311 replies to this topic

[David Holland]

Reading one of Haymarket's comics last week, Danny Sullivan mentioned the influence of the Windsor Castle pub in Kensington in the 1980s as a meeting place for UK motor racing. I know of the Steering Wheel club in Mayfair, but maybe this wasn't a proper public house. So before the new TNF meeting venues become legendary in motor racing circles I wondered what other drinking establishments have similar status or have other lesser links to the racing world.

There are some I know near the great circuits such as the White Horse & Green Man at Silverstone. Also Duncan Hamilton used to stay at the Jersey Arms at nearby Middleton Stoney when racing and his signed picture (driving his Talbot-Lago) is still up in the dining area. In Mike Hawthorn's "Champion Year" he mentions his regular races from Goodwood to the pubs in Midhurst - although the Bricklayers, Spread Eagle & Coal Hole may have gone since the 50s. The pub where he usually had his steak and chips is still very much in existence as I called by the Duke of Cumberland at Henley-on-the-Hill this year - a superb English pub down a tiny one lane wooded road with trout pools in the garden.

I've also read that Peter walker was a regular at the Horse & Groom in Hereford and the New Inn at Pembridge, while Leslie Marr lived at the White Horse in Pulverbatch, Shropshire in the late 50s.

North of the border, I believe David Murray owned the Mitre in Edinburgh's Royal Mile.

Julian Bailey sold the pub he owned with his brother in St Margarets, Hertfordshire to fund his drive with Tyrrell - I believe it was called the Running Mare (definately something horsey anyway).

And not forgetting the Barley Mow in East Horsley which must have seen its fair share of racing legends over the years.

I realise some may not be interesting unless you happen to live nearby but what better excuse to spend some time in a great British institution? Any others to add to the list?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by David Holland

Reading one of Haymarket's comics last week, Danny Sullivan mentioned the influence of the Windsor Castle pub in Kensington in the 1980s as a meeting place for UK motor racing.

Indeed the Windsor Castle was one of the racing pubs. I joined Autosport in 1979 when the editorial department were in Regent House, and the ad department were in Dean Street, Soho. It was very well received news, therefore, when new premises were found for the whole magazine in Notting Hill Gate - just a short walk from the Windsor Castle! The euphoria was short-lived, however, as we were all transfered to Teddington not long afterwards.

However, that move plonked us quite close to the Magpie in Sunbury, and another pub in Shepperton which I can never seem to remember the name of! Both were very much racing watering holes, with the Brabham and WSR guys frequenting the latter...

My brother now works in the old March premises on Murdoch Road in Bicester, and it always amuses me to think that the main criteria which decided the original founders to set up base in Bicester was the fact that it had the highest ratio of pubs per capita of any town in the UK!

[Geoff E]

To stretch the topic somewhat, are there any more pubs with motor racing names?

I'm aware of the "Bugatti" near Prescott.

And, of course, the "Chequered Flag" somewhere in India

http://www.hinduonne...90400920200.htm

[David Beard]

This pub seems to boast motor sport connections....

http://forums.atlasf...&highlight=nude

[Andrew Fellowes]

The Green Man on a practice day prior to a big weekend, 30 years ago, amazing who would be there having an ale at lunch time.

[bill moffat]

As an ex-Notting Hill resident my memories of the Windsor Castle are, by definition, somewhat blurred. I migrated from the nearby Sun in Splendour when, in a moment of rare student insight, I realised thay my fellow drinkers seemed to all grow trim moustaches and took to wearing black leather vests.

In the beer garden at the W.C. (as I'm afraid we knew it) was a small brick hutch which housed a long suffering tortoise. It lived off a diet of burger buns and Youngs Special and must have been permanently drunk or hungover.

Further to David's entry I can only endorse the Duke of Cumberland at Henley on the Hill. After a day at Goodwood there is no finer place to be.

Oh, and Julian Bailey's brother still owns a bar, albeit in Menorca, but that's another story..

[bill moffat]

..and of course the Portobello Inn at Brands Hatch (West Kingsdown).

As fate would have it I shared a drink (coffee if you must ask) with Phil the ex Landlord of the Portobello just this lunchtime. He was there in the "glory days" and has some toe-curling stories to tell. My lips are, naturally, sealed.;)

[john medley]

A far cry from your traditional English pub... a far cry from almost anything, really, was the late Lou Molina's Anchor and Hope Hotel in Richmond, Melbourne. Lou was a trained chef , the food was good, the beer was good, but the very large back room ( before the disastrous fire) was the spectacular bit : Lou packed a mountain of his motor racing memorabilia into it from floor to ceiling, all done to the peak of Bad Taste ( which Lou had perfected to comedic heights) . Even the chandeliers were illegally wide Rudge Whitworth wheels off Lou's MG TC racer " Vulgarilla"; all his bad taste numberplates (like HUN 000/JAP 111/WOG 000...that had been on his Jaguars/ Ferraris etc, cars often signwritten " Sylvester the Molester") and photos and trophies adorned the walls. There was not a spare inch of space on any wall : an incredible and fascinating .museum


Lou was a great bloke, a very funny man, and a fully paid up member of the Melbourne Mafia . The Anchor and Hope reflected a lot of Lou. There were many great parties there

[FrankB]

Originally posted by john medley
A far cry from your traditional English pub...

Rosie's Bar in Monaco - is it still flourishing, and is the tablecloth (bedsheet?) that was embroidered with drivers' signatures still there?

[Twin Window]

Excuse me if this is incorrect, but I seem to recall that Rosie sold the bar not long after my first visit there in 1981.

As is the case with most of my generation, and of course those preceding, that place has a special significance. I was really pee'd off to hear that it was changing hands, as it only ever means an inevitable abandonment of history...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by FrankB


Rosie's Bar in Monaco - is it still flourishing, and is the tablecloth (bedsheet?) that was embroidered with drivers' signatures still there?

The Tip-Top is still there too - and still mediocre, or at least was when I last visited in 2001 --something Graham Hill observed in the '65 chapter of his autobiography

The night of the race we went to the Tip-Top, a little bar which doesn't seem to have much to recommend it except that it sells drink, but it is a popular meeting place for all the British contingent - we always go there. I look in every year, and every year the owner treats me to a drink - this year it was champagne. After the official prizegiving I had my drink with the owner of the Tip-Top and a plate of spaghetti."

[bill moffat]

After Rover teamed up with BRM for their Le Mans outings there then followed a long gap before the SD1's became a dominant force in Gp 1 racing in the UK.

This generated much national pride, to the extent that a pub in Coronation Street was named "Rover's Return".

[BRG]

TNF is an international forum, which is one of its greatest strengths, so what of elsewhere?

We have one bid from Melbourne (and we all know the Aussies know as much about pubs as the Brits) but what about the US or Canada? Maybe not in these PC days, but surely in more relaxed eras there were bars near famous racing venues favoured by the boys?

And I cannot imagine that our enthusiastic beer-drinking European brethren didn't do the same. The Belgians, Germans and Dutch all down more beer per capita than the wimpy Brits! So where did they go after 10 hard laps of the Nordschliefe? Or to get the sand out of their throats at Zandvoort? Or to dry off outside whilst wetting the inside, after slithering around Spa?

I guess I know one of the answers for le Mans - the Bar Vingt-Quatre Heures at Huandieres.

[VAR1016]

A famous one was the Hand & Spear near Brooklands a popular haunt in the 1930s.popularly known amongst its habituees as the "Hand & Spike".

Another from the Hawthorn era, on the A286 and therefore between Goodwood and London, is the Dog & Pheasant at Brook. One section of ceiling between the beams has not been re-decorated as it contains a number of drivers' signatures; Duncan Hamilton's bold script was clearly visible last time I was there.

PdeRL

[D-Type]

There are several watering holes mentioned in Mon Ami, Mate - I'll have a look and list them when I can tear myself away from the new Motor Sport or MotorSport as they appear to have renamed it.

[rdrcr]

Institutions in America:

Seibkins Bar at the Resort in Elkhart Lake is world famous as is the bar at the Seneca Lodge in Watkins Glen.

[MCS]

Originally posted by D-Type
There are several watering holes mentioned in Mon Ami, Mate - I'll have a look and list them when I can tear myself away from the new Motor Sport or MotorSport as they appear to have renamed it.

Tear yourself away D-Type ? Are you being sarcastic ?;)

I read it in one sitting last night.

Only bits to commend it - in my view - are the two French circuit pieces:

Angouleme, brilliantly done by Alan Cox with some lovely pictures and the Boulogne visit which fascinated me as I tried to find this a few years back. But with too little time and poor maps I struggled, although I instantly recognised some of the pictures which was quite heartening.

The rest, as they say was...well, let's just say Angouleme and Boulogne have deferred my decision for another month...

MCS

[Mark Bennett]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Excuse me if this is incorrect, but I seem to recall that Rosie sold the bar not long after my first visit there in 1981.

As is the case with most of my generation, and of course those preceding, that place has a special significance. I was really pee'd off to hear that it was changing hands, as it only ever means an inevitable abandonment of history...

It's not there anymore (I looked for it in 2001), but it was certainly still there in 1991. As I recall it was due to be demolished in the 80's, but was moved up (or down?) the road instead at the behest of Prince Rainier - maintaining the autographs on the walls as it went... (I know - it sounds unlikely!).

I bought a t-shirt from Rosie and (Jean-Paul?/Jean-Claude?) on my visit in 1991. But I would not be suprised to hear that they had retired, they must have been old enough (no offence meant to anyone).

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by BRG

We have one bid from Melbourne (and we all know the Aussies know as much about pubs as the Brits) but what about the US or Canada? Maybe not in these PC days, but surely in more relaxed eras there were bars near famous racing venues favoured by the boys?

And I cannot imagine that our enthusiastic beer-drinking European brethren didn't do the same. The Belgians, Germans and Dutch all down more beer per capita than the wimpy Brits! So where did they go after 10 hard laps of the Nordschliefe? Or to get the sand out of their throats at Zandvoort? Or to dry off outside whilst wetting the inside, after slithering around Spa?

Le Chanteclair in New York was owned by Rene Dreyfuss and had a lot of Bugatti conections - he used the Bugatti radiator as the restaurants logo, so items like ashtrays were rather popular souvenirs!

I vaguely remember that the bar behind the grandstand at Zolder used to have a single seater in it (memories are vague, this was 20+ years ago and we certainly had a few 'pintjes' during our visit).

There used to be (a few years ago) a café behind Woluwé shopping centre in Brussels, called Automobilia, that was motoring themed, frequented by the Jacky Ickx fan club, and most of the local classic car dealers.

At Spa there used to be a bar on the inside of the circuit at the bottom of Eau rouge (I watched a GP on the balcony of it, with Piquet & Nakajima(?) when they were meant to be racing for Camel Team Lotus (they failed to qualify)!!.

There is Cafe de la Source at the top of the hill and the hotel a bit further up the road.

The bar on P&O cross channel ferries are called Silverstone bar - of course they are nothing like as grotty as the real thing, and the prices are much lower.

[RTH]

'Pub Lotus' - opened in north London about 1967 - Colin Chapman was there on the opening night pulling pints with Elan gear levers, I was there. It was I seem to remember a short lived enterprise.

'The Mighty Midget 'a pub in the Abingdon area where "Old Speckled Hen " beer was started, - named after a works Midget in factory cream & brown livery and a fabric body that had become ripped and tattered and resembled , - an old speckled hen !

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by RTH
'Pub Lotus' - opened in north London about 1967 - Colin Chapman was there on the opening night pulling pints with Elan gear levers, I was there. It was I seem to remember a short lived enterprise.

I spent a frustrating hour or so trying to find it one night, but it appeared to have closed down - I never discovered it, or even anyone who would admit it had ever existed! Weren't the seats out of Elans as well? Or did dream that?

Originally posted by RTH
'The Mighty Midget 'a pub in the Abingdon area where "Old Speckled Hen " beer was started, - named after a works Midget in factory cream & brown livery and a fabric body that had become ripped and tattered and resembled , - an old speckled hen !

I understood it was an adaptation from the local accent: "old speckled 'un" sounding more like "old speckled 'en" to ears not trained in the nuances of the local tongue.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by RTH
'Pub Lotus' - opened in north London about 1967 - Colin Chapman was there on the opening night pulling pints with Elan gear levers, I was there. It was I seem to remember a short lived enterprise.

'The Mighty Midget 'a pub in the Abingdon area where "Old Speckled Hen " beer was started, - named after a works Midget in factory cream & brown livery and a fabric body that had become ripped and tattered and resembled , - an old speckled hen !

I heard a slightly different version of the origin of the name of that excellent beer. I think the story was put about by the brewer, so attach whatever credence to it as you like. The car in question wasn't necessarily tatty, it just had an unusual speckled paint finish (probably designed by an early Jackson Pollock type) - I think gold on a dark background. Whether this was by accident or design, I'm not sure, but the car was known in the works as the old speckled 'un.

[RTH]

Ian,

I've just watched 'The best of british - MG - the full and official story ' 75 min video , to check, where I heard the story.

The pub in Abingdon is (or was) called the "Magic Midget" named after a famous and highly successful team car which raced at Brooklands ( 20's/30's ?)

The brewer Morland (I bet they have been taken over now by a multi-national) created this beer for this pub after another very early team car where the tattered body in the hen like team colours resembled a chicken with ruffled feathers.

That is what they say , the narrator is Ian Norris it was made in 1996 the accuracy of the rest of the film is very good so I'm inclined to believe it.



There is a photo of Chapman pulling pints in a Club Lotus magazine - yes it was full of Elan parts and packed out the night I was there, I suppose it was far too gimickey to last more than a few months as a real pub.

[MCS]

Richard

Yes, you're right - Morland is now owned by Greene King and "Old Speckled Hen" is brewed in Bury St Edmunds at the Greene King "brewery"

I am the proud owner of a pair of Old Speckled Hen cufflinks - presented to me (never understood why) when I tried to flog Morlands some software way back when...I'll get my coat...

Mark

[Mallory Dan]

Richard, about Morlands, you're right I'm afraid. they were taken over in the mid-90s IIRc, but there is some good news. The purchaser was not a multi-National beer manufacturer, but in fact Greene King of Bury St Edmunds. So while OSH is no longer brewed in Abingdon, it is properly brewed by a traditional British brewer, that seems, to be committed to the UK 'proper beer' market.

GK have also taken over, in recent years, Ruddles, and Morrells, and continue to brew their beers, a sort of badge engineering I guess. While not perfect, much better fate than befell the likes of Boddies, Walkers, Matty Browns, Theakstins etc etc etc etc.

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by RTH

The brewer Morland (I bet they have been taken over now by a multi-national) created this beer for this pub after another very early team car where the tattered body in the hen like team colours resembled a chicken with ruffled feathers.

That is what they say , the narrator is Ian Norris it was made in 1996 the accuracy of the rest of the film is very good so I'm inclined to believe it.

The legend on the can of Morland "Old Speckled Hen" says, "Named after an unusual speckled vintage MG car". The logo on the can (or bottle) is octagonal.

[Andrew Kitson]

The father of Sportscar racer Ben Devlin has a pub near snetterton in the village of Caston. Lots of racing pictures in the bar.

Also near Snett, just up the A11 road before Attleborough is 'The Stag'. Always full of racing folk including Ralph Firman Sr. and Martin Donnelly. The motel next door is usual booked with competitors racing or testing at the circuit so the pub is very much a motor sport meeting place, especially weekends.

At Great Gransden near Cambridge is the 'Crown & Cushion'. Plenty of racing pictures in here and close to historic preperation experts Cambridge Motorsport. Once a month is 'Classic car day'. Lots of lovely cars turn up. Thursday night is band night, normally blues orientated. ex-rainbow keyboard player Don Airey is a regular and sometimes performs with his own band. He is off on tour playing keyboards for Deep Purple at the moment.

The nearby wartime aerodrome 'Gransden Lodge' hosted the first motor race meeting after the war.

[David Holland]

On the subject of drinking haunts outside the UK - I've just remembered that Harry Schell ran a bar in Paris. I think it was called "L'action Automobile" or something similar. I don't know where it was located but is probably long gone.

The bar in the basement of the Inn on the Lake at Sebring has a wall covered in racers' autographs and there are plenty of great pictures to drool over as well.

If stretched to restaurants we can include Bob Drake's in Los Angeles and 2 in Switzerland run by Rudi Fischer & Heini Walter - all former GP drivers.

[David Beard]

How about the Chateau Elan Inn....not only a Lotus name but owned by Don Panoz

http://www.chateauel.../inn/index.html

[bill moffat]

There can be few pub/hotels that are within a few metres of an internationally significant 8 mile track which has remained unchanged for the best part of a Century. Not only that but, depending on the time of the day, you can drive down a short ramp adjacent to the pub and enjoy unlimited use of said track. Any ideas ?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by bill moffat
There can be few pub/hotels that are within a few metres of an internationally significant 8 mile track which has remained unchanged for the best part of a Century. Not only that but, depending on the time of the day, you can drive down a short ramp adjacent to the pub and enjoy unlimited use of said track. Any ideas ?

Pendine?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Pendine?

The first place my brother and I ever drove a car! Parry Thomas territory, wasn't it?

[Hugo Boecker]

Originally posted by bill moffat
There can be few pub/hotels that are within a few metres of an internationally significant 8 mile track which has remained unchanged for the best part of a Century. Not only that but, depending on the time of the day, you can drive down a short ramp adjacent to the pub and enjoy unlimited use of said track. Any ideas ?

But you have to slow down normal pace above 300

[bill moffat]

The Beach Hotel at Pendine, spot on.

OK the hotel is a bit run down these days, but you can still imagine JGPT sitting aloft in a spitting and banging Babs descending the ramp at low tide for a bash at the LSR.

Unfortunately the Thought Police at Carmarthenshire County Council have realised that weekend motoring forays onto the sands could be a) a liberating experience and b) enjoyable..and have henceforth banned such activities on the grounds of noise and nuisance etc.

In the interests of national security low flying RAF Tornado aircraft bomb the s**t out of the beach for the rest of the week, but that's quite OK....

[LB]

There is of course the pub at Longford for our Tasmanian friends. That should either raise cries of delight or anguish depending on your point of view of the place.

[TIPO61]

There was the AutoPub in Manhatten. Neat place 'in the day.'

[David Beard]

Originally posted by bill moffat
The Beach Hotel at Pendine, spot on.

There must be an equivalent nearer to me adjacent to Southport beach.....

[FLB]

The Checkered Flag and the Flagroom in Indianapolis (or rather Speedway) are the only two racing-themed pubs I've visited. They're full of Indy stuff (of course) and sometimes racing personalities as well. Arie Luyendyk and Fred Treadway were enjoying a beer next to me while I was at the Flagroom this past May...

[D-Type]

Originally posted by D-Type
There are several watering holes mentioned in Mon Ami, Mate - I'll have a look and list them when I can tear myself away from the new Motor Sport or MotorSport as they appear to have renamed it.

As promised, I’ve been through Mon Ami Mate and have found that the pubs and restaurants listed below. Some have been mentioned already on this thread.

For Mike Hawthorn we have

The Barley Mow, Tilford
The Duke of Cambridge, Farnham
The Bush, Farnham
The Sally Lunn Restaurant, Bagshot
The Bricklayer’s Arms, Midhurst
The Spread Eagle Hotel, Midhurst
The Frensham Ponds Hotel, Rowledge?
The Bluebell, Rowledge?
The Star, Belgrave Square, London
The Talbot Hotel, Ripley
The Duke of Cumberland, Henley on the Hill
Hotel Albergo Reale, Modena
Auberge de la Garenne, Reims

and for Peter Collins

The Black Boy, Bewdley
L’Etoile, Paris
L’Action Automobile, Avenue d’Iena, Paris
Hotel Miami, Rue des Acacias, Paris
Fred Payne’s Bar, Rue Pigalle, Paris
The Old Inn, Crawfordsburn, Northern Ireland
The Angel Hotel, Bourne

Are any of these still in existence and worth visiting?

[Lotus23]

The bar of the Continental Hotel in LeMans was a popular racers' hangout in simpler times. I managed to encounter Phil Hill, Dan Gurney, Richie Ginther and Fireball Roberts in there one memorable evening in June '62. Phil was drinking Coke, Dan had a beer, Fireball bourbon. Can't recall what Richie had.

I have no idea if it still exists or not.

[SEdward]

The "Action Automobile" café in Paris no longer exists. However, I can recommend "Le Volant", which is a restaurant that is very much dedicated to racing.

And of course, there's the "Au Tertre Rouge" at the exit of the corner bearing the same name and, about a mile down the road, the "Restaurant des Hunaudières". Not easy to get to on race day, but worth a visit on the Friday between qualifying and the race.

Edward.

[bill moffat]

I hesitate before mentioning the word "Kentagon" but it serves beer and burnt sausages so I guess it qualifies.

How busy it will be at this weekend's 29 car FF festival is questionable...

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by bill moffat
How busy it will be at this weekend's 29 car FF festival is questionable...

No need for any heats, quarter-finals or semi-finals then?

[SEdward]

But the FF Festival used to attract hundreds of entries with heats, quarter finals, semi finals, and so on. What's happened?

Edward

[MCS]

Originally posted by SEdward
But the FF Festival used to attract hundreds of entries with heats, quarter finals, semi finals, and so on. What's happened?

Edward

Exactly what we were discusing in Woburn last night...not so much a Festival as a poor day's racing and a clear sign of the times, dare I say.

Mark

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by SEdward
But the FF Festival used to attract hundreds of entries with heats, quarter finals, semi finals, and so on. What's happened?

Edward

In no particular order :


Zetec

Formulae Vauxhall/Opel/Renault/BMW/Zip/First/Wartburg etc.

Escalating costs

Ford's indifference.

No (proper) TV

Plastic glasses in the Kentagon (joking).


It used to be my favourite meeting of the year, the tension leading up to the final was electric. I believe I've been pencilled in for a shopping trip to Lakeside with the wife this Sunday . I probably won't argue too much about it...

[Karen Hyland]

The pub in Longford is great. Has lots of 60's memorabilia, and there is a small (but very interesting) range of souvenirs available as well. When I was there 3 years ago I got a book about the history of the Longford circuit, and a video "Long Weekend at Longford" taken from a film originally made in 1964. IRRC some of the people featured in this video are Sir Jack, Graham Hill and Jim Clark.

In South Australia there have been a couple of Motor Racing inspired pubs. First of all in the late 1980's there was "The Circuit" which was on East Terrace, just down from Stag Corner. This was one of the very early sports bars, but underwent a change to a more generic sports bar after a couple of years. I think it is an Oyster Bar now.

Opened in Salisbury last year, there is now the "V8 Superbar" which is a V8 Supercar themed bar which has heaps of V8 memorabilia, sells a pretty good range of V8 team merchandise, and features a full sized Ford Falcon simulator.

Whilst not a "pub" as such, back in the 1980's there was also a restaurant in Tea Tree Gully called "Minardi Ristorante", and there was a lot of Minardi (and General F1) memorabilia in there whilst it was open. At one stage rumour had it that one of the restaurant's chefs used to work for Minardi but I do not know if there was any truth in it or not.

[RTH]

Originally posted by SEdward
But the FF Festival used to attract hundreds of entries with heats, quarter finals, semi finals, and so on. What's happened?

Edward

Competitors have progressively been priced out of racing, - the purchase price of the cars, the spares, the tyres the cost of taking part at all in anything the staggeringly high cost of entry fees - in the early 70's I remember paying just £7 a race , - now it's at least £180 up to £350 - at the recent Le Mans historic 24hrs the entry fee was £4500 per car.

Almost every year the MSA declares some of :- your helmet, overalls, seat belts. fire extinguisher, roll cage etc,etc, no longer comply with latest FIA numbers and if you want to go racing all or most of that lot has to be renewed i.e thousands of pounds ! Then there is perhaps £120 licence fee to the MSA, the trend to 2 or even 3 day meetings with all the hotel /food etc that brings .
£4 a gallon fuel to get you to & from the tracks, - really the wonder is there is any club racing at all these days.

You are absolutely right in it's day the FF festival started on a thursday with 500 entries which got whittled down to a final on Sunday and a champion - which really meaned something.

The vastly more costly to buy & run Zetec cars sounded the death nell.

It's circuit owners, organising clubs,MSA with no common sense and no regard at all for the competitor.

As with ALL motorsport the technical car rules and sporting rules need vast changes to slash costs - otherwise it will all go ........and soon.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Andrew Fellowes
The Green Man

Maybe I can make sense this time, it not being gone 1.30 am!

Back to 1987, when the F1 ciggie war was in full flow, all the top brass from Philip Morris (Marlboro) and their VIPs were housed in the Green Man for the duration of the British GP. This became known to the RJ Reynolds (Camel) personnel when they were trying to house their guests.

The Camel guys then discovered that although the Green Man's rooms were all taken by Marlboro guests, the pub wasn't actually branded 'Marlboro'.

So they quietly did a deal for the entire pub to be liveried in yellow & blue, and just in time for all the Marlboro VIPs arrival. Big banners, all the umbrellas, the bunting, all the ash trays. You name it, it was all branded 'Camel'...

Has anyone mentioned The Union Jack in Indianapolis? When I was there it was the place where a lot of the drivers met up for the evening after 'Carburation Day' - which was the Thursday, IIRC.

Another Monaco bar was/is the Cristal Bar (I think it was spelled with an i) next door to the Tip Top. Most of the revelry went on the road and pavement in front of the two bars anyway, and the beer was half the price of next door! And then there was Flashman's and the Britannia Club...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RTH

The vastly more costly to buy & run Zetec cars sounded the death nell.

It's circuit owners, organising clubs,MSA with no common sense and no regard at all for the competitor.

As with ALL motorsport the technical car rules and sporting rules need vast changes to slash costs - otherwise it will all go ........and soon.

FF Zetec isn't an "everyman" formula like FF Kent was. Nobody seems to like the handling of Zetecs, they're heavy and clearly not as nimble as Kents - and to be honest it's hard to see where - if anywhere - it fits into the racing scene these days. Kids who want to reach F1 in 5 years seem to be going the one-make route - BMW or the Renault ladder.

FF Kent used to be a little self-contained world in its own right (and at the clubbie level, still is). There would be a mix of drivers - guys who were climbing the career ladder, journeymen, local heroes, people doing it just for the sheer fun of racing, FFord addicts who stayed in the formula for years - and half the fun of an FFord race used to be seeing the battles between youth and experience, raw talent and local knowledge, new cars and highly-developed older ones. All that has gone now Zetec (and now slicks) have turned it into "just another formula" - an expensive one at that, albeit an unusual one as it's probably the only category without wings!

The Kent scene is alive and well and thriving at clubbie level. I saw a rumour recently that Ford were considering killing off Zetec and reverting to a new 1600cc FFord. I'd be all for that - especially if it was a FFord that was targeted as much at the sort of guys who are still racing Kents as the young hotshoes. I think the original FFord recipe - controlled chassis costs, skinny road tyres, limited engine mods - is still the greatest entry-level single seater formula there's ever been! (Vees were always a bit too eccentric for me!)

How much is a season in the British FFord championship these days? Looking at the scale and size of the teams, I 'd be surprised if a seat in a decent team cost less than £100k... That isn't racing for everyman - and that's not what FFord was originally meant to be about.