42 replies to this topic

[ivanalesi]

Any ideas, I just read that Catalunya probably next year will be gravel rally in order to fight to be the final round of the championship...
Tarmac rallies are great fun for spectators and almost all European rallies are on tarmac...

[eoin]

Originally posted by ivanalesi
Any ideas, I just read that Catalunya probably next year will be gravel rally in order to fight to be the final round of the championship...
Tarmac rallies are great fun for spectators and almost all European rallies are on tarmac...

Silly question:

Why aren't all rallies on tarmac? How many people take their brand new 307/Impreza/Evo down dirt tracks with rocks lining the road?

[santori]

Some people seem to think that because F1 is on circuits, the WRC should be on gravel and you hear things about gravel 'being more in the spirit of rallying'. Of course, this is nonsense - take a look at the early rallies. Tarmac, tarmac, tarmac.

I don't think rallies should be on tarmac because of the use of average 307's etc. (which bear little resemblance to the WRC cars, really) but because tarmac ralllies are spectacular. Not that gravel-rallies aren't (though there are too many slow gravel rallies), rather that there should be a balance.

[AndersF1]

Originally posted by santori
Some people seem to think that because F1 is on circuits, the WRC should be on gravel and you hear things about gravel 'being more in the spirit of rallying'. Of course, this is nonsense - take a look at the early rallies. Tarmac, tarmac, tarmac.

I don't think rallies should be on tarmac because of the use of average 307's etc. (which bear little resemblance to the WRC cars, really) but because tarmac ralllies are spectacular. Not that gravel-rallies aren't (though there are too many slow gravel rallies), rather that there should be a balance.

Do you mean that all early rallies were on tarmac? From when?

My two favorite rallies, Finland and Sweden are not on tarmac, but I think the current mix is OK. Maybe take away one of the very slow gravel rallies, which is a little bit boring, and add another snow rally.

[Spunout]

Gravel rallies less spectacular??? Anyone of you been in Ouninpohja?

[Moanaman]

... or Raglan in New Zealand

[Spunout]

Review of Rally Finland 2003

[Cociani]

I like a mixture of both as they are different disiplines from each other and offer a great challenge to the Drivers teams and manufacturers. I would rather see the 2.0 L naturaly aspirated formula come in to slow the cars then just turning ralley into an off-road series.

[random]

Because tarmac rallies are BORING. I say Good Riddance.

I like WRC, but I don't even bother to watch the Tarmac rallies, well unless they're running on a wet surface.

The cars just don't get loose on tarmac rallies. They travel the roads as if the were on a race track. That's not rally, that's touring car without any passing. And touring car without any passing is as boring as watching single car qualifying.

Rally cars never got as loose on tarmac as they did on loose surfaces. But these days they don't get loose at all, in fact, they stick like glue. The reason is that they run massive amounts traction control along with up to 5 electronic differentials. These diffs can split almost all the power front to rear and side to side, they can sense the traction on each wheel and split the power many times a second.

A lot of people in WRC have been trying to get rid of the tarmac rallies for years. This is the first solid move in that direction. And of all the crazy changes the FIA has proposed for WRC, this is the most sound of the bunch.

[Dudley]

Raqllying should be a multi-disipline sport.

There should be tarmac, gravel, dirt and snow. Removing any one of them cheapens the challenge. It's the same as the near removals of ovals from CART. I don't like ovals much but 4 or 5 of them were an integral part of the challenge of the series.

[RTH]

Be a lot more fun to watch if they took away the front driveshafts and ran them on mud and snow with no studs. The power slides, the astonishing car control with cars making forward progress at 45 deg this is what got 3 million spectators out in the winter to watch the RAC round britain rally in forests throuought the length and breadth of the country over the 5 days (and nights) the event took . At its best with rear wheel drive cars and just 200 BHP

[lanius]

Originally posted by random
Because tarmac rallies are BORING. I say Good Riddance.

I like WRC, but I don't even bother to watch the Tarmac rallies, well unless they're running on a wet surface.

The cars just don't get loose on tarmac rallies. They travel the roads as if the were on a race track. That's not rally, that's touring car without any passing. And touring car without any passing is as boring as watching single car qualifying.

Rally cars never got as loose on tarmac as they did on loose surfaces. But these days they don't get loose at all, in fact, they stick like glue. The reason is that they run massive amounts traction control along with up to 5 electronic differentials. These diffs can split almost all the power front to rear and side to side, they can sense the traction on each wheel and split the power many times a second.

A lot of people in WRC have been trying to get rid of the tarmac rallies for years. This is the first solid move in that direction. And of all the crazy changes the FIA has proposed for WRC, this is the most sound of the bunch.

Agree completely, tarmac rallies are amazingly boring. Can't wait to get rid of them.

Spunout:

That clip is awesome, WRC drivers are goddamn MAD!

[Ray Bell]

The continued use of tarmac, of course, increases the risk of a really high speed accident taking out dozens if not hundreds of spectators...

To delay that event is worthwhile, because motor racing in its entirety might not survive the kind of death toll such an event could inflict.

[Spunout]

"Rally cars never got as loose on tarmac as they did on loose surfaces. But these days they don't get loose at all, in fact, they stick like glue. The reason is that they run massive amounts traction control along with up to 5 electronic differentials. These diffs can split almost all the power front to rear and side to side, they can sense the traction on each wheel and split the power many times a second."

The main reason is with current cars going sideways isn´t as effective as it used to be.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Rallying is supposed to be an all-around event, with a mix of snow, asphalt, gravel and rocky surfaces. In the last few years we are witnessing a castration of the sport, with the rallies becoming less attractive and adventurus than before and the cars becoming less spectacular with all this technology.

I wonder where is this going to end...

[indigoid]

Originally posted by eoin
Why aren't all rallies on tarmac? How many people take their brand new 307/Impreza/Evo down dirt tracks with rocks lining the road?

Why? My uncle drove his shiny new 2004 WRX 5000km on dirt roads, and when he got to his final destination, the factory alloy wheels were damaged beyond repair. Bent and way out of balance. This was just on mostly rough gravel roads, too, not many rocks. He's since replaced them with steel wheels (at very low cost!), and had no more such problems. Modern cars look very strange with old-fashioned steelies though

The (magnesium?) alloy wheels used by WRC cars must be incredibly tough to survive all that abuse

[alan_owens]

I've had my WRX out on race tracks, in the wet and dry, down mixed surface roads, gravel roads, snow, ice, etc and I've never had a problem with it. But I'm not saying your uncle abused his car.

Hellenic tifosi has it right. Rally is an all-around event. When conditions change (like Monte Carlo) or surfaces change (Ahh the old RAC) it makes it the most interesting to watch. Hot dusty slow Club-Med rallies are too many these days. The tarmac events aren't as spectacular as they used to be. It needs tweaking, but the FIA always seem to tweak in exactly the wrong direction. :

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by alan_owens
.....But I'm not saying your uncle abused his car.....

Of course not... but maybe he didn't realise he had to increase the tyre pressures... or maybe he had ultra-low profile tyres.

A good rap across the Brindabella road should do a WRX good... but you have to watch for oncoming traffic up the top... you know, where the trees are bare for all eternity now.

[ivanalesi]

hmm this is strange, probably because most ppl here are british and most of your rallies are mud mud and eeeh mud... anyway, but i dont agree with this touring car thing... touring cars never cut corners this way and never fly through such tight turns in damn speed or ever do such spectacular hairpin slides, it is true that modern WRC are pretty stable and you should not make them oversteer but this is the same for all surfaces, all in all you guys like jumps plus it is much more dangerous standing by the road in Australia while someone is taking flat left right left turns at 180 kph than standing behind a guard rail or whatever, and i'm not sure that more ppl are killed on tarmac rallies than gravel...
All the west/central/east european championships are mainly gravel, as far as i know there are some portuguese and italian gravel rallies and everything else is tarmac
On top of it, while you watch now Markko charging between the walls is more exciting than watchning how he's flying with 200 or taking the slow tight turns in Cyprus or Turkey:)

[Ray Bell]

It's not an issue of how many are killed...

It's a matter of how many will be killed when the inevitable happens. Higher speeds on tarmac mean the errant car is likely to plough through more spectators and kill more.

[wagner]

Originally posted by eoin
Silly question:

Why aren't all rallies on tarmac?

Well for example because of this: rallying doesn't belong in the middle of city. It's too dangerous and it's not a one car street race. Rallying doesn't belong into highways, it's too easy. Rally route belongs into small challening roads of which many happens to be on gravel around the world. In some more densily populated countries maybe on tarmac.

How many people take their brand new 307/Impreza/Evo down dirt tracks with rocks lining the road?

You are not supposed to do rallying with ordinary road cars in city or in highway. If you want to practise rallying with your Impreza you head into some small closed roads.

That's just my explanation. And that's also why all conditions are required to make it a world rally championship

[ivanalesi]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It's not an issue of how many are killed...

It's a matter of how many will be killed when the inevitable happens. Higher speeds on tarmac mean the errant car is likely to plough through more spectators and kill more.

Tarmac rallies are no faster than the average gravel ones, if it was for danger, Finland should get removed, just one mistake on the jumps and you are rolling in a forest full of ppl:)

[Darren]

Originally posted by ivanalesi

Tarmac rallies are no faster than the average gravel ones

Tell me what sort of setup you're running that lets you get tarmac-level corner speeds on gravel... Better yet, tell Skoda, they could use the advice.

[Globber2000]

The point is, that tarmac rallies are on much twistier roads, especially corsica and the old san remo, than the gravel in Finland or New Zealand or such. Corsica is in fact one of the slowest rallies in the championship, whilst Sweden, which is run on solid ice is the fastest!

[black magic]

I think its marvelous that fia trying its best to wreck f1 is now seeing how it can screw up wrc, a very popular series.

hoorah. lets hear it for max. max for president of the world!

really is a shame we can't promote max to the level of his incompetance.

[xype]

Originally posted by black magic
I think its marvelous that fia trying its best to wreck f1 is now seeing how it can screw up wrc, a very popular series.

hoorah. lets hear it for max. max for president of the world!

really is a shame we can't promote max to the level of his incompetance.

Is it really Max who decides all those things or are there FIA working groups and he's just the one to sign the papers? I never really knew how the FIA works in such cases...

[ivanalesi]

In the WRC case, it is Shektar Mehta, the multiple Safari winner... Sometimes he has some strange decision about rallies, but he's no close to Bernie's "expertise"

[BRG]

There is far too much homogenisation going on in the WRC. Increasingly, all the rallies look the same. Greece, Turky, Cyprus and now Italy (Sardinia) are virtually interchangeable. The new Japan rally could have been run in Wales for all the distinctive local colour that was visible.

Why should rallies be tarmac or gravel only? Why should individual stages be one of the other? Why not mixed surfaces - that was the way that rallies were once. Events like the Liege-Sofia-Liege Rally or the Tulip Rally used plenty of unsurfaced sections in the Alps. Now they have to build a new bit of graavel road on the Wales Rally GB to bypass a short section of tarmac, because superstar Gronholm (and some others) couldn't cope with it and crashed. Pathetic

[pacwest]

From an in car view, the German Rally looks rather "junior". I don't care much for the German Rally. Looks like an autocross at the local abandoned airport.

Catalunya. Gilles Panizzi, Donut in front of 100,000 fans while waving. He was in the lead that much. Everyone thought he was cool after that. If Schumacher did that (and sometime he could) he'd be beaten alive in the streets.

If you never saw "the donut" the certainly cannot justify any comments you make in this thread..barring family emergeny or being stuck in the Arctic of something.

Tarmac rallies need to stay.





http://rallyalbum.hu/video/wrc2002.wmv

3:14 seconds in.

[BRG]

Good post, pacwest. This is one othe most memorable moments of recetn WRC history and was on TARMAC!

Personally, I would drop one of Turkey or Cyprus and bring in the Ieper Westhoek Rally from Belgium (tarmac, but usually wet, being in Flanders) and send the Italian round back to the mainland to Tuscany where they used to run some excellent gravel stages on the San Remo Rally if they really can't find good enough tarmac stages in northern Italy (which I find surprising!).

Keep Catalunya on tarmac too. And add some runs across the Eppynt tarmac roads to the Wales Rally GB - they are already using the military ranges there, but only the gravel bits.

ANd then drop the unloved Rally Deutschland and replace with a proper tarmac rally in Ireland - a few runs over the Ring of Kerry or Moll's Gap should soon sort out the WRC boyos!

And increase all rounds to a minimum of 500kms of stages, with at least 33% run after dark.

[sennadog93]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It's not an issue of how many are killed...

It's a matter of how many will be killed when the inevitable happens. Higher speeds on tarmac mean the errant car is likely to plough through more spectators and kill more.

Rubbish. The surface is irrelevant to speed and the potential for accidents. It could just as easily happen on Rally Australia as it could in Catalunya.

[alan_owens]

Gilles Panizzi scared his brother Hervi silly doing that donut. He had no idea Gilles was going to do it.

Rallies shouldn't be labeled as gravel or asphalt, they should just be rallies. The old RAC had stages of all types. It was one of the things that made it great. The old San Remo was another one that demanded that the drivers setup the cars and drive them over different road conditions.

BRG, I like your take on it and I love your suggestion of a WRC round in Ireland. As a kid I went to more than a few Circuit of Ireland rallies.

Speed of cars too high? Nah, people should just learn to stand in safe places or face Darwinism in action.;) Longer stages, more stages, fewer opportunities to change tyres. That'll slow 'em down a bit!

[ivanalesi]

Originally posted by BRG
Good post, pacwest. This is one othe most memorable moments of recetn WRC history and was on TARMAC!

Personally, I would drop one of Turkey or Cyprus and bring in the Ieper Westhoek Rally from Belgium (tarmac, but usually wet, being in Flanders) and send the Italian round back to the mainland to Tuscany where they used to run some excellent gravel stages on the San Remo Rally if they really can't find good enough tarmac stages in northern Italy (which I find surprising!).

Keep Catalunya on tarmac too. And add some runs across the Eppynt tarmac roads to the Wales Rally GB - they are already using the military ranges there, but only the gravel bits.

ANd then drop the unloved Rally Deutschland and replace with a proper tarmac rally in Ireland - a few runs over the Ring of Kerry or Moll's Gap should soon sort out the WRC boyos!

And increase all rounds to a minimum of 500kms of stages, with at least 33% run after dark.

You have a HUGE true point on this, I think that this kind of gravel/tarmac stages or rallies are run in the US, this will be really cool to see someone with gravel tyres barely keeping the car on tarmac or the opposite. The suggestion to Ireland is great too with their narrow roads, btw, there is a great hi in the mountains always wet rally in Portugal, i think it was Madeira, they start on some sea point and go hi in the mountains, start with sunshine and finish with fog and rain! This will be cool!

[ViMaMo]

Driving on tarmac requires a different skill. Try driving a section in Colin Mcrae Rally, it requires incredible precision.

Tarmac rallies should stay, probablt mix it with other sections.

[Harika]

FIA hates WRC because its a danger to F1.

[random]

WRC needs at least 2 more snow rallies, perhaps raising the existing Quebec rally to WRC status, and adding another in the western US or Russia. It's silly for those in the sport to design special tires and cars for a single snow rally. And most fans I know find the single snow rally to be their favorite of the season, well, when there's snow. The Rally Sweden needs to move further north in order to guarantee snow. The Rally Quebec never has problems in that regard, neither would one held in December through March in the US Rockies.

I firmly believe the sport needs to limit the tarmac rallies to 2 or 3 of mixed surface. They are simply as boring as watching paint dry. This is not just my opinion, its one shared by many people I know and even the biggest of WRC forces like Dave Richards. Richards is commercial rights holder for WRC, the "Bernie Ecclestone" of the sport. His major concern is earning money with his investment. So I have to believe his poor opinion of tarmac rallies is based on the dismal TV ratings they draw.

I know there is some dissent here, some who prefer tarmac rallies. I suppose a French WRC fan would prefer tarmac rallies simply because French drivers tend to specialize in them. But this doesn't make tarmac rallies any less boring for the non French.

Most people I know watch WRC to see cars slide around and do things regular road cars cannot. They don't watch WRC to see touring cars run "single car qualifying" on dry pavement. This is effectively the truth of WRC tarmac rallies.

I'm not in favor of the widescale homogenization of the WRC. I'd really like to see the Safari back on the schedule. And neither do I think all the rallies should be run on gravel. Perhaps 3 or 4 should be on gravel, 3 or 4 on dirt, 3 or 4 on snow and 3 or 4 on mixed surfaces of tarmac, gravel, and dirt.

No, there would no longer be exclusive tarmac rallies, and I think the sport would be all the better for it.

[BRG]

Random's post is based on a misconception. Tarmac rallies are not boring - look at the Pannizzi picture in this thread - why do you think all those spectators (and there are thousands more out of shot on a motorway bridge above) bothered to turn up? Just to be bored?

As with F1, it is the cars that are the real problem, not the tracks. And as with F1, the FIA's favoured 'solution' is to change the tracks. But it is the current WR cars that need changing. Too much grip, too sticky tyres, too little power. So even on gravel, they are not spectacular. We need to change the cars for something cheaper, with a far better power to traction ratio. They can stick to the FIA's beloved 300bhp (allegedly) but lets revert to 2WD, with harder tyres (two sets per rally shoudl do it!) and NO active electronic differentials.

Rallying is all about an ever changing variety of challenges - running flat -out on different surfaces, in different weather, at different times of the day or night. All the FIA seem able to think of is ways to make it more and more like racing. ABd I am afraid random seems to be in their corner on this one.

[PPatrik :: LKF]

Originally posted by pacwest
Tarmac rallies need to stay.

http://rallyalbum.hu/video/wrc2002.wmv

3:14 seconds in.

That site (www.rallyalbum.hu) is mine! What a joy see this linked on Atlas BB!!! The vid wasn't made by me anyway we just collected it (and some more) here and the famous clip of Vatanen roaring upways at Pikes Peak here: Climb Dance (it's not the video direct but a page with some info about the Pikes, the track, Peugeot 405 T16 and the time records in the famous hungarian language and a link as well to the video /be careful: 69 MB/ )

At the first link I recommend the "WRC 2001" by Pou (6th from the bottom of the page). The best one I've seen so far in my life (beside the Climb Dance of corse).

[random]

Originally posted by BRG
Random's post is based on a misconception. Tarmac rallies are not boring - look at the Pannizzi picture in this thread - why do you think all those spectators (and there are thousands more out of shot on a motorway bridge above) bothered to turn up? Just to be bored?

I think the fans at large would tend to disagree. I think the TV numbers would as well. Just because spectators turn up for their local race, does little for the sport. Unlike nearly all other forms of motorsport, WRC makes Zero revenue from spectators. They make money from worldwide TV contracts. And based on Dave Richards comments, the TV ratings of tarmac events must be quite poor. It would seem the worldwide fans have spoken, Tarmac rallies are boring.

I do agree with you that the cars are a major reason tarmac rallies are so awfully boring. But blaming the cars doesn't make the events any less boring.

The loose surface events are usually anything but boring. The cars do get loose, they do break traction, the events are exciting. This because no amount of traction control can manufacture traction. Traction control and electronic differentials simply maximize the available traction, and there isn't much traction available on loose surface events. In sharp contrast to this, there is quite a bit of available traction on tarmac events. The electronic systems make full use of it to the huge detriment of the sport.

Sure, changing the cars *might* make tarmac rallies more exciting. But changing the tarmac events to loose surface events would *definitely* make the races more exciting. I like the cars as they are, and ditching the awful tarmac rallies is the easiest way to rid the sport of this handicap.

[BRG]

Well, random, we must agree to differ. I have spectated on many UK rallies, both gravel and tarmac, including many years on the old RAC Rally which was largely gravel. But some of the most exciting rally spectating that I have experienced has been on Belgian tarmac events like the 24 Uhren van Ieper. A Porsche or an Escort ditch-hooking around a tight corner on a narrow country lane can be every bit as exciting as any gravel rally - even the most spectacular ones like Rally Finland. But of course that was when the CARS were more spectacular. 4WD, turbocharged Group A and WR cars have squeezed much of the spectacle out of the top level of the sport, sadly.

[ViMaMo]

I don't agree why we should drop tarmac and hold on to rallies like Cyprus and Acropolis which is full of rocks, and cars go around at slow speeds. Any one could be knocked out by a loose rock. Such rough stages make sense for Paris-Dakar rather than WRC.

Ofcourse pure tarmac stages should be mixed with gravel or dirt. But it should be a majority of tarmac.

[ViMaMo]

Originally posted by PPatrik :: LKF


That site (www.rallyalbum.hu) is mine! What a joy see this linked on Atlas BB!!! The vid wasn't made by me anyway we just collected it (and some more) here and the famous clip of Vatanen roaring upways at Pikes Peak here: Climb Dance (it's not the video direct but a page with some info about the Pikes, the track, Peugeot 405 T16 and the time records in the famous hungarian language and a link as well to the video /be careful: 69 MB/ )

At the first link I recommend the "WRC 2001" by Pou (6th from the bottom of the page). The best one I've seen so far in my life (beside the Climb Dance of corse).

Thanks for the website, but aren't you in trouble with the FIA broadcasting this material? Seen a couple of nice websites shut down because of it.

[PPatrik :: LKF]

Originally posted by vivian



Thanks for the website, but aren't you in trouble with the FIA broadcasting this material? Seen a couple of nice websites shut down because of it.

Uuhm a hadn't get any sign about it. Or maybe I didn't read their e-mail, my public e-mail is full of spam
Anyway, we host some older stuff from 2003 and some more older. I think it's like yesterday's newspaper: don't hurt their businness. At least I hope so...