21 replies to this topic

[dick]

Didn't Honda have a V-12 in the late '80s or early 90's? If so, what year? Thanks

[MCH]

1992

[WGD706]

1991 McLaren MP4/6 Engine: 3.5 Honda V12
For the fourth time in as many years and the third time with Honda, McLaren had a different engine specification to use. Otherwise, things were pretty much the same, apart from Henri Durand helping chief designer Neil Oatley on the aerodynamics side of the latest car.
The new engine and its thirst not surprisingly, demanded several changes to the car's layout. Front suspension was changed twice during the year, while both the gearbox and the chassis itself were changed, the former being operated automatically and the latter being more rigid. Aerodynamics were also changed.
Honda's decision to go to V12 configuration did result in a greater thirst in comparison to the V10s of the opposition, but it was also tricky for the team's own TAG engine management system to keep abreast of development both in fuel and engine terms. This resulted in Senna running out of fuel twice during the season, at Silverstone and then two weeks later at Hockenheim.

1992 McLaren MP4/6B then MP4/7A Engine: 3.5 Honda V12
http://www.mclaren.c.../history90s.htm

[mikedeering]

Wasn't it run to compete with Ferrari, who had a V12 at that time and had shown well in 1990? It's interesting that with the V12 Honda seemed to lose their way. In 1991 as mentioned Senna had problems with fuel at certain tracks. In 1992 the engine was generally felt to be overweight, which in part contributed to the lack of competitiveness that year. Maybe this debate isn't for the technical forum, but would Honda have fared better sticking with a V10 in 1991-92?

[gshevlin]

All of Honda's engines in the late 80's/early 90's were overweight...Honda never had a reputation for small light engines. Their engines were big, and heavy - but always very powerful. The V12, however, was not that powerful, and was thirsty. The history of the V12 shows that it was designed and put together in a hurry, and I think that put Honda behind the curve for engine development. (They had been ahead of the curve from 1988 to 1990; the 1988 turbo V6 was so successful that they were able to focus a lot of their 1988 effort on the V10 for 1989, starting that year with a very powerful engine).
McLaren did however build a test car the following season for the Lamborghini V12, so they were not hostile to V12 engines per se - however, they signed with Peugeot for 1994 and used a V10, and never went back to a V12.

[Ray Bell]

Of course, Honda's history with V12s was long... and moderately successful...

Their first two wins were with V12s... Mexico with the 1.5-litre transverse engined car in 1965 and Monza in 1967.

[Kevin Thomas]

I was at the Montreal race in '92 when the Honda v-12 ran. It was the loudest most ear piercing sound I've ever heard.

[Zawed]

From memory, right from the start of the 1991 season, Senna was never that positive about the Honda V12 engine (neither was Berger who did most of the pre-season testing). But then he went on to win 5 races on the trot, which may have flattered the performance of the Honda as Ferrari were off the pace, and Williams were having horrible early season reliability.

[Greg Locock]

"It was the loudest most ear piercing sound I've ever heard."

I remember when Lotus switched to the Lambo V12 from a V8 in 89 or 90. They brought the car over to Hethel, and took it out for a few very noisy laps around the test track. Everyone (well, OK, lots of people) came out of the offices and labs to watch and listen - what a terrific row.

[12.9:1]

As I recall it had a compression ratio of 12.9:1

[ViMaMo]

Complicated diffuser designs in early 90s made the machines sound so much sweeter than persent day machines. There is a video where Martin Brundle rides Schumacher's 1993 Beneton. Sounded glorious.

[desmo]

Actually poking about under the older F1 cars in the Ferrari Museum, I was struck by how simple those early exhaust charged diffuser designs looked compared to newer ones. Generally just one relatively large (half) diverging duct with the exhausts feeding into the forward roof. None of the dividing channels or subtle contouring that one sees now.

[EvilPhil]

Infact if i recall correctly Honda developed a V12 and a V10 in 1987 in prep for the non-turbo era... i remember frank williams commenting on it in 1989 about how far renault had come in comparison to honda who had been testing their engine for years.

Of course williams never ran the V12 honda or the V10.

[JtP]

"Honda's decision to go to V12 configuration did result in a greater thirst in comparison to the V10s of the opposition, but it was also tricky for the team's own TAG engine management system to keep abreast of development both in fuel and engine terms. This resulted in Senna running out of fuel twice during the season, at Silverstone and then two weeks later at Hockenheim."

Perhaps if Senna has spent less of the race at Hockenhiem zigzagging along the straights to block Prost the reduced race distance would have made the fuel supply adequate.

[Melbourne Park]

Lambo.'s Muira used a Honda V12, and Lambo. used it onwards with continual power increases. Not a race engine though.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by gshevlin
All of Honda's engines in the late 80's/early 90's were overweight...Honda never had a reputation for small light engines. Their engines were big, and heavy - but always very powerful.

Right, in traditional Honda philosophy the chassis is the four-wheeled carriage mechanism which keeps the engine from touching the ground and getting dirty.

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Lambo.'s Muira used a Honda V12, and Lambo. used it onwards with continual power increases. Not a race engine though.

The Lamborghini Muira used a V12 designed and manufactured at Lamborghini. I have several books on the history of Lamborghini and I've never seen any reference to a Honda connection.

[desmo]

Me either. Has anyone else heard of any connection between Lambo and Honda?

[david_martin]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Lambo.'s Muira used a Honda V12, and Lambo. used it onwards with continual power increases. Not a race engine though.

I didn't know that Giotto Bizzarini was Japanese or ever worked for Honda. Bizzarini was considered one of the top engine men in Italy in the late 50s and early 60s, and he was specifically recruited by Ferrucio Lamborghini after he left Ferrari to do the engine for his GT project. AFAIK Bizzarini used his rather intimate knowledge of Ferrari's V12 for most of the block and bottom end and drew heavily on the Alfa Romeo twin cam combustion chamber geometry and head layout in the original quad cam 350GT engine. When the Miura project started in 1965, Marcello Gandini at Bertone and Gianpaolo Dallara at Lamborghini basically dimensioned the design around the existing 350GT engine mounted transversely with and a new transaxle to yield the classic mid engined layout. No Honda connection anywhere in that lineage, as far as I am aware.

[Melbourne Park]

I'll have to look it up - my understanding was that Honda gave the drawings but did not want recognition. I read a magazine article on it. I recall the valve arrangement was also characteristic of Honda, and several other details. Not surprising, as that was what it was (according to the detailed article). God knows where it now is ... but I am not making it up!!

[david_martin]

If my memory serves me correctly Honda only put their first car, the S500, into production in early 1963. It was a tiny two-up open top sports car powered by an air cooled 500cc four stroke twin with chain drive to the rear wheels. Lamborghini were building and selling the 350GT in 1964, featuring an engine virtually identical to the V12 engine used in the original Miura. If your version of events is correct, then a Japanese motorcycle company (one that had only been in business for about 7 or 8 years at the time), who had just dipped their toes into the waters of car manufacture with a pocket sized roadster, just happened to have the drawings for a 3600cc quad cam V12 road car engine lying around to pass off clandestinely to an erstwhile tractor manufacturer from Modena for use in an as yet undesigned mid engined super car. Sounds a tad fanciful to me

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by david_martin
If my memory serves me correctly Honda only put their first car, the S500, into production in early 1963. It was a tiny two-up open top sports car powered by an air cooled 500cc four stroke twin with chain drive to the rear wheels. Lamborghini were building and selling the 350GT in 1964, featuring an engine virtually identical to the V12 engine used in the original Miura. If your version of events is correct, then a Japanese motorcycle company (one that had only been in business for about 7 or 8 years at the time), who had just dipped their toes into the waters of car manufacture with a pocket sized roadster, just happened to have the drawings for a 3600cc quad cam V12 road car engine lying around to pass off clandestinely to an erstwhile tractor manufacturer from Modena for use in an as yet undesigned mid engined super car. Sounds a tad fanciful to me

Well, its with some relief that that article was false ... it came with a road test of the current at the time 4WD top Lambo. It sucked me in! As you say, the S500 engine was very different! The S600/800 were at least water cooled. And the 800 was a beautifull engine. The S1300 I think it was called was air cooled, FWD, and for its time, very fast for the dollar. I recall being in one. But I'll go back to the historical case which I had always believed, a la Bizzarini and the clever gearbox placement, and I'll try to find the article. We don't keep most car mags anymore, the garage has boxes of them though, but they are all old ones. Sorry for the miss-information!