35 replies to this topic

[ffiloseta]

At the podium ceremony, one of Fox's (LA) commentators noticed that Luca Di Montezemolo was to receive the constructors trophy. He remarked that as far as he remembered, that was the first time that was to happen. Then he remarked that it came as no surprise, as he couldn't think of any better symbol for Italian industry and manufacture than Ferrari.

Di Montezemolo declared China as an "emergent market" for Ferrari, having sold 50 cars this year and planning to sell over a hundred in 2005.

I also think that Berlusconi's comments about Di Montezemolo (touting him as a heir to the Italian throne) had something to do too. Furthermore, let's not forget that China is a prime market for Fiat.

Anyhow, my first reaction was to sneer at this cheesy proposal. But after less than a minute I found myself finding wisdom in the commentator's statements. And now, I also believe that Ferrari is the best ambassador Italian Industry could ever ask for.

What do you think?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Not trying to **** on Italy, but Ferrari doesnt represent Italian manufacturing/economy. Its a very very very high end product, its hardly "oh, everything made in Italy is at the level of Ferrari"

[tifosi4life]

but they do represent the passion and style of Italy.

[bira]

I wouldn't say Ferrari is representative of Italian manufacturing, but rather I would say they are a good representative for Italy.

[Scorg]

Just using their high end product name as a helping push to get their bread and butter cars selling.
The large fiat Saloon is near completion and chances are its going to have a big push in China (as they love saloon cars more then anything it seems) and Luca is thinking business with what he is doing

[_bigbadbob_]

Originally posted by bira
I wouldn't say Ferrari is representative of Italian manufacturing, but rather I would say they are a good representative for Italy.

Anyone who's familar with the build quality of most Fiats and Alfas know that they aren't even in the same ballpark as Ferrari's F1 reliability. But Ferrari clearly shows what an Italian enterprise is capable of, and indeed they are excellent representatives for Italy.

[V10 Fireworks]

Where do Ferrari find the cars to fill all these new markets they pursue, if they cap the number of cars that make per year to that fixed number (only a few thousand odd?) . It's incredible, the waiting lists must be a mile long.

[Scorg]

Originally posted by _bigbadbob_




Anyone who's familar with the build quality of most Fiats and Alfas know that they aren't even in the same ballpark as Ferrari's F1 reliability. But Ferrari clearly shows what an Italian enterprise is capable of, and indeed they are excellent representatives for Italy.

I'll have to admit, My Brava is fine ta
Perents own a Stilo, has had niggles though, nothing serious, just annoying as the dealer can be slow in dealing with it.

But agreed, nice representation for Italy there

[speedmaster]

Nice? how come just nice... I would say that Ferrari is the most identifiable brand Italy has...

[Scorg]

your not going to start picking up on words now are you?

[skinnylizard]

they are a legendary name and hugely popular. its hardly relevant if they are or are not correctly a symbol. they will be touted as one.

but i have often read that Ferraris were notoriously unreliable (road cars) is that true?

[Paul Parker]

You are joking right?

[Wouter]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
You are joking right?

I don't think he's joking, IIRC I heard something similar, that Ferrari road cars weren't so reliable - in the past. Don't know if that was true though.

[Deepak]

Originally posted by skinnylizard
they are a legendary name and hugely popular. its hardly relevant if they are or are not correctly a symbol. they will be touted as one.

but i have often read that Ferraris were notoriously unreliable (road cars) is that true?

Maybe you dont read the right source

[KinetiK]

The oil & gas and petrochemical industries in Canada turn to Italian steel makers for the most difficult of jobs. If you need a 12 ft tall vessel that will withstand pressures of 4500 psi and you need the whole thing nickle plated with a mirror finish to tolerances of 1mm there's only one place to go really... Italy.

[Paul Parker]

Sorry, I was being facetious.

The idea that Ferrari F1 represents Italian standards of manufacturing and excellence is the joke. F1 is of course multi-national and draws on the best brains and technology available worldwide regardless of the team's national origins.

As for Ferrari road cars, they have I understand improved exponentially over the years, but then they needed to as the 1960-1970s ones I had experience of were CRAP durability and reliability wise, not to mention low geared steering, inadequate brakes, bodywork contours finished off with baked porridge and the necessity to have 3 feet arms and 2 feet (no pun intended) legs.

Even now I think you would have to think very seriously about the quality thing and as for Fiat/Alfa Romeo, if friend's experience of reliability and resale are anything to go by, best walk on by.

[skinnylizard]

i think the greatness and heritage of the Ferrai marque tends to kind of wash away its sins. i have long heard that Ferraris had a tendency to breakdown and didnt believe it because it just didnt make sense.

in general what i know is that though absolutely beautiful Ferraris from the 50's - 70's were of suspect reliability (not all of them) and were badly engineered and put together.

the marque picked up in the 80's in terms of quality and engineering with the mid 80s hitting levels that we see today.

[madmac]

Originally posted by bira
I wouldn't say Ferrari is representative of Italian manufacturing, but rather I would say they are a good representative for Italy.

Gotta agree 100% After reading the thread title I had a think about what Italian brands I could think of or buy & apart from a really crappy Uno I once owned (man lets not get started on that) All I could come up with (apart from great fashion, wine and cinema) was washing machines (Zanussi?) & I think I Italy can build ships pretty well. Obviously KinetiK has more expirience on this, but I'm talking about houshold names. Oh & don't get me wrong I'm not saying Italy is usless, I love the country & people.

[TIPO61]

They don't do a bad job on luxury yachts, or luxury anything.

[CampioneFerrari]

Italy is also a world leader in hydraulics. They have top of the line espresso machines also. ;)Oh ya and Italy also ruled the world at one point at created modern cites and civilization.

[TIPO61]

and the Wine (not Montoya), and the food.

[ffiloseta]

What about industrial design?

[AlexS]

There was an black period in quality of italian cars in end of 70 to the end of eighties, not all models but a big chunk of them. Usually it was electrical components not the car in itself. The rusty of the end of 70´s was a problem too. Political turbulent years may have contributed for that.

[zfh10]

Italian engineering?! See my sig!






;)

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Paul Parker

As for Ferrari road cars, they have I understand improved exponentially over the years, but then they needed to as the 1960-1970s ones I had experience of were CRAP durability and reliability wise, not to mention low geared steering, inadequate brakes, bodywork contours finished off with baked porridge and the necessity to have 3 feet arms and 2 feet (no pun intended) legs.

Even now I think you would have to think very seriously about the quality thing and as for Fiat/Alfa Romeo, if friend's experience of reliability and resale are anything to go by, best walk on by.

That goes along with what I've heard about Ferrari's road cars too. It's also been reported that the 355 model was practically the first major step up from the "atrocious" quality level. I still wouldn't want to pay the maintenance expenses for a Ferrari - even 355's.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.nsxfiles....f355_update.htm

[Teez]

Originally posted by zfh10
Italian engineering?! See my sig!

Interviewer: "Will the McLaren F1 be your answer to the Ferrari F40?"
Gordon Murray: "Hmm... I don't think we have anyone at McLaren who can weld that badly..."

That's pretty funny considering the gosh-awful, laughable reliability of McLaren on the track compared to Ferrari.

Back to the topic at hand, isn't Fiat one of, if not the, largest and best producers of farm machinery (tractors, tillers, etc) in the world?

[LS 1]

Regarding reliability, it seems to me that the limited production auto industry has benefited greatly from the computer, both in design processes, and in terms of the equipment on the cars themselves.

A 1969 Ferrari Daytona V12 had 6 (six!) webber 2-barrels and two dual-point distributors. Yikes!!! Could such a set up EVER be reliable, regardless of who made it?

Nowadays a V12 will have the same coil-on-plug ignition and fuel injection system as is found in many other cars, and these systems are wonderfully reliable. I'll bet that about 90% of the required maintenance would have been eliminated by this change alone.

As for design, it sure is easier to check all those little details (like the relationship between the drivers seat the the brake pedal) in a 3D digital world than it is with clay models, a ruler, and a lot of guesswork!

[Cociani]

Anybody who is concerned about the cost of maintaining a Ferrari road car probably shouldn't buy one.

[FNG]

Originally posted by Cociani
Anybody who is concerned about the cost of maintaining a Ferrari road car probably shouldn't buy one.

Bingo

[Only Massa]

Actually (I'm Italian and I work in the international branding field), Ferrari is the flagship Italian brand in the world.

Italian industry lives in a paradox: on one hand Italy is renowned for its great and unique production (fashion products, macro and micro metallurgy, boats, luxury cars, house-building [italian carpenters are known in the world for their skills in working marble, ceramics and tiles and often great international hotels are built and decorated by italian workforce], luxury household objects).

On the other hand, Italian low-cost production is suffering the competition of China and other eastern countries.

But Ferrari is clearly a great Italian (and universal brand), since it combines:

- history and tradition: Ferrari is an old brand, whose image is unchanged since it was born
- design: Ferrari road cars display their usual italian design (Italy has a tradition of great car designers: Pininfarina, Giugiaro, Bertone, Coggiola, etc.)
- winning and racing image: see Michael Schumacher
- luxury without ostentation
- innovation
- exclusivity: they make only a limited number of cars, usually hand-built and they do not have any low-cost or non-traditional models (like Porsche)
- brand image: Ferrari uses a limited amount of well-known unique colors (ferrari-red, modena-yellow, etc), design elements, etc.
- passion: Ferrari is a relatively small company of car-lovers that makes few cars for few car-lovers. It's not an anonymous super industrial group (even if it belongs to one of them) and it deals with its customers with a face-to-face policy. Customer care is a priority for the read marque.

Combine this with the fact that there is almost no competition for Ferrari in its own market (barely Aston Martin, but other brands such as Lamborghini and Porsche do not have the "image-coolness"of the red marque) and you'll get the point.

[speedmaster]

Originally posted by Only Massa
Actually (I'm Italian and I work in the international branding field), Ferrari is the flagship Italian brand in the world.

Italian industry lives in a paradox: on one hand Italy is renowned for its great and unique production (fashion products, macro and micro metallurgy, boats, luxury cars, house-building [italian carpenters are known in the world for their skills in working marble, ceramics and tiles and often great international hotels are built and decorated by italian workforce], luxury household objects).

On the other hand, Italian low-cost production is suffering the competition of China and other eastern countries.

But Ferrari is clearly a great Italian (and universal brand), since it combines:

- history and tradition: Ferrari is an old brand, whose image is unchanged since it was born
- design: Ferrari road cars display their usual italian design (Italy has a tradition of great car designers: Pininfarina, Giugiaro, Bertone, Coggiola, etc.)
- winning and racing image: see Michael Schumacher
- luxury without ostentation
- innovation
- exclusivity: they make only a limited number of cars, usually hand-built and they do not have any low-cost or non-traditional models (like Porsche)
- brand image: Ferrari uses a limited amount of well-known unique colors (ferrari-red, modena-yellow, etc), design elements, etc.
- passion: Ferrari is a relatively small company of car-lovers that makes few cars for few car-lovers. It's not an anonymous super industrial group (even if it belongs to one of them) and it deals with its customers with a face-to-face policy. Customer care is a priority for the read marque.

Combine this with the fact that there is almost no competition for Ferrari in its own market (barely Aston Martin, but other brands such as Lamborghini and Porsche do not have the "image-coolness"of the red marque) and you'll get the point.

Ferrari is a legend and something to be cared of by us, auto racing and automobile fans. I don't like the F1 tactics but other than that we must pay our respects to the Italians for this fantastic brand.

[kouks]

Originally posted by LS 1


A 1969 Ferrari Daytona V12 had 6 (six!) webber 2-barrels and two dual-point distributors. Yikes!!! Could such a set up EVER be reliable, regardless of who made it?

But have you ever heard the 6 webbers sucking in the juice at a rate of knots. I'll have that thrill any time.

Well I traded my ultra reliable but dead boring Honda Prelude VtiR for an Alfa GTV 3.0 V6. Off course I know the Honda is a better built car, much more reliable but it just doesn't matter.;)

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Only Massa
Actually ... the point.

Excellant post! I deleted it for brevity.

Ferrari's F1 enterprise is a superb example of what an Italian company can achieve when they do it right. Currently, the best team in the world, when looking over the last 5 or so years.

I have a Swiss line of machinery, and I mention Rolex as an example of typical Swiss quality and reliability. In reality, Rolex is a cottage industry product with a Geneva (French) heritage and despite wearing the same one for 20 odd years the reality of what it is, is far from what its marketing makes it appear.

So using Ferrari as an Italian brand icon is an obviously good idea. Ferrari is a superb tool for selling what Italian manufacturing can achieve.

I'll not comment about what happened to the Rolls Royce label - pity the British - what can they hang their hat on? Virgin?

I am in the machinery business, and Italian machinery is very good. It is more adventurous and lower cost than German machinery, which is better engineered and more conservative. Some Italian companies dominate certain segments of my machine market with a combination of excellance and innovation. Others which make the same thing can be quite inferior. These machines all start at US$200k and go upwards from there. There's quite a bit of variance in Italian machinery, but it has a great reputation in Australia/NZ for value if you buy the right one. Ferrari's supremacy over these last years will do a huge future economic benefit to Italian manufacturing.

Don't know though whether them doing badly in the future will have an inverse negative effect. A while ago I think Bira suggested that Ferrari could pull out of F1 while they are on top. Sounded heracy, but if there is a negative effect on Italian industry should Ferrari go badly for consequtive years, then for Italy Ferrari quiting F1 while on top would be a good thing for Italy. Should the cost of success be so great? Who knows ...

[zfh10]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I am in the machinery business, and Italian machinery is very good. It is more adventurous and lower cost than German machinery, which is better engineered and more conservative. Some Italian companies dominate certain segments of my machine market with a combination of excellance and innovation. Others which make the same thing can be quite inferior. These machines all start at US$200k and go upwards from there. There's quite a bit of variance in Italian machinery, but it has a great reputation in Australia/NZ for value if you buy the right one. Ferrari's supremacy over these last years will do a huge future economic benefit to Italian manufacturing.

Don't know though whether them doing badly in the future will have an inverse negative effect. A while ago I think Bira suggested that Ferrari could pull out of F1 while they are on top. Sounded heracy, but if there is a negative effect on Italian industry should Ferrari go badly for consequtive years, then for Italy Ferrari quiting F1 while on top would be a good thing for Italy. Should the cost of success be so great? Who knows ...

It's funny, here in NZ something that happens to be made outside of Asia is assumed to be better quality. For example, oil heaters for sale over last winter in this country proudly stating 'Made in Italy'. Some English people who have emigrated to NZ laugh and laugh when they saw that 'Made in Italy' advertisement - according to them, customers in the UK would rather walk over broken glass than purchase something made in Italy which is always assumed to be of dubious quality.

[ffiloseta]

Originally posted by zfh10
...Some English people who have emigrated to NZ laugh and laugh when they saw that 'Made in Italy' advertisement - according to them, customers in the UK would rather walk over broken glass than purchase something made in Italy which is always assumed to be of dubious quality.

Funny comment, coming from people whose cars were famous for terrible electrics. I always remember Jim Knight, who used to be my Jag's mechanic, saying "Why do you think we Brits drink our beers at ambient temperature? Electrics in refrigerators are always breaking down. One stops bothering after a while."

[Melbourne Park]

All countries can make bad things, because things are made by organisations, and organisations differ. Cars are made by large companies, but even their quality levels and appeals differ, even when made in the same factory. When one gets down to heaters, its not country dependent, its company and technology dependent. A heater is a simple thing to make, its quality will rely upon its components. If its an oil filled electric one, the welding will not have been done by hand, whether its made in China or Italy. The design will be based upon a strategic marketing decision, not a decision based upon available local resources. The hype in NZ about Italian heaters is likely marketing hype: an excuse to increase price. Nonetheless, if I was putting in hydronic heating, I would be happy with Italian water radiators. I would not put in Chinese made ones.