81 replies to this topic

[LB]

Over on the other forum BRG and myself had a brief discussion on the origins of British Racing Green. A few proposals were put forward I was always under the impression it was actually Panhard that gave green as a colour to Charles Jarrott as it was a lucky colour in France. This was to make up for him getting unlucky 13 in a race ( Paris-Lyon 1900?). BRG says that it was the house colour of Napier and therefore British Racing Green occured as the Napiers were entered in the Gordon Bennett races in 1902. I then looked up a couple of books and yet another thoery arises that Napier had the colour green as a tribute to Ireland that was part of the UK at the time.

Does anyone know the correct story of the origins of Green as a national colour of a country with a Red, White and Blue flag? (As a bit of a side note, why was Germany white?)

[BRG]

Oh bu**er, now I am really going to have to turn my house upside down to fuind that Napier Power Heritage Trust leaflet about the origins of BRG!

[Garagiste]

Unless the leaflet says more than this page: http://www.cpmac.com...dex.php3?page=8
there's no need! I'd been Googling with no joy at all until I tried Napier Power Heritage as a search.

Previous musings in here:
http://forums.atlasf...olours national
and here:
http://forums.atlasf...olours national

[LB]

Thing is I still don't buy the Napier story, for a start the Napier logo was dark blue not green. The story about the lucky french green actually predates Napier in Gordon Bennett by 2 years. The first Gordon Bennett race was run over the Paris-Lyon course however I believe Britain didn't have an entry so where was the race that this actually happened? At least from the links I found out where I got the story in the first place ( feel free to merge, but i still believe this is a pertinant question on its own).

The tribute to Ireland would of course be in 1903.

[LB]

Just found this - http://members.fortu...1925/1901fd.htm - check the car in 10th place Charles Jarrott in a Panhard #13 so the story has a base in 1901.

[Eric McLoughlin]

The Irish always promote the "Irish" reason for BRG. It was even given as the correct answer on the Irish equivalent of "Mastermind" (no smart ass comments please) many years ago.

I've always felt that the "Tribute to Ireland" reason never rang true.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by LB
Just found this - http://members.fortu...1925/1901fd.htm - check the car in 10th place Charles Jarrott in a Panhard #13 so the story has a base in 1901.

"About a week before the [Paris-Berlin] event I went over to Paris to obtain the car and prepare for the race. On entering the works, one of the first persons I met was M. Clément, and he very kindly conducted me to the shop which contained my car. It would be difficult to express my feeling of pride as I gazed upon the monster which I was to conduct in the first really great race of my life. I noticed particularly that the car was painted green - a rich, dark colour, which gave the car such a handsome appearance that I wondered why everybody else had not painted their cars green also. But M. Clément gave me a reason for this. He explained that my number in the race was 13, and the reason it had been allotted to me was because no one else would have it. But they had been struck with the happy idea of painting the car green (the French lucky colour) with the object of nullifying the bad effect of the unlucky number. However, it mattered not to me ....."

Ten Years of Motors and Motor Racing by Charles Jarrott pp103-4

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin

I've always felt that the "Tribute to Ireland" reason never rang true.

Well, I really don't know for sure, but history would tend to suggest that you're correct.

As my best friend once said to a sponsor's guest in Cleveland, when she asked us how long we'd been buddies "it's not that that counts - it's the fact that, really, we should be enemies..."

[Graham Gauld]

The research I have done and am publishing in my book shows the following.

In 1903 Britain and the RAC held their first International race. It was in Ireland, the Gordon Bennett Cup race. In honour of this the RAC nominated green as the British racing colour. I have no reason to think otherwise.

[Vitesse2]

To mix metaphors a bit, I've always felt that the connection between the Paris-Berlin story as related by Jarrott and the adoption of green in 1903 was probably a red herring and a later invention by a subsequent writer. In the quote posted by Roger Clark in one of the older threads, Lord Montagu says that it was at the suggestion of Count Zborowski:

http://forums.atlasf...5335#post175335

Can anyone run this claim down to its source?

Significantly perhaps, writing in 1906 Jarrott makes no mention of the colour of the cars at Athy. Had there been any connection, or had the story been current at that time, surely he would have mentioned it?

[RTH]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


"................ But M. Clément gave me a reason for this. He explained that my number in the race was 13, and the reason it had been allotted to me was because no one else would have it. But they had been struck with the happy idea of painting the car green (the French lucky colour) with the object of nullifying the bad effect of the unlucky number. However, it mattered not to me ....."

Ten Years of Motors and Motor Racing by Charles Jarrott pp103-4

This is the story I always believed, I thought it had a ring of truth to it !

British Racing green has it's own British Standard it is ' BS 381 C ' and is described as ' Deep Brunswick Green ' , Napier Green, or British Racing Green '

However there are a multitude of shades so described.
I have always regarded the green on the 'C' & 'D' type Jaguars - the very dark muddy green shade (on the Ralt below) as the real thing - interestingly currently you can specify a new Audi TT in almost exactly this shade.

The Ensign is "Brooklands Green" a colour found on a new Marina or Princess in the Mid 70's and the 69 is Brunswick Green.

So what is the real "British Racing Green " !

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by RTH
British Racing green has it's own British Standard it is ' BS 381 C ' and is described as ' Deep Brunswick Green ' , Napier Green, or British Racing Green '

..... The exact words uttered by Neville Hay on the commentary of the video "Racing Green" (Duke, 1993).

While that Standard "defines" a Deep Brunswick Green, it also defines several hundred other colours so to suggest it is BRG's own standard is somewhat fanciful!

http://www.stephen.h....co.uk/381.html

[Mike Lawrence]

I don't believe any of the stories about the origin of Green as Britain's national colour. The Gordon Bennett races were for national teams and colours were allocated on a random basis.

While there is a colour marketed as British Racing Green, any shade of green will do. You only have to look at works Jaguars and Aston Martins of the 1950s, and the British Racing Partnership had a very light shade.

Why did so many Scotch teams run in blue and white? That's Austria's national livery. Scotland is part of Britain so its national livery is green. I know that the Cross of St. Andrew is blue and white, but that is no excuse.

Germany's national colour is white, not silver. Somehow 'white arrows' does not have the same ring.

[wdm]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
Scotch teams run in blue and white

I think Scottish teams run in blue and white... Scotch is an entirely separate colour (or range of colours)

How much did the concept of "national colour" have meaning under Grand Prix rules, anyway? It makes sense for the Gordon Bennett races (country v. country)... but for GPs?

For instance, when "Williams" won at Monaco in 1929 in his green Bugatti, he appropriated the colours to represent the driver's, not the car's, nationality. (This is the first instance that I'm aware of, but I'm certain that others will know of much earlier instances )

Willie

[ensign14]

The latter is a particularly interesting point, as was Zborowski's Miller not white and blue as per the US racing colours rather than green? He was, I believe, the first private entrant in GP racing.

[Twin Window]

Brunswick Green was a colour - or range of shades - used on the railways, firstly by Isambard Kingdom Brunel's Great Western Railway and then adopted by the nationalised British Railways.

[Vitesse2]

"Williams" raced in green because he was (in that case) the entrant. On other occasions, when he raced as a works Bugatti driver, he would have driven a blue car entered by Usines Bugatti. The key is the nationality not of the car, nor the driver, but of the entrant.

The best illustration of this is Caracciola's spell with Alfa Romeo in 1932. His works-supported car was white in early season races, but after Monaco he was invited to join the team as a full member. After that, entered by Alfa Corse, his car was red (except at Lwow, a race for which Alfa had not entered but Rudi had).

However, even in the 30s national colour rules were purely at the whim of the organisers: sometimes Earl Howe was required to paint his cars green when racing on the continent, while on other occasions he raced in his preferred blue. And that doesn't touch on Scuderia CC and other multi-national teams .....

[Wolf]

Mike, an interesting point... But, I think FIA, in a way, as well as FIFA/UEFA recognize parts of UK of GB and NI (look at rally cars- McRae had Scottish and Grist Welsh flag on windows of their car) as 'countries'. It may be a bit of confusing, but for example I've heard that people from Six Counties have their nationality as 'British' in their passports, even though they are certainly not British. We may have had the conversation about it on TNF already, since I remember also raising the question of 'personal union' of Scotland and England. I must also admit to being partial to seeing Rob Walker's cars (they look great in Scottish colours and I'm a big Moss fan).

[LB]

Dario Franchitti races under the scottish Flag in the US too. I think the English drivers ( Wheldon, Manning, Taylor, Wilson) get the English flag. We are a tad confusing. For what its worth I think I would be right in saying that most Scots regard Scotland as a country and Scottish as a nationality despite the fact that many say its not. It doesn't matter that it may be technically correct to say its not a nation, you aren't going to convince many (if any) scots.

[Wolf]

LB- why would Scots not be a nation?!? In terms of GB, I wouldn't think Scots any less a nation than English or Welsh, nor would Scotland be a country any less than England and Wales. Now Britain and British seems to be something that comprises all and then gets bundled together with Northern Ireland (and I presume, some exceptions, like Isle of Man and Channel Islands get thrown in for a good measure, or are they really a part of GB?) to make UK. Not at all confusing...

[ensign14]

Britain in itself is a meaningless term that gets applied to almost anything.

The British Isles is a geographical term that includes the Irish Republic, the Isle of Man &c.

Great Britain is a geographical term describing the biggest of the British Isles.

Ireland is, strictly speaking, a geographical term describing the 2nd biggest of the British Isles, but is also used habitually as shorthand for the Republic of Ireland/Irish Republic/Eire.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the official (and inaccurate) country name for England, Scotland, Wales and NI combined.

British is an adjective used as a national identifier for subjects of the United Kingdom.

The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are not part of the UK, they are dependencies and are ruled separately by Her Majesty in different capacities (she rules over the Channel Isles as Duke of Normandy for example). But they are not sovereign territories as they have to defer to the UK in matters of foreign policy - as indeed to Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by ensign14
Great Britain is a geographical term describing the biggest of the British Isles.

More correctly, the political term describing the former independent kingdoms of England, Wales and Scotland

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the official (and inaccurate) country name for England, Scotland, Wales and NI combined.

How is it inaccurate?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by David McKinney

More correctly, the political term describing the former independent kingdoms of England, Wales and Scotland

No - the Isle of Wight and Anglesey are not part of Great Britain, but are parts of England and Wales. It may be that there is a back-formation for convenience's sake from the fact that it is "the United Kingdom of GB" to refer conveniently to England, Scotland and Wales together but it is strictly speaking inaccurate.

Originally posted by David McKinney
How is it inaccurate?

For the above reason. Someone from Cowes or the Isles of Scilly is from the UK, but the description of the Kingdom does not include them.

[LB]

Here we go again. Wolf, I was deliberately trying not to be contraversial. Its well known what my opinion on Scottish nationality is. see avatar if theres any doubt.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by ensign14
.....(she rules over the Channel Isles as Duke of Normandy for example).....

'Duchess' surely?

Originally posted by LB
....Wolf, I was deliberately trying not to be contraversial.....

Looks to me (if you read carefully...) like you changed your mind about being controversial.



.....Please don't read that the wrong way.....

[KJJ]

Well ensign14 is right when he says that Great Britain is a geographical term for the largest of the British Isles. But David McKinney is also right when he says that as a political term it refers to the kingdoms of England and Scotland.

When James VI of Scotland became James I of England he adopted the style 'King of Great Britain' much to the disgust of his English subjects, before this time the word British being usually reserved for the Welsh.

I guess the term Northern Ireland is inaccurate, after all Ireland's most northerly county Donegal is in Southern Ireland

[LB]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


'Duchess' surely?



Looks to me (if you read carefully...) like you changed your mind about being controversial.



.....Please don't read that the wrong way.....

nope thats me being non contraversial and actually acknowledging the other side of the 'debate' . I am a scottish nationalist after all.

[Twin Window]

Before this debate evolves into a fully-fledged bun fight, I just thought I'd ask whether any of this is really directly relevant to the origins of British Racing Green?

Just a thought...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Before this debate evolves into a fully-fledged bun fight, I just thought I'd ask whether any of this is really directly relevant to the origins of British Racing Green?

Just a thought...

I wondered when someone was going to ask that ....

So, ignoring Paris-Berlin, we have a possible first sighting of a form of BRG (the cars were actually an emerald green) in the 1903 Gordon Bennett. What colour were they in 1904 and 1905?

There were no British cars in the first two Grands Prix. What about the Austins and Weigels in 1908? The Daimlers and Napiers in the 1907 Kaiserpreis?

[Mike Lawrence]

Such distinguished Scotchmen as Rabbie Burns, James Boswell, Sir Walter Scott and R.L. Stevenson all used 'Scotch' and 'Scotman'.

'Scots' and 'Scottish' are also correct.

Scotland's racing livery is green.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


'Duchess' surely?

Oddly, no...the Channel Islands toast if "to the Duke of Normandy, our Queen".

Well, sort of back on origin of racing green, what is the origin of the Arrol-Johnstons' colour in the Grand Prix in (I think) 1908? The navy blue tartan? That at least gives some precedent for 'Scottish racing blue'.

[dbw]

i recall several threads on "national racing colors"....while brg seems to defy a specific shade, french blue ind italian red are similarly all over the map [bugatti seemed to paint the factory cars whatever was at hand..ranging from a delicate robin's egg hue to a nearly ultramarine...and don't get the alfa guys started..

as far as the origins of brg all one has to do is watch the weather forcast on the telly and the entire land mass is colored green for light to medium rain..[at least when i'm there] :

how 'bout robin hood? wasn't green involved somehow in his attire? [or was that peter pan...it's getting late]

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence


Scotland's racing livery is green.

Actually WAS green as official colours no longer exist,were deleted from FIA year book some years ago.

[RTH]

..........Anyone know the paint code for Tartan ?

[Wolf]

Interesting thing about Scots, on which Mike might be able to shed some light, is how on earth did they get away with it... I can understand the German switch to silver happened when they were a major force (two very strong factory teams)- but Scottish teams were mostly privateers and small teams (not meant to be derogatory). How come English/British did not protest, or authorities never noticed 'illegaly painted' cars?

[ensign14]

They just said it was dark green.

I don't think most people cared about illegally painted cars. After all, in the South African GPs, how many were painted in South African colours?

However the Rob Walker biography talks about how a German official demanded that the Walker Cooper be repainted green, and would not accept the excuse of "Scottish Racing Blue" - so Walker calmly suggested he would protest the Porsches for not being white and the matter was quietly forgotten.

[KJJ]

Of course the break up of the colour spectrum is a purely subjective division anyway. Some languages and cultures don't differentiate between blue and green, so i guess you could argue that Scottish racing blue is just another shade of green.

[Rob29]

Colours were never enforced by the FIA.It was optional for organizers,otherwise a grid full of green cars would have been rather boring. I think there once was a grid full of red cars at an ArgentineGP!
Only case of Apendix 'I' being enforced I recall was at LeMans where someone turned up with a shiny silver polished aluminium Lotus and the scrutes told him to paint it green.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by KJJ
Of course the break up of the colour spectrum is a purely subjective division anyway. Some languages and cultures don't differentiate between blue and green, so i guess you could argue that Scottish racing blue is just another shade of green.

I only brought that argument up to deal with the Indy Cooper ;)

[D-Type]

Originally posted by RTH
..........Anyone know the paint code for Tartan ?

When I was about 13 I asked a hardware shop for tartan paint - they searched everywhere but couldn't find any. So I have to reluctantly conclude that if it didn't exist then, it can't exist now.

[KJJ]

Pete

I hadn't been following that Cooper Indy thread and had missed the duplication, though I must admit that your own post was far more erudite than my own! But enough of this or Twinny will be forced to drag us back on topic again

[Macca]

No tartan paint - not of any clan?



How am I going to paint my 1/43 JYS helmet?

(answer: with great difficulty and a fine brush)


Paul M

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by D-Type

When I was about 13 I asked a hardware shop for tartan paint - they searched everywhere but couldn't find any. So I have to reluctantly conclude that if it didn't exist then, it can't exist now.

Shouldn't have been a problem
Most hardware stores keep it next to the sticks of paraffin and buckets of sparks

[Vitesse2]

" ... there you go, four candles."
"Nah .... fork 'andles .... 'andles for forks ...."

Anyway, back to BRG (again ) ....

[Vitesse2]

All the following quotes refer to 1904:

"Alexandre Darracq['s]... ambition was to see his new Ribeyrolles-designed cars wear, not only the blue of France, but the green of Great Britain and the white of Germany as well."

Lord Montagu: Gordon Bennett Races, p90

".... the black-and-yellow of Austria ...."

op cit p98

".... the Italian cars ..... were painted black: red was, of course, the official racing colour of the United States .... the Swiss national colours of red and yellow ....

op cit p99

".... the privilege of wearing the yellow [of Belgium] ...."

op cit p100

"... 'this huge green scarab' .... [the Autocar's description of the Wolseley 'Beetle']

op cit p110

[LB]

Originally posted by KJJ
Of course the break up of the colour spectrum is a purely subjective division anyway. Some languages and cultures don't differentiate between blue and green, so i guess you could argue that Scottish racing blue is just another shade of green.

Or green is just another shade of Scottish Racing Blue since Blue is primary ;)

[Vicuna]

Isn't the theory about Britain adopting green in favour of Ireland in 1903 blown apart on account of Edge's Napier being green in 1902?

[Vitesse2]

That's the connection which is often made. However, quoting Montagu again (p45), on the 1902 Napier:

The car was painted green - Mr Henry Knox remembers it as an olive shade, and it is possible that the colour was selected at the instigation of Charles Jarrott .... [but] .... Even in 1902, however, green as a colour was becoming associated with Napier touring cars.

The implication seems to be that there is no evidence other than coincidence to connect the colour of Jarrott's Panhard, Edge's Napier and the 1903 Gordon Bennett team, especially as the shade of green was not consistent: "rich, dark" in 1901, "olive" in 1902 and "emerald" in 1903.

What colour was Austin's Wolseley in the 1902 Gordon Bennett?

[D-Type]

I find the chronology confusing

1900
First Gordon Bennet race, but with no British entries

1901
29th May - Gordon Bennet race
This had the first Napier entries. What colour were they?
Were there any Wolesleys entered this year?
27th-29th June - Paris-Berlin race with Charles Jarrot in the green Panhard #13

1902
SF Edge wins the Gordon Bennet race in a Napier. What colour was it?
Wolseleys in the race were painted green

1903
The Napier entry in the Gordon Bennet race in Ireland were definitely green

Which leaves a few questions
1. When did the Gordon Bennet organisers specify national colours (USA-red, France-blue, Germany-white, etc)?
2. Did they assign colours only to countries that entered or to those that might?
3. Could the Jarrot car possibly have been painted green because it was a British entry and that he was simply told it was for luck?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by D-Type
I find the chronology confusing

1900
First Gordon Bennet race, but with no British entries

Correct.

Originally posted by D-Type
1901
29th May - Gordon Bennet race
This had the first Napier entries. What colour were they?

No idea.

Originally posted by D-Type
Were there any Wolesleys entered this year?

A car was apparently built, but doesn't seem to have been a serious attempt. MMC also built a car for Henry Farman, but it was withdrawn at a late stage before the race.

Originally posted by D-Type
27th-29th June - Paris-Berlin race with Charles Jarrot in the green Panhard #13

Correct.

Originally posted by D-Type
1902
SF Edge wins the Gordon Bennet race in a Napier. What colour was it?

Olive green.

Originally posted by D-Type
Wolseleys in the race were painted green

Evidence?

Originally posted by D-Type
1903
The Napier entry in the Gordon Bennet race in Ireland were definitely green

Correct.