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Flyovers and Motorways


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 21:24

Commentators often refer to Suzuka's figure eight layout as though it is unique. Obviously, even today it isn't as one of the Aussie tracks boasts a similar feature.

However, following up on the 'Tower' business, I started looking at the circuits used for the German Formula Junior series in 1961. Surprisingly (to me) 2 of the circuits were built using bits of motorway and in one case, a flyover. Here are the two, courtesy of Daren Galpin's site...

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I know the Brussels Grand Prix circuit in the early 60s used a bit of motorway (and a flyover for one race) as did Monsanto Park, but how many other circuits were constructed using main motorways? (As opposed to just single lane public roads.)

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 21:40

The Lyon circuit used in 1947 for the GP de l'ACF incorporated part of an Autoroute, IIRC, as did the one used for the 1946 GP de St Cloud, including the tunnel section. And the post-war Nice GPs included a blast up and down the dual carriageway on the seafront.

I think some of the East German F2 races used sections of Autobahn too.

#3 Racer.Demon

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 21:45

I believe Brun was planning "Then and Now" track visits to those two very places above (Dresden-Hellerau and Bernau) or he might already have been there to take pictures... I'll check up on it.

And there were lots more of them - Halle-Saale, Dessau, Braunschweig, Karlsruhe, Bautzen, Karl-Marx-Stadt, Lübeck... I'm sure our German members will be able to tell you more.

#4 Frank S

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 22:11

There is a "flyover" left over from the Paramount Ranch road course.


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#5 Twin Window

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 22:26

I was hoping to cheer myself up by making a valid contribution to your thread, Barry, in suggesting Motegi.

But there's no motorway involved on the 'Twin Ring' is there... Bugger.

#6 Racer.Demon

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 22:38

How silly of me leaving out the AVUS! But then that was made into a motorway...

#7 FrankB

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 22:51

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
How silly of me leaving out the AVUS! But then that was made into a motorway...

but it didn't have a flyover / figure of eight configuration when it was in use as a race track.

#8 Muzza

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 06:11

Race tracks equipped with flyovers (with the race track crossing above itself) are rare but by no means Suzuka is unique (well, maybe it is to those that believe that Formula 1 is a synonym to racing... :rolleyes: ).

Besides the already mentioned cases, I recall (and this list is not to be taken as exhaustive) :

- Oran Park in Australia, as hinted by Barry Boor, operational;

- Häameenlinna in Finland, operational;

- a street track in Lucca, Italy, used in 1935-1938 (as per this page at Daniel King's Racing Circuit website);

- the 1962-1965 and the 1967-1970 layouts for the street track used for the 1000 km de Brasília touring car race held in the Brazilian capital also had flyovers. The 1962-1965 variant had actually two of them - and its start/finish line was on a bridge... above public roads!

Cheers,


Muzza

#9 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 10:38

San Juan in Argentina:

http://www.formula2.net/F268_20.htm

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#10 Racer.Demon

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 12:34

Originally posted by FrankB
but it didn't have a flyover / figure of eight configuration when it was in use as a race track.


Nor did some of the other German Autobahn tracks I mentioned, but I don't think that was precluded in Barry's question.;)

#11 petefenelon

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 12:48

What about Ahvenvisto/Hameelinna up in Finland?

http://homepage.ntlw.../ahvenisto.html

#12 Brun

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 16:00

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
I believe Brun was planning "Then and Now" track visits to those two very places above (Dresden-Hellerau and Bernau) or he might already have been there to take pictures... I'll check up on it.

And there were lots more of them - Halle-Saale, Dessau, Braunschweig, Karlsruhe, Bautzen, Karl-Marx-Stadt, Lübeck... I'm sure our German members will be able to tell you more.


Mattijs just pointed this thread out to me - interesting!

There were several such circuits in Germany, since it had lots of ready-built motorways after the war, which were just perfect for motor racing of course. Dresden-Hellerau is still largely in the same state today, with only the tarmac renewed and many miles of Armco added. I drove across it in July this year. Check any map - it's the junction right next to the airport.

Halle-Saale was a city street circuit, no motorways here.

Karl-Marx-Stadt (Chemnitz) is another and I've driven on this stretch myself countless times. Easily recognisable on the map, too: it's the junction of the A4 and A72. However, the motorways there are completely rebuilt and widened into three lanes. What's interesting on this circuit was that they made a hairpin by having the cars doing a 180-degree turn on one of the motorways.

The Dessau circuit is very interesting - part of it was on the motorway, part of it on the secondary two-lane road leading to the motorway. The cars drove under the fly-over, but not over it.

The AVUS doesn't count, though, since it was a racing track first and only later became part of the motorway.

As for pictures: none, I'm afraid... you can't just stop on a motorway and shoot some :lol: And of course they wouldn't be very interesting, I'm afraid. Just think of your everyday motorway view.

#13 Muzza

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 16:29

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
San Juan in Argentina:

http://www.formula2.net/F268_20.htm

Stefan



Stefan,

You are right, I forgot San Juan, popularly known as El Zonda. Besides the flyover - that looks like one quart of a motorway cloverleaf; I remember it from watching Formula 3 races on tv in the early 1990s - it has a tricky series of esses that have been the scene of some bad crashes. Very fast and rather dangerous track.

Incidentally, our friends in Argentina must love tracks with flyovers - I just remember of other two, both still operational: Balcarce and Mendoza.

Cheers,


Muzza

#14 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 17:27

Yes, as Muzza says, we love flyovers here, but while San Juan (called "Eduardo Coppelo") and Balcarce (called "Juan Manuel Fangio") tracks are pretty operational, Mendoza wasn't anymore. It was abandoned and poor people went to live in the pits and paddocks zone.

I remember too a non-permanent track used only one time in Entre Ríos province, circa 1982, on motorways using a flyover.

Rosario city held the first round of the 1967 Mecánica Argentina Fórmula 1 series in an Avus-shaped (but without the banked corner!), motorway track. You can see the lay-out in the Daniel King website.

In the '70s, the popular Turismo Carretera series abandoned the gravel circuits: from 1970, all the races were held on tarmac motorways, mixing it with permanent tracks in 1974; there was plenty, from those yeras, of these kind of circuits, some passing under flyovers too. The last motorway race was held in 1997.

#15 conjohn

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 19:15

Originally posted by Muzza
- Häameenlinna in Finland, operational;

As you are yourself a proponent of correct spelling, Muzza, I hope you won't take it amiss if I point out that the correct spelling is Hämeenlinna, without an 'a' as the third character... :wave:

If this comes over as in any way smart-alecky, I apologize in advance.... but, you know, 'in the interest of historical accuracy'...

#16 Wolf

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 19:54

Not exactly a 'flyover' (in motorway sense)- but didn't such configuration almost lead to most serious accident when poor Sarti's car (who was killed in the process) fell on the edge of part of the track passing under place of his accident (I believe a piece of exhaust pipe fell of the car directly in front of him)?

Yep, as I was saying Monza in 10km configuration did have similar feature (Ascari curve going under the banking)...

#17 Muzza

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 20:22

Originally posted by Pablo Vignone
Yes, as Muzza says, we love flyovers here, but while San Juan (called "Eduardo Coppelo") and Balcarce (called "Juan Manuel Fangio") tracks are pretty operational, Mendoza wasn't anymore. It was abandoned and poor people went to live in the pits and paddocks zone. [...]


Pablo,

I am sad about the demise of Mendoza... I remember seeing the track on tv, with its challenging sweeping turns. I hope it is a temporary situation, and that it somehow follows the example of Curitiba - that, after being abandoned for twenty years (it literally became a dump) is today one of the best-equipped tracks of Brazil.

If you would, please send a message to Dan letting him know that Mendoza is... dormant, hopefully.

Originally posted by conjohn

As you are yourself a proponent of correct spelling, Muzza, I hope you won't take it amiss if I point out that the correct spelling is Hämeenlinna, without an 'a' as the third character... :wave:

If this comes over as in any way smart-alecky, I apologize in advance.... but, you know, 'in the interest of historical accuracy'...


Conjohn,

Your correction was most welcome!

Best regards,


Muzza

#18 danielking

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 23:11

Thanks Pablo ;) , I'll update the status of Mendoza shortly.

The street circuit in Las Palmas which was used for the running of the '6 Horas Peruanas' 4 years ago featured a flyover, with the pitlane utilising the opposite sliproad!

Also in Peru, the road course at Las Cumbres crosses over itself.

Anyone mentioned Fiorano yet?

#19 EdwRom

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 04:02

Holly resurrection, Batman! I'm trying to add a Peru folder to fellow forumer's Mark A motorsports.kmz file for Google Earth. I have found a few of them but I need more information on the location of the rest. As Muzza pointed out Daniel King's Motor Racing Circuits Database has a list of Peruvian race tracks. I have also found some information at Guido de Carli's site and Darren Galpin's site. So far, I have found Campo de Marte, Chorrillos (Aguadulce), Santa Rosa (not visible due to clouds + it is in a low res area) and Tacna. I also found the Paseo de los Héroes Navales course, which was used in 2005 only (I think). Huacarpay is/was probably close to the Huacarpay lagoon in Cuzco. I have no idea where Las Cumbres is/was. It looks like a permanent road course. Las Palmas may be around the Las Palmas Air Force Base which is close to the Chorrillos course. There is a section of the Panamericana Sur where it joins the old Panamericana that looks pretty similar to the tracing on Daniel King's site but it is not quiet right.

I emailed the Automóvil Club Peruano but have heard nothing from them yet. Can anybody help me with these circuits?

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#20 lil'chris

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 00:48

Slipping away from Peru for a minute ( sorry EdwRom ) , wasn't the original Most circuit composed of motorway involving a flyover ?

#21 EdwRom

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 01:22

No problem, lil'chris. I don't know if Most was made up of motorways but it did have a flyover.

#22 Rob Miller

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 01:57

The 1957 Venezuelan GP circuit in Caracas for the World Sportscar Championship race, according to Michael T. Lynch.

"The course, which ran the length of a freeway, with hairpin overpass turns at either end, was modified after the teams threatened to withdraw."