50 replies to this topic

[humphries]

Although a post about a car, a Riley rebodied in 1947, only emerged recently on 8W I think there might be mileage in it and in order not to tangle it all up with the on-going 8W stuff I am attempting to spin it off. Also I am attempting to expand the topic to include other mysteries of this period 1945-1949.

Jean-Maurice, who must be one of the leading experts concerning races held on the continent during this period, 1945-1949, posted a photo of a very streamlined car that has turned out to be the Riley of Pierre Ferry. Ferry puchased this car, a TT Sprite, from Arthur Dobson and raced it before WW2. It appeared in a 1945 Bois du Boulogne race and it had been modified aerodynamically to some degree. Later this Riley got the full treatment.

In the David Styles book "Sporting Rileys. The Forgotten Champions" there is a photograph ( page 273 ) of the fully-streamlined Riley with a caption indicating that the car had once been owned by Ecurie Eudel, run by Jean Eudel and Guy Lapchin, and that the streamlined body was its fifth. This is incorrect according to J-M.

Some queries.

In the Styles book the car was photographed at Montlhery in 1948 with the unnamed driver beaming proudly. Can anyone identify this driver and at which Montlhery meeting the photograph was taken?

Jacques Peron drove this car on occasion under the guise of "Jacques". Can anyone supply more details about this driver who went on to handle OSCAs and Ferraris?

Also Raoul Forestier drove Rileys before the war and a Jacques Forestier drove one of the ex- Ecurie Eudel, Pourtout modified Sprites ( also Styles p273 ) post-war. Does anybody know if these two were related?

John

[GIGLEUX]

John, there only three events at Montlhéry in 1948:

-30/05/1948 The Grand Prix de Paris for F1 cars and the Coupe d'Argent for racing and also sports cars 1100 cc s/c and 2000 cc u/s. One Riley was entered in the racing cars category, the one of Vernet but with n°18 and we know it was not the "good" Riley. He finished 7th 4 laps behind the winner, Trintignant (Simca-Gordini).

12/09/1948 The 12 hours of Paris where a Riley was entered: the car of Vernet "5696 RP9" with n°39 and driven by Vernet/Trouis.

-10/10/1948 The Coupe du Salon for F1 cars and the Course de vitesse "sport" in which you have Georges Trouis with n°12, same number as on the picture in Styles's book. I haven't a picture of the car, so was it Vernet's one or Ferry's one, I don't know.

In the fifties Trouis was to drive DBs and Kiefts.

[uechtel]

!!!Bing!!!

Seeing the word "Meteor" forces me to join in immediately.

Jean-Maurice, do you know whether Chardonnet actually took part in the race and what was his result?

Sorry for the interruption...

[GIGLEUX]

Markus, no trace of Chardonnet in the results which does not mean he did not start! Chardonnet, I think I wrote you that, was with Chaboud and Loyer one of the"creators" of the M.E.T.E.O.R. company who entered in France disguised Veritas (don't forget the ban). Two cars were at first entered at Angoulême in 1948 for Chaboud and Loyer (n°14 and 16) but did not appear and where replaced by a Simca and a Cisitalia. One week later the two cars appeared at Reims with the same drivers; Chaboud finished third and loyer retired. Entries were also taken for the GP du Comminges (14 Chaboud 18 Chardonnet 34 Loyer). Chaboud and Loyer started but didn't finish.



Here is Chaboud during practice at the Comminges GP. Please excuse the bad quality of the document.

[uechtel]

Jean-Maurice, again a BIIIIG thank you for this! You never end to impress me.

The picture quality is absolutely sufficient to recognize Kling´s car. Simply great!

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
[B]Markus, no trace of Chardonnet in the results which does not mean he did not start! Chardonnet, I think I wrote you that, was with Chaboud and Loyer one of the"creators" of the M.E.T.E.O.R. company who entered in France disguised Veritas (don't forget the ban). Two cars were at first entered at Angoulême in 1948 for Chaboud and Loyer (n°14 and 16) but did not appear and where replaced by a Simca and a Cisitalia.

yes, no wonder, as Kling´s car was in action at Karlsruhe that day!

One week later the two cars appeared at Reims with the same drivers; Chaboud finished third and loyer retired. Entries were also taken for the GP du Comminges (14 Chaboud 18 Chardonnet 34 Loyer). Chaboud and Loyer started but didn't finish.

Yes, you have written me these results. That´s why I asked for the Montlhery race.

[humphries]

Jean-Maurice, you are going to love me ( British sarcasm ).

So, it is Georges Trouis smiling away in the No12 Riley, but on which chassis the fully streamlined Riley was developed is not yet proven.

Going back to 1947 I'm a bit perplexed about "Jacques", Jacques Peron and Jacques Forestier. In the Nimes programme, 1 June 1947, the driver for Riley #11 is listed as Jacques yet in the Black Book the #11 driver is listed as Jacques Forestier, but Jacques in the results. Later at the Coupe de Paris, Bois de Boulogne meeting 27 July 1947 Riley #2 in the Black Book is Jacques Forestier in the entry list, "Jacques" in the results, and the Black Book states that the original driver of #2 was to have been Jacques Peron, who I now know to be "Jacques". ( Are you with me Dr Watson? ) What name appears in the Coupe de Paris programme entry list?

Like I said in the opening post, just who is this Jacques Forestier? A relation of Raoul Forestier who was racing Rileys right up to the war or, heaven forbid, has the name Jacques triggered off a repeated mistake where "Jacques" has been transformed into Jacques Forestier.

In 1946 a Riley was campaigned in the opening voiturette races by a Brunot ( no forename given but it had better not be Jacques!!! ) until the 9 June 1946 at St Cloud when in the Black Book he was joined by another Riley. In the Black Book entry list this is Jacques Forestier but again becomes "Jacques" on the grid and in the results. But, as already stated, I have been told "Jacques" was Jacques Peron. At Nantes 28 July 1946 it is Jacques in the entry list but he non-started as did the only Riley entered for Jacques Forestier at the Bois de Boulogne meeting 6 October 1946.

So is "Jacques" Jacques Forestier or Jacques Peron or did they both use the pseudonym "Jacques"?
Was there ever a Jacques Forestier?

Do I sense wry smiles, the slow shaking of heads and the rolling of eyes heavenwards. In the deep waters you get all sorts of weird fish, you know.

John Dory

( Trying to fluff it up a bit Twinny, but not too much Bira! )

[alessandro silva]

I do not think that a Jacques Forestier ever existed.
I think it is a mistake putting together Raoul Forestier and "Jacques" because of the same kind of car.

[Adam F]

John,

Amongst my programmes are a couple which clarify the "Jacques" question :-

]St Cloud 1946 Programme

There is also a photo of "Jacques" shown :-



Similarly at Nantes........



Also, I can confirm that the 1947 Coupe de Paris programme does also show Jacques :-



It does seem, as Alessandro says, that Jacques Forestier is a creation of the Black Books.

Adam Ferrington

[GIGLEUX]

John with all your references to the Black books, I am going to think you sleep with one of them under the pillow and a photo of Sheldon on the table bedside! Sheldon is one think, the blackbooks another and Gigleux a third one. You know Sheldon, he can be stubborn like a tax collector. I sent him my texts and sources, he mixed them and when I received his texts for correction I had the surprise to see that "Jacques" was transformed in a mythical Jacques Forestier and that because for the 1946 year he made confusion between Jacques and Forestier, both entering Rileys and, having a Jacques Forestier he continued with him in 1947. I corrected once more and you know the result. What I can say you is that in all my numerous sources of the 1946-1947 period (programmes, magazines, L'Equipe and local newspapers) I always have Jacques except for the 1947 Coupe de Paris, one time L'Equipe in the entry lists mentionned Peron (Riley) and one day latter Jacques (Riley). So I began to think that Jacques and Jacques Peron were the same man and put it in my notes. (That is also why in the blackbook you have the three as Pauk didn't understand what I wrote). Then some years ago P.Abeillon phoned me and said: "I just met the widow of Jacques Peron, do you know under which name he began to race?" Jacques I replied, "How do you know this!!"

[starlet]

John - Adam,

With the Adam's pic of " Jacques ", I can confirmed that it is well Jacques Peron.

Jacques Peron was born in Paris on September 8, 1912.
He was a French industrialist.
As you wrote it, John, he drove several Ferrari and Osca, and he had of good relationship with Enzo Ferrari.

[starlet]

Oops, Jean-Maurice has been more quick ...

[GIGLEUX]

From the book of my old friend Maurice Louche: "Trinitignant-Wimille, un champion et son maiître",
two views of the start of the finale of the Coupe de Paris. With n°2 you have de Riley of Jacques (Peron). As Maurice have the Blackbooks, of course the two pictures are captionned ...n°2 Forestier's Riley. The way to have history rewritten...

[GIGLEUX]

L'Equipe



L'Equipe



PARIS-PRESSE

[humphries]

Jean-Maurice, Adam and "starlet".........thanks.

Well, that's that sorted then, well almost.....!

In the Styles book there is a photo ( page 273 ) presumably of "Jacques" in what could to be a modified Pourtout-bodied car. Now, is that actually one of the three original Ex-Eudel Pourtout Rileys or is it a revamp of the Arthur Dobson Riley?

Do we know the forename of Brunot and is it safe to say that this driver is not in any way connected with Robert Brunet, a prominent pre-war driver? Some drivers found their circumstances radically changed after the war. Not all of them were young enough to continue at the higher levels of the sport and some no longer had the means. The programme compilers hopefully got it right. Any pics of his Riley?

Just a word about the Black Books. The publishing of these books, as many prominent TNFers have said, was a tremendous leap forward for all those interested in the history of the sport. Most people did not realise how little they knew until the Black Books appeared. They are not perfect and any 2nd edition must have known errors put right.

As Jean-Maurice and Adam will know Paul Sheldon could be very stubborn. Thank goodness he was! Paul was determined to get them published and no amount of dithering by some of us would deflect him from his deadlines. The stamina required of Paul to format everything, often starting from scratch, still amazes me. If some of us had had our way many folk would still be blissfully (?) unaware of the existence of many races. I wanted to include all major events at Brooklands, Donington, Crystal Palace and elsewhere even if they involved handicaps. Paul said "no" and that was that despite my mutterings. Mind you, I think he is more amenable now.

If anybody else can spot mistakes, or make additions, for the period 1945-1949 please let us know, but proof will be required to ensure revisions. Information on the Circuit de Cadours 1948 and 1949 would be appreciated.

John

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by humphries
The stamina required of Paul to format everything, often starting from scratch, still amazes me.

...and all without the aid of even a simple word-processing program

[humphries]

Such is the paucity of my information about the Cadours races of 1948 and 1949 that I only have the following.

1948 18 Sept. The winner was Rene Mauries in his Simca-Gordini. Also in the race were MM. Lecerf, Armichen and Galy.

1949 18 August (?). The winner was Roger Gerbout's BMW-engined RG Spl in 55' 20" ( 80.32 kmh) with an aggregate time for the two 10 lap heats. Duval and Galy were in attendance.

What French magazine would be likely to have a report?

In Britain the reports of Continental races between 1946-1949 were often brief and Cadours gets no mention.

Of course, "Autosport" was still a twinkle in the eye of Gregor Grant.

"MotorSport" was mainly parochial; pages on British hill-climbs and sprints, little on the proper races in France or elsewhere. Bill Boddy was naturally trying to establish a link between the pre-WW2 era and the early post-war period. As racing cars emerged from lock-up garages, from farmyard barns and from piles of bits he was keen to confirm the identity and the lineage. With his dream of Brooklands making a return as a motor-racing venue he was enthusiastic in his reporting. However, when the dream began to evaporate it became evident that he had left his heart back at The Track. When reminiscing on pre-war days he always seemed happier and more committed.

Fortunately for us a tumbleweed of a man stopped by, agreed to keep in touch, and continued bowling around Europe. It was "Jenks". Starting with his Reviews he developed into the very best of motor sport journalists.

The race reports of this period in "The Autocar" were limited and a little staid. To me it feels that there was an air of indifference.

Perhaps the best reporting was to be found in "The Motor". "Grande Vitesse" was boundless in his enthusiasm. It was he who provided the most details although he was prone to report tittle-tattle as fact.

Times were hard in the Kingdom during the aftermath of the war; austerity, and restrictions, even on travel. Little wonder that an event like Cadours was missed in 1948 and 1949. If it had not been for the death of the popular Raymond Sommer the place would have remained unknown for even longer.

Like I say, any help would be appreciated.

John

[alessandro silva]

Sports daily L'Equipe should have the reports of the Cadours races. If Jean-Maurice cannot provide it, the most accessible copy is with the Library of the Pompidou Centre in Paris.
No registration, no fees. You just go in and ask for the relevant micro-film.

[GIGLEUX]

I have Cadours 1949 an is a little surprised to see John asking for.Now the Rileys:



Here it is Saint-Cloud 1946 and behind the Simca-Gordini of Brault you can see the Riley of BRUNOT
-definitively Brunot and no link with Brunet. Rather classical Riley and nothing to do with the Eudel's car and the one of Ferry in 1945.

[dretceterini]

Any chance of a picture of the three 750cc Testadoros built by Guisti and Roselli?

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
John, there only three events at Montlhéry in 1948:

-30/05/1948 The Grand Prix de Paris for F1 cars and the Coupe d'Argent for racing and also sports cars 1100 cc s/c and 2000 cc u/s. One Riley was entered in the racing cars category, the one of Vernet but with n°18 and we know it was not the "good" Riley. He finished 7th 4 laps behind the winner, Trintignant (Simca-Gordini).

12/09/1948 The 12 hours of Paris where a Riley was entered: the car of Vernet "5696 RP9" with n°39 and driven by Vernet/Trouis.

-10/10/1948 The Coupe du Salon for F1 cars and the Course de vitesse "sport" in which you have Georges Trouis with n°12, same number as on the picture in Styles's book. I haven't a picture of the car, so was it Vernet's one or Ferry's one, I don't know.

In the fifties Trouis was to drive DBs and Kiefts.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
I have Cadours 1949 an is a little surprised to see John asking for.Now the Rileys:



Here it is Saint-Cloud 1946 and behind the Simca-Gordini of Brault you can see the Riley of BRUNOT
-definitively Brunot and no link with Brunet. Rather classical Riley and nothing to do with the Eudel's car and the one of Ferry in 1945.

Is that the same Gordini that won it's class at Le Mans in 1939?

[GIGLEUX]

Stu, the car which won its class at Le Mans and the Index of Performance was registred 4097 RM6 and chassis N° 810404. After the war it was usually driven by José Scaron. The car of Brault was a 1938 model registred 725 RL8 chassis N° 803247.

[dretceterini]

Any idea if their is any realtion to a J.P.Brault who's father was in the car business? J.P. is an antique toy car collector who lives in Paris, and would be about 55 year old..

[humphries]

Jean-Maurice

Thanks for PM and the continued lifting of veils.

Back to Rileys. Does this mean there are five Riley TT Sprites that have raced in France? The three Pourtout cars, the Ex-Arthur Dobson Ferry-modded car and this original?

John

[alessandro silva]

#5 is Brunot's Riley at the Bois de Boulogne 1945. Seems an ex-Eudel car.

Brunot's car at Marseille 1946 #27 a few weeks before St-Cloud.

a photo of the satart at StCloud showing Jacques' catr, first row to the left.

[GIGLEUX]

I found another source about the French Rileys mainly before WW2 (in Le Fanatique de L'automobile), i.e. with the Eudel team.
It is seems that 7 Rileys came in France in 1936-1938: five racing Sprites, a Lynx torpedo and a Kestrel berline.
Of the five Sprites we can trace four of them:
-1936 Guy Lapchin who raced a 1100 Riley at Le Mans in 1935 bought a Sprite directly at Coventry.In 1937 the car returned to the works and was bought by Raoul Forestier. It received a Pourtout body and was registred 7142 RK7. The car was sold to de Bodard who raced at Le Mans 1939 with Just Vernet who prepared the car. This is the car used by Brunot in 1946.



GP du Forez. Brunot 7142 RK7

The matter of the Eudel's team cars is that the beautiful body was by far too heavy: the cars weight something like 975 kg versus 575 kg for the Rileys of Coventry. So at Saint-Cloud was it the same car without its Pourtout body or another one?

-1937 always with Pourtout body a car bought by Jean Trévoux: 2086 RL. I don't know what happened to it.

-1937 Pourtout body. Used by Marcel Contet. 2087 RL used by Jacques in 1946. I think it was prepared by Vernet. It reappeared in 1948 in the hands of Vernet in sports car trim and with a new registration (after changing of owner?) 5696 RP9.



1946 GP du Forez Jacques.



1946 GP du Forez Jacques. No registration plate.



1946 Saint Cloud Jacques 2087 RL



1948 12 Heures de Paris Vernet-Trouis

-1937 Pourtout body. Lapchin. First registration 8344 W1 and then 2636 W1. The W indicates temporary plates used by garages or constructors. It is said it was the car sold to Ferry (in contradiction with what declared Ferry. Maybe this one prefered to indicate a more glorious origin to his car).

[alessandro silva]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
So at Saint-Cloud was it the same car without its Pourtout body or another one?

It looks to me the same car without front fenders. The radiator cap and the bonnet straps are in the same position.

[GIGLEUX]

An interesting view of the start of the Coupe Robert Benoist at the Bois de Boulogne in 1945.

N°2 is Gordini with his 1939 Le Mans's car. N°17 the Bugatti of Creuchet. Between them the Riley of Ferry and with n°5 Brunot's Riley.
N°3 is Robert Cayeux with the 1937 Simca Gordini (823885) n°14 Boucard's Samson and n°9 Serge Pozzoli's Lombard.

[humphries]

J-M & Alex

Sorry for the slow response but I have been offline for a few days. Computer switch. Now I'm up and running, well, up and hobbling.

Slowly the possible individual Riley histories are emerging. Your photograph resources are very useful.

There were two small meetings held at Montlhery on 02/06/1947 and 18/04/1948. The programme entry lists might shed some light on any Riley ownership. I do not have the programmes but it is at these kind of meetings that the usual "also-rans" get a look-in. A Riley was at the 18/04/1948 meeting driven by Grange ( the third Pourtout car? ), and if other Riley drivers were present or entered for these meetings it might establish more evidence of lineage.

John

[alessandro silva]

On June 8th [not June 2nd] 1947, Jacques drove a Riley in the racing car race [voiturettes]. I do not know if it was his 46 car or the Ferry streamline. There was no Riley in the sports car race [up to 2L].
I think that Jean-Maurice is out for a while for computer problems.

[GIGLEUX]

On 08/06/1947 at Montlhéry was organized "La Journéee automobile de l'AGACI".
Jacques was entered in two races:
- course "petites" cylindrées" which was certainly open to the usual 1100 cc s/c and 2000cc u/s
n°12 Jacques Riley, in fact and certainly the picture we have in Styles's book. He finished third.
-sport 1ère catégorie. Always with n°12. Fifteen cars started, twelve finished but nothing about
Jacques.
Always at Montlhéry, the 26th of October 1947 Coupes d'Automne:
-Coupe de l'ACIF for sports cars 1100 s/c 2000 u/s we have n°4 Grangé Riley, but it seems he dna.

I don't know anything about a race at Montlhéry on 18/04/1948. Have you more precisions?

[alessandro silva]

Jean-Maurice, already repaired? Send me please your new e-mail address.

The 18/4/1948 meeting at Monthléry only comprised sports car races. Meyrat won the big cars class in the ex-Grignard Delahaye from Louveau's Delage.
Grangé won the 1500cc clas in a Riley.
Unfortunately the complete results I had were stolen with my briefcase in Paris last June.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by alessandro silva


Brunot's car at Marseille 1946 #27 a few weeks before St-Cloud.

Sorry to have to interrupt again, but on that picture I have seen another of my beloved BMWs and trying to identify it from Sheldon delivers No. 27 Raymond Sommer.

Now I remembered, that I have already a picture of him, found in Halwart Schrader´s book about the BMW company, where he states, that this is Sommer at Marseilles.



So far I have not been aware of this, but you can clearyl see the No. 27 car in the background and of course Sommer´s car is also much brighter than the car on the other picture.

So is SHeldon wrong and No 27 could be Martin instead, or does the Sommer picture show him at another event?

Ah, and I see, that I am not the only one who has a problem to e-mail to Jean-Maurice

[uechtel]

And a second question:

Who drove the No. 27 car? From Sheldon I would suggest Martin, but as you can see



his car had the steering wheel on the left, too!

[alessandro silva]

martin and sommer at marseille 1946. martin's car has dark front fender. #27 is Brunot's Riley!
all sheldon Marseille numbers are screwed up.
martin was 11 and sommer 41!

[uechtel]

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying this!

And keep on posting those lovely pictures

[RAP]

What an marvelous thread ! Thanks to all who are contributing - great pictures and I really appreciate the programme scans. Keep it going!! Could I ask for more any more info on entry & results for the races at the 8 June 47 Montlhery meeting - I had not heard of it until it appeared in the 8W story of the French Championship.

RAP

[alessandro silva]

RAP I thought I also had given to 8w the statistics with my article on the 47 French championship. Here they are with photo.
Challenges de l’ A.C.I.F. et de l’A.G.A.C.I.
June 8, 1947, Monthléry

BIG CARS
16 laps, 100,534 km.

∑ Organizer: Automobile Club de l’Ile de France & A.G.A.C.I
∑ Starting time: 17.00
∑ Weather: sunny

Entrants:
52. Jean Judet, Maserati 4CL, driver, 1566
53. Maurice Varet, Delage D6.70, Ecurie Gersac, 880005
54. Pierre Larrue, Delahaye MS, driver, 60116
55. ? Morra, Bugatti T?
56. ? Lourdin, Bugatti T?
57. Jean Salis, Maserati 26M, driver 2515
58, Edmond Mouche, Talbot T150C, driver 82930
61. Charles Huc, Bugatti T35/T51A driver 51128
59, 60, DNA
Six starters

Results:
1. Maurice Varet, Delage D6.70, 16 laps in 46’11”7, 130.578kph
2. Edmond Mouche, Talbot T150C in 46’12”
3. Giuseppe Morra, Bugatti, in 48’12”7
4. Pierre Larrue, Delahaye, in 48’31”7

Fastest lap: Edmond Mouche, 2’45”2

DNF
Not known.


VOITURETTES
10 laps, 62.830 km.

∑ 1100cc s/c 2000cc u/s
∑ Organizer: A.G.A.C.I & A.C.I.F.
∑ Starting time: 15.45
∑ Weather: sunny

Entrants:
4. Alessandro Benzoni-Conza Simca 8-Dého Spl. driver
7. Alexander Orley Todd-BMW Spl driver
10. ? Gesmer Salmson driver
12. "Jacques" Riley 1.5/4 driver
27. Robert-A. Bouchard Salmson GS driver
28. Jean Ondet Amilcar C6 driver
29. Victor Polledry Aston-Martin driver
30. Jean Blanc Salmson driver
31. Charles Thiel Thiel Spl driver
32. ? Revest Bugatti T? driver
33. ? Herbet Guyot Spl driver
34. René Berté Berté-Opel Spl driver Ch. 1
35. André Bossut DB-Citroen driver ch. 1
36. Paul Bodet Maserati 4CM, driver 1526
37. ?
38. Robert Gerbout Lombard AL3 1500 Spl driver
39. “Prince Igor” SIMCA-Gordini T11 Equipe SIMCA-Gordini 02GC
41. ? Creuchet Bugatti T35 driver
42. Maurice Monnier Monnier-Fiat 1500 Spl driver
43. Gabriel Lascaut Salmson GS driver
44. ? Deschamps Bugatti T? driver
62. “Jeff “ Amilcar driver

Starters: thirteen

DNS/DNA
40. Francis Guérin Guérin-de Coucy 1100 driver

Results:
1. Paul Bodet Maserati 4CM, 10 laps in 29'58"4
2. “Pr. Igor” Simca Gordini T11, 30'25"7
3. "Jacques" Riley 1.5/4, 32’19”3
4. Gabriel Lascaut Salmson GS, 32’30”7
5. Réné Berté Berté-Opel, Spl. 9 laps in 33’22”4
6. Jean Ondet Amilcar C6, 9 laps in 35’40”
7. “Jeff “ Amilcar, 8 laps in 31’25”
8. Robert Gerbout Lombard AL3, 8 laps in 31’47”
9. Alexander Orley Todd-BMW Spl, 7 laps in 21’44”
10. Charles Thiel, Thiel Spl, 7 laps in 30’31”

Fastest Lap: Bodet 2'56"


SMALL SPORTS CARS 10 laps 15 starters
1.Deutsch DB-Citroen 123.072 kph
2. Crovetto BMW 328
3. de Montrémy SIMCA-Monopole
4. Bossut DB-Citroen
5. Flahault FIAT-Gordini
6. Lacroix SIMCA Spl
7. Lemoine Morgan 3W
8. Bottreau Bugatti
9. Meo FIAT
10. Desir SIMCA
11. Lesage Morgan 3W
12. Lepelletier JL

BIG SPORTS CARS 16 laps 7 starters
1. Ciroux Bugatti 109.900 kph
2. Vedor Talbot
3. Rigodon Delahaye 135CS
4. Polledry Alfa-Romeo 1750
5. Meyrat Delahaye 135CS

[humphries]

More clarification needed if anyone can advise.

In 1947 there was the I Grand Prix de Strasbourg but was this the correct title or a press invention? I believe the race may have been called I Circuit Automobile Internationale de Vitesse de Strasbourg.

Recently I bought " Les Grandes Heures de Montlhery ". A very well-produced and atmospheric book. I was hoping that it would contain the definitive list of meetings held at the circuit but it did not. This is perhaps not surprising as it seems comtemporary reports varied the race titles. Coupes de Paris, Coupes de Vitesse, Grands Prix de Paris, Coupes du Salon and Grands Prix du Salon etc. Also during the early post-war period some of these titles strayed to the Bois du Boulogne. Has anybody got a handle on all this?

I visited Montlhery once and I was very impressed by its scale. Let's hope it survives the developers.

[alessandro silva]

Cohin calls it Grand Prix de Strasbourg,
Abeillon calls it Circuit de Strasbourg,
I found in a local newspaper (in German!) II Grand Prix d'Alsace,
I think we have to wait for Jean-Maurice, who, I know, has the official programme.


For the time being enjoy a famous photo of the start:

[starlet]

Jean-Maurice gave me the answer to our question :

It was the Circuit Automobile Internationale de Vitesse de Strasbourg.

Come back quickly, Jean-Maurice. We all need you !

[uechtel]

Yes we do!

[RAP]

First a big "thank you" to Alessandro for your very detailed information to my request on 8 June 47 meeting. I have just seen it having been away all week.

Like Humphries I too am confused by the Montlhery meetings and races. Here is my list for the period 1947-52. I would be grateful for all corrections -
MONTLHERY

1947
8 June Challenges de l’ A.C.I.F. et de l’A.G.A.C.I.
Big cars, Small cars, Big Sports, Small sports
26 Oct Coupes d'Automne - Coupe De L’A.G.A.C.I (2000u/s,1100s/c)
Coupe du Congres Technique (Big cars)
Coupe de l’ACIF (Sports 2000/1100s/c)
16 Nov GP du Salon (F1)

1948
6 April Sports, Touring (? Should this be 18 April)
30 May GP de Paris (F1), Coupe d’Argent (2000cc/1100s/c)
12 Sept Paris 12 hours
10 Oct GP du Salon (F1) Course de Vitesse (Sports)

1949
24 April GP de Paris (F1) , Coupe d’Argent (2000cc/1100s/c )
5-6 June Bol d’Or
9 Oct GP du Salon (F1), Sports car race

1950
26 March Coupe de l’USA (Sports)
30 April GP de Paris (F1) Coupe de Argent (2000 Rcg &Sports?), 500cc race
4-5 June Bol d’Or
23 July Paris 12 hours
8 Oct Coupe du Salon (Sports)


1951
(GP de Paris held in Bois de Boulogne)
7 April Coupe d’Or 500cc
7 Oct Coupe du Salon (Sports) Production car race

1952
23 March 500cc, 750cc
30 March Coupe de Vitesse (sports) Touring car race
27 April Coupe de Printemps (Spts & Rcg) Touring car race
25 May GP de Paris (F2)
8-9 June Bol d’Or
21 Sept Coupe de l’Automne (Sports & Rcg +2000cc) Touring cars
5 Oct Coupe du Salon (sports) Production car race

RAP

[humphries]

As with the 1947 Strasbourg race my research has led me to query some more race titles, this time in 1946.

On 19 May 1946 it has been recorded that I Grand Prix du Forez took place but local papers refer to this race as the Grand Prix d'Andrezieux. There is also a subsidiary title, Coupe des Industries Metallurgiques de la Loire. Can J-M or anyone else confirm and add information?

Likewise, on 7 July 1946 the III Grand Prix de Bourgogne was held at Dijon. The title may be correct but I have seen the race referred to as the I Coupe de la Ville de Dijon. The support race for the smaller racing cars had a title as well. According to my notes this race had the really great title - I Coupe de Grand Vins. With a title like that one can safely assume that much of the first prize was very quaffable!



John

[Adam F]

John,

Re. the 1946 Forez race, I have the following "mini placard" for the meeting which as you see refers to the "Circuit du Forez"



However, Frederic Reydellet's book on the Forez races refers to the Grand Prix Automobile du Forez, with individual races being named Coupe de la Ville de Sainte-Etienne (for Petites Cylindrees) and Coupe des Industries Metallurgiques de la Loire (for Grosse Cylindrees).

I assume that the Circuit du Forez name refers to the name of the circuit, but maybe Jean-Maurice can clarify.

ADAM

[Hugo Boecker]

Great what you are doing here to bring us information about all the French racing of a nearly forgotten period of racing.

Your knowledge must be immense.

Please help us to do something similar for German races up to 53. To solve some riddles we need your help.

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=73945

We think Orleys car was in Germany but he is on the Aix list - perhaps with one of Balsa's car

Thank you.

[GIGLEUX]

About Circuit du Forez.
In french "circuit" has the same signification that in english. But in that case it is in fact the name of the event, which event included several races which had their own names (is it clear?)

[ERault]

I tried to have a go on the french Rileys. Jean-Maurice said four chassis were bodied by Pourtout for Ecurie Eudel, but I only spoted three "french Rileys" racing together. I compiled a racing record to the best of my knowledge. Details on the cars come from photographic evidences (sources : this very thread, Styles's Sporting Rileys, Moity's 2 volumes 24 Heures du Mans; Huet's Gordini, Blight's French Sports Car Revolution and Gaillard's DB).

Racing Record
1937 june 6, 3 Heures de Marseille, Lapchin
3 Heures de Marseille, Contet
1937 june 19-20, 24 Heures du Mans, Trévoux / Lapchin, Pourtout, (Moity p163)
24 Heures du Mans, Forrestier / Caron, 7142 RK 7, Pourtout (Moity p164)
1937 july 4, ACF Montlhéry, Contet, 2086 or 87 RL, Pourtout (Styles p154)
ACF Montlhéry, Forrestier, 7142 RK 7, Pourtout, (Styles p154)
ACF Montlhéry, Lapchin, 2086 or 87 RL, Pourtout (Styles p154)
1937 sept 19, Coupe d'Automne Montlhéry, Forrestier

1938 may 22, Antwerpen, Forrestier
1938 june 5-6, Bol d'Or, Contet, 2087 RL, Pourtout, (Blight p452)
1938 june 18-19, 24 Heures du Mans, Ferry / Noiraux, 2086 RL, cycle-wing, (Moity p173)
24 Heures du Mans, Forrestier / Caron, Pourtout (Moity p175)
1938 sept 11, 12 Heures de Paris, Ferry / Noiraux
12 Heures de Paris, Vernet / Bodard
12 Heures de Paris, Forrestier / Caron

1939 may 7, Coupe de la Commission Sportive, Brunot
7142 RK 7, Pourtout (Huet p40) but maybe more than 1 Riley ?
1939 june 3-4, Bol d'Or, J. Paul, 2087 RL, Pourtout (Styles p155)
1939 june 17-18, 24 Heures du Mans, Vernet / Bodard
new registration 3913 RM, cycle-wings (ex-7142 RK 7 ?) (Moity p182)
1939 aug 6, Comminges, Brunot
Comminges, Horvilleur

1945 sept 9, Bois de Boulogne, Brunot, Pourtout (post 24 and 27)
Bois de Boulogne, Ferry, "classical Riley", (post 27)

1946 april 24, Nice, Brunot
1946 may 13, Marseille, Brunot
1946 may 19, Forez, Peron, 2087 RL "Cigare" (post 25)
Forez, Brunot, 7142 RK 7, Pourtout, (post 25)
1946 june 9, St Cloud, Peron, 2087 RL "Cigare" (post 25 and Styles p273)
St Cloud, Brunot, "classical Riley", (post 18), could be the cycle-wings car ? 1946 june 16, Belgium GP, Brunot, cycle-wings, (Gaillard p100)
1946 oct 10, Bois de Boulogne, Peron

1947 june 1, Nimes, Peron
1947 july 27, Bois de Boulogne, Peron, streamlined tank, (post 12)
1947 sept 21, ACF Lyon, Peron

1948 may 30, Montlhéry, Vernet
1948 july 11, 24 Heures de Spa, Vernet / Trouis
1948 sept 12, 12 Heures de Paris, Vernet / Trouis, ex-2087 RL now 5696 RP 9 (post 25)
1948 oct 10, Coupe de Vitesse, Trouis

Putative chassis history
(make sure to see Jean-Maurice's view post 25)

7142 RK 7
Regular Sprite chassis
1936 Lapchin ?
Pourtout body with big radiator opening for 1937
1937 to Raoul Forrestier
1938 assumed still with Forrestier
1939 to Vernet for himself (and Brunot ?)
1939 car seen at the Coupe de la Commission Sportive on may 7. Brunot raced a Riley there, but was he the only one ?
1939 24H du Mans, Vernet and Bodard raced a Riley registered 3913 RM with this radiator opening. The car had cycle-wing, but it looks very much like the Pourtout body without its covering wings. So may be 7142 RK 7, but why changing the registration ?
1945 to Brunot
raced by Brunot at Bois de Boulogne, back to full Pourtout body and 7142 RK 7 registration
1946 still with Brunot (seen at Forez)

2086 RL
TT Sprite chassis 44T-2407, Pourtout body with slim radiator opening
1937 Ecurie Eudel (bought by Trévoux according to Jean-Maurice)
1938 to Ferry, all different body with cyle-wings (seen at le Mans)
1945 probably still with Ferry, the car partly seen a Bois de Boulogne (post 27) could be the one seen at Le Mans 1938.
maybe then streamlined tank body ?

2087 RL
TT Sprite chassis 22T-1750, Pourtout body with slim radiator opening
1937 Ecurie Eudel
1938 ?
1939 seen at Bol d'Or with J. Paul, still full Pourtout body
1946 to Peron with cigare body
1947 ? Peron's car in 1947 had a tank body. Is it 2087 RL or another one ?
1948 to Vernet with the cigare body seen in 1946

8344 W1, then 2636 W1
from Jean-Maurice's post. I have nothing. Could it be temporary plates for car 7142 RK 7 or is it proven Pourtout bodied four cars ?

Comments
It would be great to have photos from the 12 Heures de Paris in 1938. Three cars raced :Ferry / Noiraux, Vernet / Bodard, Forrestier / Caron.
Ferry probably had 2086 RL he raced at le Mans some months before. The two others trouble me, as from what I gathered Vernet got his car (7142 RK 7) from Forrestier.

And what about the streamlined tank ? Humphries in the very first post connected it with Ferry, so maybe 2086 RL. It is shown post 12 racing in 1947 with Peron, who had 2087 RL the year before, so it could be the same car. Except one year later it was back with its 1946 body !

Over to you. Any comments, corrections, photos most welcome.

[fines]

Ahhh, thank you for reviving this thread! It reminds one of the days when TNF appeared to be something special, and one enjoyed every minute spent here...

[ERault]

Hum, tough crowd... No one, really ?

[clynos1]

As the proud owner of Riley 'TT' Sprite AVC19 / 2087-RL we very much appreciate the time and effort taken by all of the contributors in this thread.
We have long looked to find out what racing history the car had once it had left the ownership of Ecurie Eudel.
We had some details but now we have a more complete history.
One question; can any one list all of the races and events the car participated in during its time in France between 1936 and 1967 (when it was repatriated back to the UK by my wife's father Henry Geary, who by the way was an apprentice at Riley and ended up in the competitions department working on AVC19 which he eventually purchased in 1967.
Many thanks
David & Dianne Weeks