35 replies to this topic

[Dynojet]

Since what year did sequential shifting start to apear in f1, or better, when the last seletive gearbox was used?

Thanks

[Monstrobolaxa]

Selective shifting was last used in F1 in 1995 with the Forti Corse Ford team.....in Hungary....cause in Belgium they started using a semi-auto.

Sequential gearboxes....well don't know cause in 1991 Ferrari went from selective to semi-auto.....though the semi-auto was a sequencial system.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Ferrari actually invented the electrohydraulic gearbox in 1989, and started using it that year in Formula 1. It took the next several years for all the teams to phase out manual gearboxes.

There is no such thing as a "selective" gearbox. That term is really a misnomer. All gearboxes are "selective" if they have more than one gear.

Also using the term "semi-automatic" when referring to electrohydraulic gearboxes is misleading, because the latter still have a clutch like a manual, except controlled hydraulically. Automatics, on the other hand, use a complicated device called a torque converter, and in the process produce very slow shifts with significant power loss.


Manual Gearboxes


Fully manual gearboxes with a gated shifter and a clutch controlled by a foot pedal.

Sequential mechanical gearboxes operated by a shifter. These are used on Champ Cars, but have never been used in Formula 1. EDIT: Inaccuracies now corrected.

Sequential electrohydrualic gearboxes operated by wheel mounted paddles. This is the Formula 1 system.

Only Ferrari (the inventors), Maserati, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, BMW, Alfa Romeo, Audi and Toyota have production electrohydraulic gearboxes.


Automatic Gearboxes (oftened referred to as "slush boxes", for their slow and imprecise shifts)

Fully automatic: Uses a torque converter and a computer to decide which gear to use.

"Tip-Tronic" / "Autostick": Falsely assumed to be the same kind of system used in Formula 1. Is actually just a standard automatic gearbox using a torque converter, except with the ability to select the gear yourself via a stick.

Sequential automatic: Same as the Tip-Tronic system, except with the ability to change gears using buttons on the steering wheel. Again, often assumed (even more so than the Tip-Tronic system) to be the same as the Formula 1 system.

[Monstrobolaxa]

Well what the guest meant with selective was manual gearboxes with the H-consol!

[Dynojet]

Mostrobolaxa is right, I`m not here to discuss what you think about the terms, I want to know when the first sequential gearbox showed up in f1.

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by Admiral Thrawn
Sequential electrohydraulic gearboxes operated by a gated shifter. These are used on Champ Cars, but have never been used in Formula 1.

There is no electohydraulic actuation in Champ Car gearboxes, nor is the shifter "gated"... they are a straight mechanical sequential unit; slap the shift lever forward to upshift one gear, slap it rearward to downshift (or is it rearward up/forward down?), just like a motorcycle, but with your hand instead of your foot. The only thing electrical in the system is an ignition blip on upshifts triggered by, I believe, sensing pressure on the shift knob.

By definition, it couldn't be both gated and sequential. Gated implies an H pattern... you can shift from third to first without the transmission ever being in second gear. With a sequential box you have to hit the lever to shift from third to second and hit it again to go second to first. That's what the word sequential means.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Originally posted by Engineguy


There is no electohydraulic actuation in Champ Car gearboxes, nor is the shifter "gated"... they are a straight mechanical sequential unit; slap the shift lever forward to upshift one gear, slap it rearward to downshift (or is it rearward up/forward down?), just like a motorcycle, but with your hand instead of your foot. The only thing electrical in the system is an ignition blip on upshifts triggered by, I believe, sensing pressure on the shift knob.

By definition, it couldn't be both gated and sequential. Gated implies an H pattern... you can shift from third to first without the transmission ever being in second gear. With a sequential box you have to hit the lever to shift from third to second and hit it again to go second to first. That's what the word sequential means.

Whoops! Sorry about that. Even I can't write the explanation without buggering it up. lol

Yes, I'm aware of what sequential means, and yes, obviously Champ cars don't use a gated shifter (because they're sequential).

What I don't understand is how exactly mechanical sequential gearboxes work (even though I've used them on Superkarts).

Care to explain?

[Admiral Thrawn]

Originally posted by Dynojet
Mostrobolaxa is right, I`m not here to discuss what you think about the terms, I want to know when the first sequential gearbox showed up in f1.

Like I said, 1989. Ferrari were the first.

[Dynojet]

ADMIRAL, Ferrari used the first automated gearbox, that some say was actually non-sequential.

I want to know what was the first "manual" sequential, cus a friend of mine states that teams like Mclaren and williams weren't using sequential ones.

[desmo]

Not totally on point but Wright says in his book F1 Technology that the 1st generation Ferrari power assisted gearchanging system was developed on a non-sequential transmission, 1st tested at the end of '87 and not raced until '89 on the 640. Williams is then credited with the adaption of motorcycle-type sequential gearboxes which are eminantly suited to power assisted operation, needing only a single hydraulic actuator as opposed to the three for a non-sequential design although no year is given.

The inference I get is that there were likely never any manual sequential gearboxes used, at least among the top teams, as they switched to the sequential design specifically to facilitate paddle shifting.

[Dynojet]

Interesting Desmo, but I remember seeing a video of a on-board camera, of Ayrton Senna and he seemed be changing the gears just pushing or pulling the lever.

Besides, I always tought that the cockpit was very small to get room for a h-gate shift of 6 gears, plus should be hard to select a gear in the harsh ride of the stiff suspensions and the high G's cornering....

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by Admiral Thrawn

What I don't understand is how exactly mechanical sequential gearboxes work (even though I've used them on Superkarts). Care to explain?

The linear motion of the shift lever is converted to a ratcheting rotary incremental motion (lets say 60 degrees for visualization) of a cam or drum in the gearbox. Lobes on the cam or grooves on the drum drive linear motion of the proper shift fork at the proper time. I've seen many clever variations of layout, but they all amount to this same process of linear motion to rotary motion to linear motion.

Some good diagrams and component photos here...

http://auto.howstuff...ial-gearbox.htm

.

[Powersteer]

Didn't Porsche researched on a twin clutch system during the mid eighties for thier WSPC cars? If they did, can it be classified as semi-automatic selection?

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Dynojet
ADMIRAL, Ferrari used the first automated gearbox, that some say was actually non-sequential.

I want to know what was the first "manual" sequential, cus a friend of mine states that teams like Mclaren and williams weren't using sequential ones.

I believe that the original Ferrari electro-hydraulically controlled gearbox was able to skip shift - by pressing a button it could skip from the gear it was in (like 6th) to a preset gear (2nd) without going through the other gears, or by skipping some (6th-4th-2nd). A sequential gearbox cannot do that.

Originally posted by Engineguy
By definition, it couldn't be both gated and sequential. Gated implies an H pattern... you can shift from third to first without the transmission ever being in second gear. With a sequential box you have to hit the lever to shift from third to second and hit it again to go second to first. That's what the word sequential means.

Didn't the Ford GT40 of the '60s employ some sort of lockout device that prevented the driver from selecting a gear other than the next or previous in the sequence?

[100cc]

Originally posted by Engineguy


There is no electohydraulic actuation in Champ Car gearboxes, nor is the shifter "gated"... they are a straight mechanical sequential unit; slap the shift lever forward to upshift one gear, slap it rearward to downshift (or is it rearward up/forward down?), just like a motorcycle, but with your hand instead of your foot. The only thing electrical in the system is an ignition blip on upshifts triggered by, I believe, sensing pressure on the shift knob.

Yeah i'm quite certain it would be push forward for downshift and pull for upshift. Why would you need a blip on an upshift - did you mean downshift?

[Croaky]

I think it's a typo and should say ignition cut on upshifts, to cut the power so the gearbox will let go of one gear and engage the next one.

[scarbs]

In 1989 Ferraris raced a semi automatic box, but it wasnt a sequential system, it used six (IIRC) actuators to mimic the H gate type shift on the selectors forks, by paddles on the steerign wheel. It was possible to go directly from one gear to any other. Next year they introduced a more reliable system based a selector drum, less actuators and hence sequentially selecting gears. this forced the system to go through every gear to go from one to another.
Other teams adopted sequential but otherwise manually controlled gear selection in the following years. So Ferrari were first in 1990

I couldn't be sure whch team last used an H gate, but forti corse sounds about right...

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by 100cc


Yeah i'm quite certain it would be push forward for downshift and pull for upshift. Why would you need a blip on an upshift - did you mean downshift?

The sources I've found, including the article I linked above, all say push forward for upshift, but I guess it would be very easy to reverse it according to driver preference.

I meant blip on upshift... the normal state of of the ignition is full "on", so to me, a blip is an interuption; a cut in power to unload the dogs, allowing their disengagement.

[Ursus]

Originally posted by 100cc


Yeah i'm quite certain it would be push forward for downshift and pull for upshift. Why would you need a blip on an upshift - did you mean downshift?

It seems like on all race cars you pull to shift up from what I've seen and heard. I suppose you know how it's done in shifter karts?
Oddly enough the passenger car industry have reversed it on the auto boxes with a "sequential" shift mode.

[MarkWRX]

Originally posted by Dynojet
Interesting Desmo, but I remember seeing a video of a on-board camera, of Ayrton Senna and he seemed be changing the gears just pushing or pulling the lever.

Besides, I always tought that the cockpit was very small to get room for a h-gate shift of 6 gears, plus should be hard to select a gear in the harsh ride of the stiff suspensions and the high G's cornering....

I remember the same video, the one of Ayrton Senna doing a qual lap of Monaco. It sure looks like he is using a squential gearbox.

Mark

[100cc]

Originally posted by Ursus


It seems like on all race cars you pull to shift up from what I've seen and heard. I suppose you know how it's done in shifter karts?

Yeah shifter karts i've driven are pull for upshift and all racecars i've been in are pull for upshift as well. And looking at onboard videos the same applies for wrc cars.

I guess in passenger cars its mainly because next to the tiptronic thing you have your normal automatic shifter... with for example 1-2-D... with D most forward... so perhaps that is why the shifter is pushed forward to switch to a higher gear - to avoid confusion. and i guess people also thing "forward to moce faster."

I think in race cars its the way it is because its a lot easier to push forward under heavy braking than it is to pull.

engineguy: i was thinking of a blip as in when downshifting - a blip on the throttle to match the revs for the lower gear - thats why i was a bit confused.

[Engineguy]

Well, according to www.champcarworldseries.com/tech/behind_wheel.asp ...

Gear Shift Lever: The driver pulls back to upshift through all six gears and pushes forward to downshift.

... so I guess it is pull up/push down. I stand corrected.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Dynojet
Since what year did sequential shifting start to apear in f1, or better, when the last seletive gearbox was used?

Thanks

The Lotus 12, which first appeared in F1 at Monaco in 1958, had a sequential 5 speed gearbox.

[OO7]

Hello great forum, I've been lurking for a while

What is the difference between a sequential manual with paddle shift and a semi-automatic paddle shift as in F1?.

Why is it that current F1 cars have direct clutch control via paddle additional paddles, wereas with sports cars such as the Ferrari 360 and Lamborghini Gallardo which also have semi-automatic gearboxes, lack means for the driver to control the clutch directly (clutch pedal/paddle)?.

Thanks
Obi

[Pioneer]

I believe a working clutch is required by the regulations for safety reasons?

I could be wrong.

[OO7]

Originally posted by Obi Offiah
Hello great forum, I've been lurking for a while

What is the difference between a sequential manual with paddle shift and a semi-automatic paddle shift as in F1?.

Why is it that current F1 cars have direct clutch control via paddle additional paddles, wereas with sports cars such as the Ferrari 360 and Lamborghini Gallardo which also have semi-automatic gearboxes, lack means for the driver to control the clutch directly (clutch pedal/paddle)?.

Thanks
Obi

Bump.

[Admiral Thrawn]

In sports cars with an F1 gearbox, you can slow down to a stop at the lights without having to select neutral. "1" will stay on the dash (even though the car is in neutral), and upon moving away from the lights, you don't have to engage 1st (or 2nd if you like) gear. It's all done automatically. Also the gearbox won't let you select a gear higher than 2nd when making a standing start. If you slow down from a high gear, the gearbox will downshift automatically upon reaching a preset rev which is programmed into the transmission control unit. This is all obviously to prevent the engine from stalling and makes the car easier to drive. Subsequently it won't let you upshift if the revs will drop below the control unit's pre-set rev that is considered the minimum for the anti-stall program.

By comparison, current F1 cars must be launched manually via the releasing of the clutch. Current F1 cars will stall if you let the revs drop too low, unlike in sports cars. So apart from needing a manual clutch at starts, if you spin out on the track, you'll need to either press the "N" (neutral) button or pull one of the clutch paddles before your revs drop too low and the engine stalls. Formula 1 cars do have some sort of anti-stall protection, but I don't know the particulars of it, and it's nowhere near as effective as that used on sport cars featuring an F1 gearbox.

Examples of road cars featuring an electro-hydraulic ("F1") gearbox:

BMW E36 M3 SMGI (introduced 1998, stick operated)
Ferrari 355 F1 (introduced 1998, first road car to have paddle-operated F1 gearbox)
Ferrari 360 Modena F1 (1999)
Ferrari 575M Maranello (2002)
BMW E46 M3 SMGII (2002)
Ferrari Enzo Ferrari (2002)
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti (2004)

among others.

[desmo]

Calling such a thing an "F1" gearbox borders on the fraudulent, no?

[OO7]

Cheers Admiral Thrawn . So basically its F1 regulations, lack of starter etc which makes manual clutch control necessary.

What about the difference between a sequential manual paddleshift e.g Mercedes CLR sportcar prototype and a semi-automatic paddle shift e.g F1 grandprix car?.

Thanks
Obi

[Admiral Thrawn]

Originally posted by desmo
Calling such a thing an "F1" gearbox borders on the fraudulent, no?

How?

They use exactly the same technology. i.e. A manual gearbox with an electro-hydraulically actuated clutch, and sequential shift pattern.

The only difference being that the road car versions have a more comprehensive anti-stall program.

What is fraudulent is when people claim "tiptronic" style gearboxes are "like Formula 1" when it's nothing more than an automatic gearbox using a torque converter, but with the ability to select the gear you want manually if you so desire using a gearstick, buttons on the steering wheel or paddles.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Originally posted by Obi Offiah
Cheers Admiral Thrawn . So basically its F1 regulations, lack of starter etc which makes manual clutch control necessary.

What about the difference between a sequential manual paddleshift e.g Mercedes CLR sportcar prototype and a semi-automatic paddle shift e.g F1 grandprix car?.

Thanks
Obi

I explained it above.

Sequential manual paddleshift / SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox) / F1 / semi-automatic paddle shift all use the same technology, although the term "semi-automatic" is a misnomer when it comes to an F1 gearbox.

The reason being, technically, an:

automatic gearbox -----> uses a torque converter

manual gearbox ----> uses a clutch

"Semi-automatic" should really be called a "semi-manual", because an F1 gearbox is inherently a manual, albeit using an electro-hydraulically actuated clutch. It has no relation whatsoever to an automatic gearbox.

[OO7]

Ahhhh! I see

During a couple of ALMS races cameras have been placed in the footwell of the R8. On a few occasions the driver has blipped the clutch apparently to aid a change down. With the Enzo blipping the accelerator is supposed to assisted downshifts. I haven't seen F1 footwell images since Silverstone 1995, but I wonder if this technique is still valid in F1?.

Cheers
Obi

[desmo]

Originally posted by Admiral Thrawn


How?

They use exactly the same technology. i.e. A manual gearbox with an electro-hydraulically actuated clutch, and sequential shift pattern.

The only difference being that the road car versions have a more comprehensive anti-stall program.

What is fraudulent is when people claim "tiptronic" style gearboxes are "like Formula 1" when it's nothing more than an automatic gearbox using a torque converter, but with the ability to select the gear you want manually if you so desire using a gearstick, buttons on the steering wheel or paddles.

I thought the road versions lacked a manually (pedually?) operated clutch for getting underway. And they use a motorcycle type sequential gearbox where ratios can only be selected adjacent to the gear in use too? I guess I misunderstood what these were.

[Paul Ranson]

F1 engines have active throttles, blipping on down shifts is done by one of the control boxes. With a mechanically shifted sequential a blip can smooth the take up of drive, reduce the chances of locking rear wheels. This is exactly the same as with any sort of down shift. A blip in the inter-gear neutral isn't possible, this is purely before re-engaging the clutch. In F1 this area is subject to all sorts of entertaining innovation regarding pseudo ABS and other brake balance things.

The original 1990 Ferrari F1 'semi-automatic' gearbox had three actuators, one for each selector. This means it could (theoretically?) go direct from one gear to another. The argument for this solution was packaging rather than shifting. Removing the mechanical connection from shifter to gearbox solves some problems in designing the car.

Current F1 boxes (AFAIK) use a barrel to relate the three or four selectors to a single actuator, this means you cannot shift other than from one gear to the next. F1 rules prevent cleverness in this area anyway.

Paul

[OO7]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
F1 engines have active throttles, blipping on down shifts is done by one of the control boxes. With a mechanically shifted sequential a blip can smooth the take up of drive, reduce the chances of locking rear wheels. This is exactly the same as with any sort of down shift. A blip in the inter-gear neutral isn't possible, this is purely before re-engaging the clutch. In F1 this area is subject to all sorts of entertaining innovation regarding pseudo ABS and other brake balance things.

Paul

The Ferrari Enzo is supposed to incorporated the same sort of technology, I assume that it's less refined than the F1 system and thus requires driver input for the smoothest down shift?.

Obi

[Admiral Thrawn]

Originally posted by Obi Offiah


The Ferrari Enzo is supposed to incorporated the same sort of technology, I assume that it's less refined than the F1 system and thus requires driver input for the smoothest down shift?.

Obi

The BMW E46 M3 SMGII rev-matches (blips) on downshifts, as will the new M5.

I'm not sure about this aspect of the Ferrari SMG gearboxes. I would assume they do, but I could be wrong. Either way, there is no way you can overrev the engine (it won't let you downshift if the revs are still too high).