48 replies to this topic

[Kvadrat]

I am compiling 1937 season races list using various sources. There are some questions after watching at Hulton Archive pictures.

1. There's race at Crystal Palace on July 17. Was it's name London Grand Prix or London Trophy?

2. There are 2 pictures featuring probably the same driver at the same event:

http://editorial.get...d=3437873&cdi=0

http://editorial.get...d=3093355&cdi=0

Was Coronation Trophy race in October or on April 24? Which driver's name is correct - Scribban or Scribbons?

3. 8W: http://editorial.get...d=3250114&cdi=0

4. http://editorial.get...d=3437073&cdi=0

Race?

5. When was The Imperial Trophy?

http://editorial.get...d=3437870&cdi=0

Was it that first international Crystal Palace race?

http://editorial.get...d=3436618&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3436335&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3436335&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3422220&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3088172&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3437875&cdi=0

6. Which race was at Isle of Man on June 3?

http://editorial.get...d=3368057&cdi=0

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Kvadrat
I am compiling 1937 season races list using various sources. There are some questions after watching at Hulton Archive pictures.

1. There's race at Crystal Palace on July 17. Was it's name London Grand Prix or London Trophy?1st London Grand Prix.

2. There are 2 pictures featuring probably the same driver at the same event:

http://editorial.get...d=3437873&cdi=0

http://editorial.get...d=3093355&cdi=0

Was Coronation Trophy race in October or on April 24? Which driver's name is correct - Scribban or Scribbons?April 24 correct. Dvr;Dennis Scribbans

3. 8W: http://editorial.get...d=3250114&cdi=0

4. http://editorial.get...d=3437073&cdi=0

Race?

5. When was The Imperial Trophy? October 9

http://editorial.get...d=3437870&cdi=0

Was it that first international Crystal Palace race?

http://editorial.get...d=3436618&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3436335&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3436335&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3422220&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3088172&cdi=0
http://editorial.get...d=3437875&cdi=0

6. Which race was at Isle of Man on June 3? 1st RAC Light Car Race

http://editorial.get...d=3368057&cdi=0

Last batch of photos apparently taken on Wednesday 6th october,Mercedes did demo not race. This was middle of the week between Donington GP and the Imperial Trophy.Imperial Trophy was first motor race televised live anywhere in the world.

[Kvadrat]

Thank you!

[Vitesse2]

I'm pretty sure the two Kay Petre pictures are from the Crystal Palace Cup meeting on August 14th 1937 - AFAIK that was the only time she raced at the Palace that year.

And in the IoM picture, it should of course be R Tongue, not E Tongue.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
And in the IoM picture, it should of course be R Tongue, not E Tongue.

...or R E Tongue, in period style ;)

[RAP]

The 1937 Crystal Palace meetings were -
24 April Coronation Trophy
17 July London Grand Prix
14 August Crystal Palace Cup
9 October Imperial Trophy

The Coronation Trophy was a 1500cc scratch race but all the others were handicaps for unlimited racing cars. It should be noted that all these handicaps were handicapped in groups by engine size thus all the 1100cc cars started together etc. For example, at the Imperial Trophy the 1100cc cars had 75 seconds start over the scratch cars, the 2500cc cars (mainly infact 1500's) had 15 seconds and the +2500cc cars on scratch. The grid positions in each group were set by practice times. Thus there were in effect three cocurrent scratch races going on.

With regards to the photographs
1 & 2 are of Scribbans at the Coronation Trophy as correctly stated - the only Crystal Palace meeting he entered. The captioning October is wrong - No1 at the meeting was Leslie Brooke

The two pictures of Kay Petre must be 14 August as that was her only race at Crystal Palace.

The other pictures dated 6 October certainly relate to the Imperial Trophy. Remember that all Crystal Palace meetings were held on Saturdays. According to Motor Sport practice was on Thursday the 7th. It is possible that the 6th was some sort of press day or that the date is wrong. Dick Seaman demonstrated the Mercedes on the 9th October together with a 1902 Merceds to be driven by Peter Mitchell-Thomson.

RAP

[Kvadrat]

Originally posted by RAP
The 1937 Crystal Palace meetings were -
24 April Coronation Trophy
17 July London Grand Prix
14 August Crystal Palace Cup
9 October Imperial Trophy

Didn't find statistics for these races. Please, help.

******

Was Vanderbildt Cup international race counted for AAA championship or AAA championship race open for an international entries?

[RAP]

Coronation Trophy 2x20 lap heats, 30 lap 60 mile final
1.Pat Fairfield ERA 53.77mph
2. Arthur Dobson ERA
3. Robin Hanson Maserati
4. Percy Maclure Riley
5. Peter Whitehead ERA
no other finishers

London GP 2x 10 lap heats, 15 lap 30 mile final
1. B Bira ERA 54.36mph
2. Ian Connell ERA
3. Percy Maclure Riley
4. Reg Parnell MG K3
5. Robin Hanson Maserati
6. ???

Crystal Palace Cup 15 lap 30 mile
1. Bert Hadley Austin 750 49.83mph
2. B Bira Maserati 8CM
3. Reg Parnell MG K3
4. Percy Maclure Riley
5. Kay Petre Austin 750
6. Peter Aitken Maserati 6CM

Imperial Trophy 2x 10 lap heats. 15 lap 30 mile final
1. B Bira ERA 57.80mph
2. Arthur Dobson ERA
3. Charles Goodacre Austin 750
4. Luigi Villoresi Maserati 6CM
5. Johnny Lurani Maserati 4CM
6. Percy Maclure Riley
7. Robin Hanson Maserati
8. J H T Smith MG K3

[Vitesse2]

For the Imperial Trophy I can add:

9 AB Hyde 2.9 Maserati
10 Stuart Wilton MG Midget
etc?

[Kvadrat]

According to The Golden Era of Grand Prix Racing, Fredenloppet consisted of 2 races. Were they separate ones with awards given for each win? Were they 750 kg Grand Prix class cars races?

In the same source name of Turin race is given as GRAN PREMIO PRINCIPE DEI PIEMONTE/GRAN PREMIO DEL VALENTINO. Is 'DEI' correct, or schould it be 'DEL'? Were they two different prizes called Principal of Piemonte Grand Prix and Valentino Grand Prix? Were they given for the Grand Prix and Voiturette races respectively? Were they two different races, one after the other?

CIRCUITO DI TORINO
PARCO VALENTINO -Torino (I), 18 APRIL 1937 VOITURETTE 1500cc (hot)

What does (hot) mean in here?

[Pavel Lifintsev]

Originally posted by Kvadrat
What does (hot) mean in here?

I suspect ''hot'' means weather that day.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by .ru

I suspect ''hot'' means weather that day.

However,there does not seem to be a weather report on on any of the other races on that site?

[Kvadrat]

Weather report usually looks like:

GRAN PREMIO DI FIRENZE
Firenze (I), 13 JUNE 1937 VOITURETTE 1500cc
70 laps, 19 starters. Weather: very hot

[quintin cloud]

Cool thanks for the results RAP

[ricardo1954]

Hello:

I have a question about the race(s) of Phoenix Park in September 11th:

There are two races - one of GP cars and other for voiturettes?
Or only one race with all the cars?

Can anyone help me to know the results of this(ese) race(s)?

Thank you.

Ricardo

[RAP]

According to "The Green Dust - Ireland's Unique Motor Racing History 1900-1939" by Brendan Lynch there were two races. This agrees with Motor Sport that gives -
100 mile Scratch race for 1500cc cars 20 laps
1. R Mays ERA
2. J Wakefield Maserati
3 W Cotton ERA
4 R Hanson Maserati
5 B Bira Delage 19 laps
6 F O'Boyle Alta 19
A Dobson Maserati 12 laps
P Aitken Maserati 12
R Tongue ERA 2
P Whitehead ERA 0

The 100 mile Handicap
1. Davy Yule 952s CMY
2. B Bira 2.9s Maserati
3 I Nickol MG 750s
4 Manliffe Barrington Rapier 1100s
5 D McCracken Morgan 1122
6 A W MacRobert MG1087s
7 M W May Alvis 2.0
8 G D Colley Frazer Nash 1496
9 A P Macarthur MG1087s
10 W Sullivan 995 Fiat
11 N H Killingley 1089 Riley
12 W J Blackburne 1495 Aston Martin
13 D Leechman 933 Ford
14 R B le Fanu 1496 L.E.R.A
Mays ERA retired lap 3

RAP

[ricardo1954]

RAP :

Thank you for yours informations!

Ricardo

[Kvadrat]

There are two interesting pictures posted at Crasherama forum.





Copyright and original source unknown.

I think this is 1937 German Grand Prix.

The question is about two crashed cars. It's very hard to recognize the car behind Caracciola in the first picture, but well visible car on both pictures is two seater Alfa Romeo Monza. According to all available statistics Monzas did not race in 1937 German Grand Prix.

The car's number is 30, 36 or 38. Only Maseratis had these numbers in the race.

Can this car be abandoned at previous races or tests?

[Vitesse2]

Prompted by Marcel Visbeen's query in another thread I had another look at these pictures and I'm 95% certain it's Minozzi's car in the ditch.

I think Vladimir was right in identifying the number as 30. Although Leif has Minozzi driving a Maserati, in other 1937 races he was in an Alfa - one unidentified and two stated as Monzas.

[ERault]

Simon Moore states in his book (The Legendary 2.3) that this car was indeed crashed by Minozzi, but failed to track down its identity. Apparently, that same car was run at the 1937 Freiburg hillclimb. It was not Minozzi's more usual Monza he raced several times in 1937.

[Manel Baró]

Originally posted by Kvadrat

The question is about two crashed cars. It's very hard to recognize the car behind Caracciola in the first picture,

Could be a Maserati tipo CM...

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Kvadrat
There are two interesting pictures posted at Crasherama forum.





Copyright and original source unknown.

I think this is 1937 German Grand Prix.

The question is about two crashed cars. It's very hard to recognize the car behind Caracciola in the first picture, but well visible car on both pictures is two seater Alfa Romeo Monza. According to all available statistics Monzas did not race in 1937 German Grand Prix.

The car's number is 30, 36 or 38. Only Maseratis had these numbers in the race.

Can this car be abandoned at previous races or tests?

It certainly looks like the Nurburgring. If it's not the GP then it might be the Eifelrennen. Or, were there races at Solitude or Hockenheim in 1937?

[Vitesse2]

Numbers don't fit for the Eifelrennen, Solitude never saw a Formula race and Hockenheim didn't host a race for cars until after WW2.

Manel: I agree it looks like an early 6CM-1500, but that would just present another problem as there weren't apparently any in the entry list!

[r.atlos]

This is definately the 1937 GP and the car in the ditch is the 8CM of Giovanni Minozzi. You can clearly identify 8 exhausts on the first picture ...

[r.atlos]

Oh, sh... - I should have read all postings and taken a closer look at the picture - it's, of course, an Alfa !
Shame on me ...

[Vitesse2]

Well, I was just about to point out that M stands for Monoposto ....

Or Einsitzer if you prefer

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Hockenheim didn't host a race for cars until after WW2.

...except for 1938
But there weren't any GP cars there

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by David McKinney

...except for 1938

Oops, forgot that one!

And of course MB did use it for testing, but I think there's a few more people there than good old Spy George.

[taylov]

Originally posted by Kvadrat
There are two interesting pictures posted at Crasherama forum.





The question is about two crashed cars. It's very hard to recognize the car behind Caracciola in the first picture, but well visible car on both pictures is two seater Alfa Romeo Monza. According to all available statistics Monzas did not race in 1937 German Grand Prix.

The car's number is 30, 36 or 38. Only Maseratis had these numbers in the race.

From my post on "the other thread"

Re the the 1937 Grand Prix. Two Italian cars were certainly involved in a crash on Lap 4 (Snellman) or Lap 5 (Posthumus; The German GP) - All records confirm the identity of the two drivers who crashed as Minozzi and Severi but both were down to drive Maserati entries according to the programme.

Is it possible that one swopped to a Monza after the programme was printed? This would explain the two wrecks within a few yards of each other which can be seen in the full version photograph. If one of these drivers had switched to a Monza Alfa, my money would be on Minozzi as his practice time was a slow 14m 47.2s, over 5 minutes slower than Rosemeyer.

Tony

[Dutchy]

While it is clear that the crashed car in the foreground is an Alfa Romeo Monza, the identity of the car behind has not been established. I think it is a Maserati 8CM and not a 6CM.

[GIGLEUX]

First car is an Alfa Monza for sure.
Second car is not a 8CM: look at the rather huge windscreen: offset on the right and strangely looking like the one of the Alfa.
For me two pictures of the same car!

[Dutchy]

I think you misunderstood me. I'm referring to the second crashed car in the first picture.
Of course the main car in the two photos (apart from the Mercedes-Benz) is the same Alfa Monza - that's obvious

[Allan Lupton]

I think we are talking of the second car being the one behind the Mercedes' driver's head on the top photo. That's a single-seater with no offset to its windscreen and I agree probably a Maserati.

Edited to say: beaten to it!

[GIGLEUX]

Just find a picture of the second car. From The Autocar July 30th 1937 issue, page 195. For sure a Maserati, with a front end looking like a 6CM one, n°52.
I haven't the possibility to post it here but if somebody is interested just send me an e-mail with your e-address.

[taylov]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Just find a picture of the second car. From The Autocar July 30th 1937 issue, page 195. For sure a Maserati, with a front end looking like a 6CM one, n°52.

#52 was Francesco Severi in a 6C Maserati which confirms his involvement in the accident on Lap 4 or 5, depending on source.

Tony

[Otto Grabe]

Originally posted by taylov


#52 was Francesco Severi in a 6C Maserati which confirms his involvement in the accident on Lap 4 or 5, depending on source.

Tony

I guess, it's the same picture as in Kings of the Nürburgring: Rosemeyer passing Giulio Severi's Maserati

[GIGLEUX]

No, on the picture I spoke about, it is the MB W125 of Caracciola which is passing.

[ERault]

Do we all agree that Severi's Maserati was a 6C-34 (the 3700 cc grand prix 6C) rather than a 6CM (the 1500 cc voiturette 6C) ?

[GIGLEUX]

Not sure at all. What the picture shows is a car with the 1936 6CM front cowling and two belts to maintain the hood: typical of the 6CM.

[taylov]

Originally posted by Otto Grabe


I guess, it's the same picture as in Kings of the Nürburgring: Rosemeyer passing Giulio Severi's Maserati

Leif Snellman has clarified the confusion over Severi's name on the "Golden Age" website.

"Francesco Severi raced Alfas for Scuderia Ferrari, then Voiturette Maseratis and in 1938-39 he was reserve driver for Alfa Corse. (There has been a great confusion about Severi especially in the Anglo Saxon racing literature. However the correct name is definitely Francesco Severi so disregard all references to any Giulio/Guido/Luigi Severi). (Thanks to Rudiger de Jonghe for sorting up the name and for Alessandro Silva for confirming)"

- from Leif Snellman

[Adam F]

From looking closely at the Autocar photograph of Severi's crashed Maserati (No. 52), it does very much look as if his car was a 6CM, as Jean-Maurice says. Of course he raced such a car in Voiturette races during 1937.

[coco]

Originally posted by Adam F
From looking closely at the Autocar photograph of Severi's crashed Maserati (No. 52), it does very much look as if his car was a 6CM, as Jean-Maurice says. Of course he raced such a car in Voiturette races during 1937.

It was most likely #1534.

Ciao!
Walter

[ERault]

I am glad I asked, then. I am more than ready to accept Severi's car as being a 6CM, but looking at Leif's site (http://www.kolumbus....an/gp374.htm#29), I see Severi managed a 11:47 lap time on practice, when Cortese with the other 6CM only got down to 14:04. I know qualification times in the 30s were not as important as nowadays, but I find such a gap a bit puzzling. Was 11:47 a realistic lap time for a voiturette in the late 1930s ?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by ERault
I am glad I asked, then. I am more than ready to accept Severi's car as being a 6CM, but looking at Leif's site (http://www.kolumbus....an/gp374.htm#29), I see Severi managed a 11:47 lap time on practice, when Cortese with the other 6CM only got down to 14:04. I know qualification times in the 30s were not as important as nowadays, but I find such a gap a bit puzzling. Was 11:47 a realistic lap time for a voiturette in the late 1930s ?

Certainly achievable. Trossi's fastest race lap in the 1936 Eifelrennen was 11'46.4" - again in a 6CM. His average lap time in that race was about 12'10".

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by RAP
.... 14 R B le Fanu 1496 L.E.R.A

Can anyone perhaps tell me what the L.E.R.A. was? And perhaps what the letters stood for? I'd guess RA is "Racing Automobile" as in ERA, but what about the rest?

Obviously it's an Irish special, but 1496cc could hide a multitude of sins: Meadows engine as fitted to Frazer Nashes etc, Riley, Alvis or even Bugatti .....

[David McKinney]

His previous car was an adLER - maybe a clue?

[RStock]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Can anyone perhaps tell me what the L.E.R.A. was? And perhaps what the letters stood for? I'd guess RA is "Racing Automobile" as in ERA, but what about the rest?

Obviously it's an Irish special, but 1496cc could hide a multitude of sins: Meadows engine as fitted to Frazer Nashes etc, Riley, Alvis or even Bugatti .....

I've seen the LERA name associated with Brooklands . And I wonder if that name should be Paddy Le Fanu , instead of RB . The RB is reminescent of how ERA designated their cars R1B and such . I wonder if it was associated with ERA . The only time I know of them using a 1496cc was in their voiturette car of 1939 .

So as you can see , I'm totally clueless .

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by REDARMYSOJA


I've seen the LERA name associated with Brooklands . And I wonder if that name should be Paddy Le Fanu , instead of RB . The RB is reminescent of how ERA designated their cars R1B and such . I wonder if it was associated with ERA . The only time I know of them using a 1496cc was in their voiturette car of 1939 .

So as you can see , I'm totally clueless .

Yep, RB Le Fanu was known as Paddy. But AFAIK he never raced outside Ireland. As David pointed out, he ran an Adler before the LERA, which first appears in 1936 or 1937. But the Adler was only 995cc ....

If I was guessing, I'd say Riley or Meadows engines were favourite, but 1496cc is a common number.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Can anyone perhaps tell me what the L.E.R.A. was? And perhaps what the letters stood for? I'd guess RA is "Racing Automobile" as in ERA, but what about the rest?

Obviously it's an Irish special, but 1496cc could hide a multitude of sins: Meadows engine as fitted to Frazer Nashes etc, Riley, Alvis or even Bugatti .....

Aha! Found it! In early entry lists for the 1937 Leinster Trophy, Le Fanu is listed as driving a Lea Francis, but come first practice he's suddenly in a Lera (note the lack of initials). In the race, and ever after, it becomes a LERA. So a Meadows engine would look most likely, given the LeaF connection.

And although it would theoretically have built for road racing and hillclimbs, I've found that he also used it for trials: although Irish trials of the period appear to be more like short regularity runs with driving tests of various sorts interspersed between the stages.