47 replies to this topic

[Tomoko]

I'd like to know anything about disappered RAM F1 team which was activated in 1970s-80s.
Anything is okay... I'm waiting for all of your infos!

[Jonathan]

Wasn't RAM the reminants of the old MARCH team that was sold off when MARCH started focusing their efforts on the the United States IndyCar (CART) series ?

Many members of the RAM team were also part of MARCHes return in the mid-to-late 1980ies with Leyton House sponsourship ? (My knowledge of this period is more than a little vague).

[Zawed]

All info taken from Doug Nye's "The History of the Grand Prix Car, 1966-85"

Formed in 1976 by John MacDoanld and Mick Ralph, running Brabham and March cars for want-to-be race drivers. Brought March back in 1981-1982, but started building their own cars in 1983 initially retaining the March name, using Cosworth power. Drivers in 1983 were Salazar, Jean Louis Schlesser, Jacques Villeneuve (Gilles brother) and Kenny Acheson. DNQ 12 times that year, best finish 12th in Kyalami by Acheson.

In 1984 MacDonald was able to use Hart turbo engines, drivers were Phillipe Alliot and Jonathon Palmer. Alliot DNQ twice, best (only) finishes 10th and two 11th, Palmer made 14 out of 15 races, with bests of an 8th and two 9th places, retiring 8 times. Mike Thackwell drove one race in Montreal.

1985 new car designed by Gustav Brunner (current technical director at Minardi, he's been around a long time!) but finances very tight and the team missed the last two races of the season in South Africa and Australia. Drivers were Alliot, Winkelhock (later killed that year in Sportscars) and Kenny Acheson. Alliot made 12 of 13 races, DNQ at monaco, but finished only once, 8th in Rio. Winklehock did 8 races, DNQ at Monaco, 13th at Rio, 12th at Ricard. Acheson did 3 races, retired 2 times failing to make the third (Holland).

Finances were very bad, and the team never made the 1986 GP field. So there you have it, Tomoko, hope thats of some use!

[Megatron]

They also had that niffty Skoal Bandit paint scheme.

[Paul Hartshorne]

Their final F1 car, the 1985 Hart-powered Ram 03 was converted to F3000 spec by fitting a DFV and run in early season 1986 F3000 races as the Ram 04. It was driven by Eliseo Salazar, but was unsuccessful.

I believe that John MacDonald was subsequently involved in the Superpower F3000 team that ran Phil Andrews and Paul Belmondo.

[JimE]

You can find a good article on Kenny Acheson which also covers his time with the RAM team on the 8W Quiz site at the bottom of the following page.
http://www.racer.dem.../8w/8w-999.html

[Megatron]

I saw a photo of Thackwell in testing in early 1986 with "Australia" on the side of the car and of course the team folded before that season, but I am wondering the specs on the test car. What powered it? Was it the 85 car or a new car, or an iterim B version?

[Mischa Bijenhof]

I assume this is the picture you're talking about?

(picture taken from 8w.forix.com, without permission)

This is Philippe Alliot in 1985:

(picture taken from forix.com, also without permission)

I'm not sure, but could it be the same car?

[Muzza]

Lovely livery.

The first picture (displaying Thackwell) was taken at Jacarepaguá.

[Twin Window]

After the Rio tests with Thack, RAM subsequently abandoned their F1 plans for '86 and converted the chassis to F3000 spec. The initial testing was undertaken by James Weaver, and RAM's former GP driver (from early '83) Eliseo Salazar secured the race seat although, IIRC, he missed the start of the season.

[Jeremy Jackson]

James drove it in practice at the International Trophy in 1986, but was excluded from the meeting, can't recall why.

Salazar drove it thereafter, but he had mostly DNQs, and I think the money ran out by the time of the Osterreichring race.

[gdecarli]

Mike Thackwell tested RAM Hart at Jacarepaguá on February 17th (best lap: 1'49"63), 18th (1'42"94) and 19th (1'40"00) 1986. In the same days, Senna, Mansell and De Angelis (best drivers in those 3 days) were driving approx 1'32". They broke 2 engines, so they had to leave after 3 days, while all other teams left 3-4 days later.
The car was still the old one, but according to Autosprint the team had already built a new one, drawn by Gustav Brunner before he left the team for going to Ferrari.

Ciao,
Guido
(from Autosprint 9/1986, page 7)

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson

Salazar drove it thereafter, but he had mostly DNQs, and I think the money ran out by the time of the Osterreichring race.

Yes. After the coffers ran dry Eliseo signed for Eddie Jordan prior to the Superprix. No problem there, as EJ was one of the blokes I'd talked to (as ES's manager) before the season started.

What was a problem, however, was that Eliseo then went and signed for the works Lola team two days later...

To say that EJ was unhappy would be like saying that Wayne Rooney is quite good at soccer. He went ballistic. The only positive was that Tommy got drafted in at short notice for the one race and we had a ball! Tommy's salary? US$100 - I kid you not.

Here's my son Thomas wearing the helmet Eliseo used for all his races in the RAM; I organised a better paint job in time for Birmingham.

[Megatron]

Thanks.

One more question, was Thack in line for the race drive if there had been a RAM f1 in 1986 or was this just a one off testing session?

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Megatron
Thanks.

One more question, was Thack in line for the race drive if there had been a RAM f1 in 1986 or was this just a one off testing session?

No, Thackwell was in official F.1 1986 entry list, with number 9, the same Ram had since 1984. In 1984-1985 there was also a second car, but in 1986 there should be only one.

Ciao,
Guido

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by gdecarli
Mike Thackwell tested RAM Hart at Jacarepaguá on February 17th (best lap: 1'49"63), 18th (1'42"94) and 19th (1'40"00) 1986. In the same days, Senna, Mansell and De Angelis (best drivers in those 3 days) were driving approx 1'32". They broke 2 engines, so they had to leave after 3 days, while all other teams left 3-4 days later.
The car was still the old one, but according to Autosprint the team had already built a new one, drawn by Gustav Brunner before he left the team for going to Ferrari.

Was this "new car" only a new chassis or a brand new RAM for the 1986 season? In other words: did RAM convert their existing car (the RAM 03) to F3000 spec or this new design by Brunner? (Possibly the "original" RAM04) Did they EVER build a F1-spec RAM04?

[isynge]

Originally posted by Megatron
Thanks.

One more question, was Thack in line for the race drive if there had been a RAM f1 in 1986 or was this just a one off testing session?

I seem to remember that Mike Thackwell's run at Rio were associated with a new team styled as "Black Swans" who were essentially a group of Ozzie business men who took over the remains of RAM, somewhat briefly.

I got excited about all the reports that ran at the time in GPI - always liking the prospect of new teams. Unsurprisingly perhaps they didn't show up come real season - but it didn't stop me being a tad disappointed.

Was a lovely colour scheme on thear though.

[Pascal]

A couple of pictures from the Monaco paddock in 1985:

[Mike Lawrence]

RAM stood for (Mick) Ralph And (John) Macdonald. For the 1981 season, Macdonald formed an alliance with Robin Herd, sole owner of March Engineering, to create a team called March Grand Prix. March, after all, had a more prominent reputation than RAM.

RAM had been running secondhand, but beautifully-prepared, Williams FW07s in the (British) Aurora F1 Championship and in some Grands Prix and the plot was to make a direct copy of the Williams FW07. Robin would supply the copies, which would becalled the March 811, and John would run the team.

The March 811 was not created at March Engineering in Bicester, but at March Engines (formerly Amon engines) at Abingdon. This was also wholly owned by Robin Herd.

The guys at March were used to making lots of cars, but down to a price, and the public result of this was at the 1981 Brazilian GP when the monocoques flexed so badly that they they had to be reskinned, in the pit lane, in the correct gauge of aluminium sheeting. John Macdonald threw a wobbly, as he had every right to do, because he had invested in the team and he had become a laughing stock. Robin Herd caught the next plane home.

Robin and John made an unlikely couple, Robin being the brilliant scholar and all-round sportsman, who could have played cricket as a professional for Worcestershire. John was a working class boy from Willesden (just like me) who had been a used car salesman in the Arfur Daley mode. John was utterly commited to motor racing and when you shook his hand, the deal was done. I am not sure I would have liked to have bought a used car from John Macdonald, but we had a completely straightforward relationship within motor racing, but then I like to think that my handshake something as well.

Much later, I learned that there was a serious aerodynamic flaw on the March 811. Patrick Head's original design called the for the exits of the side tunnels (we are talking full ground effect era, with sliding skirts) to be gently curved. The guys at March Engines thought this was too expensive so they squared-off the tunnels - and lost fifty per-cent of the downforce.

You cannot simply make a copy unless you can also enter the head of the original designer and perhaps nobody them realised just how sophisticated a brain Patrick Head has. The Williams FW07, after all, was a Lotus 79 with proper engineering. The Lotus 79 had a ground-breaking aerodyanamic package attached attached to what was not that great a chassis.

Gordon Coppuck was seconded from March Engineering to March Grand Prix to sort out the problems with the 811 and Gordon took it by the throat and gave it a good shaking. After two or three months, Gordon returned to his proper job and handed over to Adrian Reynard who, after a terrible 1980 season in FF2000, was struggling to keep Reynard Racing afloat. March Engineering was not having much of a 1981 either and, for a time, much of Reynard's income came from storing unsold March racing cars.

I was reminded of this the other day when I popped into my local Sainsbury's supermarket. How so? Adrian had sold a works FF2000 drive to Frank Bradley in 1980 and the car was so bad that not even Martin Brundle could win with it, he rarely made the top six, and Frank was a just a well-heeled amateur. Frank owned a Lamborghini Countach with the numberplate, 'FJB 1', how very rough diamond.

Frank deals in fish and sells, among other things, jellied eels - I saw Bradley's Jellied Eels in Sainsbury's. He reckoned that Adrian owed him a favour and so it was that Reynard Racing made 3,500 whelk pots (you throw a whelk pot into the sea and whelks crawl in). Adrian reckons that he made a profiit of 15p per £3.50 whelk pot, but it meant that he was able to keep on fabricators he might otherwise have had to lay off.

By the end of 1981. the March 811 was quite a useful car which was working sufficiently well to attract sponsorship from Rothmans, but that is another story.

A further twist is the fact that the first March Indycar was a beefed-up March/Williams 811 which benefited from the input of the prominent Indy crew-chief, George Bignotti, and that launched March Engineering into a brief, but very successful, career in CART.

[Mike Lawrence]

Me again, prompted by the reference to Skoal Bandits. Not many people know about this product, but it was made by an American tobacco company which specialised in chewing tobacco, pass the spitoon, hee-haw

Skoal Bandits were basically baccy in a tea bag for oral tobacco enjoyment when it was not appropropriate to light a cigarette, like in a coal mine or working under a car (I am paraphrasing from the press release, but these were examples given.) You placed the sachet between your gum and your cheek and it burned them. At the press launch we could have taken away as many packs of the things as we wanted, but even the most engaged smoker spat them out after about 15 seconds.

Journoes rejecting freebies? That gives you some idea how bad they were, they could not give them away. Guy Edwards had done a wonderful job selling RAM, and himself, to the rednecks who owned Skoal Bandits. I think that he must have forgotten to tell them that Europe is not that big on chewing tobacco.

Skoal applied for permission to build a factory in Scotland, but the British government vetoed the plan on the grounds that Skoal Bandits could cause cancer of the mouth.

Could there be a thread here? Motor racing sponsorship that failed. Anyone remember Southern Organs?

[Megatron]

Perhaps not a lot of Europeans but many Americans know about it.

Skoal dropped out of NASCAR a few years ago. They were quite paranoid the Gov would crack down on them like the cig companies. Their last autograph card originally had Skoal on it but it was quickly reproduced with "APR" (Name of the team) on the car. They are still in Drag Racing with Don Produme.

They used to back NASCAR like some of the tobacco companies in F1. They had Skoal Bandit and Harry Gant, Skoal Classic, Skoal Longcut, and Copenhagen, which was also Foyt's sponsor in later years.

Regarding handouts, I remember attending an autograph session many years ago where Skoal was handed out. Noboddy really wanted it, but as a kid I wanted to see if they would give it to me. I got three packs with three different flavors.

Timber Wolf is quitting after this year. I have a feeling they were asked out by somebody. They backed their first cup car for a one race deal this year and soon after announced they were quitting the sport for good.

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
Me again, prompted by the reference to Skoal Bandits. Not many people know about this product, but it was made by an American tobacco company which specialised in chewing tobacco, pass the spitoon, hee-haw

Skoal Bandits were basically baccy in a tea bag for oral tobacco enjoyment when it was not appropropriate to light a cigarette, like in a coal mine or working under a car (I am paraphrasing from the press release, but these were examples given.) You placed the sachet between your gum and your cheek and it burned them. At the press launch we could have taken away as many packs of the things as we wanted, but even the most engaged smoker spat them out after about 15 seconds.

Journoes rejecting freebies? That gives you some idea how bad they were, they could not give them away. Guy Edwards had done a wonderful job selling RAM, and himself, to the rednecks who owned Skoal Bandits. I think that he must have forgotten to tell them that Europe is not that big on chewing tobacco.

Skoal applied for permission to build a factory in Scotland, but the British government vetoed the plan on the grounds that Skoal Bandits could cause cancer of the mouth.

Could there be a thread here? Motor racing sponsorship that failed. Anyone remember Southern Organs?

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence


Could there be a thread here? Motor racing sponsorship that failed. Anyone remember Southern Organs?

Essex Petroleum has to be right up there..................

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Ruairidh


Essex Petroleum has to be right up there..................

Moneytron's at least on a par with those two ;)

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence

Journoes rejecting freebies? That gives you some idea how bad they were, they could not give them away.

My first exposure to chewing tobacco was in Sweden during the seventies. I was rather surprised to learn that the stuff has ground glass mixed in with it to break the skin's surface in order to allow the nicotine to enter the system more quickly. This was explained to me by members of the Finnish national athletics squad who were al staying on the other side of our hotel corridor from us. Most of them were using the stuff, as well as sinking large quantities of duty free spirits at a party in one of their rooms. Perhaps not too surprising back in those day, except for the fact that they had a two-day grudge meeting against Sweden starting the next day!

Skoal was/is manufactured by US Tobacco, who I had cause to visit at their HQ in Conecticut during 1984. Remember the big 'expose' in the News of the World concerning allegations of something unpleasant involving Alex Hawkridge? Well, that was published at the time Toleman looked like landing the Skoal money for '85 - at RAM's expense. That is, until a dozen copies of that very issue mysteriously arrived on the desk of the top man at US Tobacco...

Guy Edwards also arranged the Skoal sponsorship for John Fitzpatrick's Group C team around the same time, with whom he had a drive. There was also a Skoal-sponsored 500cc GP bike team who Rob McElnea rode for.

Anyone remember Southern Organs?

Yes, I do! And I also remember National Organs, who were a different concern altogether but had a brief flirtation with the British racing scene at around the same period. One of them sponsored Dave Morgan's Surtees for the 1975 British GP.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
...but even the most engaged smoker spat them out after about 15 seconds.

The urge to ask "Nigel Roebuck?" is overwhelming.....;)

[Megatron]

How about T Minus? Or Andrea Moda?

How about the Xena decal on the Tyrrell in Canada in 1997?

[BRG]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
I was reminded of this the other day when I popped into my local Sainsbury's supermarket. How so? Adrian had sold a works FF2000 drive to Frank Bradley in 1980 and the car was so bad that not even Martin Brundle could win with it, he rarely made the top six, and Frank was a just a well-heeled amateur. Frank owned a Lamborghini Countach with the numberplate, 'FJB 1', how very rough diamond.

Frank deals in fish and sells, among other things, jellied eels - I saw Bradley's Jellied Eels in Sainsbury's.

I know Frank a little (not that I have seen him for ages!) through a common friend who knew him from school and I don't think that this does him justice. He is a rough diamond, true, but he has a heart of gold (some mixed jewellery metaphors there, but you know what I mean!).

Frankie Bradley may have been a well-heeled amateur but he was/is a very capable driver but who always had the family fish business to keep his feet on the ground. I have heard tails of him carrying crates of eels around on the backseat of a Jag Mk10 and once have a bit of a shunt in Hounslow High Street that lead to a serious escaped eel incident, but maybe that is OT…

But he also has a very colourful motorsport history. He reportedly obtained sponsorship from Uniroyal Tredaire (a flooring material) for his F. Ford by liverying up his car and then parking it outside the corporate HQ in London until the marketing people came to find out what it was all about. He had sponsorship from them for years after that! Frankie was a stalwart supporter of the F. Ford Festival, turning up year after year, even when he had stopped regularly racing, and generally putting in excellent performances showing up some of the young hot-shoes.

He joined our motor club and decided to try a 12-car rally (a little club event held on the public road but limited to 12 entrants) in his Ferrari Dino, persuading the aforementioned common friend’s very comely sister to navigate. He was probably leading the event when he understeered into a gate post! Ouch. But it was Jonathan Palmer who stuffed his Countach for him. Frankie had one of the first examples in the UK and was persuaded to lend it to some magazine for a test at Goodwood. Where the good Dr Palmer left the road at some speed and bent it. He had several Countachs – once complaining to Lamborghini that the car’s massive windscreen misted up irretrievably in the rain. Lamborghini, he told us, were astonished that anyone actually DROVE a Countach in the rain…

Somehow, and I never really understood the details, Frankie acquired the Swift marque and was a racing car manufacturer for a while (early 1980s?). It later became a US based marque. I never got to the bottom of all that!

More recently Frank was drafted into the University of Swansea Darrian team in the British GT championship a few years ago to help out in a race at Brands Hatch. The little Darrian T9 only had a n/a 2 litre engine, but was very light and agile. I had one of the days of my life cheering him on as he carved through the big powerful Porsches, Jaguar XJ220s and other heavy metal and made some of them look plain silly! Unfortunately, someone shunted him up the back when they misjudged just how good a Darrian’s brakes are and flattened the exhaust, putting an end to Frankie ‘s antics for the day.

Frank Bradley - a colourful character, a real enthusiast who thoroughly enjoyed his sport (and that is what it is all about, after all) and most of all, a great laugh.

[Muzza]

Even though Skoal Bandit and other chewing tobacco brands are currently not sponsoring racing cars in the United States (at least in major series; I don't known about the smaller ones, but I don't recall seeing anything for a few years now) chewing tobacco promo boots are present in almost any racing event in the United States bar Champ Car and ALMS. I saw chewing tobacco promo booths even in Grand Am races, and if I am not mistaken in AMA events as well.

Actually these "booths" are more like pavilions - hundreds (thousands?) of square meters-large tents with hype music and beautiful women (truly gorgeous), light effects and all the cool atmosphere, videogames, mechanic bull and etc.. Anyone older than the required age (18 or 21? Stoopid furreiners like me never know the difference) can get in and leave with many free samples of "goodies". I remember a NASCAR race at the Chicagoland Speedway where I could not avoid (given the ladies...) being given some thirty boxes (some nicely painted tin ones) of chewing tobacco of the most different brands. At NASCAR races there are also booths selling fancy spitting cups for those that don't want to use an empty cup of Bud for the rejects of their pleasure. Some of these spitting cups are quite expensive and a Swiss friend of mine paid quite some money for one of them, which he took home as an "American curiosity" to show his friends.

[Muzza]

Ops... I just read Megatron's posting above and I obviously forgot that Skoal sponsors Don Prudhomme in drag racing, and that Timber Wolf is at NASCAR. And, as Megatron, I also believe that the France family has made the presence of Timber Wolf as a sponsor somewhat "difficult".

[Megatron]

Originally posted by Muzza
Ops... I just read Megatron's posting above and I obviously forgot that Skoal sponsors Don Prudhomme in drag racing, and that Timber Wolf is at NASCAR. And, as Megatron, I also believe that the France family has made the presence of Timber Wolf as a sponsor somewhat "difficult".

Andy Pettree at the time was dismayed but their withdrawl from NASCAR. He felt, rightfully so, that it was their best advertising avenue and they quit it.

[Mike Lawrence]

Big tents filled with gorgeous women? I chew, I chew.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence

I chew, I chew.

Bless you!

Do you rmember the name of the bloke who was head of either Southern Organs, or National Organs, Mike? Wasn't his name Sidney someone...?! And am I right in remembering the Dave Morgan Surtees deal?

The timely shipping of copies of that 'offending' issue of the News of the World was a masterstroke by 'somebody' involved 'somewhere' in the RAM scenario, wouldn't you agree?

[Megatron]

Skoal did say in their press release that they would continue "small trackside marketing", I suppose that would be it.

My grandmother has chewed/dipped for around 50 years but never touched a cig. From being around her I can tell you a lot of the problem is the mess that it makes, without being too obsene.

Never did Skoal though. Not even the free samples I got her.

She's in perfect health, knock on wood.

I think Skoal and Timberwolf get suttle "double marketing" by running a couple of different colors on the car or in Skoal's drag racing efforts, cars. They are identified mostly by color, ie Bandi = Green, Loncut = Dark red, Classic = Black.

[Mike Lawrence]

The guy behiind Sputhern Organs was Sidney Miller and in the mid-1970s Southern Organs was everywhere. There was even a branch in my town (Chichester). So far as I can make out, Miller over-extended himself on hire purchase deals and the careers os Dave and Richard Morgan were wrecked because they had signed hp forms as guarantors.

When the net was closing in, Sidney and his male partner, threw a party. a helicoptor arrived and whisked them off. they were found months later in a pretty bad way on an otherwise deserted Scottish island.

I was at a dinner table with one of the Morgan brothers in the late 1980s and he said Miller was such a likeable man that he'd visited him in prison, apparently the other prisoners all liked him as well and he was running what there was of a social life inside.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
The guy behiind Sputhern Organs was Sidney Miller and in the mid-1970s Southern Organs was everywhere. There was even a branch in my town (Chichester). So far as I can make out, Miller over-extended himself on hire purchase deals and the careers os Dave and Richard Morgan were wrecked because they had signed hp forms as guarantors.

When the net was closing in, Sidney and his male partner, threw a party. a helicoptor arrived and whisked them off. they were found months later in a pretty bad way on an otherwise deserted Scottish island.

I was at a dinner table with one of the Morgan brothers in the late 1980s and he said Miller was such a likeable man that he'd visited him in prison, apparently the other prisoners all liked him as well and he was running what there was of a social life inside.

Got a feeling that we have discussed Southern/National Organs and Mr Miller somewhere on here before, but I'm damned if I can find it. Probably due to my ineptitude with the "search" facility.

I think someone pointed me in the direction of a press article about the whole fiasco. I am sure he was a WONDERFUL human being, but too many racing drivers were left licking their wounds after he did a runner.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Remember the big 'expose' in the News of the World concerning allegations of something unpleasant involving Alex Hawkridge?

Sorry to go OT, but being a youngster back then I have never heard anything about this until now. Could you provide any more details? I can't really imagine why the NOTW would bother priniting allegations about Hawkridge - surely he wasn't famous enough for them?!

[2F-001]

Yes, we have discussed Southern Organs (and national Organs) at some length in the past... it turned into a munti-facetted thread, with lots of references to press reports I'd never seen before. Wasn't a psychic investigator involved in tracking down the perpetrators - of what I assume was something akin to fraud - (he said, being careful with his words). They actually sponsored the British Saloon Championship during its Group One era (amongst other series).

Re: Skoal Bandits -- I always thought they were a kind of chewing-tobacco-substitute rather than actual baccy. Have I got that wrong?
I too have seen them in use in Scandinavia in recent times - much in evidence on flights I remember. Seemed to be a bit of a loophole product since in some markets children seemed to be able to buy them openly.
By some co-incidence a bunch of us were discussing these things at the weekend - someone commented that that type of product was the most effective thing for promoting cancers of toungue and mouth. Putting my moralistic hat on for a mo. what other sponsors products are there that seem to be more harmful than tobacco?

[2F-001]

In the circles I move in, Mr Hawkridge is 'best' remembered for throwing enough money at his pot-hunting foray into Class A of the then-Caterham Seven Challenge (early 'nineties) to effectively ruin the series!

[ian senior]

Originally posted by mikedeering


Sorry to go OT, but being a youngster back then I have never heard anything about this until now. Could you provide any more details? I can't really imagine why the NOTW would bother priniting allegations about Hawkridge - surely he wasn't famous enough for them?!

I'll send you a PM, Mike, perhaps what (little) I know about this may not be suitable before the watershed! And wasn't club racer Chris Skeaping accused of something similar by the same paper in about 1972?

[Mallory Dan]

Chaps, yes we have discussed the Sid Miller 'Organ Fiasco' on here before. As I recall he had various Companies, Southern Organs, National Organs, and Miller Organs were all involved in sponsoring various UK Cars/Drivers/Series from about 1974-76, when his scam got found out. I think it involved selling new Organs to Churches on good HP terms. I remember as a kid, seeing a documentary about the scam on TV in the years after he was found out.

Re Chris Skeaping, I also remember some Sunday paper article about him, again it'd be in the mid-70s. Didn't it involve his tastes in matters of the flesh, especially regarding the younger members of society ...

Onto more palatable subjects, Frank Bradley was a very quick FF2000 driver in the early 80s. He got the awful Reyard 80SF going pretty quickly, at least as well as M Brundle, and then had one of the first Van Diemen 2000 cars. As I recall, he bought the Swift UK franchise in about 1986-87, after that company's many successes in the US FF1600/2000 Sports2000 series. His cars were always very smartly turned out, and he definitely gave the younger hotshoes something to think about, a bit like Syd Fox did a few years earlier.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by 2F-001
.

By some co-incidence a bunch of us were discussing these things at the weekend - someone commented that that type of product was the most effective thing for promoting cancers of toungue and mouth. Putting my moralistic hat on for a mo. what other sponsors products are there that seem to be more harmful than tobacco?

Probably very few. I want to digress and talk about maggots for a moment, be patient with me.

Fishermen are involved in one of the most dangerous sports in the world. Apart from drowning and lightning strikes they now face the added risk of electrocution when their carbon fibre rods touch overhead power cables. However it has now emerged that their greatest risk comes from...their bait.

Maggots are factory finished in a white/creamy bodywork. They are quite happy with this but they are distinctly unattractive to fish, hence the bait manufacturers dye them in assorted fluorescent colours. Easy.

Problem number 2. In the winter your maggots go cold sitting in their bait box. Cold maggots don't wriggle, they just lie there inertly. Inert maggots are once again unattractive to fish. Fishermen have a solution, place the cold maggot in that warm Skoal Bandit place twixt cheek and gum and take care not to swallow. 30 seconds later your rejuvenated disco-dancing fluorescent maggot can go on the hook and you're fishing.

The bad news is that the dyes used in maggot coating have proved to be carcinogenic, hence the rise in oral cancers amongst fishermen.

What a gruesome OT story (but true). I still think the Skoal livery on the Gp C Porshes was wonderful...

http://img45.exs.cx/...1384/skoalk.jpg

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
Could there be a thread here? Motor racing sponsorship that failed. Anyone remember Southern Organs?

There was the Mastercard Lola fiasco that killed off one of the great motor racing names.

What was the Shannon thing with Forti? Wasn't that an impecunious sponsor?

And wasn't there a problem with Broker magazine? They were on Sauber for a year or 2 but did they ever pay? Minardi basically shopped one of their sponsors earlier this year for not paying.

There was also a big hoo-ha over Big Daddy's BBQ Sauce in NASCAR and the IRL. I remember seeing a red and yellow Junie Donlavey car with the BDBBQ stickers removed last minute because money had not come through, and scheduled driver Mike Harmon removed and replaced with Mike Wallace. Think BDBBQ ended up with problems with one of the IRL early guys, perhaps Galles?

[tonicco]

Originally posted by ensign14
There was the Mastercard Lola fiasco that killed off one of the great motor racing names.

The way I see it, Lola's F1 demise had nothing to do with the Mastercard sponsoring scheme... The only problem was Eric Broadley himself - he's the one to blame for killing his own creation.

[Muzza]

Originally posted by tonicco



The way I see it, Lola's F1 demise had nothing to do with the Mastercard sponsoring scheme... The only problem was Eric Broadley himself - he's the one to blame for killing his own creation.

Caro Tonicco,

My point of view on this regard is completely opposed to yours... According to what I read, and heard, Broadley (and Lola) were actually victims of some "smart" marketing consultants.

The story (as I know it) goes like that: some marketing consultants would have developed an "innovative, revolutionary sponsorship scheme" (were they business school students? ) and wanted to apply it to Formula 1. They then approached Mastercard, that received the idea with a number of restrictions and Broadley to arrange the deal.

Broadley, already past 65 at the time, saw this as his last opportunity to, finally, break it right into Formula 1 - but he had a big problem: he was contacted in September, when it was far too late to assemble a proper Formula 1 team. He begged time and again for a one year deferrance - so the team would enter the 1998 season, instead of 1997 - but he got a resolute "no" in reply. When he asked once more for a delay, the answer was a threatening statement in the lines "ok, Eric, if this is how you want to work, we are going to Eddie Jordan". So he had no choice. I remember reading interviews with Broadley in magazines (Autosport, maybe?) before the 1997 where he stated that I report above (that he was approached by outside investors in September, that he unsuccessfully tried to delay the entry in one year, that he got a reply "it must be now" and so he went for it).

In this scenario, I cannot understand how "the only problem was Eric Broadley himself - he's the one to blame for killing his own creation" as you stated.

There is more. I have been a long-time Lola fan (what may bias my opinion towards Broadley, and I recognize that) and as soon as I heard of the "revolutionary" sponsorship scheme I thought "uh-oh, this does not sound financially feasible" (and, again, the business strategy was not conceived nor put together by Broadley). I remember discussing that with a few friends at the time, and we could not see how such scheme would generate funds enough to assemble - let alone keep afloat - a Formula 1 team.

Nevertheless I tried - several times - to join the VISA/Eurocard/Mastercard sponsors club and support the team, and I was never successful. I was living in Switzerland at the time, and I called the local VISA branch as well as their operations in Germany and in the UK. The answers were variations of the theme "Sir, the VISA Formula 1 supporters club is not set yet. Please call us again later."

And, if all this is not enough, I was told by a former Formula 3000 manager that Broadley bore himself most of the cost for the construction of the terribly unsuccessful 1997 Formula 1 car.

So, is Broadley to blame?


Muzza

[ensign14]

I had the same thoughts as you, Muzza - when I saw the deal announced I thought it was madness, there was never going to be enough take up and when some more details suggested that the money was not coming on stream until mid-season it was dead as a dodo. Broadley is to blame by going for it and not telling MC to stuff it, he did not need to go into F1, and MC's offer could always have been rejected.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by tonicco



The way I see it, Lola's F1 demise had nothing to do with the Mastercard sponsoring scheme... The only problem was Eric Broadley himself - he's the one to blame for killing his own creation.

I must say that nothing ever convinced me that the Lola would be much cop. There was nothing special about the string of cars that McNish tested for them.... so a last-minute F1 deal with customer engines, conditional sponsorship, and new drivers was never going to be more than a grid-filler. Bloody ugly car too, though the livery was pretty good.

I do wonder what happened to the Al Melling engine they were rumoured to be looking at for later that season....

[tonicco]

Originally posted by Muzza


In this scenario, I cannot understand how "the only problem was Eric Broadley himself - he's the one to blame for killing his own creation" as you stated.

Muzza

Muzza,

In the end, as you correctly pointed, it was Eric Broadley who decided to be part in a very strange scenario, without a single positive side to it, hence my statement - that I reafirm.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Zawed
Drivers in 1983 were Salazar, Jean Louis Schlesser, Jacques Villeneuve (Gilles brother) and Kenny Acheson.

Nelson Piquet tested RAM at Le Castellet on May 9th, 1983. More details on Piquet testing a RAM in 1983, Ultimate TEST DRIVER Thread! and Le Castellet / Paul Ricard test story threads.

Ciao,
Guido