269 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Do any of our American TNFers have particular recollections of such US 1958-1961 Lister-Jaguar and Lister-Chevrolet drivers as:

Pete Harrison
Art Huttinger
Gerry Georgi
Howard Quick
Bud Gates
Bob Colombosian
Chuck Howard
George Constantine
Fred Windridge
Bill Pollack
Ronnie Hissom...

...and of any other Lister pedallers that might be recalled, less the obvious stars, Walt Hansgen, Ed Crawford and Jim Hall...????

DCN

[TIPO61]

I heard tell that Hissom put a blower on his and took it to the drag strip. Wonder what the times were.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Moderately O/T: Not directly connected to your title but...

An interesting post, DCN, as I made a similar inquiry recently at the CMSHG(Candian Motorsport History Group; http://sports.groups...om/group/CMSHG/)on Listers that competed at Mosport in the early 1960's. I could not recall ever seeing an example and this seems to be confirmed by responses on that forum. Pity. Apparently, though, one did show for a vintage event a few years back and, IIRC, SSM himself took the wheel.

Would love to learn more about these hybrids.

[TIPO61]

Jack Brabham drove a particularly nifty looking Costin-Lister at Riverside one year.
Great looking car. Might have been referred to at the time as the 'Lister with a blister.'
Could be wrong on that though.

[xkssFrankOpalka]

I knew Howard Quick very well during my racing days, 1958-1971. he raced often with his Lister Jag at varoius Midwestern trtacks,I remember him very well at Wilmot Wisconsin track, a short track in southern Wisconsin. Was very impressed with the speed of the car. He was elderly at that time, I was a young whipper snapper racing my AH 100 LeMans.

[Magee]

In 1963 at Westwood track (near Vancouver BC) Bill Stephens ran his Kelly green Lister-Corvette (#BHL-124) for at least a season. This is the Tom Carstens' car still in competition last headquartered in the Eastern US (AFAIK).

[rdrcr]

If you haven't seen this already, Tam McPartland's site has some interesting bits ~

Bob Edmison's Lister-Chevrolet

Tam may have some additional info when he shows up next...

[tam999]

rdrdcr, I was moments away from posting when I saw your reply. So I only have to post one link instead of two!

In 1961, Dave Ridenour was a contender in west coast events in this Costin bodied car:

http://www.tamsoldra...enour.html#Dave Ridenour

Tam

[rdrcr]

Thanks Tam...

I Didn't mean to steal your thunder I figured you'd have more to add. Since I found your site a couple years back, I've been quite impressed by its volume and depth.

Frank turned me on to it... Between the two of you, you guys are covering quite a bit of sports racing car history.

[m.tanney]

Tam,

  You missed one. Here's a link to your website's photo of the Dean Van Lines Lister-Chevy raced by Bill Pollack in 1958. According to this story, also on your site, it's the car that was later raced by Wayne Weiler and others as the Fike Plumbing Special.
  Dick Wallen's Fabulous Fifties book has a photo of A.J. Foyt racing a Lister-Chev in the 1000kms of Daytona in 1959. Lloyd Ruby, who was a fine road racer, drove Eb Rose's Lister-Chev at a number of races that year.
  I agree with rdrdcr, you have a great website.

Mike

[tam999]

Mike-- Thanks for your nice words about my website. The site's become so overwhelmingly huge that I've long since lost track of everything that's on it. Thanks for digging up the Weiler-Hulette Lister-Chevy.

Although he's an "obvious star", here's a link to Jim Hall's Lister-Chevy at Santa Barbara in 1958:

http://www.tamsoldra...t/JimHall2.html

Tam

[Doug Nye]

Great gen - thanks a million fellers - Brabham drove the interim Jaguar E2A at Riverside, by the way, not a 'Lister with a Blister' but thanks for the input '61... Tam - brilliant site...

DCN

[WINO]

It is hard to determine the change in ownership of the various Listers in the U.S. in the late 50s/early 60s.

Briggs Cunninham had three knobbly cars and one Costin, always Jaguar-engined, and raced them at a SCCA National level in 1958 and 1959. with a single leftover knobbly in a few 1960 races, until Chuck Daigh could not qualify it for the Times GP.

Jim Hall was a Lister importer in the SouthWest, via his Carroll Shelby Sports Cars agency in Dallas. He drove a black one with Chevy engine, eventually supercharged without success. His pal Ronnie Hissom go his through Hall and supercharged it as well.

Freddy Windridge and George Constantine drove the same Kelso Chevy-engined knobbly in 1958 and 1959 respectively, owned by DuPont heir Mrs Boden.

Bob Colombosian's car started life as an early Lister/Bristol.

Bud Gates upgraded his knobbly with new suspension and called it an Apache.

Ebb Rose never owned a Lister/Chevy and his driver Lloyd Ruby never sat at the wheel of one.

Jack Brabham never drove a Lister in the US, but the Jag E2A in the 1960 Times GP [the same year Daigh could not qualify his knobbly] and a Cooper Monaco in the 1960 Examiner GP.


WINO

[David McKinney]

Cunningham drivers 1958: Hansgen, Crawford, O‘Connor, Scott-Brown
Cunningham drivers 1959 (in 1958 cars) : Hansgen, Thompson, Cunningham, Underwood, Moss, Boss
Cunningham drivers 1959 (Costin) : Hansgen, Windridge, Forno, Cnm, Fitch, Crawford
Cunningham drivers 1960 (Costin) : Hugus

Some more names, culled from a variety of sources (and not updated from data appearing in this thread)
”knobbly” cars
1958
Ed Holmes, Ohio (Chevrolet)
Kelso Aerodynamic
Jim Hall (Corvette)
Tom Carstens (Corvette)
Mrs Henry Clark Bowden/Fred Windridge (Corvette)
Hallahan (Corvette)
Jack Flaherty (Jaguar)
Al Dean/Bill Pollack (Corvette) California
195?
Bill Ensley/Phil Forno (allegedly)
1959
Nicky Chevrolet
Mrs Clark Bowden/Windridge
Jack Flaherty
1960
Constantine (Corvette)
Nicky Chevrolet

Costin-bodied cars
1959
Cunningham (2 cars?)
Tom Carstens (Chev)
Boeing (special streamlined body, Chev)
Connors (Corvette)
1960
Tom Carstens
Lew Florance (ex-Carstens)
1961
Lew Florance
Maj Wm Sorrell, Calif
Dave Ridenour (Jaguar) Calif

unknown models
1960
Bob Grossman (Jaguar)
Ed Hugus (Jaguar)
Don Hulette (Corvette)
Bud Gates (Corvette)
Floyd Aaskov (Buick)
1961
Charles Jefferson (Jaguar)
Peter Harrison (Corvette)
Art Huttinger (Corvette)
Bob Colombosian (Buick)

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by WINO
Ebb Rose never owned a Lister/Chevy and his driver Lloyd Ruby never sat at the wheel of one.

WINO - thanks for a very informative post but what triggered the above sentence in it????

DCN

[Bob Brzezinski]

Doug, there was a pretty good book published years ago called "Powered by Jaguar", IIRC, that may have some info on this subject. ;)

Seriously, I don't know if you've seen it or not, but Bill Pollack just published a book called "Red Wheels and White Sidewalls" that discusses his Lister experiences. I recently received mine in the mail but other than a cursory thumb-through have not had an opportunity to examine it thoroughly:

http://brownfoxbooks.../RedWheels.html

Are you working on another book or mag article on the subject? I can only hope, as Lister information is near and dear to me--

Bob

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by WINO
Ebb Rose never owned a Lister/Chevy and his driver Lloyd Ruby never sat at the wheel of one.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
WINO - thanks for a very informative post but what triggered the above sentence in it????
DCN

  My fault Doug. Just before I posted my message, I was looking at Martin Krejci's USAC Road Racing Series stats. Somehow, I came away with the "fact" that Ruby and Rose had a Lister-Chev. As soon as I read WINO's messages, I went back for another look. No such car for that driver/owner. My mind was obviously playing tricks on me. Lesson learned: no more posting after midnight. My apologies for the misinformation.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Bob Brzezinski
Doug, there was a pretty good book published years ago called "Powered by Jaguar", IIRC, that may have some info on this subject. ;)

Guilty as charged - I've been given two weeks in which to update my 1980 book covering the HWMs, Coopers, Tojeiros and Listers powered by the Jaguar engine for a revised and extended edition - so right now I'm running up the down escalator - with help from friends like Mike Argetsinger, Bill Green, Michael Lynch and...your goodselves - to hit the date. And all because I'm slow - I know, now there's a surprise - with BRM Vol 3.

DCN

[WINO]

David,

The unknown 1960 entries of Bob Grossman and Ed Hugus were Cunningham knobbly Lister/Jags. Briggs must have sold his Costin car before he disposed of the last knobbly. as the Costin was never entered in 1960.

Grossman raced the knobbly at Bridgehampton in August 1960, Hugus raced the same car in the September 1960 Road America 500. After Daigh's 4th place finish in the Times GP consolation race that year the car was never raced again by BSC.

Another Lister/Chevy driver seen in the early sixties was Ed Lowther, in events on the East Coast.


WINO

[Pedro 917]

BRM Vol 3. is what I'm waiting for.....

Although they raced before "my time", I really love these cars. Here are some more Lister pictures from the Classic Spa 6H :

The Lister-Jaguar of Bob Gilbert :





and the Lister-Corvette of Julian Bronson :

[Bob Brzezinski]

I love 'em, too. I'll never be able to afford a real one, but here is my personal tribute. 540 hp, 1975 pounds:



Doug, I searched a long time for a copy of "Powered by Jaguar." I look forward to adding the updated version to my bookshelf.

[WINO]

Guys,

Can we keep his thread to the historical aspects of the Listers rather than put up photos of bad replicas or tarted-up, overrestored cars with massive rollbars and girliemen drivers with full face helmets? They are an abomination and lightyears away from what the Listers were all about.

WINO

[xkssFrankOpalka]

I seem to remember the Kelso car was painted flat black.

[TIPO61]

Kelso had white splashes on the fenders reminicent of the fact that the car was named for the racehorse.

[rdrcr]

Best of luck with the reprint Doug... and the next installment in the BRM series!

WINO, I won't speak of Bob's display of his "close but no cigar" car... but over-restored Listers are better than not seeing them at all. (..and I like Luc's shots)

More to the point, I've found that "policing" around here is as fruitless as it is unappreciated.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Do any of our American TNFers have particular recollections of such US 1958-1961 Lister-Jaguar and Lister-Chevrolet drivers as:

...and of any other Lister pedallers that might be recalled, less the obvious stars, Walt Hansgen, Ed Crawford and Jim Hall...????

I can add some information on a couple of names that came up here...

Dave Ridenour died in an accident during an NARC Sprint Car race at Calistoga, California on July 3, 1966.

Wayne Weiler was a short track open wheel driver from Arizona who did get all the way to Champ Cars and Indy before suffering a serious head injury in a flip during a USAC Sprint Car race in the early 1960's. He recuperated and returned to racing in the late 60's. Driving a Peat Brothers 'T' bodied Super Modified in the 100 mile Super Modified/Sprint Car open competition race on the 1 mile dirt oval at the California State Fairgrounds in 1968, Weiler was being lapped by eventual winner Jerry Blundy, but was convinced he was battling for the lead and sort of overdid it...over the guard rail and out of the track with just a lap or two to go. Fortunately, he was not seriously injured, but lost sure second place money (to top it all of one of the Peat Brothers, twins, was injured in a street collision on their way to the hospital to check on Weiler. Peat was injured worse than Weiler and their truck was demolished). Weiler finished up his driving career around 1974, racing Midgets with the newly formed Mighty Midgets of Arizona club. He is retired and, last I heard, owns a farm in Arizona.

I'm sure I could provide a contact to him easily if desired, because I know of someone who just recently spoke to him...strangely enough, about the Lister.

[Frank S]

Photo and a word or two about the Daigh-driven Cunningham car at Riverside 1960 on/from this page; Constantine makes an appearance, also.

--
Frank S

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by TIPO61
Kelso had white splashes on the fenders reminicent of the fact that the car was named for the racehorse.

Forgive my English ignorance - but what racehorse?

DCN

[WINO]

Not sure about the background of the mentioned race horse either, but the team logo [on the hood, not the fenders] featured one. Team owner was a du Pont, Marguerite du Pont de Villiers-Ortiz, born in Delaware in 1907, and she was into horses as well as fast cars. A second marriage provided her a new name: Mrs. Harry Clark Boden IV and a son, named Kip Kelso Boden. The Kelso team started out in 1957 with he old Bill Lloyd 300S Maserati and then switched to a Lister/Chevy.


WINO

[WINO]

Forgot to include Jim Rathmann, who drove a Lister/Chevy for the Hall agency in the September 1959 USAC Formula Libre race at Meadodale. Lost his brakes while running fourth.

Len Sutton drove the Kelso Lister in 1961, during the Hoosier GP at IRP.

WINO

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by WINO
Guys,

Can we keep his thread to the historical aspects of the Listers rather than put up photos of bad replicas or tarted-up, overrestored cars with massive rollbars and girliemen drivers with full face helmets? They are an abomination and lightyears away from what the Listers were all about.

WINO

Amen. It is a neverending source of amusement/amazement that how few "Listers" on this side of The Pond are truly Listers. Then to see them on the track.... oh, well....

[Bob Brzezinski]

What a bunch of snobs. Thank you for dismissing two years of work, late nights in the garage, and hard-earned money as a "bad replica." Excuse me for sharing my enthusiasm for the subject. Have a nice day.

[Doug Nye]

Bob - I doubt that Don directed that post at you and yours. I spent four years building a fake C-Type Jaguar for myself and I find it great fun too. You're among friends...

DCN

[Pedro 917]

Well Bob, guess we're not one of the "Guys"

[Don Capps]

Wait a damn minute, here. It is not the Bobs of the world who are the problem. Bob is perfectly up front in what he is going and he is doing it for all the Right Reasons -- because he wants to and because it is a Fun Thing To Do. Plus, his is investing something most of the girlie-men certainly don't -- sweat equity in his car. Were there more Bobs in the world, I might have a slightly different view of the vintage racing world. The polar opposite of Bob is the guy who commissions an outright fraud in attempting to pass off his "Lister" as the pukka article and then goes ballistic when his copy is pointed out to be -- a copy. Bob, sorry you got your bowels in an uproar, but there is a HUGE difference between you and too many of the others out on the track with you.

Sometimes I do get a bit tired of being labelled a "snob" for stating the obvious in the increasingly putrid world of vintage racing cars or in the growing misuse of history in motor racing. So be it I guess because I am caring less and less about what some think. Plus, this whole business of everyone getting their panties in a wad all the time is one reason TNF has lost much of its luster in my opinion.

[Doug Nye]

There you go Bob - told you so...

PS - Mind you - if WINO and Don are going to call Julian Bronson a 'girlieman' to his face, can I watch? You'll need all your training and experience Don.

PPS - Don't ever confuse British and European Historic sports car racing with the kind of general driving timidity I have seen on my two visits to Monterey - if that is typical of US 'Vintage' racing?

PPPS - Bronson's Lister has well over 500bhp on tap, he's almost my size and in a phrase I heard at Laguna "My Gahd he's slidin' the automobile"...on every corner. And the beauty of it is that over here he's not alone...we keep the best of these Lister blokes in cages, and only occasionally throw them red meat...they don't need encouraging. Watch out for the DVD/VHS of this past Goodwood Revival Meeting and you will see exactly what I mean...

DCN

[Don Capps]

I have no problems with someone racing a Replica or Fake in "vintage" events or wherever as long as it is stated up front that it is what it is, a Replica or a Fake. One reason is that these cars are often infinitely safer than the genuine articles -- I never cease to marvel that we kill as few "vintage" racing sorts as we do each year. Then again, too often it appears that more than a few "vintage" racing sorts seems to missing the point that it is supposed to be fun and small-s sport, not big-s Sport and more of the "for me to win my enemies must lose" mentality which is becoming all too common in places where things used to be done just for the hell of it -- now people keep score and there are articles in glossy magazines....

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Forgive my English ignorance - but what racehorse?

DCN

The brown gelding Kelso was a great-grandson of Man O' War. He raced 8 seasons and earned more top honors than any other horse before or since.

Born in 1957 in Maryland, he won 39 races and earned the praise of one of his famous jockeys, Eddie Arcaro, as well as had his own fan club. He was the first 3 year old to be named Horse of the Year and not win a Triple Crown race.

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
"There you go Bob - told you so...

PS - Mind you - if WINO and Don are going to call Julian Bronson a 'girlieman' to his face, can I watch? You'll need all your training and experience Don...."

DCN

You could sell tickets for that alone...

[Mark Godfrey]

I recently published Bill Pollack's autobiography and from his information, the Knobbly Lister Bill raced was originally purchased by Tom Carstens. Bruce Crower of San Diego built the Chevrolet engine for Carstens. Carstens sold the Lister (BHL110) to Al Dean. Bill raced it first at the '58 Times Grand Prix at Riverside for Dean.

Bill's primary recollection of the car is the trouble he had with the aerodynamics. The front end would lift at speed and the high fender bulges would effectively block out everything on either side of the car, passing cars was problematic as they would disappear behind the Lister bodywork.

The last race of Bill's career was at Laguna Seca Raceway in this Lister. This Lister came to its end as The Sorrell/Larkin Special in a ball of fire at Riverside Raceway where it was buried at Turn One. Here is another link to Tam's site, this page featuring a great photo of the burning special. http://www.tamsoldra...#Sorrell-Larkin

We have a newer page on Bill Pollack's book "Red Wheels and White Sidewalls" where you can download a 26 page PDF sample of the book. http://brownfoxbooks...eSidewalls.html


Mark Godfrey

[Doug Nye]

Does anyone recall - or did anyone attend - a Lister celebration meeting also attended by Brian Lister - I think at Lime Rock - probably either in 1988 or 1998? I am told that a 'time warp' Cunningham-liveried 'Knobbly' Lister emerged there. Does anyone recall it - or better still have photos of it?

DCN

[humphries]

A few more names of American drivers who raced Listers in USSRC (1963), National (1962, 1963), plus Divisional and Regional events from 1962. Information from SCCA SportsCar.

1962 Art Huttinger Lister-Chevrolet ( Florida )

1962 David Lane Lister-Chevrolet ( Florida )

1962 NASCAR's Joe Weatherly Lister-Chevrolet ( Daytona"Continental" ) 31st

1962 Anson Johnson Lister-Chevrolet ( Daytona "Continental" ) 34th

1962 Hal Keck Lister-Chevrolet - big accident Marlboro 15 April, repaired for Cumberland 13 May, Watkins Glen

1962 Ed Lowther Lister- Chevrolet Marlboro bright yellow

1962 Pete Harrison Lister-Chevrolet Marlboro, Danville, Cumberland, Bridgehampton, Road America

1962 Tracy Bird ( just ) Lister ( California )

1962 Gene Hobbs Lister-Chevrolet (SE Division ) Cumberland, Bridgehampton, Lime Rock

1962 Gerry Georgi Lister-Buick Bridgehampton, Thompson

1962 Eno DePasquale Lister-Buick Lime Rock

1962 Don Adams Lister-Jaguar Thompson

1962 Howard Quick/ Hal Ullrich Lister-Jaguar Road America 500 9th

1962 Lew Florence Lister-Chevrolet (NW Region )

1962 Ted Peterson Lister-Jaguar ( California ) Costin

1962 John Snyder Lister-Chevrolet ( Delta region )

1962/63 Graham Shaw Lister-Chevrolet ( Florida )

1963 Hal Keck Lister-Chevrolet Cumberland

1963 Ed Lowther Lister-Chevrolet ( Steel Cities region ) Road America, USSRC Watkins Glen (6th), USSRC Mid-Ohio (5th)

1963 Howard Quick Lister-Jaguar Road America, Road America 500 with Hal Ullrich again

1963 Eno DePasquale Lister-Chevrolet ( New York ) Lime Rock Thompson

1963 John Snyder Lister-Chevrolet USSRC Watkins Glen, Road America 500

1963 Bill Stephens Lister-Chevrolet USSRC Pacific Raceways

1963 Art Habershin Lister-Corvette ( Florida )

1964 Bob Piekarski Lister-Jaguar ( NE Region )

1964 Mike Jenkins Lister-Chevrolet ( Arizona )

1964 Richard Stolz Lister-Jaguar ( New York )

1965 Carl Stringfellow Lister ( Alabama )

1966 B.Goodrich Lister-Jaguar ( New York )

1966/67 Richard T. Dagiel Lister-Jaguar ( Chicago )

John

[Ted Walker]

Can anyone supply chassis numbers to go with these American Listers ???. I beleive the Boeing Aircraft car was 128, as I once bought it only to be "shafted" by a well known dealer.

[Frank S]

There are photos of four Lister cars, identified from program information as BHL114, BHL118, BHL119, and BHL124 in this Monterey 2003 Album.

In this Monterey 2004 album are photos of BHL2, BHL18, BHL108, and BHL114.

Are BHL numbers original designations by Lister, or some kind of certification of British Historic Lister-ness?

Race results are under "2004 Event" and "2003 Event".


--
Frank S

[Doug Nye]

Frank - thanks for your input. The 'BHL' initials are those of 'Brian Horace Lister', creator and manufacturer of the original cars in period. He issued numbers to purchasers of his cars, but the cars could be supplied built and running, or as rolling chassis ready to be fitted with a sutomer's engine, or as kits of completely unassembled parts. In the first case cars were stamped at the Cambridge works (in all probability) in order to provide Customs IDs matching the necessary paperwork for exportation. Cars supplied to UK customers who perhaps intended NO overseas racing for their new cars may or may not have been stamped, or in some other way identified to clear contemporary licensing and Purchase Tax demands/inspections. Those parts supplied as kits for an owner and/or his own mechanics to assemble probably never had a factory number stamping at all - Brian would send a letter to the owner authorising him to use the chassis serial 'BHL-whateveritmightbe'.

The modern BHL number listings stem in the main from a prospective listing drawn up partly by research, partly by logical elminiation and partly by guesswork by Dr Philippe Renault - the leading French Jaguar collector and sometime owner of several Listers - in the 1970s. When I wrote the original edition of my book I had proved to myself that much of that list was horse-feathers, many cars around were fakes or had been faked, and that there were more out there which should have survived and were waiting to be found. Now we're much closer to establishing the truth - whether or not I have the intestinal fortitude to publish as much as we know is perhaps another matter...

I'll try to be honest and also to be fair to some who have since bought in good faith...

DCN

[xkssFrankOpalka]

Saw Rich Dagiel last week at a car show, Bud Gates used to race a Genie with V8 power, I see Hal Ullrichs brother Bill often.

[Gerr]

DCN,
I don't recall a Lister reunion in '88 or '98. There were two in 1992, a week apart at Lime Rock and at Watkins Glen. This fellow has photos available from the the Glen.
http://www.gordonjol.....RA Events.htm
Scroll down to 9226.
Perhaps he has something on the time-warp car.

[Ron Scoma]

Doug:

As we discussed a year or so ago, Roland Urban has a few Listers including the engine, he claims, out of a Monzanapolis car. I am not sure of the parentage of his cars and somewhere I have the chassis numbers but if it's important to your work I will spend the time and dig them out. Supposedly one of his cars was shipped, sans engine, to Carroll Shelby, or so the story goes. And these Lister stories sure go far it seems...
Also, Tom MacArthur had a Lister Chevy a number of years back (20 or so). It MAY have started out as a Lister Jaguar. I will see him in a week or two. If there's anything I can ask him let me know. I'm not sure he's wired to the Internet.
George Boyd had a wide angle engine laying around for quite a while before the tornado hit his barn and I recall him mentioning that it was from a Lister. If you need that number I can try to unearth that too.
Kind Regards,

Ron Scoma
#41

[Doug Nye]

This is all so helpful - thanks Gerr - thanks Ron - I'll be in a position to clarify some of what appears to have been the genuine situation 1957-1960 quite quickly at this rate. Ho hum - I'll end up (again) being about as popular as a BRDC bug in BCE's office wall...

DCN

[RTH]

On the subject of 'fakes' call them what you will , I cannot help but think we are now seriously going down the wrong path, - when in this months 'MotorSport' brand new ready to go Crossle 9S and Lotus 23 sportscars are openly on sale with full page ads, and apparently Mr Mosley has now decreed that as long as it looks like a historic car even if its all new with latest metallurgy etc it can race against real ones in the future.
Just where will this take us ?