122 replies to this topic

[UPRC]

Juan Pablo Montoya on his performance:
"It's not going to be easy because we're scoring just three, four points here and there. We finished 2003 really well, so we were really expecting it to be our year - but it took so, so long to develop the car. It has definitely been frustrating. I've won races, Williams have won races, you're going for the championship -- but suddenly you're nowhere. I think that says it all, really.

Source is f1racing.net, this is the article.
What I pasted above is just the meat of the article, what JPM said. It was broken up, so I combined it all into one long quote.


Thoughts? Opinions?

I'm sure that the Montoya fans will rally behind their man and agree that the car is utter crap while Montoya haters will probably blame him.

I'm pretty neutral on JPM, but I am a little skeptical about all this. Ralf Schumacher has pretty much been matching JPM or doing better than him, Pizzonia held his own against him, and Gene.. Gene was something different altogether.

I don't think the JPM is performing the best he can, the pace of his team-mates in some races this year prove that.. I agree with him though that the car is a little off this year, but I don't believe that it is all the car's fault..

[karlth]

Originally posted by UPRC
Ralf Schumacher has pretty much been matching JPM or doing better than him ...

Based on what?

I don't remember the exact numbers but Montoya has outqualified, outraced and outpointed Ralf something in the region of 3 to 1. Pizzonia couldn't improve the ratio while Gene didn't even register on the radar.

I don't think the JPM is performing the best he can, the pace of his team-mates in some races this year prove that..

In fact if anything it proves the exact opposite. Juan has dominated his teammates this year and that inspite of barely testing throughout the season.

I agree with him though that the car is a little off this year, but I don't believe that it is all the car's fault.

Difficult to tell of course but earlier in the season Frank Williams blamed the car and said that Montoya was driving better than ever, and frankly based on his results compared to his teammates that might well be the case.

[Elspeth]

I don't see in the article where he says 'its not my fault, its the car'. What article is that quote from?

[MuMu]

How the drivers performed for their teams thus far:

1. Button (75% of team's points scored)
2. Montoya (72%)
3. Webber (70%)
4. Panis (67%)
5. Fisi (66%)
6. Heidfeld (60%)
7. Kimi (58%)
8. Michael (56%)
9. Alonso (52%)

JPM's percenatge was at 67% at the time of Ralf's crash.

I can't see how anyone would really have done better than JPM this season in that car.

[Paul Parker]

There is so much inconsistency within the Williams team regarding car and driver performances that it is virtually impossible to make any objective judgement.

For me two things stand out about Williams. Firstly Pizzonia was very impressive given his lack of racing mileage and surely merits another regular F1 drive. Secondly who else noticed the absolute ease with which Schumacher M. breeezed pasted Schumacher R. in China on the back straight. I thought that the BMW engine was supposed to be the business but the Ferrari went by as if it was tied to a post.

Given the Ferrari's visibly superior chassis and reliability plus its apparently surplus power when needed, no wonder they win virtually every race.

[rce]

Hey if the car is crap then how did Ralf get 5th on the starting grid in China and Juan Pablo was where???

Look I'm not going to get into a war about Juan Pablo with Juan Pablo fans - it's completely pointless, but I do think Juan Pablo has be lacking this year compared with other years. It could be & probably is a factor of things...one being that the car DID suck (it's not until China that it really came together...okay maybe Spa) and the other he's leaving the team.

Sure they go on about how 'no, it's not going to bother me', 'yes I'm going to be a team player' but really, let's be honest here. Do you really think Juan Pablo cares what happens at Williams? No, sure he want's points - but the more points he gets, the more points Williams gets.

Now, personally I believe that Frank Williams is all about the constructors title and could care less about the drivers title - somehow me thinks that Juan Pablo (and most all drivers) are completely the opposite.

I put it down to (maybe) Juan Pablo 'mentally' left the team months ago, while 'physically' he's still stuck there and un-happy about it. I'm certain that next year, even with the challenge of a new team & Kimi, he'll be on top form (hopefully the car will too - and I'm not even remotely a fan of Juan Pablo's).

[MuMu]

Originally posted by rce
Hey if the car is crap then how did Ralf get 5th on the starting grid in China and Juan Pablo was where???

Care to look up the stats in that regard for the whole season and not just one race?

[Sakae]

Originally posted by MuMu
How the drivers performed for their teams thus far:

1. Button (75% of team's points scored)
2. Montoya (72%)
3. Webber (70%)
4. Panis (67%)
5. Fisi (66%)
6. Heidfeld (60%)
7. Kimi (58%)
8. Michael (56%)
9. Alonso (52%)

JPM's percenatge was at 67% at the time of Ralf's crash.

I can't see how anyone would really have done better than JPM this season in that car.

What those figures are suppose to tell us again? Something like that Button has one useless partner next to him, while Alonso and Truli are about on the same level? Is that what it is?

[HBoss]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
There is so much inconsistency within the Williams team regarding car and driver performances that it is virtually impossible to make any objective judgement.(...)

I do feel that.

But I also feel that, after what happened in the first races of the season, with Schumacher winning 5 races while Montoya strugled with a slower and less reliable car, he just didn't give it his all. Montoya didn't get off to a good start at Melbourne, but then he drove his hats off at Sepang. At Bahrain he also had a very good race, with his gearbox letting him down to crawl to the finish line. Then there was Imola and his incident with Schumacher, which got deep into him. At Barcelona Montoya came promissing a vengeance, but instead the Williams' launch controle failed him at the start and then his brakes failed him during the race, causing his second DNF while Schumacher trotted to his 5th win.

By then, he knew the title was lost, driving the be 2nd in the WDC certainly wasn't going to motivate him at all. The year was over in regards to the championship. Being disqualified twice in two races didn't do him any good, and then the challenge of beating his teammate came to an end with Ralf's accident at Indy. So I think he just lost his motivation, his spark. And then came all these races in which he has been far from winning, far from the podium, and commiting small mistakes while not extracting the maximum from the car.

Summing it up, I think it all comes down to the disappointing FW26 + loss of motivation + small errors in his driving + some underperforming + sights set on McLaren and 2005.

I don't think he has done poorly, but I do think he was able to do better.

[xype]

Originally posted by rce
Hey if the car is crap then how did Ralf get 5th on the starting grid in China and Juan Pablo was where???

Must have been Ralf's day of the year when he puts in an effort.

Seriously, the "quote" is another sensationalistic title from a Formula 1 website. What JPM was saying is that basically he did all he could but the car didn't allow him to do any wonders. And he's absolutely right about that.

Now claiming a driver is not motivated after he signed for another team is a bit off. It could be that short lapses in concentration happen when you've been winning for the past few years and are getting bored by lack of competition. But I doubt someone as agressive and self-confident as JPM doesn't want to prove himself at every race. He doesn't care, neither does Kimi - and that makes them a perfect character for racing drivers.

Now, people who get miffed and jump out of the car just because they don't get all the attention of the pit crew, on the other hand...

[MuMu]

MIPE:
You make up your mind what they're supposed to tell you.
Your mind was made up at the start of the season though - JPM is crap and should be replaced at Williams blah blah blah.

Do you really think that a driver who has beaten his teammates consistently throughout the season has not been performing well? You probably do, but these figures are FACTS and not just the Schumacher fanboy rubbish that you spout most of the time.

[Jodum5]

I dont know how you people find the time for these trite arguments

[Corners]

Like we've seen time and time again JPM doesn't put in the same effort when the car is down a bit on performance, Ralf generally has the upper hand when the car is difficult to drive but when its well balanced and the engine is strong and they find theirselves going for pole suddenly the body-language of JPM's car is totally different, he suddenly starts driving on the limit I'm not fully knocking him I'll give hime some credit for perhaps having more confidence when the car is stable but still it certainly isn't the mark of a champion. As I've said JPM will only win a championship if the car is the best on the grid comfortably.

[MuMu]

Fastcar, you make yourself look more ridiculous with every post

He has beaten Ralf quite comfortably when the car has not been that good. He's one of the drivers that can drag an uncompetive cars around to finish high up. Just look at his results compared to Ralf's. That's why JPMs beaten Ralf solidly for the last three seasons. And remember that it was only the poor reliability of the Williams that robbed JPM of a chapionship last season. Where was Ralf?

But then again, you're not interested in facts....

[xype]

Originally posted by Jodum5
I dont know how you people find the time for these trite arguments

It's late, we don't have a life and there's nothing on TV.

[kismet]

I think it's amazing that Williams basically started the season being the second best and now they're more or less midfielders. That speaks of a level of ineptitude that far exceeds the driver side of things.

[MuMu]

Agree.
If they had a problem on the driver front they wouldn't have changed their front end halfway through the season. It was a really crap design.
Patrick Head and Sam Michael don't help their cause either - the one's an old fart who thinks it's still 1990 and the other one's a clueless young upstart. And then there's Super Mario who thinks that they have the greatest engine in the world, and then there's Michelin...
God what a mess. If it wasn't for Frank they'd be going the Jaguar route.

[Sakae]

Originally posted by MuMu

MIPE:
You make up your mind what they're supposed to tell you.
Your mind was made up at the start of the season though - JPM is crap and should be replaced at Williams blah blah blah.

Do you really think that a driver who has beaten his teammates consistently throughout the season has not been performing well? You probably do, but these figures are FACTS and not just the Schumacher fanboy rubbish that you spout most of the time.

Before you fly off the handle, you should re-read my question again; something, I have noticed, you had not answered. I was giving you a chance to explain the data, that's all, because suggestive as they are, I think statistically they are of no significance, unless you want to misrepresent certain concepts and issues.

On second point - your intro. in this post would be quite incorrect. Only once I have suggested that JPM should have been let go by Williams, and that was only after he had announced that he shall be leaving the team. Merely an opinion, that's all.

JPM, crap? No, I don't use such expressions - at least not too often. But yes, I think he is weak, and not a material for F1 WDC. Again, just an opinion.

"Spouting" about MS? Are you sure or is it just your preception? Yes, I like the guy, and I respect what he has done, and from time to time I do engage in unsolicited defense of him on this BB. But spouting..? I don't think so.

[Corners]

Originally posted by MuMu
Fastcar, you make yourself look more ridiculous with every post

He has beaten Ralf quite comfortably when the car has not been that good. He's one of the drivers that can drag an uncompetive cars around to finish high up. Just look at his results compared to Ralf's. That's why JPMs beaten Ralf solidly for the last three seasons. And remember that it was only the poor reliability of the Williams that robbed JPM of a chapionship last season. Where was Ralf?

But then again, you're not interested in facts....

Yes you're right I'm not interested in looking into facts and figures to make up for JPM's **** performances. He aint no champion so get over it, like I said Michael Schumacher would win the championship this year and I said Williams should and probably will(unless their pride got in the way) the Walrus nose and JPM wouldn't win a race this year...just some facts of my own for you from before the season started with whatever name I was allowed to use oh yeah Fisi would beat Massa actually there's a very long list of facts it goes on and on.

[Ozz88]

I don't care what he says. The real proof is next year.

[xype]

Originally posted by MiPe

JPM, crap? No, I don't use such expressions - at least not too often. But yes, I think he is weak, and not a material for F1 WDC. Again, just an opinion.

Hmm, someone should have told him that. He wouldn't put so much effort into winning races, the CART series and Indy 500 then and could also eat more hamburgers.

[Backing-kick]

Next year will be the acid test.

No doubt if JPM does better, the experts on here will tell us that means Raikkonen's no good, and if Kimi does better then some will say McLaren favoured him over Montoya!

People will always make reality fit what they want to believe.

[davegp3]

Originally posted by MuMu
Fastcar, you make yourself look more ridiculous with every post

He has beaten Ralf quite comfortably when the car has not been that good. He's one of the drivers that can drag an uncompetive cars around to finish high up. Just look at his results compared to Ralf's. That's why JPMs beaten Ralf solidly for the last three seasons. And remember that it was only the poor reliability of the Williams that robbed JPM of a chapionship last season. Where was Ralf?

But then again, you're not interested in facts....

Exactly. In fact it is Ralf who needs a perfect car to deliver strong performance, not JPM.

[dgsg]

Originally posted by xype


It's late, we don't have a life and there's nothing on TV.

yes!

[Sakae]

Originally posted by xype


Hmm, someone should have told him that. He wouldn't put so much effort into winning races, the CART series and Indy 500 then and could also eat more hamburgers.

Read my post again. We are talking about F1 in here. I have not commented on his past life, despite that I have watch him around in here.

JPM was predicted (mostly by slightly bias media) to be a Second coming upon his entry to F1 (due to his results in another series). After a few races in F1 I would however say, that while he is not bad, in overall I am still waiting for the Second coming of his.

He might do better once he grows up, and matures mentally into a champion. The way he evaluates races (cause&effect), quite often I think he has yet a long way to go. His family might have a positive effect upon him, and I wish him best.

[karlth]

Originally posted by MiPe
JPM was predicted (mostly by slightly bias media) to be a Second coming upon his entry to F1 (due to his results in another series). After a few races in F1 I would however say, that while he is not bad, in overall I am still waiting for the Second coming of his.

There was no second coming in 2002 and 2004 simply because there was no room against Ferrari's superior package. In 2003 under more equal conditions there certainly was with the championship decided between Michael, Juan and Kimi purely on mechanical reliability.

The fact is that in equal or thereabouts equal cars Montoya has time and time again proven his championship credentials in the major series with two championships and two lost by a whisker.

Anyway for posters here to complain about Montoya's performance this season is simply laughable considering the results his teammates managed in equal machinery.

[FNG]

Originally posted by karlth


There was no second coming in 2002 and 2004 simply because there was no room against Ferrari's superior package. In 2003 under more equal conditions there certainly was with the championship decided between Michael, Juan and Kimi purely on mechanical reliability.

The fact is that in equal or thereabouts equal cars Montoya has time and time again proven his championship credentials in the major series with two championships and two lost by a whisker.

Anyway for posters here to complain about Montoya's performance this season is simply laughable considering the results his teammates managed in equal machinery.

Spot on! Sometimes I wonder what people here are on. The Williams has not been a championship winning car, maybe 2003, but like you said that was all decided on reliability. He has beaten his teamate in all years so he hasn't done that bad.

[Sakae]

Originally posted by karlth


There was no second coming in 2002 and 2004 simply because there was no room against Ferrari's superior package. In 2003 under more equal conditions there certainly was with the championship decided between Michael, Juan and Kimi purely on mechanical reliability.

The fact is that in equal or thereabouts equal cars Montoya has time and time again proven his championship credentials in the major series with two championships and two lost by a whisker.

Anyway for posters here to complain about Montoya's performance this season is simply laughable considering the results his teammates managed in equal machinery.

Divergence of our mutual point of view on the subject is centered on intangibles, with which, as a manager with long term outlook I would be concerned. I am puzzled by his attitude “it’s not me”, I am concerned that he further seems to be disassociating himself from controversial events he was involved in, and most troublesome sign of mental instability is the constant state of mental war he seems to be in.

Can he say that during his tenure at Williams he had begun or at least attempted to build a team around him which would earn him any admiration, and perhaps the "extra care" a driver gets from his team, while they working on his car? In my vision of a complete driver of today one has to belong, and JPM isn’t. Perhaps at the top level he might need it, because a fast car might simply not be enough, as it all must come together for two hours 17 or 19 times a season.

[Mat]

Originally posted by Corners
Like we've seen time and time again JPM doesn't put in the same effort when the car is down a bit on performance, Ralf generally has the upper hand when the car is difficult to drive but when its well balanced and the engine is strong and they find theirselves going for pole suddenly the body-language of JPM's car is totally different, he suddenly starts driving on the limit I'm not fully knocking him I'll give hime some credit for perhaps having more confidence when the car is stable but still it certainly isn't the mark of a champion. As I've said JPM will only win a championship if the car is the best on the grid comfortably.

you know you dont have to make things up to prove your point against JPM. There are plenty of facts available that will do just as good a job. In the beginning of '03, when the Williams was an absolute tractor, Ralf was nowhere and JPM was dragging that car to where i doesnt belong. He is a fighter in that respect and thats why, when the car did finally come good, it was him and not Ralf who was fighting for the championship. But you have seem to have completely forgot the middle part of the season. Magny-Cours was one where the car was dominant that weekend, yet JPM had nothin for Ralf.

Originally posted by karlth
There was no second coming in 2002 and 2004 simply because there was no room against Ferrari's superior package. In 2003 under more equal conditions there certainly was with the championship decided between Michael, Juan and Kimi purely on mechanical reliability.

If he was the second coming, he would have had no problem beating Ralf when the car was at its best at the mid part of last season.

[F1DGM]

Hi every body, I'm new here.

Just some data about JPM perfomance this season:

JPM/ Team mate;

Qualy: 12/4

Race: 10/3

DNF: 5/6

When both Williams finished the race: 7/1

[karlth]

Originally posted by Mat
Magny-Cours was one where the car was dominant that weekend, yet JPM had nothin for Ralf.

There was ca. one second between Ralf and Juan at Magny-Cours. Montoya for reasons well known by now throttled back after the last pitstop.

If you want to find a strong race for Ralf last year try Nurburgring instead. That was certainly one of the two to three races each year where Ralf manages to convincingly outperform Montoya.

[karlth]

Originally posted by MiPe
Divergence of our mutual point of view on the subject is centered on intangibles, with which, as a manager with long term outlook I would be concerned. I am puzzled by his attitude “it’s not me”.

I think I can probably state as a fact that no top driver points at himself as the source of a team's lack of performance. Perhaps over a single race weekend but over the better part of a season? No.

At least since Brundle compared his driving to an "old tart" I don't remember a single instance of self described poor driving, over the season, by the better performing driver in a team.

Any Schumacher quotes you have handy to prove me wrong? When Michael started laying the blame during difficult times I seem to remember him always blaming the car or the tires, never himself. Then I guess you would be concerned about his attitude too?

[Mat]

Originally posted by karlth


There was ca. one second between Ralf and Juan at Magny-Cours. Montoya for reasons well known by now throttled back after the last pitstop.

If you want to find a strong race for Ralf last year try Nurburgring instead. That was certainly one of the two to three races each year where Ralf manages to convincingly outperform Montoya.

yeah thanks, at the time, nurburgring was escaping me. i knew there was two races. And there is two races. Both times Montoya was outpaced. Plus, i dont think you can say he was more convincing at Nurburgring, it was just JPM was less convincing, because of having to fight his way through the field with a dominant car, by the time he did get to 2nd, he was miles behind Ralf.

At Magny-Cours, they started at the front, and finished that way. But either way, in both races, JPM never had a chance.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Mat
At Magny-Cours, they started at the front, and finished that way. But either way, in both races, JPM never had a chance.

True for the Nurburgring but at Magny-Cours Ralf exited the pits something like 30-40 meters ahead of Juan.

That is pretty close.

[Mat]

and it would have been the same at nurburg if he was with him from the start, but he wasnt. Just because he was that close doesnt mean he had any chance to win.

[HP]

I do think theat JPM performed as well as ever, but he is off the main radar of the media, and I think that influences the perception of him. If anything, this wasn't a year where JPM has had the extra boost from the media hype, nor was the Williams the car it was supposed to be.

[Melbourne Park]

After looking at A Piz.'s times, I thought considering where he started, the traffic etc. and AP's experience, I thought AP could develop into having the speed of JPM. Of course, Williams have said AP is as fast as JPM, we know but racing is another matter. I also think basing JPM's speed upon the comparative performance of his team mate is not very instructive, especially if one concludes that Ralf isn't particularly quick. A problem with Ralf is that he is not consistent, which gives aids the comparison between JPM and Ralf. And IMO Ralf has been getting less consistent.

It will be interesting to see how JPM performs next year against KR. KR is now experienced enough to have no excuses. More so JPM, who IMO cannot blaim McLaren being a new team on comparitive performance issues. IMO we'll know next year whether JPM is just one of the top 6 F1 drivers, or one of the top couple of drivers.

[brooster51]

I looked at the first 8 races this season and on finishing in 4 JPM scored better than RS, 3 RS scored better than JPM, and the both DNF'd in 1. In the races JPM scored better than RS, he finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th while RS finished 4th, 6th, and 7th. Looked at this way, JPM clearly did better. If you look at absolute measures of speed, grid place and fastest lap, JPM grided a head of RS 7 out of 8 times. The one time RS bettered JPM was that almost unbelievable qualifing in Canada. So on grid, JPM out classified RS consistently. On fastest laps, JPM scored better lap times at 5 out of 8 events where in 1 neither JPM or RS finished the first lap.

On the statistics, JPM seems to have pretty clearly outclassed RS in the first 8 races.

Looking at JPMs performance from the first to the eigth race, it does seem to trail off in the last four races. While not dramatically worse, still not as good as the first four.

So as it pertains to JPM in the first eight races, he clearly outperformed RS and JPMs performance appears to have begun to trail off. JPM doesn't seem to be the type of driver to 'give up'. So I think the article may have more than a little truth.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
It will be interesting to see how JPM performs next year against KR. KR is now experienced enough to have no excuses. More so JPM, who IMO cannot blaim McLaren being a new team on comparitive performance issues. IMO we'll know next year whether JPM is just one of the top 6 F1 drivers, or one of the top couple of drivers.

Ehm, if KR beats JPM next year it doesn't mean JPM is "only" top 6. He could still be top 2. And vice versa, if JPM comes on top then KR could still be top 2, easily.

[pUs]

Originally posted by karlth


Anyway for posters here to complain about Montoya's performance this season is simply laughable considering the results his teammates managed in equal machinery.

I agree. And why don't we apply that very same logic when we analyse Michael Schumacher's whole career so far?

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by HSJ
Ehm, if KR beats JPM next year it doesn't mean JPM is "only" top 6. He could still be top 2. And vice versa, if JPM comes on top then KR could still be top 2, easily.

According to your logical way of thinking, that means they can never be clearly 1&2. Alonso, Webber, MS, Button, why even Rubens, might all have claims to be better according to the basis that drivers must be compared according to their team mate. I don't base my views on such. If JPM's 0.3 seconds behind KR on average for the whole season, I'd be rating JPM as top six, but only just. Who knows, I may rate Alonso #1 next year. But if Ralf wins the WDC, I'll buy a new Toyota.

[checkonetwo]

i think it´s fair to say that montoya was more convincing over the whole season than ralf. again. while ralf probably has even more potential than monty, he will never fulfill it.

over the course of their williams partnership, i`d concede a small advantage montoyas over ralf, but that`s it. i also thought pizzonias performance was better than average and in direct comparison with juan pretty eyebrow-raising.

either way, expecting montoya to have a really hard time next year. he will have to drive his socks off. but kudos to him for partnering kimi.

[sensible]

Originally posted by HSJ


Ehm, if KR beats JPM next year it doesn't mean JPM is "only" top 6. He could still be top 2. And vice versa, if JPM comes on top then KR could still be top 2, easily.

Getting your excuses in early I see.

[Schuperman]

Originally posted by HSJ
Ehm, if KR beats JPM next year it doesn't mean JPM is "only" top 6. He could still be top 2. And vice versa, if JPM comes on top then KR could still be top 2, easily.

Please be clear, I m a bit confused here .. Are you saying if KR beats JPM... JPM could still be considered top 2, thus KR is top 1...and vice versa? HSJ, how/ where do you rate JPM at the moment? And other than Kimi, who do you think better than JPM (in driving and winning, not driving and whining?)

[Henrik B]

Originally posted by Schuperman

Please be clear, I m a bit confused here

There's not much to clarify. If driver A beats his teammate, we can conclude - atleast for that year, in that car - that driver A is better than driver B. But if driver A is the best driver on the grid, driver B can still be second best, or for that matter sixth best. We can't tell. Yet again simple logic saves the day! That statement is true regardless of who says it, and which driver he supports.

[Sakae]

Originally posted by karlth


I think I can probably state as a fact that no top driver points at himself as the source of a team's lack of performance. Perhaps over a single race weekend but over the better part of a season? No.

At least since Brundle compared his driving to an "old tart" I don't remember a single instance of self described poor driving, over the season, by the better performing driver in a team.

Any Schumacher quotes you have handy to prove me wrong? When Michael started laying the blame during difficult times I seem to remember him always blaming the car or the tires, never himself. Then I guess you would be concerned about his attitude too?

Yes I had my concerns at the time about his (MS') mental strength. Sometimes one can be concerned about your own family, and still love them. As it happened however, Michael snapped out of it, and delivered the results we witnessed. Is JPM prepared to do the same? Last time I checked, he is running away from his problems at Williams, and trying to hide at McLaren. He is running away from (allegedly) another true blue racer in his hart, FW, by the way. Why do you think that is?

[The Soul Stealer]

Originally posted by karlth
Any Schumacher quotes you have handy to prove me wrong? When Michael started laying the blame during difficult times I seem to remember him always blaming the car or the tires, never himself. Then I guess you would be concerned about his attitude too?

At that stage Michael was a two time world champion... What's Montoya, a two time race winner?

[karlth]

Originally posted by The Soul Stealer
At that stage Michael was a two time world champion...

In 1992 and 1993?

[The Soul Stealer]

:yawn: After 66 races...

[karlth]

Originally posted by The Soul Stealer
:yawn: After 66 races...

And your point being?