64 replies to this topic

[ViMaMo]

What is your opinion on the quality of engines of road cars. Are engines made by the Japanese the best in terms of quality and life? Popular opinion is that they are pretty good for 150,000 miles. (like Civic). While the second hand american cars are avoided because of poor quality?

So what is the best engine you have seen, with an excellent quality and life?

[red300zx99]

I've taken 2 civics over 300k and a Merc over 350k. I hear that one of the civics is still on the road, don't know about the other 2. Had to replace a radiator on a civic and 2 new mufflers because of holes, some weird dealy with the freon on the Merc other then that problem free

[Todd]

I don't know of a Chrysler slant-6 ever dying. The cars they were put in weren't glamourous enough for it to be worthwhile rebuilding the front suspension when required at 250,000 miles or so, but I did read about a cabby who had about 1 million miles on his Dodge when it was totalled in a wreck. Other than those, old style diesels with inline injection pumps, such as Mercedes, can rack up impressive mileages with decent maintenance. The same can be said for Porsche's 944 engines that receive regular timing belt changes.

[Wouter]

Mercedes diesel engines have a good reputation of longevity, IIRC. Mercedes diesel cars were/are often used as taxis, perhaps partly because of this.

[clSD139]

It's the more impressive you're all talking in miles! I heard indeed the basic diesel (indirect mechanical injection) is very reliable. If a diesel has a turbo (nearly all of them today!) it need to be replaced but it may cost less than the replacement of drum-brakes!

[indigoid]

My Volvo B23E (2.3 litre SOHC, mechanical injection) has lasted 465000km so far, and is only off the road now because some idiot cross-threaded one of the spark plugs. A replacement head ($50) is on the way, and it should then be all be rosy again. We also have a 1982 Ford Falcon with the inline-6 here that has achieved a similar distance, and even survived my flatmate's partner filling it up with diesel (!) instead of unleaded

Also, google for Irv Gordon Volvo

[30ft penguin]

There was a story about a guy who drove his 1.5l Volkswagen Golf for 933.400 km (and apparently he wants to complete the million km) : http://www.vox.de/28...1027&area=kult1

Also, Mercedes has offered "high mileage badges" for 200.000, 500.000 and 1.000.000 km for decades now (don't know whether they do it still, I only know it from the Merc 200D my grandfather drove and those pins/badges get sold on ebay a lot).

[Cociani]

I agree with Todd about the Chrysler slant 6, they are virtually indestructable. Mercedes diesels are also amazing but against all odds I drive an 85 Jaguar Soverign (XJ6) with a 4.2 litre XK fuel injected engine that has 340,000 KM and is still running strong! In reality most engines, if well maintained will runn forever, certain parts wear out, valve and valve seat wear is un-avoidable as an example. We used to rebuild Subaru engines with over 300,000KM on them that really didn't even need new bearings, just a valve grind. Don't run a Subaru out of oil and coolant though, my wife did with very expensive results...

[crono33]

i have had many cars in my life, most of them second hand and they all lasted forever, at least in the engine department.

i owned a 2nd hand bought fiat tipo turbodiesel. despite the bad reputatiuon fiat has, at 200k km i decided i wanted a new car and i stopped altogether doing any maintenance at all. any including changing oil, timing belt etc. basically i havent changed oil in 120k km, just topped it up.

i scrapped the car at 300k km just because i left the country. i remember leaving the car 9 months parked outside the office with the windows open and the battery disconnected. after 9 months i reconnected the battery and the damn thing started.

the engine was even run without oil for around 20km when one of the oil hoses blew on the motorway.

i currently have as everyday car a clio williams. bought 2nd hand it currently has 205k km. i bought a leak down tester and just for fun tested the engine. it registered only 15-20% leak on all cylinders.

never had an engine failing on me despite some massive abuse.

my guess is that any modern engine, given that there is oil and coolant, (any oil and any coolant), will do 300k km with no problems as long as it is not thrashed when cold. i always warm up a little the engine before leaving the garage, and drive slow for the first few minutes.

gm

[Viss1]

IMO make/nationality is less important than service history. A late-model Honda that's had oil changes every 20K mi. will not have the longevity of a late-model Chevy that's had oil changes every 5K.

My personal experience has been with two mid-80's American V8's and a late-90's American V6 (not the cars people usually hold up as paragons of engine longevity). The first V8 was sold at 130K mi. It produced no smoke, used very little oil, and easily passed emissions tests. The second V8 was sold at 260K. It smoked a tiny bit at startup, and used maybe a half-quart of oil every 4K mi. The V6 is my current daily driver. I had an oil analysis done recently when I hit 100K. Every component was well below average.

Today, though, it appears engine longevity is not the most important concern; a modern car's electronics will probably cause more headaches down the road. Basically, given regular oil changes, the rest of the car will fall apart around the engine.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by vivian
What is your opinion on the quality of engines of road cars. Are engines made by the Japanese the best in terms of quality and life? Popular opinion is that they are pretty good for 150,000 miles. (like Civic). While the second hand american cars are avoided because of poor quality?

So what is the best engine you have seen, with an excellent quality and life?

Times change - American cars were referred as the most durable in the 60s - early 70s, to slump badly after that, but they've recently been emerging again. According to this study, European brands overall are now behind the USA in long term quality. Japanese still have the overall top spot, but as has been seen, nothing lasts forever. Surprise your friends with this:

http://www.autodeale...Reliability.pdf

And here's the latest one, US manufacturers continue to improve:

http://www.prnewswir.../jdpower/12513/

It was already mentioned, that the service history is the most important in the engine life span. Practically every grocery getter engine will last 200-300K km, if maintained properly and the cars will usually deteriorate around the engine to the point of not-worth-to-repair, before the engine dies.

When performance is concerned, usually the most bang-for-the-buck solution for reliable horsepower is a properly prepped pushrod V8.

[Yelnats]

The 4.6 litre SOC Ford V8 has an excellenty reputation and proves it by enduring both police and taxi duty. Taxi drivers regularly buy police cars with 300km on them and drive them another 200 or 300km until they become too old to pass the age regulations many large cities in Canada have.

Hundreds of vehicles going through a hard to match combination of high speed usage and brutal stop and go traffic in weather ranging from -40c/f to 35 c/ 95F with proves to my satisfaction that these cars rank at or near the top of the the list.

I currently drive and ex police version (Intercepter) of this car and have had no problems with it but it only has 300km so it's still just a baby.

[stuartbrs]

The Porsche 928 engine is supposed to be good for 300,000 miles before needing to be opened up, obviously the timing belt needs to be changed in that period but still...

[pio!pio!]

Subaru's 4 cylinder boxer engines are supposed to be very reliable as well..

[Spunout]

IMO engine life and engine quality are different things. Of course you can expect American V6/V8 engines to have better longevity than European/Japanese 4-cyl engines. Gas is still almost free in US compared to most countries. The cars we Europeans use have to be more economical = smaller engines. As a rule (whyen speaking of road cars) smaller engines have to work much harder, for example uphill with Toyota Corolla 1.3 often means 3500 RPM & full throttle But it will consume less fuel than V8s ;)

To put it simply, lower European gas prices to US level so Merc/BMW/Volvo can manufacture V8-powered midsize cars, or increase US gas prices to European level so GM is forced to manufacture 4-cyl engines. Then we will get better answer to quality question...

[Monstrobolaxa]

I know a guy who has a Golf and it's needing a engine rebuild after 600k! Still has the original clutch and shocks!

[Ray Bell]

But are the shocks any good?

My Peugeot 504 engine has been rebuilt three times in approximately 1,000,000kms... the last time after a valve head fell into the works (at about 700,000kms).

The previous owner maintained it fastidiously and without any regard to cost, so probably both the first two rebuilds were done before real wear was shown... I do similar types of mileage (on the highway all the time, very long runs) and at 300,000kms after my rebuild we changed the head (a valve seat eaten away by unleaded petrol... that model head wasn't made for unleaded) and found the cylinder liners were perfect.

I feel confident that this set of pistons and liners will do another 200,000kms. Let you know in a couple of years...

But there is nothing in that engine apart from the block and main bearing caps that came with the car... when I did my rebuild I had to change the head (it was damaged by the valve), the crank was worn and it was easier to fit another used one than grind the original, the cam had to be changed because I went to fuel injection, ditto the cam sprockets, the followers were showing pitting, I wanted to use the later model alloy sump and so it went on. The block remains because it has the engine number that matches the chassis number.

Late model Japanese engines, by the way, seem to have a great deal of longevity (sp?)... the likes of the Camry engine seem to go on more or less forever.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Spunout
IMO engine life and engine quality are different things. Of course you can expect American V6/V8 engines to have better longevity than European/Japanese 4-cyl engines. Gas is still almost free in US compared to most countries. The cars we Europeans use have to be more economical = smaller engines. As a rule (whyen speaking of road cars) smaller engines have to work much harder, for example uphill with Toyota Corolla 1.3 often means 3500 RPM & full throttle But it will consume less fuel than V8s ;)

To put it simply, lower European gas prices to US level so Merc/BMW/Volvo can manufacture V8-powered midsize cars, or increase US gas prices to European level so GM is forced to manufacture 4-cyl engines. Then we will get better answer to quality question...

Take a peek at the surveys I posted earlier in this thread - that gives a hint.

And against the traditional European perception, the vast majority of the passenger cars in the US are 4- or 6-cyl. Mercedes and BMW already manufacture V8 cars regarded as "mid-size".

[Monstrobolaxa]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
But are the shocks any good?

Well the owner is a mechanic....so if they had a problem I think he would have already changed them....he has quite a few BMWs (3) but for long trips he still prefers the GOlf...wierd guy!

[soubriquet]

It doesn't surprise me. I had the choice between an Accord and a 328 for a long trip in Canada. I had no hesitation choosing the Accord, because the BMW tramlined like buggery and needed constant correction. Seems your friend is more concerned about the car, than the badge.

Cheers
S

[Kaiser]

my 1977 MB 300d is a low mileage runner, but after 300k miles she's still good as new, except for a few leaks here and there, but that's only an issue if she stops leaking.

[Yelnats]

Originally posted by soubriquet
It doesn't surprise me. I had the choice between an Accord and a 328 for a long trip in Canada. I had no hesitation choosing the Accord, because the BMW tramlined like buggery and needed constant correction. Seems your friend is more concerned about the car, than the badge.

Cheers
S

What makes you think we have trams in Canada?

[mclarenlife]

Honda's breed of V-tech's - Jeremy Clarkson

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by mclarenlife
Honda's breed of V-tech's - Jeremy Clarkson

I would call Jeremy Clarkson as reputable source regarding auto industry, just as much as I would call an individual that's pro- Ku Klux Klan, a reputable source regarding genetics and behaviour.

Regardless of Clarkson though, Honda makes some great engines. But it's V-tec, not V-tech.

[Garagiste]

Here's a strong contender: http://www.ananova.c...sm_1111264.html
Makes the 168,000 miles my XJ40 has done seem a bit paltry in comparison.

[Taxi]

toyotas.... large large km....

[Jhope]

Originally posted by Monstrobolaxa
I know a guy who has a Golf and it's needing a engine rebuild after 600k! Still has the original clutch and shocks!

I can testify! Everything on my car is crap, but the engine is still brilliant.

[schuy]

I know of Skoda taxi-cabs doing over 500k Miles with the same (TD) engine...

[kober]

I've recently read about some Greek who sold his Mercedes cab from seventies back to Mercedes with 4,6 million kilometers, with three engines...

[Christiaan]

I had a 1992 BMW, or was it an 89??? Anyway, I gave it to frend of mine with 392,000 km on the track. This car has never had an overhaul (to the best of my knowledge) and the motor has still got as much grunt as my friend's Golf4 GTi

[Todd]

Originally posted by kober
I've recently read about some Greek who sold his Mercedes cab from seventies back to Mercedes with 4,6 million kilometers, with three engines...

I saw that in the news. It was a 240D, somewhere between a '74 and a '76. Even if you only get 900,000 miles out of an engine, it is still pretty impressive. Especially when you consider that this was a 62 hp engine hauling a pretty big car. I had one just like it. I blew up the transmission after one day.

[Garagiste]

The Greek cab is the link I posted above.

[xflow7]

I think it's true that most engines these days will lead very long lives w/ regular oil changes/timing belts and such.

Weird stuff can still cause tears, though. I got to put a new motor in my '97 BMW 318 at 107,000mi because a butterfly valve in the intake manifold that switches between the two intake runner lengths came apart and went through 2 cylinders. One of those things, I guess...

[Lazarus II]

Originally posted by Todd
I don't know of a Chrysler slant-6 ever dying. The cars they were put in weren't glamourous enough for it to be worthwhile rebuilding the front suspension when required at 250,000 miles or so, but I did read about a cabby who had about 1 million miles on his Dodge when it was totalled in a wreck. Other than those, old style diesels with inline injection pumps, such as Mercedes, can rack up impressive mileages with decent maintenance. The same can be said for Porsche's 944 engines that receive regular timing belt changes.

True story about a slant-6 - swear it to be true.
A drunkerd friend of mine asked me to help him change his oil (he was also inept as well) in his '68 Dodge Dart Slant-6. Of course I said yes. We begin the oil change and I remove the drain plug................3 drops of oil came out....3. I asked him if the car was running good. He had just picked me up in it from the airport as I was on leave from the marines at the time. He said Yes it was running fine. I asked him if he had ever checked the oil....of course NO, he only had time to drink....I was stunned and almost thought "if it ain't broke...........", but I went ahead and finished the job. That car would still be running if he didn't crash it..........which he did with everything.

[Cociani]

Originally posted by Lazarus II

True story about a slant-6 - swear it to be true.
A drunkerd friend of mine asked me to help him change his oil (he was also inept as well) in his '68 Dodge Dart Slant-6. Of course I said yes. We begin the oil change and I remove the drain plug................3 drops of oil came out....3. I asked him if the car was running good. He had just picked me up in it from the airport as I was on leave from the marines at the time. He said Yes it was running fine. I asked him if he had ever checked the oil....of course NO, he only had time to drink....I was stunned and almost thought "if it ain't broke...........", but I went ahead and finished the job. That car would still be running if he didn't crash it..........which he did with everything.

Some guys I new years ago deceided to kill the slant six in their Valient once and for all by taking it out into the woods and draining the oil and coolant and placing a big rock on the gas. They were hoping for a catastophic bang sending pistons through the air etc. The car ran at full throttle for about 20 minutes and finally stopped. The guys went to see what given way. Apon further investigation they discovered that the car had run out of fuel...

[just me again]

Maybe we should also write about bad expiences, since, apperently most engines have a long life.
Worst engine i have had was in a Nissan Micra 1,0 1993. it felt after 170000km that it could break any minute. i had to drive in it at least 1-2times a week, because if it standed still for more than that, i nedded to remove the sparkplugs to put a little bit of oil down in the cylenders. otherwise it could not build up comprension.
Now i have not had a car for some time, but are planing to buy an old Saab 900 1985-1991, anyone know something about theres engines.

Bjørn

[Todd]

Originally posted by just me again
Maybe we should also write about bad expiences, since, apperently most engines have a long life.
Worst engine i have had was in a Nissan Micra 1,0 1993. it felt after 170000km that it could break any minute. i had to drive in it at least 1-2times a week, because if it standed still for more than that, i nedded to remove the sparkplugs to put a little bit of oil down in the cylenders. otherwise it could not build up comprension.
Now i have not had a car for some time, but are planing to buy an old Saab 900 1985-1991, anyone know something about theres engines.

Bjørn

The US ones were not good. I had a number of friends who had late '80s Saabs, and they rarely drove when we went anywhere, because the cars were rarely running correctly. I worked at a Honda-Olds-Saab dealer in 1989. We sold about 50 Oldsmobiles, 45 Hondas, and 7 Saabs a month. The repair shop was split 50/50, Hondas and Oldsmobiles on one side, Saabs on the other. There was no employee purchase deal for Saabs, at least partly because nobody who saw them coming back for repair constantly would consider buying one. If you think they are neat in some way and you want a hobby, go for it. If you want a car that you can count on, I'd look for something else.

[clSD139]

it's incredible, not 460.000 km but 4.600.000. km!!! How can they be sure it's not 1.6 million or somthing??

[Chickenman]

Gotta agree...the old Chryler Slant six was danged near indestructable. Same with the Datsun " L" Series. Particularily the L16's. One engine would last through several cars.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Cociani


Some guys I new years ago deceided to kill the slant six in their Valient once and for all by taking it out into the woods and draining the oil and coolant and placing a big rock on the gas. They were hoping for a catastophic bang sending pistons through the air etc. The car ran at full throttle for about 20 minutes and finally stopped. The guys went to see what given way. Apon further investigation they discovered that the car had run out of fuel...

Urban legend. No engine will run at full throttle for 20 minutes without lubrication.

...though there are some old county fair tricks that can make it appear than an engine can run "without oil," usually to pitch some magical oil additive. To change with the times, these scams have since graduated to late night television infomercials. Same exact tricks, new venue. Phony then, phony now.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by soubriquet
It doesn't surprise me. I had the choice between an Accord and a 328 for a long trip in Canada. I had no hesitation choosing the Accord, because the BMW tramlined like buggery and needed constant correction. Seems your friend is more concerned about the car, than the badge.

Cheers
S

Then there had to be something terribly wrong with the sample you drove, for that is not a normal trait of the BMW 3-series. The comparison between the Accord and 3-series is somewhat unfair as one is FWD and the other RWD, but in terms of sporting handling characteristics and chassis refinement there is really no comparison. In my opinion the BMW is far superior in that regard, but that is not merely my opinion. In handling and steering response BMW is the industry benchmark.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Chickenman
Gotta agree...the old Chryler Slant six was danged near indestructable. Same with the Datsun " L" Series. Particularily the L16's. One engine would last through several cars.

Great, great engine...and essentially a 4-cylinder copy of the Mercedes-Benz inline six. However, I am not dissing the Japanese at all here. Old world engineering and build quality at Pacific rim manufacturing cost was one hell of an accomplishment at the time...a revolution, really.

[Cociani]

Originally posted by McGuire


Urban legend. No engine will run at full throttle for 20 minutes without lubrication.

...though there are some old county fair tricks that can make it appear than an engine can run "without oil," usually to pitch some magical oil additive. To change with the times, these scams have since graduated to late night television infomercials. Same exact tricks, new venue. Phony then, phony now.

I don't know McGuire, I had a VW bus that ran without oil for a very long time, I made it to the machine shop and only lost one piston in the process. God bless loose tolerences!

[Greg Locock]

re 3 series tramlining

I don't drive small cars, so have no direct knowledge of the 3 series vs the Accord, but I can believe that for tramlining the BMW might well have an issue.

Tramlining is feedback from the road via the tyre about the lateral and longitudinal forces (etc) at the contact patch. It is bad.

Steering feel is feedback from the road via the tyre about the lateral and longitudinal forces (etc) at the contact patch. It is good.

Reconciling steerng feel and tramlining is quite a trick. The Accord will have less steering feel than the BMW, due to extra friction in the CV joint, and probably runs narrower tyres. Steering loop friction and narrow tyres are two of the main ways of reducing tramlining.

[Todd]

Originally posted by McGuire


Urban legend. No engine will run at full throttle for 20 minutes without lubrication.

...though there are some old county fair tricks that can make it appear than an engine can run "without oil," usually to pitch some magical oil additive. To change with the times, these scams have since graduated to late night television infomercials. Same exact tricks, new venue. Phony then, phony now.

I don't know about no oil at all, but my sister routinely came home from college with less than 2 quarts in the pan of her slant-6. When my father and I tried to talk her into checking the oil, she said that all that matters about a car is that it has gas. The same treatment did not work as well for her subsequent cars. As for her old Plymouth, I drove it for a year of teenaged exuberance when she was done with it, although I made sure there was oil in the engine, and the only thing I managed to blow up was the differential. When I was done with the car, the guy that removed the stereo for me bought it. He had it for about 6 more years with the same abused engine, and it was still running fine when his wife took off in it.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
Tramlining is feedback from the road via the tyre about the lateral and longitudinal forces (etc) at the contact patch. It is bad.

Steering feel is feedback from the road via the tyre about the lateral and longitudinal forces (etc) at the contact patch. It is good.

If that is our working definition of "tramlining," the term has no diagnostic utility. Whatever does it mean, exactly? Seems to mean any steering response perceived as undesirable.

In the part of the industry I come from (Detroit, Michigan) the term "tramlining" describes a specific condition: a tendency to track parallel irregularities or striations in the road surface, producing an apparent oscillation ("squirm" or "nibble" effect) just as motorcycles may do on rain grooving or a steel bridge. I am certain that's where the auto industry got the term -- from the tire mfg'ers who also do motorcycle OE.

I am quite aware the term has taken on a much broader meaning in the aftermarket tire and wheel industry, and in the car buff magazines. There it seems to mean any adverse response to surface irregularities. To me they even use the term to describe the properties of low-aspect tires in general. I don't think the term has any meaning at all there -- it sounds technical so people throw it around. The tire and wheel aftermarket really could use one global term to sum up all the ways they screw up the ride and handling of pefectly good cars, but I wish they would find one of their own.

If a BMW 3-series "tramlines" by any reasonable definition, I can virtually gaurantee you that someone stuck the wrong tires and/or wheels on the thing. I am willing to bet money on it. I have been to this exact same party a dozen times. Beemers do not leave the factory with that condition. Regardless of their shortcomings in other areas, steering is one thing BMW knows. I drive many BMW 3-series every year and I have never seen tramlining with the OE wheels and tires.

[Todd]

Originally posted by McGuire
If a BMW 3-series "tramlines" by any reasonable definition, I can virtually gaurantee you that someone stuck the wrong tires and/or wheels on the thing. I am willing to bet money on it. I have been to this exact same party a dozen times. Beemers do not leave the factory with that condition. Regardless of their shortcomings in other areas, steering is one thing BMW knows. I drive many BMW 3-series every year and I have never seen tramlining with the OE wheels and tires.

Although you are right about the 3 series from E30 to E46, it seems that BMW is now in the process of throwing their expertise in the bin. The latest 5s and 6s with variable ratio electric steering are devoid of feel and give unpredictable responses during corrections, something you're bound to be making when your in a hurry in a car that gives no tactile feedback as it approaches the limit. The E21 was known to have various front end flaws, results of the car's pure macpherson strut suspension. Without the benefit of solid location at the base of the strut, the cars were incredibly susceptible to anything being worn, out of balance, or out of alignment. This was corrected on the E30, and BMWs had been paragons of road manners until the latest abominations were released.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Todd


Although you are right about the 3 series from E30 to E46, it seems that BMW is now in the process of throwing their expertise in the bin. The latest 5s and 6s with variable ratio electric steering are devoid of feel and give unpredictable responses during corrections, something you're bound to be making when your in a hurry in a car that gives no tactile feedback as it approaches the limit. The E21 was known to have various front end flaws, results of the car's pure macpherson strut suspension. Without the benefit of solid location at the base of the strut, the cars were incredibly susceptible to anything being worn, out of balance, or out of alignment. This was corrected on the E30, and BMWs had been paragons of road manners until the latest abominations were released.

While I welcome your comments, mine were in reference to a specific problem on a specific car: tramlining on the current 3-series. The E21 was discontinued what, over 20 years ago? I will stick to my original statement. An E46 (or the previous E36 for that matter) will not tramline with the OE wheels and tires.

In by far the vast majority of cases, tramlining is not an OE problem. The mfg'ers go to a lot of trouble with tire matching etc. to eliminate and avoid it. Then it is re-engineered into the car at the consumer end with tire, wheel, alignment and suspension changes. That's how it became the enthusiast catchphrase it is today. Tramlining is rarely found in stock production vehicles, but everyone sure knows how to say it. Interesting, no? If anyone is interested I can outline how to avoid it.

I tend to agree with you about the steering in the current 5/6 series. However, calling it an "abomination" sounds a bit shrill to me. First we have to recognize the car was deliberately pointed at the Benz end of the ride/handling spectrum. It's not a 2002; it's BMW's interpretation of an E-class. The new steering system is all about that market. Next, the variable-ratio active power steering is a new technology. It works. However, the tactile feedback end of the deal still needs development. That said, "NO tactile feedback" is an exaggeration. Until you have driven a vehicle with 100% assist (not even Chrysler in the 1960s went with that calibration, though an amusing malfunction in the pressure circuit could produce it) you might want to hold that evaluation in reserve. In "tactile feedback" in vehicle controls we are talking about something that is basically all in our minds anyway. Put the car on a racetrack with a professional driver and it has little or no real effect on lap times, within a normal range of effort/response.

All that said, I am not really a native fan of fly-by-anything. My first drive in the E55 AMG with its artificial throttle and brake responses was slightly creepy. However, it is the future, and they will fix it. There's no reason they can't, simply a matter of simulating the desired feedback response. Here is an oddball prediction: one day down the road maybe we will have a dash control allowing us to dial in "300SLR" or "McLaren F1" for the response levels. No reason it can't be done. Half of it is in calibrating the feedback, and the other half is all in our heads.

By the way, a colleague recently drove the new M5, out next spring in the EC and next fall in the US. She reports the steering is as nice as any BMW ever. (It does not use the variable-ratio system.) So perhaps your remark about expertise "thrown in the bin" could be premature.

[Todd]

Originally posted by McGuire
All that said, I am not really a native fan of fly-by-anything. My first drive in the E55 AMG with its artificial throttle and brake responses was slightly creepy. However, it is the future, and they will fix it.

Maybe they'll fix it, and ,maybe they won't, but it won't be any time soon. Mercedes is reverting to conventional braking systems on their next generation cars.

Having driven any number of cars from any number of manufacturers, I don't agree that feedback is in your head. Either you can tell what the contact patches are doing, or you can't. If the first indication that the traction achieved by the tires has changed is the car going off line and the steering suddenly going light, then the car doesn't provide much feedback. Synthesized steering feedback also doesn't tell you about grip available, only an engineers opinion about what steering feedback should feel like.

Originally posted by McGuire
In "tactile feedback" in vehicle controls we are talking about something that is basically all in our minds anyway. Put the car on a racetrack with a professional driver and it has little or no real effect on lap times, within a normal range of effort/response.

I have no idea what you mean by this. What is a normal range of effort/response? Either you are using the available grip, and therefore making the most of the car's performance, or you aren't. If the only way you can tell you're using all the grip is when you exceed it completely, you aren't approaching the potential lap time of the car, that is for certain.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Todd
I have no idea what you mean by this. What is a normal range of effort/response? Either you are using the available grip, and therefore making the most of the car's performance, or you aren't. If the only way you can tell you're using all the grip is when you exceed it completely, you aren't approaching the potential lap time of the car, that is for certain.

Take any current production car (including the new 5-series) put any capable journeyman driver behind the wheel, and he or she will locate the limits of grip with no trouble at all.