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Henry Ford, History as Bunk


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#1 KarlOakie Research

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 19:16

History is more or less bunk. It’s tradition. We don’t want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker’s damn is the history we make today. Henry Ford


Would it be fair to suggest that this exactly how those within racing view this subject?

Or why motor racing history is literally trivial?

I came across the Ford quotation on a notecard mixed in with the other reference notes for a high school history teacher's workshop presentation I gave some (many) years ago. Many head nods were noted when I used the quote as I recall.

This bit of wisdom from Mr. Ford prompted a question: If tradition is, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant in motor racing, does history really matter to the sport?

An obvious answer would seem to be, "Yes!", but upon further consideration is this really more of a reflection of history (and tradition?) as public relations fodder than of history (and tradition?) as having a value of its own?

The imminent demise of the British GP and the Southern 500 seem to be taken as a matter of course. Did we witness the end of history and not even notice? Or has the realization simply been slow in coming?

Or does it not matter, as Mr. Ford suggests?

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#2 canon1753

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 19:52

Racing History, IMHO is important on three levels.

The first level is the history of the engineers who built the racers. Why did they do what they did? It it kind of like the "history of racing car design." I remember sitting behind someone at the Canadian GP who was bemused that the historic GP cars were "poorly engineered." I suspect that the HGP racers in their days were as advanced as today's F1 rocketships were (without the advantage of cubic dollars of today).

The second level is the history of the races themselves. Who won, why they won and how the race shook itself out. This is important too, to those who cherish the sport and have an understanding of history of the sport. Examples: Spa 1968- the first winged F1 cars. Sanair 1986- first CART pole for the Chevy-Ilmor. The traditions of the Indy 500. These are all important and make our sport what it is. It is also what can tend to get left behind. The 1000Kms of the 'Ring used to be an important race, which Porsche always wanted to win. I don't even know if it still run as a sportscar race. Races with great history have been cast off or downgraded (examples: Targa Florio- gone, USGP at the Glen- gone, Southern 500 not on labor day, not seen as anything but another race).

The third level of important racing history is the story of the drivers. Mario Andretti is still interesting talking about sprintcar races he ran in the 60's. I grew in appreciation for racing by reading Niki Lauda's books on GP racing and about his life with racing. In a sense, the third level tells both about the racing and the engineering.

Is this important? Yes. If racing becomes rootless, it will eventually die. Can-Am died when it had to face the fact that the unlimited formula that made it great could not be reconciled with the economic realities of the early 1970's. F1 can now be rootless when you have the money coming in from the manufacturers, but F1 will be in dire trouble if the cubic money stops flowing in and they realize that all their races are overseas from Europe (and no-one but those on Atlas even cares about F1). NEXTEL Cup will be in the same boat if it continues to shun it's common heritage and breeding ground of the Carolinas. CART/IRL both lost the plot when they split, lessening the talent level and the traditions of American OW racing.

After all that (which sounds like the ramblings of a village idiot) History is not bunk. History ties us to the past while looking forward to a bright future filled with hope.

#3 Vicuna

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 20:36

More than 24 hours have elapsed since this thread was started and I'm only the second post - perhaps TNF really is just wasted your time Research?

#4 TIPO61

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 20:45

Relax Vicuna...Re Effing Lax!

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 20:48

Originally posted by Vicuna
More than 24 hours have elapsed since this thread was started and I'm only the second post - perhaps TNF really is just wasted your time Research?

Err ... are you experiencing some sort of temporal distortion? By my reckoning your post was just one hour twenty minutes in!

And in any case, in my experience, most TNF people in Europe are down the pub on a Friday night, while the East Coast Yanks are only just getting home from work and the Californians are still at work.

Patience, patience ....

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 20:50

It's actually an hour and a half...

And I have to say that's a very hard question to answer. Will the youth of today, those interested in racing, or even absorbed in it, ever become like those of us who were the same at their age and start to enquire (as we did...) into the past?

Only time will tell.

#7 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 21:04

I think there is some hope. At least in Britain: there's a boom in interest in history generally, despite (or perhaps because of) the appallingly bad way it has been taught in recent years.

But like most sporting history, it is seen as ephemeral: much of what is written looks at motor sport in isolation and is (being brutally honest) little more than recycled journalism. A few serious historians work in the field and have related racing history to what was happening in the rest of the world, with varying degrees of success. I'm thinking particularly of the 30s here, with Peter Stevenson's flawed "Driving Forces" and Anthony Blight's superb "French Sports Car Revolution". The latter should be (IMHO) used as the model for all serious racing histories.

#8 Wolf

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 21:05

KOR, a very good question, and one that begs far better answer than I'm capable of providing... But here's the rub- should one not know history, in order to evaluate it's relevance? Certainly, one cannot dismiss it's importance, out of hand- even though progress nowdays certainly seems to treat it scornfuly (under pain of having to reinvent things, rather to unearth them, in technical department)...

#9 Kpy

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 21:14

Originally posted by Vicuna
More than 24 hours have elapsed since this thread was started and I'm only the second post - perhaps TNF really is just wasted your time Research?


Begging your pardon, but you have a slightly odd attidude to time. By my clock it's something like 2 hours, not 24, since this was first posted. It's 23:10 where I live, the beginning of a holiday weekend, and I've just finished work. I'm off to bed now.
I'll think about it in the morning. Enjoy your day.

#10 ensign14

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 21:49

Vicuna's a Kiwi, so it's already next Tuesday there. And it's spring.

If you don't understand your past, you cannot comprehend the future. History DOES matter. Compare the FA Cup with the League Cup. One started in 1872, taken seriously by all; one started in 1961, and many teams don't give a rat's ass. GPWC starts behind the 8 ball because it cannot trace a lineage back to Fangio, let alone back to Thery. Even if you NEVER look back, it's important to have it somewhere.

#11 Vicuna

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 21:52

It's supposed to be spring but it seems to be winter today.

I've had the medication and starting to RE - EFFING - LAX :wave:

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 22:00

Originally posted by ensign14
Vicuna's a Kiwi, so it's already next Tuesday there. And it's spring.

... 1984 :p

(Qantas flight announcement: "We will shortly be landing at Wellington. Please set your watches back twenty years .....)

Originally posted by ensign14
If you don't understand your past, you cannot comprehend the future.

Nor even the present. If you don't know where you've come from how the hell can you know where you are?

Originally posted by ensign14
GPWC starts behind the 8 ball because it cannot trace a lineage back to Fangio, let alone back to Thery. Even if you NEVER look back, it's important to have it somewhere.

You could say the same about CART in 1979, but I don't think anyone would now deny its direct connection to David Bruce-Brown.

#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 23:42

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....much of what is written looks at motor sport in isolation and is (being brutally honest) little more than recycled journalism.....


It's getting harder all the time...

When I wrote some of the stories I did about old circuits from the thirties, I contacted people who raced there... in WA there was about six I spoke to for the Albany story IIRC. I know that two of these are now dead, and I wouldn't be surprised if two others are too.

So history comes down to one man's memory... and then there were none...


When I did the Lobethal story I realised that nobody would ever do this again... so I had to get it all and I had to get it right. I think I spent about $400 on phone calls checking facts for that story, and probably about the same on the Longford story. I remember with Longford somebody mentioned that there'd been a meeting there in 1953 and I spent as much time trying to find out if that was so (or proving it wasn't) as I had on the rest of the research I did.

#14 eldougo

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Posted 30 October 2004 - 00:31

:rolleyes:


quote: KarlOakie Research
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
History is more or less bunk. It’s tradition. We don’t want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker’s damn is the history we make today. Henry Ford

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: Ray Bell

And I have to say that's a very hard question to answer. Will the youth of today, those interested in racing, or even absorbed in it, ever become like those of us who were the same at their age and start to enquire (as we did...) into the past?

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As i see it History will change in the comming generations ,there will allways be young people like TNF,s that will have to question why this and that happened in Motorsport. But it feel that the greater population out there find History does not come onto their radar and they only want to live in the present.The cyber world that is consuming their lives today ,and they will not notice what is going on around them,so History is BUNK to them as Henry once said. :(

#15 McGuire

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Posted 30 October 2004 - 11:56

Speaking of history...historians have long struggled with exactly what Ford meant by that statement. The quote of course comes from his celebrated Chicago Tribune interview in 1916, which eventually led to Ford suing the paper for libel (in a subsequent editorial, it called him "ignorant").

But the man who said "history is more or less bunk" then proceeded to build one of the world's largest private historical museums and the first historical theme park-- an odd mission for one who denies the lessons of history, or lacks any nostalgic impulses. We do know Ford was extremely skeptical of recieved knowledge of all kinds. If Ford had relied on past practice for his manufacturing solutions, the Model T Ford would never have happened. Another of his adages: "At some point it becomes necessary to dispense with the services of experts."

#16 Barry Lake

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Posted 30 October 2004 - 13:56

Originally posted by McGuire
Speaking of history...historians have long struggled with exactly what Ford meant by that statement. The quote of course comes from his celebrated Chicago Tribune interview in 1916, which eventually led to Ford suing the paper for libel (in a subsequent editorial, it called him "ignorant").

But the man who said "history is more or less bunk" then proceeded to build one of the world's largest private historical museums and the first historical theme park-- an odd mission for one who denies the lessons of history, or lacks any nostalgic impulses. We do know Ford was extremely skeptical of recieved knowledge of all kinds. If Ford had relied on past practice for his manufacturing solutions, the Model T Ford would never have happened. Another of his adages: "At some point it becomes necessary to dispense with the services of experts."



McGuire, you beat me to the punch in posting about the incongruity of that quote when related to the exceptional sense of history Henry Ford had. How amazing that he cared enough to save the homes of famous people, and their school houses, etc. Also amazing that his museum has huge collections of things that most people toss on the rubbish heap, like toasters, washing machines, refrigerators, irons and much more.

And what about all the Ford company records that were retained?

That wasn't the work of someone who regarded history as bunk. I always have regarded that quote as one of the most inappropriate in history.

I have to disagree, however, with your statement beginning, "If Ford had relied on past practice..."

This, I believe, is an example of Ford's ability to create his own history when it came to himself, Henry Ford the Legend. He didn't invent the assembly line, it previously had been in use in other industries, most notably, I believe, in small arms manufacture.

However, he did adapt it to his purposes and he did, as he had promised, bring motoring to the masses - maybe not to everybody, but to a lot more than otherwise would have been the case at the time.

Mind you, an efficient public transport system might have been a better solution. But then where would we motoring and motor sport enthusiasts be?

A better quote, relative to history, I believe, is:

"Those who ignore history are condemned to relive it."

How many times do we see people failing at something because they hadn't studied history (or listened to their elders) and therefore repeated the mistakes of many who have gone before?

I have seen this quote credited to more than one person (probably the original, plus numerous people who repeated it without also quoting the original source).

I thought the original was one of the early philosophers. Does anyone know?

#17 Arthur Anderson

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Posted 30 October 2004 - 14:44

Originally posted by McGuire
Speaking of history...historians have long struggled with exactly what Ford meant by that statement. The quote of course comes from his celebrated Chicago Tribune interview in 1916, which eventually led to Ford suing the paper for libel (in a subsequent editorial, it called him "ignorant").

But the man who said "history is more or less bunk" then proceeded to build one of the world's largest private historical museums and the first historical theme park-- an odd mission for one who denies the lessons of history, or lacks any nostalgic impulses. We do know Ford was extremely skeptical of recieved knowledge of all kinds. If Ford had relied on past practice for his manufacturing solutions, the Model T Ford would never have happened. Another of his adages: "At some point it becomes necessary to dispense with the services of experts."


The phrase quoted (as written here) "....not worth a tinker's damn" is incorrectly written, by someone. It should be "tinker's dam", as a tinker in 19th Century America was sort of a handyman, and among the things he did was to repair plumbing. A tinker's dam is a bit of clay or other substance, used to prevent molten lead from flowing where he didn't want it to flow--made from the most base of material--but that's not the real issue at hand.

I'd like to see and read the entire context of this often-printed quote, as Henry Ford was certainly a man with tremendous historical interests.

There are two well-worn 7-word phrases that we all hear regularly (the wording might change according to the speaker, but the message is the same): "It has never been done this way" and "We have never done it that way". Both statements are rooted in resistance to change (something that Ford detested in his most creative, active years, but gradually fell into as he grew to be an old man).

In Henry Ford's day, the automobile was already the subject (and often the victim) of being over-studied, over-designed, "engineered" to death (in a figurative sort of way). All the famed cartoonist Rube Goldberg had to do (perhaps he did?) to come up with some of the crazy cartoons he drew of outlandish mechanical devices would have been to simply look at some of the tremendously complicated mechanisms in many engines--look at some of the valve trains that were proposed, for example.

Ford, in his famous quest for a simple, rugged, and low priced car was, by all accounts, obsessed by simplicity, as he was in his personal life (again by most accounts). One has only to look at not only the Model T, but the Model A and his flathead V8 to see this. Features such as the T's planetary transmission, thermo-syphon cooling system are strong evidence of his passion for simplicity--a transmission that was operated by three simple pedals, augmented by one simple combination "neutral gear/parking brake lever" was very simple for anyone to operate, especially in the day of often difficult-to-use sliding gear "crash-box" transmissions on competing cars (not to mention that most all those cars were considered impossible for the supposedly genteel women of the day to master!). It went forward even further with the Model A, when Ford insisted that there be no mechanical valve adjustment--just do a touch of grinding on the foot of the valve stem to get the valves to seat properly, with very little lash, and they'd work perfectly--and when done right, a Model A Ford -- even a flathead V8 -- has absolutely silent valve actuation!); or the famed story of the Model A's Zenith carburetor. When first presented to Henry, Zenith had come up with a carburetor having just two bolts holding the entire unit together. "That's too many bolts" Ford is alleged to have said. "Make it with just one bolt!" It was, and again, in the antique car circles, the Model A Ford Zenith carburetor ranks as the easiest carburetor to strip down, clean, rebuild, AND adjust for optimum performance. While of course, the foundry processes for the flathead V8 were complex, and early on, dauntingly so, ultimately the absolute simplicity of an en-bloc cast V8 engine block was achieved, and profitably so (while others had already done so, Ford achieved the first true success, as Ford's methods of casting were ultimately adopted across the industry, and for decades afterward, enbloc-cast V8 engines ruled the automotive world)

Most of Ford's obsession with simplicity manifested itself with production. Where so many manufacturers struggled with old-fashioned production systems, rapidly outdated "historical" ways of doing things, Ford did look forward--hence the moving assembly line--begun first with the lowly flywheel/magneto on the Model T, and then advancing to a complete factory--built around moving assembly line conveyor systems. Most people only see, or hear "You can have any color so long as it is black" (which quote cannot be ascribed to Henry Ford, BTW, but rather the press), but again, that was for simplicity--black japan enamel was the quickest to apply, and the quickest to dry, in an age when painting a car body took literally days to accomplish, and upwards of a month or more to dry enough to allow completion of assembly.

From all of this, it becomes rather easy to understand some of Ford's seeming contempt for "history". Too many of his contemporaries cited "history" seemingly to justify why something couldn't be done, or shouldn't be attempted. However, Henry Ford, by most accounts, absolutely understood the history of events and technologies that got him to the place where he could, once he had the money, and the power, to move forward to that "next level". In his business of mass-producing cars, and in his often failed ventures into the world of politics and social commentary, he was often ridiculed for some of his stands. But the fact remains, Henry Ford stood, for several decades, as a man with one foot in the past (history) and one foot in the future (one can argue, successfully I believe, that most of what Ford achieved could not have been possible for anyone whose ideas and philosophies were rooted firmly in the past). And, we are all the richer for that today.

Art Anderson

#18 bira

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Posted 30 October 2004 - 15:31

Ford changed a lot in time. When he gave the interview to the Chicago Tribune, I actually believe he thought history was nonsense primarily because he knew none. The CT called him, as mentioned, ignorant in a follow-up editorial and he sued them - and got thoroughly humiliated in his testimony. He was put to ridicule by not knowing the answer to the simplest questions and getting famous dates and names totally wrong.

A decade later he has changed a lot. Matured, maybe, but he began taking interest and appreciation for history - I always liked to think that it's because he realized he himself was making history and began to appreciate the need to preserve it for generations to come. But that's just my romantic version of it :)

#19 brooster51

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Posted 30 October 2004 - 16:23

Originally posted by canon1753
Racing History, IMHO is important on three levels.

. . .

After all that (which sounds like the ramblings of a village idiot) History is not bunk. History ties us to the past while looking forward to a bright future filled with hope.


I appreciate and agree with your analysis. History is not bunk at all. I personally like to contrast what was at some point and what is today. Maybe it's because I've been interested in racing since the early 60's, that I can't conceive of looking at racing today in isolation. Without a good sense of history, drivers like Pedro Rodriquez and Jo Siffert could be lost in the consideration of 'greats' since their performance in F1 may not stand out in statistical comparison to their contemporaries. But when you look at their performance in the 917K with Gulf Wyer at Spa, the Nurburgring, etc. they then begin to standout. Without a historical sense, a Jacky Ickx may look like a driver with early promise who ended up in the F1 hinterlands but when looking at sportscars again he is up there with greats. I can't conceive of motor racing with out a sense of history. I admit that much of my dissatisfaction with the current state of F1 based on my perception of what F1 was like in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 October 2004 - 19:20

Originally posted.....
.....This, I believe, is an example of Ford's ability to create his own history when it came to himself, Henry Ford the Legend. He didn't invent the assembly line, it previously had been in use in other industries, most notably, I believe, in small arms manufacture.....


What I know on this topic is solely from what I have read...

The application of the (mass production) assembly line, according to what I have read, was first credited to Buick. Though it can't have been very long before Ford's assembly line.

Ford, on the other hand, was said to have applied mass production principles to making watches in the 1880s... was this the first application?

#21 Arthur Anderson

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Posted 30 October 2004 - 23:56

Originally posted by Ray Bell


What I know on this topic is solely from what I have read...

The application of the (mass production) assembly line, according to what I have read, was first credited to Buick. Though it can't have been very long before Ford's assembly line.

Ford, on the other hand, was said to have applied mass production principles to making watches in the 1880s... was this the first application?


The basics of assembly line production, of course, do go back to one Eli Whitney, who is credited with pioneering the idea of interchangeable parts for the mass production of firearms for the military. Buick, among others, did use many mass-production techniques and principles certainly by 1910.

However, it was Ford Motor Company which created the first conveyor-driven assembly line in the auto industry, by breaking down each component of the car into its most basic assembly operations, and then assigning each operation to a worker or workers, along that conveyor. I believe Ford drew his inspiration for this from the meat packing industry, which began using overhead conveyors in the reducing of livestock carcasses to the various cuts of meat we still see today. Ford's Highland Park Assembly Plant was the first automobile factory to be designed and built around the conveyor assembly line, parts of which are exhibited today in the Henry Ford Museum.

While Henry Ford had a fascination with watches and clocks, by legend from boyhood (in fact becoming, and remaining a licensed watchmaker for the rest of his life) that appears to have been mostly a pastime, rather than a serious occupation. The mass-assembly of timepieces was, I believe, already underway in the 1880's, but it wasn't quite assembly-line in nature, but rather station-assembly, where individual watchmakers did the work of assembling the works.

Ford's first real remunerative fascination with machinery was the steam engine, and he was employed as the chief engineer for Detroit' Edison Electric company when he built his first car, the 1896 Quadricycle. Thomas Edison is said to have encouraged Ford to continue his development of a motorcar in those early years, but at any rate, Henry Ford looked to Edison as not only a mentor, but as a close friend to the end of Edison's life in 1932.

As for Henry Ford and "history", Ford can be described I think, as the penultimate collector of historical artifacts, seemingly leaving the academic study of history to others--academics seem not to have been his forte'. While many museums around the world focus on the significant, or things of singular historical interest, Ford's passion was more to tracing the history of technology as he knew and understood it, by amassing a string of artifacts by which the viewer could trace development. And, they weren't all automotive!

For example, over the years, beginning with Henry, the Ford Museum collected what perhaps is the most complete set of home-heating devices, beginning with the simple fireplace, through the Pennsylvania (Franklin) stove, the various wood or coal "pot-belly" stoves and base burners, several ornate heating furnaces from medieval European palaces, through the beginnings of modern central heating systems, all the way to the current high-efficency furnace. In short, the lineage of this human necessity for warmth in winter (along with the cooking of food, by the way--cooking pots and kitchen ranges are displayed as well) can be seen in several hundred feet of aisles.

With the automobile, Ford presented, of course, the lineage of the Ford car, for decades displayed in "angle-parked" rows in the museum, but this has given way to much more interpretative diorama exhibits. While occasional controversy arises over the possession by HFM and The Edison Institute of many of the historic buildings in Greenfield Village, the fact remains that many if not most!) of this historic structures would either have deteriorated into nothingness or worse, would have been demolished, in the rapid development of US cities and towns in the first half of the 20th Century. There really was no preservationist movement as such in his lifetime. Ford did, however, inspire first Philadelphia, and then the Federal Government, to preserve Independence Hall, when it became known that Ford was seriously trying to buy that building (then privately owned, and quite dilapidated), as the centerpiece for the Edison Institute. Once the serious interest arose in Philadelphia for the preservation and restoration of that building, the very "birthplace" of the United States, Ford settled on reproducing the facade of Independence Hall, which shares the distinction of being one of only two reproduction buildings in all of the complex (the other being the 1/2 size reproduction of the first Ford Motor Company factory, the Mack Avenue Plant, where the first production Fords were built.

Ford wasn't the first person to create such an outdoor museum though--his inspiration was none other than John D. Rockefeller, who spearheaded the preservation, restoration and re-creation of Colonial Williamsburg, Virginia, and left a separate foundation for the reconstruction of Salem Illinois, where Abraham Lincoln began his career as a lawyer.

Ford was no great shakes as a historian, and by his speaking does seem to have "dissed" historians. However, he was very much fascinated by history, but history as he could understand it, through the artifacts and exhibits he amassed over the last 25-30 years of his life--and anyone who has had the opportunity to visit Dearborn, Michigan, and has strolled through the HF Museum and Greenfield Village has been enriched by that experience.

Art Anderson

#22 McGuire

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 04:25

Originally posted by Barry Lake
A better quote, relative to history, I believe, is:

"Those who ignore history are condemned to relive it."

How many times do we see people failing at something because they hadn't studied history (or listened to their elders) and therefore repeated the mistakes of many who have gone before?

I have seen this quote credited to more than one person (probably the original, plus numerous people who repeated it without also quoting the original source).

I thought the original was one of the early philosophers. Does anyone know?



The precise quotation is: "Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to relive it." It comes from a Harvard philosophy professor named George Santayana, in a rambling five-volume treatise called The Life of Reason (1905). At Harvard he worked alongside William James and Josiah Royce, who had a great deal of afffection for him despite his eccentricities. The often-quoted passage (rather too often) is found nearly at the end of the final chapter of the first volume, Reason in Common Sense. In modern philosophy his work is considered Thomist claptrap, at least to the few who still bother to read him, but personally I find it charmingly avuncular, and beautifully written.

At any rate, Santayana's quote is certainly far more well known today than he is. And just as with the Ford quotation, very few understand what the hell Santayana was talking about. Ironically, both were born in 1863: Santayana in Madrid, Ford in rural pioneer Michigan. While one was a Catholic and a fatalist, the other a Protestant and a progressive, clearly both were 19th century men who found themselves stuck in the 20th. When Santayana wrote those words in 1905, it wasn't an admonition so much as a flat statement of one of the facts of our existence. Whatever we can learn will be slow, painful, and incremental at best. And by the end of his life, deeply scarred yet totally unsurprised by the horror of two world wars in his lifetime, Santayana was utterly convinced that we cannot remember the past; we are doomed to relive it.

Henry Ford didn't believe that when he said, "history is more or less bunk." That's how revolutionaries talk, in their revolutionary phase. Ford was a subversive by birth, a Protestant and a pacifist down to his rural American pioneer roots. He believed men could learn from their mistakes and improve their basic state, that we could simply do better than senseless wars if we only made an effort. That's what the incredibly naive and humiliating Peace Ship debacle was all about (and the Chicago Tribune's interest in him in 1916). Santayana knew better than that, and soon Ford would too.

#23 McGuire

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 13:19

In the age of mass production, one man could change the world with the power of a single idea, endlessly executed. Henry Ford was by no means the first to imagine a practical, low-priced car for the masses, but he was the first to deliver one.

Many of the other ideas which made the Model T possible, like the moving assembly line, interchangeable parts, horizontal integration, and the five-dollar day, to name a few, weren’t Ford's ideas to begin with either. Each was tried at least once somewhere, with varying degrees of success. But Ford made them his own, by being the first to put them all altogether and make them work on a global scale. At the height of his celebrity, Ford was even credited with the invention of the automobile itself. Which was patently absurd, of course, but people believed it all the same. Why? Ford created the car that changed their lives.

Ford has consistently confounded his critics this way, somehow collecting the credit for inventions not nearly his own. In that he shared much with his hero and mentor, Thomas Edison. To hear his detractors tell it, Edison never had an original idea either. In the incandescent lamp, Edison “stole” an invention – an unworkable, discarded one – and made it work when no one else could, or cared to. As everyone knows, Edison said “Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.” If the inspiration belonged to someone else, so be it.

The same for Ford: Most of the company's innovations were not his but those of the people he assembled. Joe Galamb developed the low-tension flywheel magneto; Wills was the metallurgist; Sorenson designed the rolling assembly line. Ford got the credit, rightly so, for harnessing all these ideas and directing them at his singular and persistent vision.

#24 Barry Lake

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 14:02

What an entertaining and educational thread this has become. :clap:

I don't have the time to refresh my memory on the details right now - if I started into my pile of books relevant to the subject, I might never emerge. However, I will put forward two thoughts on which our learned colleagues might wish to expand.

First, I believe that the "Curved Dash" Oldsmobile probably was the first car to bring motoring further down the food chain than the wealthy customers at whom most cars of the era were aimed. And this was eight years before the Model T Ford first appeared.

Interesting, too, that the Curved Dash Oldsmobile's ultimate demise, as I remember reading it, was due to R E Olds' reluctance to develop or replace it, thus it was overtaken by rivals as time went on. This reluctance to move on was also the undoing of Karl Benz and his early car and, ultimately, of Henry's Model T (though almost two decades after its introduction). It was Henry's reluctance to replace the T, then "too little, to late" with the Model A (although I also love and respect this car for its simplicity) that allowed GM's Chevrolet to take the sales lead it was to hold for many years.

Second, wasn't Leland's Cadillac, the first car to have components machined to strict measurements that made them interchangeable from car to car, rather than hand made to fit each individual car, an important stepping stone towards mass production?

Without this level of engineering, surely the moving assembly line would have been useless.

#25 McGuire

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 22:32

Originally posted by Barry Lake
First, I believe that the "Curved Dash" Oldsmobile probably was the first car to bring motoring further down the food chain than the wealthy customers at whom most cars of the era were aimed. And this was eight years before the Model T Ford first appeared.

Interesting, too, that the Curved Dash Oldsmobile's ultimate demise, as I remember reading it, was due to R E Olds' reluctance to develop or replace it, thus it was overtaken by rivals as time went on. This reluctance to move on was also the undoing of Karl Benz and his early car and, ultimately, of Henry's Model T (though almost two decades after its introduction). It was Henry's reluctance to replace the T, then "too little, to late" with the Model A (although I also love and respect this car for its simplicity) that allowed GM's Chevrolet to take the sales lead it was to hold for many years.


Quite right on all counts. The Olds did come first as a "high-volume, low-priced" car, but Olds never took it to the next level -- unlike Ford, who relentlessly increased production, lowered costs, reduced prices. But eventually he too was trapped by the Model T's success. Henry Ford was already 45 years old when the Model T was introduced in 1908, and its unprecedented sales volume carried him nearly into old age. It has been said that a man is entitled to one truly great idea in a lifetime. If so, Ford certainly had his.

I agree with you about the Model A too. Lovely car with true personality, but if we are honest we have to admit it was not what Ford needed to compete with Chevrolet and Plymouth. Nor was the Model A up to the company's engineering potential. By then Ford had become a bitter reactionary, refusing to listen to the capable people around him, sabotaging their efforts with cruel and juvenile power plays, including even his own son Edsel. Ford dragged his feet until the T was far beyond obsolete, then rushed the Model A through development and into production. The Model A could have been far more.

#26 D-Type

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 22:59

Totally OT - Talking of the Model A, is it true that one spanner fitted every nut on the car? Or is it a load of bunk?

Back on thread, I have always understood that the full context of Henry Ford's speech clarifies that what he meant was "History, as it is taught in our schools, is a load of bunk. As a 'doer' he clearly had little respect for those who wrote and talked about what others had done.

In a motor racing context, the history of the sport does matter to some. Not in the sense of the statistical record, but in the sense of tradition. If you were to ask a manufacturer what race he really wanted to win, I'm sure the answer would be either Le Mans, Indianapolis, Monaco GP or, maybe, Daytona 500; an Australian might add Bathurst. But, these are all races with a history or a tradition. However, you were to ask any racer, whether driver or racing car entrant, the answer would most likely be "The next one"

Different shaped brains...

#27 KarlOakie Research

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 18:04

Might it be said that history, on the whole, as considered within the area of motor sports is "bunk"? The bulk of it as presented and used is certainly trivial, but then again this is a characteristic it shares with sports history in general, not simply the motor sports genre.

Even in a field as well-plowed as "formula one', the furrows tend to be narrow, pretty shallow and rarely deviate from canned approaches to the subject matter. Naturally, there are always exceptions, but they are few and far between. A reading of the volumes of A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing covering the period in which 'formula one' has come to dominate the attention of many raises no end of questions, few of which are answered there or elsewhere in any depth "on the record". Indeed, that has been one of the strengths of this forum and the articles at 8W. There is no companion series of "Gray Books" to complement The Black Books and provide a more complete story (which is all history really is when you boil it down to the essentials) about such matters as the Paris Agreement or the London Commission or whatever else there might be that lurks beneath the surface. There is more to motor sports history than the statistics, but it is a challenge to prove that given that the overwhelming focus of attention is trivia or similar questions of that sort.

There are many excellent works in the field of motor racing history, but these are generally counterbalanced and vastly outnumbered by those works whose value is minimal at best. This is really no different than any other field of history, but one wishes that it could be different. That, however, filies in the face of certain realities, most economic. Few would buy "The Gray Books" to begin with and they would certainly be expensive to produce, so it is already veering off into the niche market versus something more mainstream.

A final comment: a excellent example of how good motor sport history can really be, I suggest Doug Nye's work on the Cooper team. There are other equally worthy examples by both Nye and others, but this particular book seems to be one which would be right at home on the same bookshelf with any other excellent history book. One only wishes that someday the "stuff that got left out" ight find its way between the covers.

As for Ford, his quotation, as was that of Santayana, was examined at some length and as it was placed into a context which was then expanded and developed came to be somewhat different than what was originally in the handout. As for the Santayana quotation, I have an urge to strangle folks whenever I see or hear it tossed about since it is, as was pointed out, always taken out of its intended context. Plus, since history is not something which is not capable of being replicated, the quote really doesn't help us very much. Generally, historians grit their teeth and use Santayana when hustling to keep butts in the seats in their classes. Mea culpa on that, although I was both dismayed that it works and that is all that most recall..... Such is life.

#28 Magee

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 23:38

Reading this enlightened thread has got me thinking about the study of motor sport.
Is there a university in the world with a chair devoted to motor sport history? If so, where is it and if not, why not?

#29 Arthur Anderson

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 02:18

Originally posted by D-Type
Totally OT - Talking of the Model A, is it true that one spanner fitted every nut on the car? Or is it a load of bunk?


Different shaped brains...


Not quite, but not totally bunk either.

For a US-built Model A Ford, it takes a 1/2", 9/16" and a sparkplug (1-1/8") wrench for all the engine and driveline work, along with a 1/4" flat blade screwdriver for rebuilding the carburetor and setting the points. (the lug wrench for the wheels was actually the handle of the hand-crank).
All carburetor adjustments are handled from the dashboard, believe it or not, as the hand-choke rod and knob are rotated for adjusting the fuel mixture.

For body or trim work, a 1/8" flat blade screwdriver, for removing or tightening the various trim screws.

Art

#30 Arthur Anderson

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 03:05

Originally posted by McGuire



I agree with you about the Model A too. Lovely car with true personality, but if we are honest we have to admit it was not what Ford needed to compete with Chevrolet and Plymouth. Nor was the Model A up to the company's engineering potential. By then Ford had become a bitter reactionary, refusing to listen to the capable people around him, sabotaging their efforts with cruel and juvenile power plays, including even his own son Edsel. Ford dragged his feet until the T was far beyond obsolete, then rushed the Model A through development and into production. The Model A could have been far more.


McGuire,

However, and I believe most importantly, the Model A was a major achievement for Ford, reliant as Henry Ford was on self-trained, as opposed to degreed engineers.

In the development of the A, Ford is pretty well chronicled to have insisted on it's being an up-to-date car, but with still the almost brutal simplicity of the T, but also one of rugged constitution. In all three areas, I believe that Ford succeeded magnificently.

The Model A was right in step with the time it was introduced, albeit not really cutting any new territory. It was lightweight (my 1929 Tudor Sedan, fully restored, tipped the scale at just about 2,100 lbs, but coupled with the very torquey 200.5cid engine, and properly driven, they would "skin the pants" off most contemporary cars of the day. Tough and durable, they were; otherwise fully half of the approximately 5,000,000 Model A Fords would not have been still registered, licensed cars as late as 1960. Brutally simple? You bet! Unless one needed serious machine-shop work done on the engine (new rings, bearings, for example) nothing about maintaining a Model A was out of the realm of the owner-driver--those were, and still are, very user-friendly cars. Reliability was (and still is, if the restored A is properly cared for AND the owner is willing to do just a little bit of learning!) not something from the advertising department, it was, and is still, a fact of life with the A. Even a tuneup on an A is simple! A half-inch crescent wrench, a screwdriver, and two feeler gauges (.025" for gapping the points, .035" for the plug gap)and the ability to turn the crankshaft until #1 piston is at top dead center (as indicated by being able to drop the timing bolt into a depression in the camshaft gear!) is all that is needed, a complete tuning of the A engine requiring no more than perhaps 30 minutes. Valve job? Remove the head, re-lap the valves by hand, literally, then remove the valves, and lightly grind down the mushroom shape at the bottom until the valves seat with .005" clearance against the tappet--nothing could have been simpler, nor more reliable--in fact this basic setup remained almost all the way through the flathead V8 era--and Fords were noted for their very quite valves.

Poor Edsel Ford, of course, did seem to get the "short end" around his father, but then that's really not hard to understand. Edsel grew up in a household that became steadily, and rapidly more affluent in his formative years. Henry had, by the time he engineered the largest single leveraged buyout of his day (and for decades thereafter) become quite the autocrat, the "emperor" of Ford Motor Company. Edsel Ford, on the other hand, was appointed, by his Father, to be the "President" of Ford Motor Company at the ripe old age of 19--he'd never had to go through the "school of hard knocks" from which his father graduated. Edsel was, however, given the responsibility of managing Lincoln, upon his father's buyout of Henry and Wilfred Leland's fast-failing luxury car enterprise. In his role at Lincoln, Edsel developed a considerable sense of style, of design, as witnessed by the many beautiful Lincolns created under him (even though Lincoln Motor Car Division of Ford never made a nickel of profit until the epochal year 1961). In fact, it was Edsel Ford who gave the Model A (and every successor to the A out through 1942, along with Lincoln and Mercury!) its timeless good looks.

Interestingly enough, though, is the role that most historians give Henry Ford in the development of the Model A: That of consumer advocate. For example, after riding in, perhaps even driving a prototype A, Ford's cryptic written memo: "Rides too hard (bouncy perhaps?), put on shock absorbers" (thus the Model A became the first low-priced car in the US to feature double-acting hydraulic shock absorbers). After two of his engineers were critically injured in a head-on crash in a Model A prototype, when they were thrust through the plate glass windshield (plate glass was almost universal in cars of the day), he demanded that laminated safety glass be used in that part of the car (side and rear glass remained plate glass for several more years, and likely had he specified safety glass all around, no glass company could have met the production requirements--laminated safety glass being very, very new in 1927). Ford seems to have really understood the likely customers for his car. He retained the transverse spring layout, simply because it worked far better on a light car than anything else--and Ford seems to have understood that while city streets may well have been paved to billiard-table smoothness (well at least in comparison to what they might have been 10-15 years earlier, once out of the city, it was very much pot-luck (and ruts and potholes). And with the positive axle location provided by transverse springs and wishbone radius rods, the Model A front axle retains it's caster angle quite well, and as strong as that axle was, the camber was pretty solid as well--one almost never hears of "shimmy" (the rapid bouncing up and down, almost uncontrollably, of each front wheel on a beam axle) with a Model A--I never did, and I drove 3 different Model A Fords 1964-1970, a total of perhaps 35,000 miles).

While often castigated by rather unknowledgeable "safety experts", the cowl-mounted Model A gas tank was, in retrospect, far safer than most other cars (in fact, millions of VW Beetles had their gas tanks mounted in relatively the same position!). Nearly every other car, until the advent of the mechanical fuel pump, relied on manifold vacuum to draw fuel from a rear-mounted tank to a fairly substantial reservoir on the firewall--and many fires resulted from that setup, yet as of 1960 (the last year for which I ever had any information), no explosions, fires, or even injuries were ever ascribed to a burst Model A gas tank. Even in the worst of head-on collisions, the engine would be rammed UNDERNEATH the fuel tank.

However, if there was a failing with the Model A, it was that Ford never really thought it would be necessary to replace it, until it was almost too late (reprise of his experience with the Model T). So, when he did (with the Model 18--1932 V8), it was another case of crash-program engineering.

Art Anderson

#31 McGuire

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 09:26

Originally posted by D-Type
Back on thread, I have always understood that the full context of Henry Ford's speech clarifies that what he meant was "History, as it is taught in our schools, is a load of bunk. As a 'doer' he clearly had little respect for those who wrote and talked about what others had done.


It is pretty safe to say that was Ford's view of historians, and academic authorities in general. However, they are not the focus of his famous 1916 quote. Here he refers to History with a capital H, not what historians do.

You will also note the quote contains a rather blatant logical contradiction. "History is more or less bunk. It’s tradition. We don’t want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker’s dam is the history we make today." However: If history is of no consequence, why does he intend to make some today?

Ford is simply saying that we are not predestined; it is fully in our power to change the course of history. Our fate lies in our hands, not in the gods or some preordained Hegelian path. Believe it or not, that was not exactly an othodox view in 1916. The general belief then was that one needed the approval of providence to accomplish that feat. In this regard Ford was a modernist, when many of the major figures of the 20th century were not -- Hitler and Lenin, for example.

#32 McGuire

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 12:30

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson
However, if there was a failing with the Model A, it was that Ford never really thought it would be necessary to replace it, until it was almost too late (reprise of his experience with the Model T). So, when he did (with the Model 18--1932 V8), it was another case of crash-program engineering.

Art Anderson



For all its simple attributes and charms, the Model A was a barely competitive product when it was introduced in 1928, and clearly obsolete by 1931. The new car failed to snatch sales leadership from Chevrolet, so we have to admit it failed in its intended mission.

One more way the Model A, at least as executed, was an old, bad idea: like the Model T, the Model A also represented Ford's stubborn, hopelessly outdated philosphy of one make and model for the entire market. Meanwhile, under Alfred Sloan's vision of "a car for every purse and purpose," General Motors continued to gobble up market share.

#33 McGuire

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 13:00

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
As for Ford, his quotation, as was that of Santayana, was examined at some length and as it was placed into a context which was then expanded and developed came to be somewhat different than what was originally in the handout.


Then I apologize for assisting in the hijacking of your thread. Trying to get back to your point, I don't believe motor racing neglects tradition at all. In many ways the entire sport runs on historical inertia. It has long outlived its only presumed practical purpose, as a testing ground for road cars, yet each year the grids form up once again.

I see tradition run rampant over every form of racing. For example: from an engineeering perspective, there is no reason on earth for an F1 car to have exposed wheels and an open cockpit. The cars would be considerably faster and infinitely safer were these features eliminated. Yet we persist with them. Why? Without them we no longer have grand prix racing as we understand it.

#34 Arthur Anderson

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 00:30

Originally posted by McGuire



For all its simple attributes and charms, the Model A was a barely competitive product when it was introduced in 1928, and clearly obsolete by 1931. The new car failed to snatch sales leadership from Chevrolet, so we have to admit it failed in its intended mission.

One more way the Model A, at least as executed, was an old, bad idea: like the Model T, the Model A also represented Ford's stubborn, hopelessly outdated philosphy of one make and model for the entire market. Meanwhile, under Alfred Sloan's vision of "a car for every purse and purpose," General Motors continued to gobble up market share.


Excuse me? Now, of course, Chevrolet did outsell Ford in both 1927 (Ford produced no cars in the US from early June until December--Chevrolet won by default only), and it took until late spring for Ford to "ramp up" production to anything like their capacity (Chevrolet wins by default again). However, Ford outsold Chevrolet in 1929 by a very respectable margin, outsold Chevrolet in 1930, and again in 1931--but not by enough to keep Henry Ford happy.

Chevrolet also loses out in the area of durability through all the years of the Model A--just try to find any large gathering of Chevrolets today that were built in the years 1928-31--they are as scarce today as Model A's are plentiful. Perhaps the major cause of this was the very poor resale (trade-in) value of that era of Chevrolet--anywhere from 30% to 50% less than a Ford of the same years (and that can be documented by any search of old newspaper advertising by dealers for used cars). Chevrolet was notorious (and a well-earned reputation, I might add) for broken rear axles--seeing as how Chevy continued with far out-moded live rear axles (the axle shaft itself carrying the entire weight of the rear of the car--Ford went to 3/4 floating rear axles in 1928, wherein the axle housing, NOT the shaft itself, carried the weight--one just never hears of a Model A Ford breaking a rear axle). Chevrolet's OHV engine (for all the value of overhead valves--after all, Chevrolet and Buick rank first in never producing a flathead -- or side-valve engine) for most owners, required a trip to a garage or dealership for the frequent valve train adjustments needed, while a Model A Ford kept on, soldiering on. And, most telling was the body construction (and the body, more than anything else, determined the resale value of an automobile then as now--due to rust, corrosion, and back then, the deterioration of any structural wood. And, while Ford moved to as much steel construction as was possible in those days (Ford produced only a small portion of their bodies in the Model A era, primarily the roadster, touring car, coupe and 2-door sedan--all of which use little or no structural wood beyond roof bows), Chevrolet in so many ways was a wooden wonder--Fisher by then being General Motors inhouse body division, was rooted in wood-framed composite bodies--where a Ford coupe/roadster trunk-seat lid was a two-piece steel stamping, Chevrolet was using no less than a dozen pieces of ash just to construct this component as late as 1931-32.

In terms of raw performance, Model A had it all over both Chevrolet and Plymouth--by 1930, Plymouth was #3 in sales, BTW. Special Interest Autos Magazine published a 3-way drive-report a few years ago, comparing the 1930 Model A, 1930 Chevrolet (the only one of the three with a 6) and a 1930 Plymouth. The overall performance ratings (acceleration, top speed, cornering) were won by Ford, with Plymouth in second place--Chevrolet being third, albeit by not a large margin.

Coming back to auto racing--of the 3 makes 1928-31, with respect to which make wound up as a basis for race cars, Ford leads the way by a long shot, Chevy and Plymouth are barely heard from.
In the engine department, I would guess that things like pressure oiling systems (used by both Ford and Plymouth--Chevy relying on splash lubrication of the bottom end all the way into the early 50's) must have meant something, along with aluminum pistons--Chevrolet, the cast-iron wonder, Ford with lightweight Bohnalite pistons. One can find a pretty wide variety of speed equipment for the Model A--but how many heads did anyone build for Chevy? Model A Ford transmissions were being used in Midgets well into the 1950's, but oddly, I never heard of anyone hooking up a 28-31 Chevy gearbox to a V8-60, or an Offenhauser. I don't know that I have ever seen, or heard of a 28-31 Chevrolet front axle having been used in a race car, although I'd be pretty certain that somewhere, someone did--however, the Model A front axle (along with it's follow-on 32-37 brethren) was a staple of Indianapolis cars and Sprint cars well through the late 1940's--and hot rods/street rods all the way out to today. While Model A rear axle assemblies didn't find a lot of racing use past the late 30's, the only fundamental change in a Ford rear axle past Model A days was the adoption of helical-cut gears beginning in 1932--and those assemblies sure did find their place on the racetrack and dragstrips, also the dry lakes and Bonneville--how may Halibrand (and other makes) quick-change center sections were made for Chevrolet rear axles?

I believe that the JD Powers survey of registered makes tells a very real story: In 1960, they reported, from state motor vehicle registrations, that nearly 2.5 million Model A Fords were still registered, still being actively driven--lightyears ahead of the number of 1928-31 Chevrolet's still licensed and on the road.

Model A, cutting edge? No. Competitive, absolutely. (now of course, the late 30's and beyond to tell a vastly more favorable story for Chevrolet)

Art Anderson

#35 McGuire

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 12:36

Art,
In 1931 Chevrolet beat Ford by nearly 80,000 units. Chevrolet took over leadership of the low-priced market and did not really relinquish if for decades.

You detail here a number of reasons why you hold the Model A Ford in high regard today. Since I do as well, I have no quarrel whatsoever with you on any of them. However, I was discussing the Model A's impact on the history of American auto manufacturing, where our feelings for one car or another from a contemporary perspective (especially as collectors and marque enthusiasts) are not the issue.

The fact is that the Model A's backward-looking engineering and conservative design, coupled with Ford's reliance on this one model in an ever-increasingly complex and sophisticated marketplace, eliminated Ford from contention as America's leading auto manufacturer. Forever, as it turned out. We do know how all this came out in the end.

The Model A did not have to be an updated T or an interim model, which it clearly was by all accounts. It could have been a modern design, taking the competition straight to Chevrolet and Plymouth. But it was not, because by then Henry Ford was no longer the revolutionary he was in 1908. Now he was a reactionary, trying to recycle past glory. He personally vetoed all attempts within the company, from Sorensen, from Edsel, from Galamb and Sheldrick, to make the Model A an up-to-date car.

All that said, if you ask me which 1931 car I would prefer to own today -- Ford, Chevy, or Plymouth -- I'll take the Model A. (Deluxe Cabriolet or Victoria, if you please.) It's easily the best looking to my subjective eye, and has more charm and personality than the other two put together. But if you are going to make me drive the thing every day in traffic, I'm afraid I'm probably going to have to take the Plymouth. It has brakes.

#36 McGuire

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 18:33

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson


the Model A front axle (along with it's follow-on 32-37 brethren) was a staple of Indianapolis cars and Sprint cars well through the late 1940's


There was a very good reason Ford's transverse-spring and wishbone suspension was popular on race cars. (It's the very same thing that made the T, the A, and the V8 all good cars for bad roads.)

Simply put: Ladder-type frames have very little torsional rigidity.

Here is the genius of the Ford design: Take a look at the A Model chassis with its front wishbone and torque-tube rear drive. There is only a single, central attachment point for each spring/axle assembly at each end of the frame. The front wishbone feeds its loads into the center crossmember, as does the torque tube/ rear wishbone assembly out back. Meanwhile the steering box is mounted very close by as well. So virtually all the displacement loadings front and rear are fed straight into the center of the chassis. The frame can rack and flex all over the place without adversely affecting the suspension or steering geometry. This layout took a lot of the mystery and inconsistency out of race car setup, at a time when its finer points weren't all that well understood.

A Model A frame is not very strong or rigid, but then it didn't have to be to produce a sturdy and decent-riding car for the poor roads of the era. The suspension did all the work while the flexible frame mainly supported the body. (However, if you park a Model A on a hill diagonally you may find that some of the doors won't open or close.) But for racing, the Ford frame was found not rigid enough. Many sprint cars and big cars used Ford-based suspension mounted to stronger Essex or Whippet frame rails -- or on the best cars, fabricated rails produced by hand-hammering heavy-gauge steel sheet over an oak form.

For another clue as to how the frames and suspensions on these race cars worked, check out the front engine mount on rail-framed Offy sprint or midget. Interesting, yes? The front engine mount could not be rigid; there was far too much frame flex, which would either take out the main bearings or break the crankcase. The tracks were rough back then, and in the depression Offy crankcases weren't cheap.

Of course, as roads got better the Ford transverse-leaf setup revealed its major drawback for passenger cars -- it rode like a truck.

#37 Arthur Anderson

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 00:53

Originally posted by McGuire


There was a very good reason Ford's transverse-spring and wishbone suspension was popular on race cars. (It's the very same thing that made the T, the A, and the V8 all good cars for bad roads.)

Simply put: Ladder-type frames have very little torsional rigidity.


Absolutely! And, of course, in 1929, there was but one US-built car with an X-member frame, that being the Cord L-29.

Here is the genius of the Ford design: Take a look at the A Model chassis with its front wishbone and torque-tube rear drive. There is only a single, central attachment point for each spring/axle assembly at each end of the frame. The front wishbone feeds its loads into the center crossmember, as does the torque tube/ rear wishbone assembly out back. Meanwhile the steering box is mounted very close by as well. So virtually all the displacement loadings front and rear are fed straight into the center of the chassis. The frame can rack and flex all over the place without adversely affecting the suspension or steering geometry. This layout took a lot of the mystery and inconsistency out of race car setup, at a time when its finer points weren't all that well understood.

McGuire, you are of course away that in 1928-32, Torque Tube Drive was very much the norm, rather than the exception? Check it out. Actually, on the Model A, the radius rods in front transfer what force they do, to the bottom of the flywheel housing on the engine--the rear radius rods act against the torque tube, which in turn is connected directly to the transmission, no contact with any frame members.

Actually, the advantage of the transverse leaf spring coupled with radius rods, on the front axle was that this setup held the front axle in perfect alignment in all three axes, most importantly rigid location of the caster-angle of the front axle, critical to consistent steering. what you haven't mentioned, though, is the much lighter unsprung weight of the transverse spring, as the bulk of a leaf spring's weight, when mounted solidly to the frame, is sprung, whereas with parallel leaf springs, the entire weight of each spring is unsprung weight.

the positioning of the steering gearbox isn't so critical as the length of the drag link (and all cars of that era used a parallel drag link to connect the steering gear to the front wheels). And, Ford, just like virtually ever other maker, understood that the length of the drag link needed to be equal to, or very, very close to the distance between mounting points of the radius rod.


A Model A frame is not very strong or rigid, but then it didn't have to be to produce a sturdy and decent-riding car for the poor roads of the era. The suspension did all the work while the flexible frame mainly supported the body. (However, if you park a Model A on a hill diagonally you may find that some of the doors won't open or close.) But for racing, the Ford frame was found not rigid enough. Many sprint cars and big cars used Ford-based suspension mounted to stronger Essex or Whippet frame rails -- or on the best cars, fabricated rails produced by hand-hammering heavy-gauge steel sheet over an oak form.

McGuire, Nor were any other of the lightweight, low-priced cars' frames particularly stiff. This is one reason why open car bodies tend to be heavier than any closed car. If a Model A, or any other car of that era has a tendency to such torsional weakness today, then one or both of two things are at work: The rivets holding the frame together (and, I might add, all car frames built in this country were hot-riveted) have loosened over time, and the body has begun to lose its rigidity (not common with an all-steel construction body, but wood-framed composite body shells were notorious for working loose over time). Even a welded box-section frame from the 50's-70's is far more flexible without the body shell than you might imagine--the body is what adds the final stiffness to the entire unit (except for the high-end cars, with their massive frame rails).

From 1963 through 1970, I owned 4 Model A's: 1928 Special Coupe (an all-steel 5-window), 1929 Tudor Sedan; 1929 Town Sedan (the top-of-the-line 4-door sedan) with only about 15,000 miles on it, and a pristine original 1931 Deluxe Roadster, with just over 5,000 miles on it when I bought it. None of these cars EVER demonstrated such chassis-flex as you mention, I never, ever had the first problem with doors either jamming shut, or worse, flying open if the frame/body twisted too far. However, in recent years, I have seen a few wood-framed composite 4dr sedans that exhibited this, but to a car, that was the least of their problems--try severely deteriorated structural wood--for some reason, Ford 4-door sedans through 1930 used an older-style composite body structure, but the only other car line with as many all-steel bodies at anything like the low-priced arena was Dodge.

For another clue as to how the frames and suspensions on these race cars worked, check out the front engine mount on rail-framed Offy sprint or midget. Interesting, yes? The front engine mount could not be rigid; there was far too much frame flex, which would either take out the main bearings or break the crankcase. The tracks were rough back then, and in the depression Offy crankcases weren't cheap.

McGuire, I am absolutely aware of how an Offenhauser (or for that matter, most Miller's as well) are mounted, and the three-point engine mouting setup (solid at flywheel, flexible at the center of the front of the crankcase) carried all the way through the tube-frame front engine era. Now, you are aware that a Model A engine was mounted with exactly the same principle? OK, a Model A engine is solidly mounted to the frame at both sides of the flywheel housing, but the front engine mount consists of a Y-shaped yoke which bolts to each side of the timing gear housing, and then itself is supported by a single coil spring against the center of the front crossmember, with a bolt securing it against too much upward travel. In fact, a great many production cars used a very similar engine-mounting system.
Of course, as roads got better the Ford transverse-leaf setup revealed its major drawback for passenger cars -- it rode like a truck.


Frankly, nothing you have said gives any support to your contention that the Model A was somehow "obsolete" in its design in 1928. You mentioned the mechanical brakes earlier: My 29 Town Sedan and 31 Roadster came to me with brake systems that exhibited virtually no undue wear in their components (other than the Town Sedan did require new brake linings and a turning of the drums). Mechanical brakes of any make lacked the one advantage of the early hydraulics, that being exactly equal force applied to all 4 brake drums all the time. However, most all mechanical brake systems of the day, when correctly adjusted (and adjusting them was truly an art!), provided about as much stopping power as on the Plymouth--all of my A's could lock up all four wheels in a panic stop--the narrow, high pressure tires were the biggest limitation to stopping. Chrysler Corporation, along with Duesenberg Inc. were for all intents and purpose, the sole purveyors of cars with hydraulic brakes at the time--in the eyes of so much of the motoring public, "juice" brakes had yet to really prove themselves, be the public right or wrong. In the traffic conditions of the day, when cars accelerated much more slowly, and all cars stopped much more gradually, the Model A was right there, equal to, or better than the vast majority of cars on the road. There is no way I would put one out in today's traffic, but then I won't put my 59 Chevy Biscayne into most day-to-day traffic either--like cars of the 20's, it just won't maneuver well enough for me to feel secure, against the cars of today.

Art

#38 McGuire

McGuire
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Posted 04 November 2004 - 02:42

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson


Frankly, nothing you have said gives any support to your contention that the Model A was somehow "obsolete" in its design in 1928.

Art


Was the American car-buying public wrong? They wanted a more advanced and refined car than Ford was willing to produce, so they went elsewhere. Ford lost its lead in the marketplace and never regained it. Edsel, Sorensen, Sheldrick, Farkas, Galamb et al were ready, willing and able to build a better product, but all their efforts were turned away by HF. Were they all wrong too? :D

#39 VWV

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 21:02

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, of Henry Ford's opinion of history, I'm not too sure if his spoken words matched his actions. Henry Ford was obsessed with preserving history. For proof just go and see the Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village in Dearborn. I went to visit last summer and was just floored by the variety and scope of the exhibits, not what I expected.

http://www.hfmgv.org/