127 replies to this topic

[KarlOakie Research]

I searched but did not find exactly what I was looking, so either I overlooked it or didn't ask the "right" questions. Sorry.

After the Belgian GP -- the fourth or fifth round of the championship according to your inclinations -- the GP championship was being led by Stirling Moss with 17 points, Mike Hawthorn had 14 points, and Luigi Musso had 12 points. And, yet, whenever the 1958 season is discussed Musso's sole contribution to the GP scene seems to be his crash at Reims. Peter Collins had scored only 4 points by that point and Tony Brooks had his 8 from Spa.

Just a matter of the scene being dimmed due of the passage of time? The Anglo-centric nature of the season? Or just the nature of anything that far back being relegated to the "who cares?" pile?

Not sure that Musso could have nipped Hawthorn or Moss for the crown, but he certainly could have been a spoiler. Of course, we will never know, but then again.....

[Tim Murray]

He finished second in the first two championship Grands Prix of the season, so was actually leading the World Championship after Monaco.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research

After the Belgian GP -- the fourth or fifth round of the championship according to your inclinations --

How can it be other than the fourth?

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

How can it be other than the fourth?

If the Indianapolis 500 (an official WCh round) is included than Belgium was the fifth round.

Gerrit Stevens

[KarlOakie Research]

Maybe I should just ask that this be dropped since it is apparently a waste of time.

[Barry Boor]

To me, Luigi Musso was a very difficult driver to evaluate. He would appear to have been in the top half dozen or so at the time of his death but his position in the Ferrari team was somewhat awkward. By that I mean it is said that Enzo was putting a lot of pressure on him as he was the only Italian in F.1 at the time, let alone the only one in a Ferrari; he must have felt that he was a little out in the cold as his two team mates were both Brits and were very close; and then there were the debts......

In many ways, Musso was an accident waiting to happen.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
Maybe I should just ask that this be dropped since it is apparently a waste of time.

Patience, my good man...

After noting that he didn't have time to wonder what had happened to Musso, Stirling Moss concluedes his section about the relevant race in A Turn at the Wheel with this:

From all accounts the accident was caused by an error of judgement on one of the parts of the circuit where there is no room for a mistake. One can afford to take risks, or make a mistake, on slow bends, but one has to be very careful not to do this on a bend where one might be travelling at 140 mph or more; I think he was probably trying a little too hard and it was a disastrous place for a mistake.

Prior to this, he wrote:

...Mike winning very easily to score Ferrari's first major victory of the season, but one bought with the death of Luigi Musso, the last of the great postwar generation of Italian drivers, who died from his injuries when he went off on the long right-hander just past the pits.

Now... if you give me some time (maybe even a few weeks...) I will look up the copies of Motor Racing I have from the period and see what sort of comments they make about the man prior to his death. I think that's what you want?

Please remind me if I seem to have forgotten...

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

Patience, my good man...

Seconded...

[D-Type]

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
Maybe I should just ask that this be dropped since it is apparently a waste of time.

Hold your horses! It's only three days since you posted the question. This evening is the fIrst time I have had a chance to look at my books to consider Musso's record and see if it confirms my feelings.

I agree with Barry's assessment. Musso put in some good performances but doesn't really rank as a real top liner. In his entire GP career he only appears to have been fastest qualifier in his team twice, and it wasn't always the same driver beating him. It's much the same in sports cars he had a fex outstanding performances like 3rd in the Mille Miglia in a 2 litre Maserati and winning the Targa, but by and large he was essentially 'just another works driver'. With the departure of Fangio, the 1958 season was wide open. But in the early races the Cooper wins were so unexpected to rank as freak results, so the whole championship table had an unreal feel to it. He may have been third in the championship, but this was due to the rate of attrition in the early races and more a result of steady drivesrather than brilliant ones.

I think to describe the reporting as 'Anglo-centric' is a bit strong. British cars and drivers were coming to the fore for what was really the first time so it is reasonable to expect the British press to show an interest. Although the writers had their favourites the race reporting was generally objective. I'm sure the feeling was generally that Musso's position was a flash in the pan rather than that he was a real contender for the Championship. His death received the same treatment as the majority of them did in that period. A mention of an unfortunate happening in the race report and maybe a quarter page obituary. That's the way it was, not a pro-British or anti-Italian stance but more a case of ignoring the downside.

I don't know how widely Musso's gambling debts were known at the time. I think most of today's writers feel that tjhey were one of the main motives for his Monza 500 showing and for him taking the curve too fast.

If Musso were racing today he would be number two driver in one of the top teams rather like Coulthard or Barrichello.

[Ray Bell]

I think you've been a bit harsh there, D-Type... at least in regard to this part:

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
.....The Anglo-centric nature of the season?

This doesn't relate to the reporting so much as to the development of the latter part of the season and the contest for the final result. There is no mention, in fact, in that original post about 'reporting'... rather 'discussion'... which I take to mean modern day discussion.

My understanding is that KarlOakie Research would like to get into that 'reporting' of the time and find out what then-current opinions were...

[KarlOakie Research]

Thank you, Mr. Bell, for the very kind offer, but I think that I already have more than enough material in English, but would really appreciate something from, say, the Italian point of view. Given the poor phrasing of the question, you sense the intent -- what is out there that generally gets overlooked whenever the 1958 season is considered, especially from non-English sources. Opinions -- contemporary and retroactive -- I have, I would be interested in seeing a few more non-English sources for the season, both pre and post-Reims.

I only asked this since after reading through issues of Motor Sport and a numer of other contemporary English language magazines covering the 1958 GP season and then reading the retroactively written accounts of the season, there often seems to be little said about much other than the Hawthorn Moss duel for the championship. Then again, perhaps that is simply an unorthodox view and one that is particular to me.

[Ray Bell]

You have Motor Racing?

I ask this because, although it's an English magazine, they had a European correspondent who wasn't (as best I can tell...) English.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by D-Type

I don't know how widely Musso's gambling debts were known at the time. I think most of today's writers feel that tjhey were one of the main motives for his Monza 500 showing and for him taking the curve too fast.

How can anyone know that? I prefer to think of him as a very brave racer who knew that the future of Italian racing rested on his shoulders and who made a mistake in lapping slower cars.

Please don't forget his win a Reims the pevious year. It may not have counted for the world championship, but it was a Grand Prix in every other respect. Also his fastest lap in the 1957 French Grand Prix is too often forgotten.

[KarlOakie Research]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
You have Motor Racing?

I ask this because, although it's an English magazine, they had a European correspondent who wasn't (as best I can tell...) English.

Bernard Cahier, who also wrote for about a half dozen other magazines -- usually the same report, but with variations when possible.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
Bernard Cahier, who also wrote for about a half dozen other magazines -- usually the same report, but with variations when possible.

Writing under the name of "Coche"?

Whatever, I note that he mentions Musso under a sub-heading "Italian Driver Shortage"...

Testing recently at Modena were Jean Behra, his wrist out of plaster, and Luigi Musso who is much thinner after his long illness.

That was the July 1957 issue...

[Ray Bell]

Well... like it or not, here's the obituary from Motor Racing August, 1958:

LUIGI MUSSO, Italy's only Grade One driver at the start of this season, was fatally injured when his Ferrari left the road and overturned during the French Grand Prix at Reims on 6 July. Musso was in second place at the time, and it seems that it was his determination to keep within striking distance of Hawthorn that cost him his life.

Following the loss of Alberto Ascari and Eugenio Castellotti, the death of Musso is a tragic blow to Italian motor racing - and indeed to the sport as a whole. The Roman driver was very much aware of his responsibilities as Italian champion and this, together with his great courage, sometimes made his driving brilliantly spectacular.

Musso, who was 31, had a long list of successes to his credit, especially in sports car racing, and his most recent victory was gained in this year's Targa Florio, in which he shared the driving of a Ferrari with Olivier Gendebien. In 1956 he was second (with Schell) in the Sebring 12-hours Race, and third in the Mille Miglia, on both occasions at the wheel of a Ferrari, and in 1957 he shared the driving of the Ferrari which won the Buenos Aires 1000kms event.

In 1957 Musso was at one point the only driver in a position to challenge Fangio for the World Championship, a situation which resulted in a fantastic, but unsuccessful, drive in the Grand Prix of Pescar, for which he obtained the use of a privately-entered Formula 1 Ferrari - a tribute to his prestige with the Italian people. The same wild enthusiasm from his country folk which greeted his shortlived lead at Pescara was again evident at Monza only a week before his death, when he gained an initial lead in the first part of the 500 miles event, performing prodigies with an unsuitable car until cockpit heat and exhaust fumes overcame him.

His greatest achievement in a Formula 1 event was probably his second place, together with a record lap in the 1957 French Grand Prix at Rouen. A week later he won the non-Championship Grand Prix of Reims for Ferrari at an average of 123.4 mph. The following Saturday he finished second in the 1957 British Grand Prix at Aintree. He was also second in this year's Argentine and Monaco Grands Prix, as a result of which he became (temporarily) leader in the World Drivers' Championship.

Fatal accidents are fortunately extremely rare in Formula 1 racing, and it seems all the more tragic that Musso should have lost his life on the type of circuit on which he was at his best. His fellow drivers, of all nationalities, mourn his passing; Italy will find it extremely difficult to replace him.

In the previous issue there is an article about a conversation with Ferrari about his team, car developments and drivers. In this there is a paragraph that relates to your question:

Commenting on his drivers, he said "Hawthorn on a good day is quite brilliant, and at his best he is faster than Fangio, but he is . . . " and he made a gesture which expressively conveyed Hawthorn's temperament. On Musso "He has a beautiful style. He drives as well as Varzi but he has not quite such an aggressive nature." And Collins? "Absolutely reliable - a 'pilote honnete' - consistent, no trouble with temperament, and still developing."

Within eight months, of course, all three would be dead. Musso because of agression? Collins because he developed? Hawthorn succumbed to his temperament? Well, I certainly don't know that... but I think it's an interesting reflection.

[David McKinney]

Surely Motor Racing's Continental Correspondent "Coche" was Hans Tanner?

[Ray Bell]

A better bet than old Bernie, I reckon...

And what about "Chandos"?



Why can't I stop thinking about the nom de plume "Jerry Brook" when these things come up?

[Doug Nye]

Karl - welcome to TNF - 'Coche' was Hans Tanner until he flew the coop and Pete Coltrin took over under the same pseudonym. During Tanner's reign Jenks always referred to this material as 'The Cock Column' because that's what Tanner seemed to talk (write) most of the time...

I have always understood that, in period, Musso - while recognised as pretty much one of the best Italian drivers around - was not rated any higher than that...even by his fellow countrymen. He was good, of that there is no doubt, but he lacked the fire of Castellotti and the technical wiles of Taruffi, he certainly wasn't a Moss or a Fangio, or a Hawthorn...or a Collins. It's like thinking of Coulthard versus Montoya, and there's absolutely no way in this world he'd be viewed as a match for a Schumacher (M).

My friend Gianni Cancellieri recorded this reminiscence from 1958-61 team manager Romolo Tavoni:

“Unfortunately. Luigi Musso lost his life at Reims, in that French G.P. he wanted to win at all costs, first because he was convinced that he could become world champion and, second, because that was the richest race of all: victory was worth 10 million, five times the normal finishing purse. And he had launched a commercial activity in Rome (importer of American cars, Plymouths) together with Mario Bornigia, heavily exposing himself financially. Just before the race he received a telegram from his partner, humorous but unsettling: ‘win, because the IOU comes due tomorrow’. At lap 10 he was second, a few yards behind his teammate Hawthorn. He entered the fast corner following the straight and couldn't hold the line. He lost control of the car, spun off the track at 250 km/h and goodbye.”

DCN

PS - 'Chandos' was either the publisher, Roy Pearl, or the later editor Alan Brinton, sometimes his oppo, John Blunsden...

[Ray Bell]

That being the case, Doug, who wrote their 1957 Mille Miglia report?

[Doug Nye]

Hmm - doesn't read like Tanner. The word 'I' does not appear.

No by-line - which suggests it was contributed by somebody present on a rival publication's payroll and expenses...

I would incline, perhaps, towards Edward Eves of 'The Autocar' as being a potential author of that piece...or it might have been Roy Pearl himself, though it reads too well I would have thought...

Dunno...

DCN

[Ray Bell]

It paints a superb word picture... but it's full of errors...

Though a lot of that might be the result of hurried typesetting.

And, to get back on track here, it notes just one thing in relation to Musso...

Then news came through that Taruffi would drive for Ferrari for the first time since their disagreement in the Targa Florio. News came also that Musso was very ill again and would not be able to take part in the Mille Miglia.

Again, mention of his illness... what was this exactly?

[KarlOakie Research]

Thanks, I think I have enough to go on now. Appreciate it.

[Ray Bell]

Just for the record, do you have anything salient to add?

It seems as though you are on a quest for a purpose... how about you let us know the gaps that are in our picture above... such as his 'long illness' for instance. And do you have anything concrete about gambling debts etc? Providing it pertains to his story, of course...

After all, by default, this becomes the Luigi Musso thread, doesn't it?

[KarlOakie Research]

This was in response to a question given to me and I simply wondered what others may have had that I didn't. Not that much apparently. Plus, I had Bernard Cahier on the brain when Hans Tanner was who I was thinking about -- although both were fairly prolific scribes writing for a number of magazines during this period.

I do find it a bit dismaying how quickly some seem to leap to conclusions that are more in line with the scandal sheets or are very dismissive of a driver simply because he was not one of the "elite of the elite". While it is fair to say that Musso did not belong on the same plateau as, say, Moss or Fangio or even Brooks or Hawthorn or Collins -- few were then or later; neither was he the no-hoper that some seem to imply. His personal "problems" were, at the time, generally known only within the tight circle of the racing community -- leaving his wife and two children for a teenager, the accumulation of debt for various reasons in his commercial ventures (the gambling stories I have yet to see much more than something notional while his dealership problems seems to have some basis), were not bantered about very openly at the time -- at least outside Italy....

As to whether Musso could have aced Moss or Hawthorn for the championship, I think that the general consensus is probably correct -- no, but stranger things have happened. I think that he may have been something of a spoiler in the title fight, but as to whom is an open-ended question, as much to Hawthorn as Moss would be a good guess. However, we will never know.

[Ray Bell]

Still nothing on the 'long illness'?

[SEdward]

Dear KarlOakie Research,

I have not noticed anyone leaping to conclusions in line with scandal sheets or being very dismissive of Musso. All I can add is a recommendation to read the chapters 59 and 60 of "Mon Ami Mate" that include DSJ's account of events.

Can any of our Italian members contribute contemporary press reports about Musso's final week?

Edward.

[KarlOakie Research]

Edward, I beg to differ, but that is perhaps more a matter of perception. Perhaps I merely expected more from here. And, yes, I have had the Nixon book for some time and am familiar with the Musso comments.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
Perhaps I merely expected more from here.

[KarlOakie Research]

Originally posted by Ruairidh

I just assumed that I was obviously overlooking some items and likewise made the assumption -- or rather had the expectation -- that I would get an "Ahah!" light or two from this, such as some items from out of the mainstream so to speak. No problem, one accepts what is and moves on.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
Perhaps I merely expected more from here.

Precisely what were you expecting.

You blow in from nowhere and ask a searching question. We know nothing about you - for example, I see no entry on the 'Introduce yourself' thread. We have no idea of your interests, your background, what country you are from, your level of knowledge, etc. Are you an enthusiast, an amateur historian, a journalist, or perhaps a student in a panic with an assignment to complete (we've had those before now).

Then 36 hours after posing the question you say

Maybe I should just ask that this be dropped since it is apparently a waste of time.

. Do you expect people to drop everything to respond to your query?

For example, as I said in my response, I had not had time to open a reference book to check my facts before posting. Had you visited this forum before you would have noticed a certain respect for factual accuracy.

Several members have given you their considered opinions. And all you can say is 'I expected more from here'

You do of course realise that Doug Nye has told us he is labouring against a tight deadline, having been asked to produce a revision updating one of his books in two weeks flat? And yet he found the time to write 300 words for you. I see no 'Thank you' just a carping 'I expected more from here'

Ray Bell has been through his library to find a quotation from Stirling Moss and again to find an obituary written by a non-Briton as you requested, and you say 'I expected more from here'.

David McKinney has quietly corrected another poster. Knowing David, if he had anything pertinent to add he would have done so. And you say 'I expected more from here'

Some of our more knowledgeable members only visit the forum once a week and it is now a mere four days since you started this thread.

Having seen your other postings, I feel you clearly have a lot to contribute. However you must accept that this forum is not a tap you can turn and get an instant flow of knowledge (not my words but those of a senior member)

[KarlOakie Research]

If I am reading Mr. D-Type's response correctly -- making the assumption that he more than likely speaks for more than himself, perhaps I am in error as to the nature of this forum. Had I realized that there was an requirement to post a complete resume to be reviewed, complete an entry in the introductions section listing my interests, nationality, level of knowledge, whether I am an enthusiast or merely a fan or a journalist or whatnot, and so forth, and once these were reviewed and only after being judged worthy of the honor of being allowed to ask a question, I would have saved myself a great deal of trouble. I am sorry if I caused anyone any problems. In the future, I will think three or four times before asking for any assistance from this forum. Thanks for the warm welcome.

[D-Type]

Calm down! I was merely pointing out that a few good manners would not come amiss.

And the opinions are my own. I speak only for myself, not for the rest of the members

[D-Type]

From the 1963 translation of Enzo Ferrari’s autobiography Le Mie Gioie Terribili (My Terrible Joys)

The greatest Italian drivers of the third generation were Alberto Ascari, Eugenio Castellotti and Luigi Musso.
~
Luigi Musso was the last Italian driver of international class, that is to say, the last example of that school of aces, beginning with Nazzaro, that was distinguished by perfection of style.
~
Little has been written but much has been said, about that accident in which Musso met his death and in which Mike Hawthorn was involved. Most people will never know the truth, or all the truth, about it. It is a fact, though that when eagerness for victory grips a determined driver he is liable to take incalculable risks, especially when his direct rival is animated by the same stubborn will to win. Such agonising rivalries are not confined, either to the drivers of different manufacturers or teams.
I have repeatedly thought about that crash on the Muizon bend. There is a disconcerting fatalism about it - and it also clearly teaches that accidents on the track are always due to several concomitant causes. I have never tired of asking those who might know something about it to seek those causes.
On that very fast bend, that comes after the grandstand straight, there were two men - team mates- at the wheels of two equally powerful cars and each equally anxious to win. I do not think there was any personal rivalry between Musso and Hawthorn. They admired one another and were good friends, even though they were of widely differing temperaments. But on that bend, they probably engaged in a brief, ruthless battle.
Hawthorn was already tired of racing, after nine years of high speed thrills and risks. He had given me to understand that he meant to do his very utmost to win the World Championship, after which he would finally retire. That year, he had a good position in the classification, being second to Stirling Moss, and he knew that his dream might be within reach if he could only win at Rheims. He therefore left the starting line more than ever resolved to make an out-and-out effort to wrest the first place for himself.
Musso had won at Rheims the previous year. The circuit was one that suited his style and he was therefore full of confidence. Musso, too, was after the World Championship and he, too, had a good chance of winning it. What is more, at that moment, there were other things too that acted as a spur upon him.
On the eve of the race, he had, in fact, received a message: a few words typed on a buff telegram form that urged him to make an all-out effort. He had to win - the first prize at Rheims was ten times greater than the one in other Grand Prix events.
Musso moreover, had a secret that he was rightly convinced had helped him to win the previous year. Fangio had told him that he could gain half a second if he kept his foot hard down on the Muizon bend, where every driver eased the throttle.
And the year before, Musso had indeed kept the accelerator flat down. The following year, though, the Ferraris had more power and, in practice, Musso had found he was taking a big risk; would he have to throttle back this time?
They thus went into the bend, Hawthorn in front and Musso about twenty yards behind him. I am convinced that, in the excitement of the chase, Musso kept his foot down.
it is difficult to know exactly what happened. The few witnesses - race officials - gave accounts in which the shock they felt affected the accuracy of their evidence. With his death there ended, too, the fine Italian style of driving.

That probably tells us more about Ferrari than it does about Musso. It's interesing that he makes no mention of Baghetti or Bandini - maybe because they were still racing at the time of writing.

My reading is that Ferrari puts the accident down to driver error - trying too hard to keep up with Hawthorn

[Barry Boor]

I must admit that I always thought the first turn at Reims was called Gueux - and that Muizon was elsewhere on the circuit.

Also, to quote Hawthorn as 'being involved' is stretching it a bit, isn't it? So Musso was 20 yards behind Hawthorn; how does the accident actually 'involve' Hawthorn, may I ask?

Finally, don't forget that Musso's car hit the infamous drainage ditch that was responsible for several other serious and fatal accidents through the years. A fact that seems not to be mentioned that often.

[Roger Clark]

I understood that there were two factors in Musso's crash. First the Gueux bend, which had been flat the year before was no longer. There had been a lot of racing that weekend and a lot of rubber deposited on the track. Second, he and Hawthorn were lapping slower cars - Gerini and Ruttmann. They may have disturbed Musso's line.

It's interesting that Ferrari says the '58 Ferrari was more powerful than the year before; in general this was not so following the change to Avgas.

It's also interesting that nobody here, and none of his obituaries, have mentioned that Musso did win a championship Grand Prix.

[Kpy]

Absolutely correct, Barry, the fatal accident was not at Muizon, but at Gueux. There is some speculation that Musso caught and touched Hawthorn's car as they lapped the slower car.
A question never anwered.

D-Type - your patience is amazing!

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Roger Clark


It's also interesting that nobody here, and none of his obituaries, have mentioned that Musso did win a championship Grand Prix.

Well, 23 out of 98 laps, with Fangio driving the rest. Is that really a GP win, Roger? Or am I missing something, as usual?

[Ray Bell]

I must say that I feel dismay too...

Three things occur to me... KarlOakie's now-dimmed impatience... D-Type's somewhat harsh remarks and the fact that the discussion has gravitated once again to the crash that killed Musso.

While there is no doubt that there will always be discussion on this point, it isn't the purpose of the thread to dig further into that at all.

It seems very 'pommie' to me that D-Type has come out with the remarks he has. They are not in line, to my way of thinking, with the kind of place TNF has always been.

No, there is no requirement to introduce yourself here... but it's a nice friendly thing to do. No, it is not forbidden to ask difficult questions here... but sometimes patience is going to be required. No, it is not wrong to 'expect' to get an answer... but you'll get more bees with honey etc.

KarlOakie Research, you will come to know this place... and respect it. Someone will, in time, come up with a snippet that will help you piece things together. I think we all know you are not someone participating in one of those Russian quizzes (which is what started the rot here in TNF, the hackles rising when questions came out of the blue), so just keep an eye on your thread and see what happens.

For interest's sake, look at the several threads on the first two pages at the moment that have been resurrected after two, three and four years inactive because someone has come up with something they thought should be included.

That's the kind of place TNF is... and very soon I think you'll have a few comments made about people's opinions of Musso prior to his demise.

Two things stand out to me as unanswered... what was the telegram he received (as introduced by D-Type) and what was his long illness?

[Ray Bell]

Going back to the Motor Racing obit:
His greatest achievement in a Formula 1 event was probably his second place, together with a record lap in the 1957 French Grand Prix at Rouen.....

Now, we all know that there were two truly great drives by Fangio in that 1957 season, the one in which Musso came second in the championship...

Rouen, where he made the 250F sit up and dance for him and staggered the press... and the Nurburgring where he demolished his two British opponents in a demonstration that stands for all time with The Great Drives.

Yet we have here a bit of fact that surely makes us ask, "Who was this Musso?"

Did he really come out of that French GP with the lap record, or was it just that he set a record during the event that was later broken?

Even so, it's generally accepted that the car he was driving was not the finely balanced machine that Fangio had at his disposal, so how is it so?

Was he simply capable of the odd brilliant lap? Was he subject to 'on days' and 'off days'... and if so, how come he won the next week and was again second the race after that?

Also, I see nothing in this thread of how he came up through the ranks. Did he do it in a blaze of glory like Hawthorn in the '53 French GP or did he just work his way there?

Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this...

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


No, there is no requirement to introduce yourself here... but it's a nice friendly thing to do. No, it is not forbidden to ask difficult questions here... but sometimes patience is going to be required. No, it is not wrong to 'expect' to get an answer... but you'll get more bees with honey etc.

Off Topic - but hear hear, very well put Ray.

[Kpy]

Can I say welcome to KarlOakie Research?

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I must say that I feel dismay too...

Three things occur to me... KarlOakie's now-dimmed impatience... D-Type's somewhat harsh remarks and the fact that the discussion has gravitated once again to the crash that killed Musso.

Two things stand out to me as unanswered... what was the telegram he received (as introduced by D-Type) and what was his long illness?

Ray

You are always the kindest of people!!

I hope you can see that we're turning away from the fatal crash, and I really hope that KarlOakie Research stays with us and gives us some of his angles on the sport. Would be nice to know a little more about you, though, KarlOakie Research.

D-Type has a heart of gold and was find enough to dig out Ferrari quotes when he was feeling grumpy - that's Pommie!

This is KarlOakie Research's original post:

I searched but did not find exactly what I was looking, so either I overlooked it or didn't ask the "right" questions. Sorry.

After the Belgian GP -- the fourth or fifth round of the championship according to your inclinations -- the GP championship was being led by Stirling Moss with 17 points, Mike Hawthorn had 14 points, and Luigi Musso had 12 points. And, yet, whenever the 1958 season is discussed Musso's sole contribution to the GP scene seems to be his crash at Reims. Peter Collins had scored only 4 points by that point and Tony Brooks had his 8 from Spa.

Just a matter of the scene being dimmed due of the passage of time? The Anglo-centric nature of the season? Or just the nature of anything that far back being relegated to the "who cares?" pile?

Not sure that Musso could have nipped Hawthorn or Moss for the crown, but he certainly could have been a spoiler. Of course, we will never know, but then again.....

Can we help further, or should he search Italian language sites?

and what Musso's long illness?

[KarlOakie Research]

"Musso was unable to race as he was still suffering from a serious illness that had laid him low before the Mille Miglia." -- Hans Tanner (Ferrari, 1974). Interestingly, unless I have simply missed any reference to it -- which is quite likely, I have not found any contemporary reference to an illness, serious or otherwise, on the part of Musso at this point in 1957. I only did a hasty scan, but nothing seemed to pop out at me. Perhaps he was simply ill, this being a time when there were several flu outbreaks.

[Ray Bell]

I posted about this early on...

See posts numbers 15 and 22... quotes from Motor Racing... the column mentioning testing at Modena and the Mille Miglia report. There was another mention, wasn't there?

[KarlOakie Research]

Tanner seems to be the only person making mention of Musso's illness, first as "Coche" and then repeating it later in his book. Cahier doesn't seem to mention it, neither does Jesse Alexander or any of the others I have tried to check -- and I don't have ready access, at the moment, to the Motor Sports from 1957. Afraid I am not much help on this point.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
"Musso was unable to race as he was still suffering from a serious illness that had laid him low before the Mille Miglia." -- Hans Tanner (Ferrari, 1974). Interestingly, unless I have simply missed any reference to it -- which is quite likely, I have not found any contemporary reference to an illness, serious or otherwise, on the part of Musso at this point in 1957. I only did a hasty scan, but nothing seemed to pop out at me. Perhaps he was simply ill, this being a time when there were several flu outbreaks.

I have the same book. Has anyone another source for this serious illness??

[Ray Bell]

Note that the Mille Miglia report says that Musso was 'very ill again'... indicating that his illness had begun in the quiet season prior to this race.

This might well mean that few knew about it... and indeed, it might have been a very strong strain of flu.

As it appears that Taruffi might well have taken his place in the Ferrari team for the Mille Miglia (how fortuitous!), maybe this has been mentioned in one of the contemporary reports of his win in that race... or even in his book?

[KarlOakie Research]

In the "Looked But Did Not See" category -- Nixon has, "Luigi Musso was suffering from a recurring stomach ailment...." (p. 277) No particulars on what constitued "recurring", but at least something to mull over.

[Ray Bell]

Perhaps this affected his tenacity at Rouen?

I have no idea of the progress at that race... how far Musso was behind Fangio at the end, whether he had to skulk his way past other drivers or if he followed Fangio for a while and then faded... but the fact is, if he took the lap record and was soundly trounced, the illness might well have affected his race fitness.

Can we explore this little tangent?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Kpy


Well, 23 out of 98 laps, with Fangio driving the rest. Is that really a GP win, Roger? Or am I missing something, as usual?

I think it was 27, but your point is still valid. Howevr, I think the only driver Fangio passed was Behra, who had overtaken the Lancia while they were changing drivers. nobody would claim that Musso had a great Grand Prix win, but I think it deserves mention, if only out of curiosity.