43 replies to this topic

[Mihai]

A motorsport 'addicted' since childhood, I am asking you this question here only because I read numerous smart analyses from some of you since I registered in this forum. Motor racing produces a huge amount of wasted material whose manufacturing process and transport is generating an enormous consumption of materials and non-renewal forms energy. Not to mention the pollution.

As a motorsport journalist in Romania I travel to national championship rallies and hillclimbs throughout the country. And I see rude people driving junky road cars (whose noise and pollution devices were removed to gain some pathetic hp) and disturbing the morning peace of the mountain roads. Of course, I consequently ask myself what on Earth am I doing there and why didn’t I study harder in college to get a real job in PR or advertising. But focusing in the first place on this sport, what is it good for ?

[clipper]

Just finished watching the Secret Life of Formula One DVD, and the exact question is posed at the end of it.

The answer given by Murray Walker is.. What is the point of football? What is the point of Cricket, what is the point of Lacrose?

Its a form of enterainment not only for the audience, but involves people who have a passion for what they are doing, from the men who race every second sunday, to those engineers in the factory working 7 day weeks

[Vitesse2]

The old cliché, of course, is that "racing improves the breed". How true that is, or ever was, is debatable ....

[ian senior]

Does it have to have a point? Is there a point of anything, apart from the basic human requirements of a need for food, water and shelter?

It exists, as do so many things, because people want it to. If someone wants to drive, build or watch a racing car, they do it because they like it. It fulfills some kind of need in them. They gain pleasure (and sometimes pain) from it. It provides a challenge and fulfillment - as do many other activities, such as opera, the cinema, football, bird watching, sex....

In short, you can't explain it logically, nor do you need to. If every activity in the world had to be justified in such hard terms, we'd all be a lot worse off and there wouldn't be much pleasure in life. And if we are on the subject of motor racing depleting scarce resources, it's nothing in comparison with the amount of fuel consumed (tax free) by aircraft on duplicated flights that, in some cases, do not need to be made.

[ensign14]

Yeah, there's no point in anything, really. We're all going to die, so why not have everyone on the planet commit suicide?

I think the question is the wrong way around, in a way. For years life was merely a struggle to reproduce before dying at 35 (still the case in some places). When life is less a battle of survival and there is spare time people will find things to do in it. Whether it be inventing things, footy, needlepoint or whatever. Motor racing is a symptom of life, an end in itself. Like most things.

[RTH]

What is the meaning of Sport?
What is the meaning of life ?

Some of the big still unanswered questions

Seen on a Tee shirt recently - "What if, the Hokey Cokey really is what it's all about ? "

[Eric McLoughlin]

My favourite Gary Larson cartoon -

Chicken standing on side of road looking like it can't make up its mind. On the other side of the road is a large billboard on which is written -

"Who needs a reason?".

[Punisher6]

Originally posted by RTH
What is the meaning of Sport?
What is the meaning of life ?

Some of the big still unanswered questions

Seen on a Tee shirt recently - "What if, the Hokey Cokey really is what it's all about ? "

Do you mean "hokey pokey"?

[Vitesse2]

Same thing - you call it the Hokey Pokey, we call it the Hokey Cokey! But apparently the whole thing is actually a satire on the Latin Mass:

http://www.telegraph...14/nhoke14.html

[D-Type]

Once upon a time, the late Thomas Mallory, who may or may not have been the first man to climb Mount Everest was giving a talk about his proposed climb. At the end of his talk he invited questions. One young lady asked "Mr mallory, I understand how you are going to climb Everest, but can you tell me why?"
Mallory replied "Because it's there"
In other words "Because it's human nature to try"

The same applies to motor racing. It is part of human nature to be competitive. The best runner, thrower or whatever was the best provider and competition improved the ability of the whole species. The first race probably occurred the first time that two early motorists met on the road and their inherent competitive nature took over.

Sport in all its forms has evolved from this instinct. Spectator sport is a sort of 'doing it at secondhand'.

Whether any sport can ever be justified on social and environmental grounds really depends on the view of society as a whole. Some oppose all frivolous enjoyment on religious and ideological grounds, others feel it is part of society's duty to enhance the quality of life. some consider it a waste of resources, others as the fulfilment of the use of these resources for the benefit of man. I leave this question to the sociologists. But reserve the right to disagree with them!

A more subtle question to ask relates more closely to motor racing (and to any professional sport). Does a race take place for the enjoyment of the competitors or for that of the spectators. This has been the underlying reason for the FIA/FOCA, USAC/CART, Ecclestone/BRDC and other disputes.

It is no different in Football with the disagreements (in England) between the Football Association, the Football league, the Premiership, the big clubs, the Football Players' Association, etc. All of little relevance to 22 men in a public park on a Sunday morning playing a game for fun, but of interest to the fans of the game, and of interest in a different way to the owners of clubs and the professional players.

Vitesse2 - interesting about the Hokey Cokey being a Latin Mass parody

[ensign14]

Originally posted by D-Type
Once upon a time, the late Thomas Mallory, who may or may not have been the first man to climb Mount Everest was giving a talk about his proposed climb. At the end of his talk he invited questions. One young lady asked "Mr mallory, I understand how

George Mallory, as Sir Thomas was the author of Le Morte D'Arthur and unlikely to have wished to climb Everest.

[Doug Nye]

Discussion of the 'hokey cockey' reminds me naturally of the Russian racing driver Yaputya Leflegin...and his spectacular girlfriend Eva Vestoff.

Which of course does nothing to advance the intellectual content of this thread...for which I immediately apologise...

DCN

[David McKinney]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by D-Type
Once upon a time, the late Thomas Mallory, who may or may not have been the first man to climb Mount Everest was giving a talk about his proposed climb. At the end of his talk he invited questions. One young lady asked "Mr mallory, I understand how you are going to climb Everest, but can you tell me why?"
Mallory replied "Because it's there"
[The quote comes from Col. John Hunt, leader of the successful 1953 Everest expedition

[djellison]

You do know the FIA has funded tree planting programs to offset any and all pollution, and more, created by it's championships

Motorsport drives motoring technology that often makes it into the real world. It also out-strips aerospace materials sciences in some places. Essentially, it's a hotbed of research.

Doug

[Keir]

To give us endless fodder for this BB!!

[BorderReiver]

It's that entoxicating mix between, danger, excitment, spectacle, speed and competition.

Basically it's about sex. . .

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Discussion of the 'hokey cockey' reminds me naturally of the Russian racing driver Yaputya Leflegin...and his spectacular girlfriend Eva Vestoff.

Which of course does nothing to advance the intellectual content of this thread...for which I immediately apologise...

DCN

Big groan. This is more suitable for the "Ironic Thread". Very disappointed in you, Doug. I shall complain to the host.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
It's that entoxicating mix between, danger, excitment, spectacle, speed and competition.

Basically it's about sex. . .

cue the old quote of "I remember when sex was safe and racing was dangerous..."

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Discussion of the 'hokey cockey' reminds me naturally of the Russian racing driver Yaputya Leflegin...and his spectacular girlfriend Eva Vestoff.

Which of course does nothing to advance the intellectual content of this thread...for which I immediately apologise...

DCN

It was not long ago that the composer of the "Hokey-Cokey" died.

Soon after, a story circulated that the funeral director had some problems during the preparations for the funeral. Apparently whilst installing the deceased into his coffin, they put his left leg in and everything went downhill thereafter...

PdeRL

[David Beard]

Originally posted by djellison
You do know the FIA has funded tree planting programs

I had no idea that plank wear had been so excessive....

[RTH]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Discussion of the 'hokey cockey' reminds me naturally of the Russian racing driver Yaputya Leflegin...and his spectacular girlfriend Eva Vestoff.

Which of course does nothing to advance the intellectual content of this thread...for which I immediately apologise...

DCN

[diego]

The point of auto racing is to increase the complexity of one's experiences, so that an individual can lead an autotelic existence.

[D-Type]

Ensign 14,
I'm at work without references so I guessed at Thomas. As this is TNF, I should have checked first.
So it was george Mallory as in 'Mallory and Irving'

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
[QUOTE]Originally posted by D-Type
Once upon a time, the late Thomas Mallory, who may or may not have been the first man to climb Mount Everest was giving a talk about his proposed climb. At the end of his talk he invited questions. One young lady asked "Mr mallory, I understand how you are going to climb Everest, but can you tell me why?"
Mallory replied "Because it's there"
[The quote comes from Col. John Hunt, leader of the successful 1953 Everest expedition [/QUOTE]

David,
As far as I know it was Mallory who said it first. The quotation was well known so John Hunt may well have borrowed it later.

Doug,

[MoMurray]

IMHO human beings have become the dominant (in terms of control not numbers) species on this planet because of a deeply rooted instinct for not only survival but competition. Darwins theory of evloution is based on the premise of comeptition where the prize is survival itself. If we accept that as being the case, then the moment the second automobile was produced, we were committed to racing them not by choice but by our very nature. I attended the Indycar race at Belle Isle some years ago and on the Saturday afternoon I wandered out to a remote (ish) part of the track by myself. As I watched Alex Zanardi in the Target car qualify, I remember very clearly having this moment of astoundment, when it occurred to me that I didn't understand what this was all about. How did we get from two people racing their inventions to the fully commercialized and controlled world of modern day racing. Seems the plot was lost somewhere along the way.

Now I don't question it anymore?

Mo

[polendo]

One reason:
Research & development in racing leads to improvements in parts which can be used in every day cars. It is basically one source (along some others) of new technology.

But the truth of the matter, some human beings like to get to the finish line first, so they like to race.

[Frank S]

Novelty.

The human psyche seeks novelty. The more familiar one is with a phenomenon or activity, the more subtle are the novelties perceived, appreciated, catalogued, valued, sought, and the more rewarding the process.


I first conceived this thought when working in a 'home' for delinquent boys. Routine was valued because it freed the boys' minds for contemplating circumstances other than bare survival in a brutal world.

If the routine became too routine, i.e. lacking in novelty, the freed minds sought novelty in mischievous veins. If the staff changed the program in constructively novel ways at about a three-day interval, novelty of the old new program had not quite worn off when the new new program was instituted (sorry), the boys were always a little off-balance (leaning in a forward direction, if we had done our job right) and except in rare cases, non-mischief-prone.

It's the kind of thing that keeps folks working at apparently humdrum jobs; the distribution of tolerance/intolerance and 'taste' in the population accounts for the same job's ability to drive some others 'round the bend.


Novelty. And a fine-tuned sense of it.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Of course, modern professional racing has had all but the manufactured novelty drained off, my view.


--
Frank S

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by D-Type

As far as I know it was Mallory who said it first. The quotation was well known so John Hunt may well have borrowed it later.

You're quite right, Duncan.My problem is I'm old enough to remember Col. Hunt saying it, and it was also the title of his book.
But my friend google confirms you're right and I'm wrong.
Aplogies for doubting your word :

[Magee]

The point is:

IT GETS PEOPLE LIKE US TALKING ABOUT IT!

[FrankB]

Originally posted by Mihai
...an enormous consumption of ... non-renewal forms energy. Not to mention the pollution.

Originally posted by djellison
You do know the FIA has funded tree planting programs to offset any and all pollution, and more, created by it's championships

A race meeting will consume more non-renewable energy and cause more pollution than, say, a football match. But I would imagine that far more fuel is burnt (with the resulting pollution) by the spectators travelling to and from the circuit than is used directly by the competing cars.

Gestures towards "Environmental Consideration" are to be welcomed, but I don't think that motor sport as a whole or the individuals involved in it (as competitor, organiser, journalist or fan) should beat themselves about the head too much with the pollution issue. We would probably find that travel to and from football matches in the UK produces more pollution in a year than does a whole season of race meetings.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by David McKinney

You're quite right, Duncan.My problem is I'm old enough to remember Col. Hunt saying it, and it was also the title of his book.
But my friend google confirms you're right and I'm wrong.
Aplogies for doubting your word :

I'm sure that the Colonel's book would have been on the shelves of every school library in New Zealand. It's called brainwashing.

[rdrcr]

It's really very simple.

It all started way back when... two guys with a fair amount of money bought a couple of French cars or whatever and decided they'd pull their dicks out in public - with, who's got the faster set-of-wheels, and the rest is history.

From there on out, it's been a case of motley assemblages including adrenaline junkies, princes, ne'er-do-wells and dare-devils - men (predominantly) with egos larger than their helmets can fit over coming together to have a massive circle-jerk to see who can finish first.

Then, some creative, industrious, pimp figured out how he could charge the circle-jerkers to run on a special facility instead on impaling themselves on a public road and charge other people for the privilege to see this exhibition...

From this, sprang all sorts of cottage industries... including a place we can all go in a virtual world to just freaking talk about it.

Pathetic really...

I just can't help it, I'm in the adrenaline junkie camp...

:

[Roger Clark]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the obvious truth. The point of Formula 1 racing is to make money.

[eldougo]

;)

rdrcr.......quote.

Pathetic really...

I just can't help it, I'm in the adrenaline junkie camp...(So am I)
_____________________________

[Mihai]

Originally posted by ian senior
And if we are on the subject of motor racing depleting scarce resources, it's nothing in comparison with the amount of fuel consumed (tax free) by aircraft on duplicated flights that, in some cases, do not need to be made.

This is only half of the truth. A press material by Renault suggests that all GP cars in an entire season are burning less fuel than a jet in a single Trans-Atlantic flight. But isn’t Formula 1 creating thousands of extra-flights each year ? Not only to carry overseas the personnel, the cars, the parts, the logistic (including food) to this year’s 18 GPs and private testing for all teams, but for the fans too.

The passion for speed is a secret desire to commit suicide, according to a scientific comment by a psychologist. So if all reduces to a personal quest why making such waste and risking spectator’s lives and killing legions of creatures in the process ? Why not feeding this passion for speed by doing a conventional sport like cycling, bob, canoe, bungee-jumping ?

[tonicco]

Originally posted by Mihai


This is only half of the truth. A press material by Renault suggests that all GP cars in an entire season are burning less fuel than a jet in a single Trans-Atlantic flight. But isn’t Formula 1 creating thousands of extra-flights each year ? Not only to carry overseas the personnel, the cars, the parts, the logistic (including food) to this year’s 18 GPs and private testing for all teams, but for the fans too.

The passion for speed is a secret desire to commit suicide, according to a scientific comment by a psychologist. So if all reduces to a personal quest why making such waste and risking spectator’s lives and killing legions of creatures in the process ? Why not feeding this passion for speed by doing a conventional sport like cycling, bob, canoe, bungee-jumping ?

Sorry, Mihai, but I don't get it... do you need a justification to be a motorsport fan or are you trying to understand the reasons why motorsport exists?

Is it all that relevant the amount of fuel burned? And what, exactly, is the relevance (point) of derivating to the fuel being burned by the aircrafts (also) carrying the fans??

And please, the "passion for speed is a secret desire to commit suicide, according to a scientific comment by a psychologist" thing is a bit far fetched...

Sorry, but I'm a bit puzzled...

[armchair expert]

Originally posted by FrankB

A race meeting will consume more non-renewable energy and cause more pollution than, say, a football match. But I would imagine that far more fuel is burnt (with the resulting pollution) by the spectators travelling to and from the circuit than is used directly by the competing cars.

Gestures towards "Environmental Consideration" are to be welcomed, but I don't think that motor sport as a whole or the individuals involved in it (as competitor, organiser, journalist or fan) should beat themselves about the head too much with the pollution issue. We would probably find that travel to and from football matches in the UK produces more pollution in a year than does a whole season of race meetings.

I may well be wrong, but I recall Alan Jones in about 1982 saying that a season of Formula 1 consumed less fuel than one jumbo jet flying from Sydney to London.

Either way I don't care. I love going fast and watching people going even faster! Once upon a time, racing actually made a difference to road cars, while that may not be the case any more, it sort of gives it a social conscience of sorts.

[canon1753]

Motor racing as it is now, is a commercial interest. There is a lot of P/R value for manufacturers saying their car is faster than the other guy's. F1's value to the average car is probably is the electronics to some extent, the familiarity with exotic materials and tire and suspension technology. Other forms of racing have as much or as little "racing improves the breed" as the manufacturers want. My Neon in fact, is far more technically advanced in the electronics and a lot of other areas than Ryan Newman's Intrepid NASCAR car. Techinical reasons are not enough. PR is the reason.

That is why modern drivers are boring P/R hacks. And that is why racing is big business.

That does not explain the reason for racing below the pinnacles of the sport.
Why do we kart race or rally or historics or amateur race? That is where the adrenaline junkie theory or the competition idea comes in. Maybe a lot of us are not physically gifted enough to compete against other in a track meet or cycling or a sport, but with auto racing, we are all equal. Neil Bonnett once wrote about intimidation in NASCAR and he said "We all weigh 3500lbs." Motor racing is the great equalizer of physicality.

If racing was about R+D, F1 would be hydrogen power-cell test beds. I'd bet that within a few years the FIA will institute an alternate fuel racing championship to keep the illusion that racing is important to the development of the automobile and also to give the appearance that racing has a social conscience.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Nobody seems to have mentioned the obvious truth. The point of Formula 1 racing is to make money.

I thought we were discussing motor racing, not Formula 1

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

I thought we were discussing motor racing, not Formula 1

Good point Vitesse2, but I'm sure Roger has his tongue firmly in his cheek.
;)

[VAR1016]

All this stuff about pollution etc., etc., reminds me of the time there was some oil crisis.

It was proposed that motor racing be stopped for the duration until someone asked if other sports such as fishing which consume infinitely more petrol by virtue of the fact that people drive to their fishing places, were to be stopped also.

PdeRL

[Eric McLoughlin]

Or cycle racing - which seems to require a flotilla of support vehicles.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

I thought we were discussing motor racing, not Formula 1

I was going to add that the point of all other forms of racing is to lose money.

[Vitesse2]

That was what I thought you meant, Roger.

Question: How do you make a small fortune in motor racing?
Answer: [omnes] Start with a large fortune ....

Or, as they say in the sailing fraternity: "Trying to win the America's Cup is like standing in a cold shower tearing up £50 notes".

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
That was what I thought you meant, Roger.

Question: How do you make a small fortune in motor racing?
Answer: [omnes] Start with a large fortune ....

Or, as they say in the sailing fraternity: "Trying to win the America's Cup is like standing in a cold shower tearing up £50 notes".

Given recent winners' nationalities surely that should read '~ $100 notes'