98 replies to this topic

[UPRC]

After glancing over the '04 standings, I have noticed some things about the amount of points Rubens Barrichello has scored this year.

1. It is his most successful season to date. The first time he has broken 100 points.
2. He has scored more points this season then the typical WDC normally does in one year.
3. If Irvine could do be a gigantic WDC contendor with all of Ferrari's support, why not Rubens?
4. He has had a great season.

I don't know, maybe if Rubens had someone like Massa or Heidfeld by his side he could take the crown. I guess this whole post is a "what if" scenerio.


Also, when does his contract with Ferrari expire? When did Schumacher say he plans on racing to, at least? Was it 2006? Would Ferrari let both drivers leave the team?

While Barrichello certainly is NOT star material, I sincerely believe that he deserves to be Schumacher's successor at Ferrari simply because he can bring the car home ahead of the pack when Schumacher has already wrapped up the title.

If we had a repeat of 1999 and Schumacher couldn't race, or say he just has extremely bad luck and finishes poorly for a few races while Rubens shines up front without Michael to take the flag. Would the team rally behind Rubens, or would they stay devoted to Michael? At the moment, Rubens is only about 30 points behind Michael (approximately, don't quote me with the exact moment) so it's reasonable to assume that it could happen at the start of a season.. Unlikely, but it could happen.

[tifosi]

It would depned a lot on who his teammate is but I believe he's capable.

[Taxi]

no

[philhitchings]

wasn't there a thread working out the points minus MS earlier in the season? that might help to answer the question.

(sorry v busy at the mo don't have time to search for it myself)

[Kilted Wanderer]

Originally posted by UPRC
If we had a repeat of 1999 and Schumacher couldn't race, or say he just has extremely bad luck and finishes poorly for a few races while Rubens shines up front without Michael to take the flag. Would the team rally behind Rubens, or would they stay devoted to Michael? At the moment, Rubens is only about 30 points behind Michael (approximately, don't quote me with the exact moment) so it's reasonable to assume that it could happen at the start of a season.. Unlikely, but it could happen.

The obvious question that follows on is Would Barrichello have succeeded in '99 where Irvine failed?

I can't help remembering Irvine overshoot his pit at Silverstone - perhaps I'm remembering things wrongly, but I seem to remember that pitstop costing him the win and ultimately the Championship. Would Rubens have made that mistake?

[Taxi]

If Hakkinen had a normal car, a normal team mate, and a normal luck I should say, Even Michael wouldn't beat him.

Eddie could had won that championship. He was not good enough to deserve it. Rubens Is a litle better than him. But not a WDC. If he was alone in the ferrari for a wole season he would lose to young guns like Kimi or Alonso or even Monty. lack that extra thing that make champions

[ILI]

Most driver would win WC with 2002 or 2004 Ferrari and number 1 status in team.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Taxi
no

[Lopez]

It really depends on who his teammate is. If he'd been partnered with someone slower than him then this year the answer is obviously yes.

I think the more interesting question is whether he'd have won in place of Irvine. But that's something impossible to answer, really. Who knows how he'd respond to the pressure / emotions of actually being in the position to win or lose a world championship. We don't know since we've never seen it. Being in that position certainly has been shown to make even the best drivers make mistakes.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Kilted Wanderer


The obvious question that follows on is Would Barrichello have succeeded in '99 where Irvine failed?

I can't help remembering Irvine overshoot his pit at Silverstone - perhaps I'm remembering things wrongly, but I seem to remember that pitstop costing him the win and ultimately the Championship. Would Rubens have made that mistake?

I remember Ferrari losing his tires.

I dont believe EI ever had the full support of Ferrari in the same way that MS has. The whole team dropped the ball once MS was out.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by ILI
Most driver would win WC with 2002 or 2004 Ferrari and number 1 status in team.

Exactly. Put Bruni or Baumgartner in the other Ferrari and Rubens would have won either year by a landslide. But then again so would about 10-15 other drivers.

[ruther]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Exactly. Put Bruni or Baumgartner in the other Ferrari and Rubens would have won either year by a landslide. But then again so would about 10-15 other drivers.

Bruni, Baumgartner or Coulthard would never make it.

[speedmaster]

With the team working for him he would have won easily....

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by ruther


Bruni, Baumgartner or Coulthard would never make it.

[molive]

Originally posted by Clatter


I remember Ferrari losing his tires.

I dont believe EI ever had the full support of Ferrari in the same way that MS has. The whole team dropped the ball once MS was out.

Even though I think Irvine was a loud mouth, I have to agree, Ferrari just didnt seem as keen to win a title with him as they were with MS, and imho they took their eye off the ball (sure, Hakkinen too was responsible for making sure they'd pay dearly for that mistake).

As for DC, sure , he could win a title at Ferrari, provided he didnt have a Finn as teamate...

[wegmann]

Originally posted by ruther


Bruni, Baumgartner or Coulthard would never make it.

I agree Bruni and Baumgartner couldn't have, but at least half of the current grid, including Coulthard and Barrichello, could have won the championship in the 2002 or 2004 Ferrari as number one driver.

But the car is what it is because of Michael, Byrne, Todt, Braun, etc., not because of Barrichello.

[Martijn]

I think Rubens would have won the 2004 championship then, yes. He would have won about 7 races, equalling the best seasons of Mansell, Senna and Prost. 2004 would have been Rubens' 2nd or 3rd championship then, putting him equal with Senna. Rubens would have been a star, a legend.

And that is the guy that Michael beat by all but one race

[BorderReiver]

Well, F1 has produced some less deserving Champions than Rubens in the past, we are watching an era of unusual harmony in F1 between driver and team, it is fair to say this dynasty of Ferrari is the most dominant and long running in the sports history, couple with the best driver of his generation, bullet proof reliability and focused "politics".

Lotus at their peak were probably just as dominant in terms of performance, but utterly fragile. Williams at their peak were probably just as dominant in terms of performance but never focused behind one driver to the extent the Scuderia does today. McLaren was much the same.

What we see in F1 now is utterly unprecidented, a Scuderia "Lock Out" on the series that has never been seen before.

If Michael Schumacher had never happened, and Ferrari were in this position (not that they probably would be without Schumacher), but if, and another driver had the support of the team in the way he does now, then of course they would stand a very good chance of becoming Champion.

Rubens is no slouch, he is a fine Formula One driver, but he is paired with one of the top 5 F1 drivers of history in a team that is at it's peak in broad terms of reliability and performance and that when the need arises focuses it's attention and championship thrust on Schumacher. No detriment to Michael, but no wonder he struggles in comparison.

No Schumacher, well then, perhaps we would have seen RB, DC, KR and maybe even JPM as Champions already. Unfortunately for these guys they aren't Michael Schumacher in Michael Schumacher's seat. But if he wasn't there. . . .

For DC it is probably too late (barring some kind of epiphany next season), RB may well scoop a Championship after MS retires, he is young enough and good enough to carry the mantle in Schumacher's absence. KR is a man for the future but he may well face some tough opposition in the other young chargers, and JPM is one of those "maybe if everything is right" drivers in my mind. Perhaps he will, perhaps he wont.

In ten years time I'm fairly convinced we will be looking back on the "post-Schumacher" era as a golden one of competition in F1 when anyone of 5 or 6 drivers could scoop titles.

It should be great fun. . .

[Torx]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
RB may well scoop a Championship after MS retires, he is young enough and good enough to carry the mantle in Schumacher's absence.

To win a championship RB must pray to have a technical advantage what F2002 and F2004 have offered. With a car that is not miles ahead of the opposition (like F2003) he will be toast.

[Heathcliff]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
Well, F1 has produced some less deserving Champions than Rubens in the past,

Oh really?
Who would you include in that list?

[Heathcliff]

Originally posted by wegmann

But the car is what it is because of Michael, Byrne, Todt, Braun, etc., not because of Barrichello.

Hmm..Weird-Why do you include MS in those responsible for the cars sucess, but not RB?
Explain please.

[sensible]

Originally posted by ruther


Bruni, Baumgartner or Coulthard would never make it
Originally posted by Ricardo F1

See thats where you make yourself look stupid.


Its actually not that simple to win a WDC, whatever you may think. Having the best car certainly helps, but even when youve pretty much been shoe horned in to the title (cf DH 96, JV 97) it isnt that easy. SO despite all yoyr protestations, I think history proves it isnt simply a matter of having the best car (though that certainly helps).

To be a WDC you have to be a WDC. Not everyone can make it, even in the most gifted circumstances when you have the best car and no obvious competition.

Would Bruni and Baumgartner ? Who knows, they've never been there.

Would DC? I think history has already answered that one

[Lopez]

RB may well scoop a Championship after MS retires, he is young enough and good enough to carry the mantle in Schumacher's absence.

He may, but Ferrari's technical domination has to be part of this too. There's no telling when they will cease to be the best car on the grid. Granted, it doesn't look like they will falter any time soon, but they can't dominate this way forever...

[BMW4life]

Hmm..Weird-Why do you include MS in those responsible for the cars sucess, but not RB?
Explain please.

MS helps design the cars and sweep the factory.

[senninha]

Originally posted by tifosi
It would depned a lot on who his teammate is but I believe he's capable.

Agree.

If his teammate won´t be Kimi, he can, easily.

After Damon Hill won a WDC over MS, everybody can be a "WDC material", with a proper material...

[HSJ]

Of course RB could/would be WDC if MS wasn't at Ferrari anymore, but it requires the following:

- if Ferrari continue with #1/#2 policy, RB is made #1
- the above also requires that no one really good is his teammate in MS's place
- he has a F2002/F2004 level advantage over the rest of the field

In reality MS's replacement would probably be a better driver than RB, so RB WDC would only be a dream, unless 1999 happened all over again in a year when Ferrari again have a F2002/F2004 level advantage.

[skinnylizard]

Rubens could def be a WDC. he def has what it takes. the races that MS won and he came in second would have been his if MS hadnt been there.

but a Woobens WDC would be worse than watchin a MS WDC.

besides he cries too much.

[ryka]

This year - yes, he could become a WC, if Schummi is out of fight.

[karlth]

Calling Ruben's season a good one is quite a stretch.

You are compared to your teammate and he has been thumped.

[HBoss]

Yes, as long as he had a car comparable to the F2002 or F2004 and a teammate that wasn't better.

[Heathcliff]

Originally posted by HBoss
and a teammate that wasn't better.

But what are the changes of Ferrari hiring someone of Brunis, Damattas or Pantanos calibre?

[Simioni]

Sure. JV and DH won the WDC with less dominant cars than the current ferrari, and RB is a more complete driver than both.

[Taxi]

that's good for a laugh.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Simioni
Sure. JV and DH won the WDC with less dominant cars than the current ferrari, and RB is a more complete driver than both.

Based on what?

He barely edged Irvine and Brundle at Jordan. What has happened since?

[Group B]

Originally posted by HSJ
Of course RB could/would be WDC if MS wasn't at Ferrari anymore, but it requires the following:

In reality MS's replacement would probably be a better driver than RB, ...

Based on what? If there's anyone in a top seat that should be in a commentary box right now it's DC, not RB, yet I VERY rarely hear you slagging him off with even a 10th of the venom you spit at RB; We're all patently aware of your feebly disguised campaign to crucify Rubens and discredit MS by association HSJ, but given the revative performance of RB and DC lately you really are in danger of taking your hypocrisy and double standards to a level that would make even Tony Blair hesitate.

[Deeq]

Originally posted by karlth


Based on what?

He barely edged Irvine and Brundle at Jordan. What has happened since?

But Irvine almost won the title against the better Car so...
OTOH I think Damon is the faster driver of the lot.

[HBoss]

Originally posted by karlth

(...)What has happened since?

Many years have passed.

[wegmann]

Originally posted by Heathcliff

Hmm..Weird-Why do you include MS in those responsible for the cars sucess, but not RB?
Explain please.

Simple answer: the team is built around MS, not RB. MS has been there longer and I believe that the car & tire designers listen more carefully to his comments than RB.

Sure, RB does testing and contributes to the car ... I shouldn't have implied that he has NO influence. But the car has been built specifically for Michael to win the championship for, what, 8 years now? Michael has a different driving style than Rubens, and setup alone cannot account for all the differences - many attributes are designed right into the car, specifically for MS.

My main point was that if Ferrari had hired Rubens rather than Michael all those years ago, and without the help of those I named, then I simply don't believe Rubens would be driving a dominant Ferrari to victory nearly every weekend as Michael does.

[wagner]

Originally posted by wegmann
Simple answer: the team is built around MS, not RB. MS has been there longer and I believe that the car & tire designers listen more carefully to his comments than RB.

Sure, RB does testing and contributes to the car ... I shouldn't have implied that he has NO influence. But the car has been built specifically for Michael to win the championship for, what, 8 years now? Michael has a different driving style than Rubens, and setup alone cannot account for all the differences - many attributes are designed right into the car, specifically for MS.

My main point was that if Ferrari had hired Rubens rather than Michael all those years ago, and without the help of those I named, then I simply don't believe Rubens would be driving a dominant Ferrari to victory nearly every weekend as Michael does.

Why not? As much as it said how much Michael has moved the team forward, a fact is that the team took giant steps only after RB came. And if the car was custom built and teamorders were pro-Rubens well ... a few WDCs might have already come.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by karlth
Calling Ruben's season a good one is quite a stretch.

You are compared to your teammate and he has been thumped.

Yes but intelligent people also look at who that teammate is and can make some conclusions. Morns simply look at the numbers and say X is better than y duhhhh Example Barri is thumped by Schumacher but BAumgartner thumps Bruni. So is Baumgartner more WDC material than Barri???

[ERD1]

Originally posted by Group B


Based on what? If there's anyone in a top seat that should be in a commentary box right now it's DC, not RB, yet I VERY rarely hear you slagging him off with even a 10th of the venom you spit at RB; We're all patently aware of your feebly disguised campaign to crucify Rubens and discredit MS by association HSJ, but given the revative performance of RB and DC lately you really are in danger of taking your hypocrisy and double standards to a level that would make even Tony Blair hesitate.

HSJ will not like the fact that, in this case, I am defending him.

Rubens stands to have as a new teammate someone better than he. If it were Verstappen, for instance, then he would be WDC - but it won't. It will be any one of a dozen drivers who could take it to RB. In that list would be some out-of-favours like Heidfeld.

I would hope Fisi gets his chance as he wants it so much and has paid his dues.

Cheers

[Jeff]

Originally posted by wegmann


I agree Bruni and Baumgartner couldn't have, but at least half of the current grid, including Coulthard and Barrichello, could have won the championship in the 2002 or 2004 Ferrari as number one driver.

But the car is what it is because of Michael, Byrne, Todt, Braun, etc., not because of Barrichello.

Wegmann! - You are absolutely right.

Your last sentence adds a much needed note of sanity to a board with too many folks writing with their heart, not their head.

Keep it up!

[ERD1]

Originally posted by Group B


Based on what? If there's anyone in a top seat that should be in a commentary box right now it's DC, not RB, yet I VERY rarely hear you slagging him off with even a 10th of the venom you spit at RB; We're all patently aware of your feebly disguised campaign to crucify Rubens and discredit MS by association HSJ, but given the revative performance of RB and DC lately you really are in danger of taking your hypocrisy and double standards to a level that would make even Tony Blair hesitate.

HSJ will not like the fact that, in this case, I am defending him.

Rubens stands to have as a new teammate someone better than he. If it were Verstappen, for instance, then he would be WDC - but it won't. It will be any one of a dozen drivers who could take it to RB. In that list would be some out-of-favours like Heidfeld.

I would hope Fisi gets his chance as he wants it so much and has paid his dues.

Cheers

[karlth]

Originally posted by tifosi


Yes but intelligent people also look at who that teammate is and can make some conclusions.

Certainly but Barrichello has lost badly against Schumacher this season. If you believe that Schumacher would have thumped Raikkonen, Montoya and the rest of the top drivers too then I guess one could say he had perhaps done well. I just don't believe that is the case. With all his experience Rubens should have been much closer.

He like Ralf and David can manage a few great races each season but that is it.

Anyway a driver who struggles against Brundle in his 4th year of racing is certainly not near the top of the ladder.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
Well, F1 has produced some less deserving Champions than Rubens in the past, we are watching an era of unusual harmony in F1 between driver and team, it is fair to say this dynasty of Ferrari is the most dominant and long running in the sports history, couple with the best driver of his generation, bullet proof reliability and focused "politics".

Lotus at their peak were probably just as dominant in terms of performance, but utterly fragile. Williams at their peak were probably just as dominant in terms of performance but never focused behind one driver to the extent the Scuderia does today. McLaren was much the same.

What we see in F1 now is utterly unprecidented, a Scuderia "Lock Out" on the series that has never been seen before.

If Michael Schumacher had never happened, and Ferrari were in this position (not that they probably would be without Schumacher), but if, and another driver had the support of the team in the way he does now, then of course they would stand a very good chance of becoming Champion.

Rubens is no slouch, he is a fine Formula One driver, but he is paired with one of the top 5 F1 drivers of history in a team that is at it's peak in broad terms of reliability and performance and that when the need arises focuses it's attention and championship thrust on Schumacher. No detriment to Michael, but no wonder he struggles in comparison.

No Schumacher, well then, perhaps we would have seen RB, DC, KR and maybe even JPM as Champions already. Unfortunately for these guys they aren't Michael Schumacher in Michael Schumacher's seat. But if he wasn't there. . . .

For DC it is probably too late (barring some kind of epiphany next season), RB may well scoop a Championship after MS retires, he is young enough and good enough to carry the mantle in Schumacher's absence. KR is a man for the future but he may well face some tough opposition in the other young chargers, and JPM is one of those "maybe if everything is right" drivers in my mind. Perhaps he will, perhaps he wont.

In ten years time I'm fairly convinced we will be looking back on the "post-Schumacher" era as a golden one of competition in F1 when anyone of 5 or 6 drivers could scoop titles.

It should be great fun. . .

Two intelligent posts in one message stream. I can't stand it. You guys are exceeding my expectations.

NICE POST BorderReiver - Damn nice post!

[HBoss]

Originally posted by karlth

(...)Anyway a driver who struggles against Brundle in his 4th year of racing is certainly not near the top of the ladder.

That is only one year from twelve Barrichello has had so far.
It's the same as saying Montoya from 2002 is all there is to him. You need to find a better perspective.

[karlth]

Originally posted by HBoss
That is only one year from twelve Barrichello has had so far.

I frankly don't see what year in particular is supposed to have revealed Rubens' greatness? Are thinking about his Stewart years when competing against Magnusen, Herbert and Verstappen?

Rubens Barrichello is a good driver with occasional flashes of greatness but that's it. Just like Ralf and David.

It's the same as saying Montoya from 2002 is all there is to him. You need to find a better perspective.

2002? Montoya outpaced his strong teammate in 2002. I don't see how that compares.

[HBoss]

Originally posted by karlth


I frankly don't see what year in particular is supposed to have revealed Rubens' greatness? Are thinking about his Stewart years when competing against Magnusen, Herbert and Verstappen?

Rubens Barrichello is a good driver with occasional flashes of greatness but that's it. Just like Ralf and David.



2002? Montoya outpaced his strong teammate in 2002. I don't see how that compares.

I never made any single mention to his 'greatness', you have just brought it up by yourself, so just go ahead and drop it. You said he hasn't had a good year, "Calling Ruben's season a good one is quite a stretch". Well, what is it then? He has 2 wins, 3 poles, 3 fastest laps, 13 podiums. In all these numbers, Barrichello only loses to Schumacher, who has been having his best season ever.

Maybe Barrichello's season hasn't been great, given how he has underperformed compared to Schumacher, but to not even admit it is a good season is simply unreasonable and silly.

Montoya in 2002 only scored 8 more points than Ralf and hardly beat him in qualifying. And it was Ralf who won the only race for Williams in 2002. He didn't really have much to write home about. But one would have to be quite a fool to judge Montoya by what he did in that year only, which is the same as judging Barrichello only by what he has done in 1996.

For your interest, how many other drivers have ever scored 13 podiums in a single season? Or in 16 consecutive races?

[Simioni]

Originally posted by karlth


Based on what?

He barely edged Irvine and Brundle at Jordan. What has happened since?

Based on just about any criteria.

RB might have barely beat Irvine, but he was only 23 when the partneship ended. Quite inconsistent and with a lot in his head. As for Brundle, he crushed him for most of the season until he fell apart with jordan and began to get beat in the last quarter of the season. Meanwhile DH hardly ever got an upper-hand over any of his teammates, other than JV himself.

At Stewart RB scored good results more regularly than either Hill or Villeneuve did with lesser cars. Though Hill did win Belgium 98 and morally Hungary 97 which was exceptional, they were one-offs.

Rubens is a better overtaker, less mistake-prone than DH was. He was and is better in the rain than JV, and better at setting the car up. And IMO, quicker overall than both.

[George Bailey]

Originally posted by karlth

RB like Ralf and David can manage a few great races each season but that is it.

Originally posted by karlth

2002? Montoya outpaced his strong teammate in 2002. I don't see how that compares.

I like this. When the objective is to put RB well into the 2nd tier RS isn't much of a driver over the course of a season. When the objective is to put JPM into the top tier, RS becomes a strong teammate.

I'm not sure beating RS some of the time is any more of an achievement than smoking Herbert - and frankly I'm not sure how anyone else would go about ranking the two feats. It's all conjecture.





I would bet that RB would beat nearly all, maybe even all of the current drivers in F1 to the WDC if you benched MS and put them one by one into the other Ferrari seat. RB doesn't always shine brightly, but he rarely sucks either.

I don't know how many guys he would not beat, and why should anyone care what I think because I'm a idiot watching the races on TV. Why should (how could) I know the result of a season that wasn't run?