitable rallycross driver Martin Schanche had a few WRC/Le Mans outings in an Argo Zakspeed, presumably his driving was a bit more disciplined when on all tarmac surfaces...

I presume it was the Zakspeed connection that allowed his transition, does anyone have the full story ?

From a different era John Gott also springs to mind.

[Mischa Bijenhof]

I believe Pedro Chaves does quite well in rallying these days. Although his Formule 1-campaign was a disaster, he did manage to win the British F2-title, so he was at least a capable driver on the track.

[wibblywobbly]

Seems to me, I remember a certain fella going by the name of Colin McRae, testing a Jordan GP car, just a few years ago. And looky what he did at LeMans, last year! Not bad.

[SEdward]

And looky what he did at LeMans, last year! Not bad.

This year matey, this year...

Edward

[FLB]

Jean Ragnotti also had a few circuit outings. He drove for Renault and Rondeau at Le Mans and later turned into a very fine touring car driver in France. I also seem to recall that American John Buffum had circuit outings. Canadian rallyman Jean-Marc Alcaraz currently runs in the Quebec championship for touring cars.

The reverse (a circuit driver turning to rallying) also happens from time to time. René Metge and Jacky Ickx have both won the Paris-Dakar rally. Alain Prost had a try at the Rallye du Var in 1982 (1983?) driving a Renault 5 Turbo. Carlos Reutemann drove a Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 in Argentina in 1985 (1986?). Erik Comas drove a Mitsubishi Lancer in the Rallye de Charlevoix (Quebec) in 2000.

[BRG]

Not very recent, but IIRC Stig Blomqvist (my personal all-time no 1 rally driver) raced in F3.

Rainer mentioned Stephane Sarrazin on Rallye Deutschland this year. In fact, this was a really impressive achievement. He has made a superb transition from track to stage, and scored WRC points, in a privateer car, on his WRC debut and on only his 8th ever rally start. Not many could manage that, even if they have specialised in rallying all their careers, let alone someone who crossed over from the track.

In the other direction, the big names are, as others have mentioned, Elford, Munari and Rohrl. But McRae may yet join this illistrious trio, if his excellent start this year is a pointer. Mind you, I would still prefer to see him flat out on a gravel road!

[Rainer Nyberg]

Yes, Stig raced a Formula 3 in 1971. Stig also raced in the Swedish Touring Car Championship in the early 1990s, actually became the champion in 1990 with a Ford Sierra RS Cosworth. He was also seen in the BTCC during the same period.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Apart from McRae several French tarmac rally specialists has been seen at Le Mans.

Some notable drivers are Guy Frequelin (five times between 1977-1982) and Jean-Claude Andruet (19 times between 1967-1989).

BRG, btw Stig is no 1 on my list of fav rally drivers too...

[Fred Gallagher]

Bjorn Waldegard drove the Gulf Porsche 908/3 at the Targa which can't have been easy. He told me he was right on the pace although I've never checked it.

A few other oddities: Henri Toivonen in the Rothmans 956 at the end of 1983, although I think he struggled. Henri's dad Pauli drove a factory Alpine at Le Mans and brother Harri, who at least started out as a rally driver, drove various cars through the late 80s and early 90s there IIRC. Then Simo Lampinen drove the factory Triumph Spitfire at Le Mans. And Rauno Aaltonen did some races in a Midget while Paddy Hopkirk had a couple of impressive outings at Le Mans in a factory MGB.

And didn't Roger Clark drive a Broadspeed Escort at the Nurburgring, although I suppose an Escort isn't much of a sportscar...

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by FLB
The reverse (a circuit driver turning to rallying) also happens from time to time. René Metge and Jacky Ickx have both won the Paris-Dakar rally. Alain Prost had a try at the Rallye du Var in 1982 (1983?) driving a Renault 5 Turbo. Carlos Reutemann drove a Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 in Argentina in 1985 (1986?). Erik Comas drove a Mitsubishi Lancer in the Rallye de Charlevoix (Quebec) in 2000. [/B]

..and I was privileged enough to sit on a wet Welsh hill top and watch Tom Pryce becoming accustomed to the Chequered Flag Stratos..naturally he was mighty impressive.

[Doug Nye]

...no mention yet of Gerard Larrousse????

...nor of Jean Rolland????

DCN

[wibblywobbly]

Originally posted by SEdward


This year matey, this year...

Edward

Sorry, there's something about being at work and dreaming about Watkins Glen, tommorrow, that makes my brain go a little askew...ok, a LOT askew!

[Twin Window]

Eliseo Salazar is a former national rally champion, and is back competing in rallies again this season.

Twinny

(I stuck to the present so Nanni won't get angry with me! )

[dmj]

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
Do you think it's possible imagine something similar today? For example Sebastian Loeb winner of some race at the wheel of an Audi R8, or Petter Solberg in a Bentley?

Colin McRae drove this year at Le Mans 24 Hours a Ferrari 550 Maranello, and drove well.
But it's not the same thing, in my opinion...

Actually yes, especially for Loeb, I could easily imagine him becoming an excellent circuit driver. Of course, in a certain way rally drivers of today are in worse position than ones of 30 years ago: long, open circuits where competitors were driving against the clock (not starting all together at the same time) are gone and those certainly weren't too unsimilar to some tarmac rally stages. On the other hand, sheer competiveness of rallying nowadays probably is making them more suitable to switch to today's circuit racing, as both sports are demanding non-stop sprint 100% of time nowadays... which wasn't always the case.

And McRae's result in Le Mans, if not the same thing, isn't too unsimilar. What we have to be sure is that really best rally drivers at any time were and are capable of making excellent results in most other kinds of car racing. If we'd be able to organize a race between, let's say, Munari and Lauda in 1975, or Loeb and Schumacher today, in equal cars, on Targa Florio circuit, I'd put my money on Munari and Loeb. But it wouldn't be true for long, actually - if races would be repeated I'd presume F1 drivers would eventually come on top, after some time, after knowing the circuit more thoroughly and being able to fine tune their cars to suit the circuit (one thing where F1 drivers, at least two mentioned, are almost sure more highly skilled).

[dmj]

...Of course, I've chosen Targa Florio as venue for that imaginary race, being somekind of "cross" between circuit racing and rallying, even counting for both championships, not at the same time, admittedly. (And not being entirelly the same as a race and rally, of course...)

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
...no mention yet of Gerard Larrousse????

DCN

Gerard L is a very obvious choice and his versatility is proven by his pioneering efforts at Renault Sport and his work as an eponymous Constructor.

Henri Pescarolo started his career (whilst still a medical student) navigating for his old man in rallies, so arguably the 1973 Le Mans race was unique in that it was won by a duo of ex-rallyists.

As an aside the entry list for Le Mans in 1973 included a non-arrival..Roger Clark in a Chevron B23..not Albert surely ?

[FLB]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
...no mention yet of Gerard Larrousse????

...nor of Jean Rolland????

DCN

Let's not forget Louis Chiron either...

[TFBundy]

Or Hannu Mikkola in a Porsche 911 in British Saloon Car races circa 1968.

[Ian McKean]

[i]
BRG, btw Stig is no 1 on my list of fav rally drivers too... [/B]

... and mine!

[D-Type]

And of course Stirling Moss was second in the Monte and won a Coupe d'or in the Alpine Rally for three consecutive clean sheets.

I always feel that rally drivers never get their due in any of the '10 best' type lists. Despite the help of a navigator and pace notes, they are essentially driving over roads theydon't know and that takes skill.

I read somewhere that Enzo Ferrari had a picture of Munari in the Targa on his office wall. Respect indeed!

[stuartbrs]

Whenever I`ve watched those driver/car swap things, such as the McRae Jordan drive a few years back, Ive always thought the rally drivers should have done better... the GP drivers seem to do better in the Rally cars than the Rally drivers do in the GP cars... although half an hour in a GP car obviously isnt really enough time to adjust.

Theres been quite a few Rally drivers participate at Bathurst over the years...Bates being the most recent?

And of course Jean Alesi wasnt afraid to jump into a Rally car ( even during his GP career ).

[GeoffR]

In Australia - Colin Bond!!!
Three time ARC champion, Bathurst winner etc.
Also had a drive in a Matich(?) F5000 at one stage.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Fred Gallagher
A few other oddities: Henri Toivonen in the Rothmans 956 at the end of 1983, although I think he struggled.

He had some British F3 rides as well around this time, IIRC.

[Fred Gallagher]

Originally posted by ensign14
He had some British F3 rides as well around this time, IIRC.

He did the final (?) round at Thruxton in 1982 with Eddie Jordan. The day before he competed in a Formula Libre race at Silverstone and IIRC was second to Will Hoy in a Clubmans car. I remember it because I was dispatched off to the RAC in Belgrave Square to trade in his Finnish licence for a British one! I still have the cancelled Finnish one somewhere.

He then did the same Thruxton meeting in 1983 which IIRC was won by Senna. Henri and I were going through a rather painful Rothmans induced divorce by this point so I missed it.

BTW, Denny Hulme was entered in a Triumph 2000 for the Foot & Mouth cancelled RAC........

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by dmj


Actually yes, especially for Loeb, I could easily imagine him becoming an excellent circuit driver. Of course, in a certain way rally drivers of today are in worse position than ones of 30 years ago: long, open circuits where competitors were driving against the clock (not starting all together at the same time) are gone and those certainly weren't too unsimilar to some tarmac rally stages. On the other hand, sheer competiveness of rallying nowadays probably is making them more suitable to switch to today's circuit racing, as both sports are demanding non-stop sprint 100% of time nowadays... which wasn't always the case.

And McRae's result in Le Mans, if not the same thing, isn't too unsimilar. What we have to be sure is that really best rally drivers at any time were and are capable of making excellent results in most other kinds of car racing. If we'd be able to organize a race between, let's say, Munari and Lauda in 1975, or Loeb and Schumacher today, in equal cars, on Targa Florio circuit, I'd put my money on Munari and Loeb. But it wouldn't be true for long, actually - if races would be repeated I'd presume F1 drivers would eventually come on top, after some time, after knowing the circuit more thoroughly and being able to fine tune their cars to suit the circuit (one thing where F1 drivers, at least two mentioned, are almost sure more highly skilled).

All right, dmj!

I think the most important difference between rally and circuit drivers is the battle wheel against wheel: in rally stages they drive alone (and with a navigator who "announces" the curves...) but in circuit races they have twenty fighters all around! Rally-drivers have to learn racing in the scrum, duels, overtaking...
I think similar things happen in other sports: for example in cycling, between road and mountain bikers. There are a lot of mountain-bike champions (Michael Rasmussen, Cadel Evans, Dario David Cioni, Miguel Martinez etc.) that run the Tour de France or the Giro d'Italia and have good results. The other way, from roads to corss-country doesn't happen, road-cyclists have too many problems on the gravel, on the mud or on the stony grond.

[Twin Window]

I don't think anyone's mentioned Marc Duez yet.

And BTW, I didn't mention that Salazar was a rally driver (and champion) before he went circuit racing. Given his F1, F3, F3000, CART, IRL, IMSA and GpC experience, he must be one of the most widely experienced of all 'modern' drivers. He turned down a NASCAR drive (Quaker State, IIRC) in the mid-'90s too!

Twinny

[BRG]

Yes, we should have mentioned Marc Duez, although he actually started in F.Ford before turning his hand to rallying.

And I like to think that I played a small part in the decision to try rallying as I and my regular RAC Rally spectating crew met him in a little hotel (the Brigands Inn at Mallwyd) one year. We took him, and a couple of other Belgians under our wing and led them deep into Dyfi forest to a suitable viewpoint. The following Febraury, Marc shook the Belgian rally community by hiring a Toyota Celica and nearly winning the Boucles de Spa rally. Marc has been equally at home on stage and track ever since although he was more a rallyist during the 1980s and more a racer since then.

Twinny – I never knew about Salazar (TNF strikes again!) but I see from his CV that he was Chilean Rally Hillcimb Champion. This sounds more of a speed-event based series – unless it was on dirt roads? Can you tell us any more about his rally history?

[Nordic]

Win Percy was an autocross champ my hazy memory tells me.

Matti Alamaki former rally x er now races in gt cars.

Carlos Sainz tested the Toyota GT1 and suprised M Brundell with his pace, maybe if he retires form WRC at the end of the year he could team up with McRae at Prodrive.

Derek Warwick was a short track Stock car world champ before his circuit career started

Alex Wurx in addition to being another rally x er's son was a BMX champ.

[LB]

James Thompson tried to win BTCC and BRC last year...

beaten on Marc Duez dammit:D

Derek Warwick did the RAC one year as did Derek Bell both in Astras iirc. Didn't Martin Brundle have a go too?

James hunt did the tour of Britain which is close - with I believe Noel Edmonds as his co driver!

[TFBundy]

Originally posted by Nordic

Carlos Sainz tested the Toyota GT1 and suprised M Brundell with his pace, maybe if he retires form WRC at the end of the year he could team up with McRae at Prodrive.

Sainz of course did Formula Ford 1600 for the 1983 season in a Marlboro backed RF83.

[Haddock]

Derek Warwick did the RAC one year as did Derek Bell both in Astras iirc. Didn't Martin Brundle have a go too?

Derek Warwick did the RAC in a Subaru Legacy in 1990 and showed reasonably well as I remember - getting fairly close to the works drivers for a man who had no real previous motor racing experience. He eventually crashed out though. Derek Bell did it twice in an Astra GTE, but never really looked at home in a rally car. The first time I think he went out on the Sunday spectator stages after his car cut out and failed to restart in a watersplash. Next time round, I think he eventually finished about 30th. Martin Brundle did the RAC rally in 1996 in an Escort Cosworth and crashed out, and had another go in 1999 in a works Toyota Corolla, again crashing out, if I recall.

On the subject of racing drivers who turned their hands to rallying - didn't JIm Clark do quite well behind the wheel of a rally Lotus Cortina one year ? I can't remember the details.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Haddock

Derek Bell did it twice in an Astra GTE, but never really looked at home in a rally car...

...or taking instructions, prompting navigator Mike Nicholson's desperate "Oh, Derek..."


Twinny

[Mallory Dan]

Originally posted by bill moffat

Gerard L is a very obvious choice and his versatility is proven by his pioneering efforts at Renault Sport and his work as an eponymous Constructor.

Henri Pescarolo started his career (whilst still a medical student) navigating for his old man in rallies, so arguably the 1973 Le Mans race was unique in that it was won by a duo of ex-rallyists.

As an aside the entry list for Le Mans in 1973 included a non-arrival..Roger Clark in a Chevron B23..not Albert surely ?

Unless it was another Roger Clark.....??

[HEROS]

Lucien Bianchi and Henri Greder alternated the races in rally and in circuits.

It was another era, but for example, Lucien Bianchi could, in the same year,
make the Rally of Monte Carlo, Targa Florio, the Tour of Corsica or the Le
Mans 24 hours.

:yawn:

[Evo One]

I don't think anyone's mentioned Marc Surer yet - he was badly injured in a crash driving a Ford RS200.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Unless it was another Roger Clark.....??

I really don't know. The car was also entered in the preceding Le Mans 4 hr race by Hine enterprises (? John Hine perhaps). Mr Clark was due to be co-driven by Juncadella but it was, once again, a DNA.

"Our" Roger Clark certainly ran in the 1000K's at Brands in 1974 (a Porsche partnership with Nick Faure) so perhaps Le Mans was another elusive and unfulfilled dream. Someone out there ?

[Graham Gauld]

Has anyone mentioned Jim Clark and the RAC Rally in 1966 ?

[Frank de Jong]

Quite a few Belgian Rallye cracks took part in the Spa 24h; Gijs van Lennep, Ben Pon and Rob Slotemaker did some Monte Carlo's in the past.

[Hieronymus]

...and let us not forget the great JEAN VINATIER and his compatriot, PATRICK DEPAILLER. Also a certain JODY SCHECKTER comes to mind.

[e34fanatic]

Why on earth Leo Kinnunen isn`t mentioned!? Kinnunen drove John Wyer run Gulf liveried Porsche 917 to world championship togethor with Pedro Rorguez. Leo was originally a rally-driver. I think that he finished third in Thousand Lake rally and had great results in smaller rallies. Then he went on to drive Porsche 917 in WSC, but also in interserie. There was also an ill-fated f1-outing.

There was a one single race where he could beat Pedro and rest of the best sportscardrivers of the day. That was Targa Florio, where Leo was great!

Also I´d like to point out that Markku Alén drove prototype Lancia in few races togethor with Riccardo Paterse and Piercarlo Ghinzani.

[Vicuna]

I seem to recall Sandro Nannini being a rallye champ before turning to proper stuff

[Alan Cox]

Mention of John Gott in an earlier post (Bill Moffat) brings to mind Jack Sears who did a fair bit of rallying (Alpine etc) in his early days. Another hot prospect on the Alpine was Peter Collins, one of Moss's team-mates.