23 replies to this topic

[Muzza]

Dear Fellows,

I am having a little trouble to confirm the route of the 1938 Mille Miglia...

- Had that year's event a lay-out similar to its previous editions?
- Was it raced in its traditional counter-clockwise direction?
- This means that the cars would first cross Bologna, then Ferrara and later Padova, right?

(this last question is actually the one I am trying to answer)

Many thanks for your help on this concern,


Muzza

[Ruairidh]

Prof. Lawrence says in his 1988 Mille Miglia book: "For 1938 the organisers made some radical changes to the route. It followed the usual roads as far as Florence but instead of taking the direct route south to Rome it swung out west to Pisa and more or less followed the coast as far as Tarquinia where it swung inland in a curve down to Rome. After Rome it proceeded as before to Foligno but instead of joining the Adriatic coast road at Porto Recanti it went more directly north over the Furio Pass and touched the Adriatic coast at Fano. From Fano on it followed the established pattern".

Route was 1,013 miles

Brescia-Cremona-Piacenza-Parma-Reggio Emilia-Modena-Bolognia-Raticosa Pass-Futa Pass-Florence-Pisa-Livorno-Grosseto-Tarquina-Vetralia-Rome-Terni-Somma Pass-Folognia-Gualdo Tadino-Fano-Rimini-Cesena-Forli-Bologna-Ferrara-Rovigo-Padua-Venezia-Treviso-Venice-Verona-Brescia.

All information from Mike Lawrence: The World's Greatest Motor Competitions The Mille Migilia - Batsford 1988 (and a darn good read, if you can find a copy).

[Milan Fistonic]

Ruairidh's information is confirmed in Lurani's Mille Miglia book.


An attempt at remodelling the Mille Miglia resulted in a much changed itinerary - in fact almost all the southern part in 1938 was new. The most tortuous sections disappered, giving place to long stretches of fast road. Also, for the first time, the race lasted for less than 12 hours. What had been an endurance test now assumed the character of a pure speed event. The classic mountain route to Rome via Florence-Siena-Viterbo gave way to a run down the coast along the main Via Aurelia; and the road from Florence to Pisa included 54 miles of autostrada. From Tarquinia the course rejoined the Via Cassia, as far as Vetralla. There were further changes after Foligno, where the road went straight to the Adriatic, over the Furlo Pass. From Fano to Brescia the route was the same as in 1937, bringing the total length to 1013 miles.

[Muzza]

Many thanks, Ruairidh and Milan, for such prompt and clarifying replies.

[ReWind]

Route maps for all Mille Miglia races from 1927 to 1957 are shown in German book „Mille Miglia - Die legendären tausend Meilen" by Conrad Piepenburg & Erwin Klein.

Alas, I am neither able to post the 1938 map nor would I be allowed to do so for obvious copyright reasons.

What I can tell you is that Mike Lawrence’s list of towns contains a little mistake: Between Treviso and Verona the route touched Vicenza instead of Venice (which would be the same as „Venezia").

And before you ask: There aren’t any details of the exact location of that bloodshed crash in Bologna in this lovely book.

Edited: I just checked the Motorsport Memorial and found out that you already know the exact location.

But Piepenburg states driver Bruzzo and co-driver Mignanego were also killed in the crash.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by ReWind
Venice (which would be the same as „Venezia").

Yep, I wondered about that, but was too lazy to confirm my thinking

[Muzza]

Originally posted by ReWind
[...]
Edited: I just checked the Motorsport Memorial and found out that you already know the exact location.

[...]

Grüezi, Reinhard,

I am compiling a piece about the events of the 1938 Mille Miglia, based on a number of sources (all will be listed at Motorsport Memorial, of course) and particularly a wonderful work of research carried out by our Pier Paolo "pyrytus" Garagnani on these concerns, which will hopefully shed a little light on what happened that sad 03 April 1938. Please bear with me - I will upload the information to the website in a matter of a few hours.

Thanking your continuous interest and support,


Muzza

[Ruairidh]

Mike L's book adds that it was a Lancia Aprilia and the fact that the accident occured on a level crossing.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Muzza


Grüezi, Reinhard,

I am compiling a piece about the events of the 1938 Mille Miglia, based on a number of sources (all will be listed at Motorsport Memorial, of course) and particularly a wonderful work of research carried out by our Pier Paolo "pyrytus" Garagnani on these concerns, which will hopefully shed a little light on what happened that sad 03 April 1938. Please bear with me - I will upload the information to the website in a matter of a few hours.

Thanking your continuous interest and support,


Muzza

I want a copy please!!!


Stu Schaller

[Carlo]

I hope this link works:



Ciao Carlo

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Ruairidh
Brescia-Cremona-Piacenza-Parma-Reggio Emilia-Modena-Bolognia-Raticosa Pass-Futa Pass-Florence-Pisa-Livorno-Grosseto-Tarquina-Vetralia-Rome-Terni-Somma Pass-Folognia-Gualdo Tadino-Fano-Rimini-Cesena-Forli-Bologna-Ferrara-Rovigo-Padua-Venezia-Treviso-Venice-Verona-Brescia.

Looking at the map, I correct a little this list:

Brescia - Cremona - Piacenza - Parma - Reggio Emilia - Modena - Bologna - Passo Raticosa - Passo Futa - Firenze [Florence] - Pisa - Livorno [Leghorn] - Grosseto - Tarquina - Vetralla - Roma [Rome] - Terni - Passo Somma - Foligno - Gualdo Tadino - Fano - Pesaro - Rimini - Cesena - Forli - Bologna - Ferrara - Rovigo - Padova [Padua] - Venezia [Venice] - Treviso - Vicenza - Verona - Brescia.

Ciao,
Guido

[Barry Boor]

May I broaden this thread out slightly, please?

I am currently reading Richard Williams' book on Enzo Ferrari and I have reached 1930, wherein the Mille Miglia, running anti-clockwise, visits not only Venice, but Lake Garda too.

Can anyone supply a map?

I must confess that I missed this thread first time around and it is only in this last couple of days that I realised that...

a) the route ever ran anti-clockwise, and

b) the route varied from the one that Stirling won on.

What an ignorant-ramus I really am!

[Roger Clark]

I don't think it went to Venice in 1930. As noted above, Mike Lawrence's book confuses Venezia with Vicenza, and this may have carried over to Richard Williams.

all the pre-war races ran anti-clockwise.

[gdecarli]

According to www.themille-miglia.co.uk (dead link, at least now), the route from 1927 to 1930 (And even to 1933, acording to another site, I don't recall what one) was the same, as following (anticlockwise) :

Brescia - Montichiari - Asola - Piadena - Casalmaggiore - Parma - Reggio Emilia - Modena - Bologna - Passo della Raticosa (Raticosa Pass) - Passo della Futa (Futa pass) - Firenze (Florence) - Poggibonsi - Siena - Radicofani - Viterbo - Monterosi - Roma (Rome) - Terni - Passo della Somma (Somma pass) - Spoleto - Perugia - Gubbio - Fabriano - Castelraimondo - Tolentino - Macerata - Loreto - Ancona - Senigallia - Fano - Pesaro - Rimini - Cesena - Forlì - Faenza - Imola - Bologna - Ferrara - Rovigo - Padova (Padua) - Noale - Treviso - Feltre - Bassano del Grappa - Vicenza - Verona - Peschiera del Garda - Desenzano del Garda - Brescia

The route changed many times in following years, and I have no details about 1934-1937 editions; as far as I know usually section between Bologna and (Florence) trough Passo della Raticosa and Passo della Futa was run usually North-South (from Bologna to Firenze) before the war and in opposite direction after the war, but in 1949 when this section wasn't used.

As regards Lago di Garda (Garda Lake), all layouts I know, from 1927 to 1957 used the section Brescia - Verona, sometimes as initial section, sometimes as final one and this section goes through Desenzano del Garda and Peschiera del Garda, the two villages at South West and South East corners of the lake.

I'm sorry I have no maps ready, but I think you can easily follow the route on a road atlas.

Ciao,
Guido

(edit: I corrected mistyped Dano, as in my original post; the right name is Fano)

[Ruairidh]

Mike Lawrence has the 1930 route as 1018 miles

Brescia - Montichiari - Asola - Piadena - Casalmaggiore - Parma - Reggio Emilia - Bologna - Raticosa Pass - Futa pass - Florence - Poggibonsi - Siena - Radicofani - Viterbo - Monterosi - Rome - Terni - Somma pass - Spoleto - Perugia - Gubbio - Castelraimondo - Tolentino - Macerata - Loreto - Ancona - Pesaro - Rimini - Forlì -Bologna - Ferrara - Rovigo - Padua - Noale - Treviso - Feltre - Venice - Verona - Brescia[/b]

Mike also lists the 1934-37 routes etc. Guido, let me know if you'd like me to post them (I don't think it is a copyright infringement).

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Ruairidh
Mike Lawrence has the 1930 route as 1018 miles

Brescia - Montichiari - Asola - Piadena - Casalmaggiore - Parma - Reggio Emilia - Bologna - Raticosa Pass - Futa pass - Florence - Poggibonsi - Siena - Radicofani - Viterbo - Monterosi - Rome - Terni - Somma pass - Spoleto - Perugia - Gubbio - Castelraimondo - Tolentino - Macerata - Loreto - Ancona - Pesaro - Rimini - Forlì -Bologna - Ferrara - Rovigo - Padua - Noale - Treviso - Feltre - Venice - Verona - Brescia

Mike also lists the 1934-37 routes etc. Guido, let me know if you'd like me to post them (I don't think it is a copyright infringement). [/B]

But if you look at a map you will see that it's inconceivable that they could have gone from Fetre to Verona via Venice. See my earlier post.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

But if you look at a map you will see that it's inconceivable that they could have gone from Fetre to Verona via Venice. See my earlier post.

Saw your earlier post. And Guido's & ReWind's earlier thoughts. Didn't have time to look at map before posting Mike's 1930 route but think thats a good idea to staighten this out.

[Tim Murray]

According to the Lurani book the route visited Venezia (Venice) only in 1934, '35, '37 and '38. (Mike Lawrence has the route visiting both Venezia AND Venice in '37/'38!). The 1930 route in Lurani is as Guido posted above, except that the town between Senigallia and Pesaro appears as Fano, not Dano.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Ruairidh
Mike also lists the 1934-37 routes etc. Guido, let me know if you'd like me to post them (I don't think it is a copyright infringement).

Yes, please.

Originally posted by Tim Murray
The 1930 route in Lurani is as Guido posted above, except that the town between Senigallia and Pesaro appears as Fano, not Dano.

Of course it's Fano; I mistyped it. I edit my previous post, in order not to spread this mistake.

Ciao,
Guido

[Kvadrat]

I watch Giro d'Italia on Eurosport in our local evenings. Remembering 1957 Mille Miglia video from MFQ and seeing similar landscapes I wonder if bycicle race in some parts goes on the same roads as Mille Miglia used to go.

Here's map of this year's Giro d'Italia: http://www.gazzetta....img/HPplani.jpg

[Kvadrat]

Last weekend, route of next year's Giro d'Italia was unveiled. Here's description... http://www.velonews....les/9154.0.html

... and map itself: http://www.velonews....154.13221.f.jpg

Here's my analysis of which stages of the race should be seen to imagine what Mille Miglia roads looke like.

All Mille Miglia maps can be found at http://www.spazioaut...orsiStorici.htm

1927 - 1930
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/01L.jpg

1931 - 1933
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/02L.jpg

1934 - 1935, 1937
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/03L.jpg

1936
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/04L.jpg

1938
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/05L.jpg

1940
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/06L.jpg

1947 - 1948
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/07L.jpg

1949
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/08L.jpg

1950
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/09L.jpg

1951 - 1952
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/10L.jpg

1953
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/11L.jpg

1954 - 1957
http://www.spazioaut...rcorsiS/12L.jpg


2006 Giro d'Italia

Stage 5 , May 11: Piacenza - Cremona team time trial (38km)
Mille Miglia was in 1934-1938, 1949 in opposite direction in the beginning of the race; 1950-1957 in forward direction.

Stage 6, May 12: Busseto - Forli (223km)
1927-1938, Modena - Bologna, direct; Bologna - Forli, opposite. 1947-1948, 1950-1947, Modena - Bologna, opposite.

Stage 7, May 13: Cesena - Saltara (230km)
Cesena - Santarchangelo di Romagna in opposite in 1927-1938 and directly in 1947-1948 and 1951-1957.

Stage 8, May 14: Civitanova Marche - Maielletta/Passo Lanciano (171km)
Civitanova Marche to turn from main road to mountains before Pescara in 1949 - opposite, 1950-1957 - directly.

Stage 9, May 15: Francavilla al Mare - Termoli (147km)
Stage 10 - May 16: Termoli - Peschici (190km)
Rest Day - May 17
Nothing common to Mille Miglia.

Stage 11, May 18: Pontedera - Pontedera Individual time trial (50km)
Probably little part of the stage which will be on the road from Pisa to Lucca was used in 1938 directly and in 1947-1948 and 1950 in opposite.

Stage 12, May 19: Livorno - Sestri Levante (165km)
Livorno - Pisa, 1938, opposite; Livorno - Pisa, 1947-1948 and 1950, direct; Livorno - Sarzana, 1949, opposite.

Stage 13, May 20: Alessandria - La Thuile, Switzerland (216km)
Stage 14, May 21: Aosta - Domodossola (224km)
Nothing common to Mille Miglia.

Stage 15, May 22: Mergozzo - Brescia (182km)
If cycle race runs thriugh Bergamo it should be the same Mille Miglia's Bergamo - Brescia in 1947-1948.

Stage 16, May 23: Rovato - Trento/Monte Bondone (180km)
Stage 17, May 24: Termeno - Plan de Corones, Austria (158km)
Stage 18, May 25: Sillian - Gemona del Friuli (227km)
Stage 19, May 26: Pordenone - Passo di San Pellegrino (220km)
Stage 20, May 27: Trento - Aprica (212km)
Stage 21, May 28: 1st semi-stage: Canzo - Ghisallo, Individual time trial(11km); 2nd semi-stage: Lecco - Milano (116km)
Nothing common to Mille Miglia.

[Kvadrat]

Giro d'Italia have begun. See it on Eurosport.

[Barry Boor]

I'm confused, Vladimir. The Giro is a bicycle race. Why would you publish the route of it on TNF?

[Kvadrat]

May I'm too naive but it seems to me that I will se some of Mille Miglia roads when cyclists will ride there.