125 replies to this topic

[312 PB]

If the WDC was on the line would MS have gone round RB?

[JForce]

I think he would have been able to, yes.

[Zmeej]

Do you mean:
"Has he forgotten how to do it?"

A friend of mine sez:
"Schumi only passes in the pits."

[boyRacer]

Yep... and this forum would have gone mad.

Oh wait, anytime a red car wins people here wave their torches and pitchforks anyway.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Zmeej
Do you mean:
"Has he forgotten how to do it?"

A friend of mine sez:
"Schumi only passes in the pits."

Then Schuey must have pitted about 15 times on Sunday....

[Zmeej]

Funny, I got the joke when my friend said it...

Otherwise, of course Schumi could/should have passed Rubella. It was his race to win, and he should have just gone ahead and done it.

[Witt]

If we pretend for a moment that Barrichello and Schumacher were driving for different teams, then yes, Schumacher would have taken the lead from Barrichello like candy from a baby. Not a criticism against Barrichello, he's quite good. It's just that Schumacher is 100 times better than anyone else out there.

[Paco]

ABSOLUTELY.

Was it worth the risk to Ferrari ... ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Plus, it gives the media so much more to write about then another Shumi win, even thou this one would have been spectacular.

Paco

[Zmeej]

What risk to Ferrari?

Even if, Rubella reacted to Schumi the same way he does to anyone else who tries to pass him, and took him out, what would happen?

They'd have to try again to clinch their 1-2 finish in the WCC?

Quite a tense situation they're facing over there at the Scuderia...

[GerardF1]

Originally posted by boyRacer
Yep... and this forum would have gone mad.

Oh wait, anytime a red car wins people here wave their torches and pitchforks anyway.

It is just as bad, if not worse the other way.

Anyone says anything bad about Schumacher/Ferrari and the knives come out...

Anyone says anything good about anyone other than Schumacher/Ferrari and the knives come out..

Witness the other thread started about the fact that Schumacher had to let JPM by...and we have a poll on if it was "fair" or not.....and the pro Schumacher crowd jump in...

Start another thread with a poll about the "chop" and the anti-Schumacher crowd jump in.

It has become inpossible to express an opinion here without someone taking offensive or it being called "bait" by one side or another

Gerard

[Simioni]

Of course he could. MS was cruising for the duration, as he usually does when he doesn´t win. Had he truly wanted it, he could have used his phenomenal anal booster and farted his way up into the lead anytime, leaving RB to come a distant and foul-smelling second.

[skinnylizard]

i think its more fun this way. Rubens is out there thinking did i really win or did he let me while MS smiles under his helmet

Michael would have steamrolled Rubens had he wanted to.

[GhostR]

I liked the post-race. Rubens says something like "the team told us to conserve our engines" ... I mentally translated that into "the team told us not to race each other." Of course, the team can't issue that order without breaking the rules. So they use what is likely a code for "no more racing" (ie "conserve engines"). Schumi wasn't conserving anything until he'd cruised up behind Rubens. He nearly lost it at one stage he was pushing so hard.

[SB]

At the end of the day, it doesnt matter whether Schumi is just a little bit faster than RB or 100 times faster. The thing people ask (and wonder) is whether Ferrari allow RB races against Schumi when it matters.

And of course I believe Ferrari would never allow it happens ........

[DeathMasteR]

Originally posted by 312 PB
If the WDC was on the line would MS have gone round RB?

Well, If the WDC was on the line, IMHP RB's pitstops would be 1-2 secs longer (each), so no passing will be necessary.

[lmfdabo]

Hi

I think Schumacher could have passed Barrichello, but they where both told to conserv their engines (Barrichello told that in the pressconf.) But I don't know if that is true.

And Schumacher told that he would help Barrichello to secure second place, and it wouldn't have helped by passing him.

But I think It could have been possible, he already did onec in the race. But he was also lighter then.

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by Zmeej
What risk to Ferrari?

Even if, Rubella reacted to Schumi the same way he does to anyone else who tries to pass him, and took him out, what would happen?

They'd have to try again to clinch their 1-2 finish in the WCC?

Quite a tense situation they're facing over there at the Scuderia...

You're kidding right? One Ferrari taking out the other at home ground? And you ask what would happen?

I think it would have been possible, given that Schumacher won a second per lap once he passed Button. However, there's always the difference between catching up and passing and as it wasn't exactly necessary to pass, it was a good call to not do it. Last minute passes between Ferrari teammates have led to nasty things in the past, remember?

[Schuting Star]

Originally posted by Zmeej
Otherwise, of course Schumi could/should have passed Rubella. It was his race to win, and he should have just gone ahead and done it.

The trouble is Ferrari would be in a lose/lose situation regardless. If Michael had overtaken him people like you would be jumping all over it demanding to know how Michael could have been that much faster and Rubens was obviously slowed etc etc. In this situation they have argued before that drivers can race up to the last pitstop and then they hold station. Other teams have said they use this policy as well, so why can't Ferrari?

Personally I don't think Michael could have overtaken without risk and as there was absolutely no need to overtake he obviously didn't bother.

[Fortymark]

No
After Rubens pitted for his 3:rd stint he was doing 1.21 times and when he came out in the lead with simular fuel and new tyres he was doing 1.23 lap times. The difference was up to 2 seconds.
Anybody here believes that Barrichello was driving flatout to the end in his last stint?
He didn´t need to because he drove flatout in his previous stints. The win was his.

[Group B]

Originally posted by lmfdabo
Hi

I think Schumacher could have passed Barrichello, but they where both told to conserv their engines (Barrichello told that in the pressconf.) But I don't know if that is true.

Brawn said that they were both told to turn down their engines and "not do anything silly".

[Spunout]

Yes, I believe so. Although neither of them was pushing 100% in the end, so...

I am glad there was no orchestrated photo finish BTW.

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by JForce


Then Schuey must have pitted about 15 times on Sunday....

I love it when people think with their dicks.

[fifi]

Originally posted by Witt
If we pretend for a moment that Barrichello and Schumacher were driving for different teams, then yes, Schumacher would have taken the lead from Barrichello like candy from a baby. Not a criticism against Barrichello, he's quite good. It's just that Schumacher is 100 times better than anyone else out there.

i beleive this as well, i think he never overtook partly cos he wanted Rubens to have the win plus it would have ended up in screams of team orders if he ahd overtaken in the final stages

[ruther]

Originally posted by Fortymark No
After Rubens pitted for his 3:rd stint he was doing 1.21 times and when he came out in the lead with simular fuel and new tyres he was doing 1.23 lap times. The difference was up to 2 seconds.
Anybody here believes that Barrichello was driving flatout to the end in his last stint?
He didn´t need to because he drove flatout in his previous stints. The win was his.

So obvious...

fastest laps:

Rubens Barrichello.. 41 257.320 1:21.046
Michael Schumacher 35 256.324 1:21.361

[Ventura]

Had it been last year when the championship was tight, Michael had the pace to breeze pass Rubens. Rubens mentioned that he a more of a "wet-race" set-up, so he was slower along the straights but faster through the corners. I think MS would have nailed Rubens along the start straight after the Parabolica.

[Ventura]

Originally posted by ruther


So obvious...

fastest laps:

Rubens Barrichello.. 41 257.320 1:21.046
Michael Schumacher 35 256.324 1:21.361

That's just one lap and doesn't tell the story.
Why not match all their lap times during the race (excluding pit-stops) to see a clearer picture.

[Fortymark]

Originally posted by Ventura
Had it been last year when the championship was tight, Michael had the pace to breeze pass Rubens. Rubens mentioned that he a more of a "wet-race" set-up, so he was slower along the straights but faster through the corners. I think MS would have nailed Rubens along the start straight after the Parabolica.

If they were racing, MS wouldn´t have come any closer because his lap times were slower

[sensible]

Originally posted by Simioni
Of course he could. MS was cruising for the duration, as he usually does when he doesn´t win. Had he truly wanted it, he could have used his phenomenal anal booster and farted his way up into the lead anytime, leaving RB to come a distant and foul-smelling second.

****, is that how he does it...

[ruther]

Originally posted by Ventura
Had it been last year when the championship was tight, Michael had the pace to breeze pass Rubens. Rubens mentioned that he a more of a "wet-race" set-up, so he was slower along the straights but faster through the corners. I think MS would have nailed Rubens along the start straight after the Parabolica.

Amazing! Rubens was faster than Schumi despite a "wet-race" setup on a dry track!

[ivanalesi]

Originally posted by Fortymark


If they were racing, MS wouldn´t have come any closer because his lap times were slower

Absolutely, and Rubens had better tyres to the flag, on less laps:)

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by Ventura


That's just one lap and doesn't tell the story.
Why not match all their lap times during the race (excluding pit-stops) to see a clearer picture.

Even that doesn't say much. They were both constantly in different situations.

The fastest laps were both set in the lap before a pitstop. Rubens' was 12 laps after his previous pitstop, Michael's 20 laps. With different tyrewear and different fuel loads most of the time, it's nearly impossible to compare laptimes.

Now if Michael's lap with the similar fuelload and the more worn tyres would have been faster, then we might have been able to take some kind of conclusion, but otherwise any theory is as valid as the next one. For all we know Rubens was running his fastlap on tyres that had done 8 laps prior to when he got them in the race. Maybe his batch was just better than the batch Schumacher got. Only Ferrari and Bridgestone know for real and they're sure as hell not telling us what it really was like

[Ventura]

Originally posted by ruther


Amazing! Rubens was faster than Schumi despite a "wet-race" setup on a dry track!

Maybe you should try watching the race in future instead of spouting your usual nonsense. For at half the race the track was at least damp, the 2nd half was when it more or less dried out and played into Ferrari's hands.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by 312 PB
If the WDC was on the line would MS have gone round RB?

Maybe.

But why does it matter??

[ruther]

Originally posted by Ventura


Maybe you should try watching the race in future instead of spouting your usual nonsense. For at half the race the track was at least damp, the 2nd half was when it more or less dried out and played into Ferrari's hands.

fastest laps:

Barrichello 1:21.046 41
Barrichello 1:21.279 40
Schumacher 1:21.361 35
Barrichello 1:21.380 38
Schumacher 1:21.535 33
Schumacher 1:21.536 34
Barrichello 1:21.647 36
Barrichello 1:21.673 37
Barrichello 1:21.681 39
Barrichello 1:21.736 35
Barrichello 1:21.747 34
Barrichello 1:21.778 31
Schumacher 1:21.801 32
Barrichello 1:21.825 32

[F1 Tor.]

Originally posted by 312 PB
If the WDC was on the line would MS have gone round RB?

You have been watching Ferrari since 2000.right??? The fact you're asking is a little surprising

[Jinho]

There are some good, balanced posts here by some MS fans, and I'm glad to see that RB is getting some credit. There are also some less good ones here I think.

My personal view is this:

As Marcel said (and for the reasons he gave), we simply can't tell. I think that MS catching up to RB after the final pitstops tells us nothing - they had been told (Ross Brawn said this, as well as RB) to stop racing then. The presumption by those who think that MS would have overtaken RB is that RB and MS were racing. They weren't. I actually give Ferrari kudos for allowing RB to spoil what would have been a great victory and occasion for MS by implementing their usual rules about racing to the last pitstop.

The other thing that a lot is being made of by some is the fact that MS spun. Now, first of all, that's MS' fault. But, secondly, why is it that RB's tyre choice is ignored? He still came out 11th after the pitstop. Had he started on dry tyres, and not spun, could it not be said that he might have been higher than 11th at that point? Certainly, if MS spun and RB hadn't, he would still have been ahead. Remember that the tyre choice cost him about 25 seconds in doing the extra pitstop, and that the pitstop was at least a lap, possibly 2, too late.

MS drove a great race - he had to - but the reason he had to was that he made a mistake. RB didn't, and he got pole, fastest lap and the race win. To me, there's nothing to suggest that he was gifted the win.

The fact that RB had many of the fastest laps of the race, and also had fresher tyres, suggests to me that, had they been racing, RB may well have had enough to keep a gap to MS so that his greater straight line speed could not have been brought into play.

To answer the specific question of whether MS would have overtaken him if the WDC was on the line: in the absence of team orders, I would say that perhaps Ferrari would have allowed them to race to the finish. But, still, we don't know, and probably never will.

[312 PB]

To clarify:

If yesterday was the last race of the year, and both pilots were in the WDC hunt, would Schumacher have been able to get round Barrichello? No team orders; just racing.

I know it's a hypothetical. That's why I propose it to the board

[lukywill]

if they were racing hard. no. even if ms would be .1 or .3 faster than rubens how could he pass? they have the same car and also rubens was on better tyres.

[BMW4life]

Originally posted by Fortymark No

After Rubens pitted for his 3:rd stint he was doing 1.21 times and when he came out in the lead with simular fuel and new tyres he was doing 1.23 lap times. The difference was up to 2 seconds.
Anybody here believes that Barrichello was driving flatout to the end in his last stint?
He didn´t need to because he drove flatout in his previous stints. The win was his.

It is really irritating. How many of the schumi fans said that indy was gifted? Rubens was much faster than Schumi (who was suffering with his tyres).

It seems Rubens can do nothing right. The guy sucks big time, this year at least, but he out drove MS today. It's possible. He's been fast all weekend, gets pole by more than 5 tenths, has 10 of the 12 fastest laps and wins the bloody race, yet people say it was gifted.

There's no middle ground for 3 quarters of you all, I'd hate to think so many people can be that dense. It's clear that RB backed off after his last stop, some 2 seconds slower! That is why it seems that he was so much quicker. For good measure I'll copy and paste the best response in this thread...

fastest laps:

Barrichello 1:21.046 41
Barrichello 1:21.279 40
Schumacher 1:21.361 35
Barrichello 1:21.380 38
Schumacher 1:21.535 33
Schumacher 1:21.536 34
Barrichello 1:21.647 36
Barrichello 1:21.673 37
Barrichello 1:21.681 39
Barrichello 1:21.736 35
Barrichello 1:21.747 34
Barrichello 1:21.778 31
Schumacher 1:21.801 32
Barrichello 1:21.825 32

... and add an extra

You guys have to be ****ing kidding! Yeah, MS farted past the entire field but RB had the same car and was faster looking at that list of fastest laps. shameful if you can"t notice a big difference>

[dnbn]

Originally posted by Jinho
Remember that the tyre choice cost him about 25 seconds in doing the extra pitstop, and that the pitstop was at least a lap, possibly 2, too late.

I believe that Barrichello was on a 3-stop strategy to begin with. The only impact of starting with intermediates was to bring him in earlier than planned for the first stop.

[BMW4life]

One more thing, I'm certain that MS was not a happy man underneath that helmet yesterday. Unlike Rubens' last Monza victory, where MS could indeed have won, RB had him covered this time, case close. I feel sorry for you Barrichello supporters, I'm a regular RB basher but this is level of idiocy is the stuff of lore. Unbelievable!

[Jinho]

Originally posted by dnbn
I believe that Barrichello was on a 3-stop strategy to begin with. The only impact of starting with intermediates was to bring him in earlier than planned for the first stop.

Fair enough - but what do you base that on? In qualy MS wasn't right with him only because he made a mistake at the parabolica. But, either way, RB was still faster, and if the strategy played into his hands, fabulous! I don't remember it being any excuse for Rubens when he was on a different strategy/tyres to MS and his race went tits up.

Even if he were to be on a 3 all along, the fact is that he therefore picked a decent strategy, and MS' mistake cost him the chance of a win. MS making a mistake does not mean that he gifted RB the win.

As BMW4life says, look at the list offastest laps, to say that MS was somehow faster is a little fanciful.

BMW4life: great posts. I particularly liked this:

I feel sorry for you Barrichello supporters, I'm a regular RB basher but this is level of idiocy is the stuff of lore. Unbelievable!

Too true

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by ruther
fastest laps:

Barrichello 1:21.046 41
Barrichello 1:21.279 40
Schumacher 1:21.361 35
Barrichello 1:21.380 38
Schumacher 1:21.535 33
Schumacher 1:21.536 34
Barrichello 1:21.647 36
Barrichello 1:21.673 37
Barrichello 1:21.681 39
Barrichello 1:21.736 35
Barrichello 1:21.747 34
Barrichello 1:21.778 31
Schumacher 1:21.801 32
Barrichello 1:21.825 32

The funny thing is, watch the first 30 laps of the race, before they switched Rubens to a short stopper:

[b]Driver		  Lap Time  Lap[/b]

-----------------------------

Schumacher	  1:21.899   28

Schumacher	  1:21.973   12

Schumacher	  1:21.996   29

Schumacher	  1:22.013   30

Schumacher	  1:22.170   13

Schumacher	  1:22.317   27

Schumacher	  1:22.399   26

Schumacher	  1:22.471   23

Schumacher	  1:22.484   25

Pizzonia		1:22.502   28

Schumacher	  1:22.560   24

[u]Barrichello	 1:22.563   28[/u]

Button		  1:22.671   13

Schumacher	  1:22.783   11

And then note something else: Most of Schumacher''s laps came after his 1st stop (on lap 15) but well before be his 2nd stop (lap 36). Rubens stopped at lap 5 and 29, his lap 28 (directly prior to stopping) obviously being his fastest. But notice this, in that 1st stint, Rubens' 2nd fastest lap was actually a 1:23.08 while Schumacher was consistenly putting in low 1.22 lap times...

Rubens only put in hot laps after they put him on tow short 12 lap stints. Anyone remember Schumacher's pace when they switched him to short stints in France?

So, the lap times tell zilch, for the majority of the race, Schumacher was puting Rubens to shame concerning consistently blistering laps.

[SlateGray]

IMHO MS could have passed RB if he wanted to.

A nice little gifted win from the champ to the chump.

[Simioni]

Mosquito, Rubens had a truckload of fuel for his 2nd stint and when the fuel finally began to come down he was stuck behind the leading trio. Schumacher was in clean air most of the time. The only time they were actually in comparable situation was during those short stints and as the fastest laps show, Rubens was faster.

[wagner]

Originally posted by 312 PB
If the WDC was on the line would MS have gone round RB?

Irrelevant question. They don't race each other. But they take care of that Michael is ahead if he needs to.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Zmeej
Do you mean:
"Has he forgotten how to do it?"

A friend of mine sez:
"Schumi only passes in the pits."

[metz]

In the final analysis it is still a team sport, whether we like it or not.
For Schumi to pass Rubin, staged or for real, would have done nothing for the team.
Thus the decision was made to "conserve the engines", ie do nothing that could upset a Ferrari 1-2.

[speedmaster]

Pure BS.... there is no way to know... Rubens was in a great day, allowed to race and given the chance... We may say it won't be that easy if Schummi could attack but we will never know if he would pass or not...

You guys are so full of envy for Rubens that you can't, even, acknowledge a good performance.

It should be hard live with a soul so full of....ehrrrr....how can I say..... sh**

[Martijn]

Well in the end after the last stop, the gap between Rubens and Schumacher was ~4 seconds. Schumacher closed those 4 seconds within 3 laps, but thats not important

Schumacher could have gained those 4 seconds by either passing Webber faster (i think he lost a lot of time there - but passing is never easy) or by running for 2 more laps before his last stop (obviously there wasnt enough fuel for that). That would have been the way to win the race.

After the pitstop it was never in doubt that they wouldnt race eachother. Had Rubens been in a different team tho and a WDC on the line, there is no doubt in my mind that Schumacher would have gone for it.