36 replies to this topic

[Hugo Boecker]

In the 1954 Le Mans Georges Trouis drove a Kieft MG 1100cc together with Alfred Hitchings. (No.48 dnf ) In 1955 he was entered with his Kieft in the Hockenheim Rheinpokal Rennen (May 8th) and Eifelrennen (May 30th) We are not sure if he really started theese races. He could have sold his car to German Hans Finke, also on the Eifelrennen list and a "may-be-runner" at Hockenheim. Has anyone informations about this or the car.

[Peter Morley]

Don't know if it is connected or not, but a German guy used to race a Kieft in historics - that would be in the late 80's/early 90's.

It had a fibreglass body, similar (I think) to the Climax Le-Mans car, I forget if it had Climax or MG engine.

[Richard Neale]

I thought the Le Mans MG engined car was 1500cc and had an alli body. Untill a few years ago it belonged to Duncan Rabagliati who sold it to a Belgian ~ It's been very nicely restored and changed hands about 12 months ago.

[qualibre]

the Georges Trouis car (#48) was a 1953 Kieft-MG central seater with alloy body.
the other Kieft (#46) was driven by Alan Rippon and was the first Kieft sport car with 1100 Coventry Climax (the first time used in race) and fibergall body (NDA172 plate).
these 2 cars were retired and were totally different !

- the kieft central seater were powered by 2 litre Bristol or 1.5 litre MG - alloy body - 1,2 or 3 seats (12 cars - 6 with MG engine / 6 with Bristol engine)
- the Kieft 1100 sport car were powered by 1100 coventry climax, or turner engine or AJB engine - fiberglass body - 2 seats (probably less than 10 cars)

chassis, body and engine are very different on this 2 types of car, the central seater was based on the formula 2 chassis !

[johnwilliamdavies]

This is Hans Finke in his 1100 Kieft. It's at a German circuit, I don't know which one.





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Welsh Motor Sport History

[qualibre]

very nice photo !
this car is a 1100 kieft sports car - 2 seats

driver : Hans Finke (#30)
race : the Eifelrennen Nürburgring
date : 29.5.1955
result : retired for oil pump problem after 5 laps

[qualibre]

here 2 photos about 1954 le mans

#46 kiet-coventry climax 1100 sports car (alan rippon)

#48 kieft-mg central seater (georges trouis)

[johnwilliamdavies]

Originally posted by qualibre
very nice photo !
this car is a 1100 kieft sports car - 2 seats

driver : Hans Finke (#30)
race : the Eifelrennen Nürburgring
date : 29.5.1955
result : retired for oil pump problem after 5 laps

Thanks for the information.



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Welsh Motor Sport History

[Hugo Boecker]

Hans Finke raced this this car on several occasions in 1955 mainly in the 1500cc class

08.05.1955 Finke	 Hockenheim				1500	   Kieft

15.05.1955 Finke	 Dessau					1500  # 53 Kieft				  

29.05.1955 Finke	 Eifelrennen			   1500  # 30 Kieft				  dnf

03.07.1955 Finke	 Halle					 1500  # 53 Kieft				  Meldeliste

14.08.1955 Finke	 Sachsenring			   1500  # 36 Kieft				  6.

25.09.1955 Finke	 AVUS Rennen			   1500  # 21 Kieft				  

16.10.1955 Finke	 Targa Florio			  1100  # 56 Kieft				  dnf

											 (codriver Fritz Kornekauer)

29.04.1956 Finke	 Bäderpreis Traiskirchen			  Kieft

Has anyone more informations on Finke or his races with the Kieft?

[uechtel]

At least it doesn´t look like Trouis and Finke using the same car.

[r.atlos]

It will not answer Hugo's question but I thought you would appreciate to see this photo:


- copyright by Yours faithfully -

Georges Trouis at a support race to the German GP on 01/08/1954.

[Hugo Boecker]

Thanks a lot r.atlos.
I think Finke's Eifelrennen car is much more similar to the Rippon one. While Rippon has the same holes on the side and same grille than Finke Trouis car had a sidepannel without any holes. It differs from the hood.Rippons is blank while Finke has the same two louvers than Trouis. Trouis car had an MG engine- Rippons a Climax as well as Finke's. As far I know Trouis was some sort of Kieft-agent. Maybe Finke purchased the car from him.
I don't know how much of the 1100-Climax car were built but think only a few.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
I don't know how much of the 1100-Climax car were built but think only a few.

See Post 10

[uechtel]

Hugo, main difference between Trouis´ car and the others is the driver´s position. So while Finke´s and Rippon´s car may differ in detail they are a comletely different model than the car of Trouis.

let´s get back to the original question again. If you remember we had this problem that for Hockenheim 1955 we have information of Trouis entry with No. 2 on the car, but no info, whether he had indeed started, and we have Finke in the result list, but no entry for him. So we concluded, that Trouis might have sold/borrowed his car plus entry to Trouis. If so this can clearly not have been his (Troúis´) 1954 car (as this was of different type than Finke´s) but we would have to assume, that Trouis had brought a new car to Germany, maybe already with the intention to sell it at instance. Other possibilities would be, that Trouis borrowed his 1954 to Finke, but then sold him another car. Or perhaps both did start, Trouis and Finke, each in his own car. Or finally, our information is wrong and Finke did not start at all, but only Trouis.

So what have to do is to identify the car on the Hockenheim grid. It´s the No. 2 car in the middle of the last row in this picture:



and it is also visible in the background here



To me this looks much more like Trouis´ central seater than Finke´s right-hand-drive car. If so then we have to exclude the possibility, that Trouis brought the new car to Hockenheim and handed it to Finke, instead only one of the last three possibilities can be the case.

Does anybody perhaps spot a further Kieft on one of these pictures?

[uechtel]

Another fact that in my eyes speaks against the theory, that Trouis sold his car to Finke, is, that both placed entries again for the EIfelrennen.

[qualibre]

thanks to r.atlos for his very nice photo about the Trouis car.

thanks to uechtel for his 2 photos about the 1955 Hockenheim grid !

on this photo you can see the car #2 : the Georges Trouis 1953 Kieft-MG central seater,

but you can see also the Finke car, the Kieft-Climax sport car (fiberglass 2 seats body) with #1,
near the Porsche #14 (Josef Jeser) which finished 3rd
behind the Porsche #12 (Ernst Lautenschlager) which finished 2d.

i have 3 questions :

- who have informations or photos about the Georges Trouis Kieft-MG central seater (#48) of Le Mans 1954 (DNF) ?

- who have informations or photos about the Kieft-MG central seater of 24h grand de paris " bol d'or " at montlhery 15-5-1955 (accident) ? a Kieft-Turner #49 also raced driven by Baxter (DNF).

- to Hugo Boecker how do you : " As far I know Trouis was some sort of Kieft-agent " ?

[johnwilliamdavies]

According to Cyril Kieft and his Racing Cars 1949-1955 by Des Hammill & Brian V. M. Jenkins, the fifth car made (LDA 1) was driven by Don Parker at Prescott, to test it, at the end of 1954. It was then used by Hans Finke.

The Kieft-Turner of Berwyn Baxter at Montlhery was registered as LDA 5. This number was previously used by a Kieft-Bristol central-seater. There is a photograph of it at Montlhery in the book.



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Welsh Motor Sport History

[Hugo Boecker]

Originally posted by uechtel To me this looks much more like Trouis´ central seater than Finke´s right-hand-drive car. If so then we have to exclude the possibility, that Trouis brought the new car to Hockenheim and handed it to Finke, instead only one of the last three possibilities can be the case.

Does anybody perhaps spot a further Kieft on one of these pictures? [/B]

Yes, üchtel we had aready identified the to car Trois (for sure) and Finke - so one MG engined and one with Climax. The starting number for Finke seems to be a two-digit number with 1?. But we hadn't as you said the ultimate proof.

qualibre, I think I have found (Trouis - Kieft agent) it anywere on the net maybe here, but I am not sure at all.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by qualibre
but you can see also the Finke car, the Kieft-Climax sport car (fiberglass 2 seats body) with #1,
near the Porsche #14 (Josef Jeser) which finished 3rd
behind the Porsche #12 (Ernst Lautenschlager) which finished 2d.

Hm, I am not quite convinced. Look at the way the headlights are placed on top of the fenders. This seems totally different to me like at the photo of Finke´s car.

[Alan Cox]

Mile Miglia Retro 1988 - there really is room for two people, though I would draw the line at doing 1000 miles around Italy, even on a non-competitive event like the Retro, in the passenger seat. The spare wheel rests under the right-hand door shroud.

[qualibre]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted uechtel

Hm, I am not quite convinced. Look at the way the headlights are placed on top of the fenders. This seems totally different to me like at the photo of Finke´s car.
-------------------------------------------------------

uechtel :
of course I am not sure, Dou you think that it could be a Porsche ? it's also a possibilty, it's not easy !

[Pedro 917]

From the 2002 "Fascination Cars" event in Brecht (Belgium), a 1953 Kieft (circuit category) :

[uechtel]

Originally posted by qualibre
of course I am not sure, Dou you think that it could be a Porsche ? it's also a possibilty, it's not easy ! [/B]

I think it is Höftmann´s Porsche special.

[Richard Neale]

That is not a Porsche special!
It's Keift Chassis # CK201. Driven by Berwyn Baxter it was originally fitted with a Turner engine and ran at Monthlery in Paris 24hrs, Le Mans, Goodwood 9 Hours and later the TT with an MG engine.
Owned for many years by Duncan Rabagliati and sold by him at his Brooks Auction in1998.

[David McKinney]

No-one's saying LDA5 is a Porsche special, Woody
They're arguing about another picture ;)

[uechtel]

Indeed. I am talking about this car:

[qualibre]

to Pedro 917
this car is not 1953, only the plate LDA 5 is 1953 !

- this plate was first used on a KIEFT central seater (alloy body) with Bristol engine driven by michael cristie, jim mayer and ken Wharton in 1953
- this plate was used on the Kieft 1100 conventry climax (fiberglass body)
- this plate was also used by berwyn baxter on the KIEFT Turner during the Grand prix de 24 heures Bol d'or de Paris in 1955 and Le Mans 55.

and your photo show the last KIEFT with this plate (probably in the late 55).

to Richard Neale :
- the car with the Turner engine in le mans 55 and in bol d'or 55 has the same body but the front is very different with the first LDA 5 (of course because different chassis and engine) , and also different on this photo of LDA 5,
perhaps same chassis different engine and different body ? sure is that this car is an another car of the first LDA 5 !

to Alan Cox :
LDA 6 has the same plate since 1953 and the same body, this is a Kieft-MG central Seater.
this body is the same as the first central seater (LDA 1) but has a different bonnet frome the others central seater, so it's easy to recognize !

to uechtel :
it seems very similar, where is the truth ?

kieft history is a very " hard to find " story !
who have informations about the Kieft central seater in the 24heures grand prix bol d'or 1955 at Montlhery ?

[uechtel]

Originally posted by qualibre
to uechtel :
it seems very similar, where is the truth ?

In my opinion this is what fits best. As long as we don´t have a better picture I am afraid I can not get beyond that statement.

[CK 201]

To all concerned. I am the owner of LDA5 ex Lemans 1955. As far as my information goes the Turner engine was switched after 24H race by an MGa of 15OOcc. After an certain time Baxters mechanic had a shunt with the car and the coachwork was replaced with the alu one by Williams and Pritchard with the intention of making a sort of roadcar series . A have a sales leaflet.Of the first series(central seaters=ex formula 3 chassis) 8 cars were made LDA1 up to 8. A Bristol engined car is in the possesion of M.Erlich and raced regurarly by him.Of the second series originally with fiberglass body an CC engine . A first!!!!probably no more than six cars were made I know of tree in existence. All further info will be gladly accepted. Look on the site of Le Mitiche sport a Bassano of pictures of LDA5

[David Beard]

Originally posted by CK 201
A Bristol engined car is in the possesion of M.Erlich and raced regurarly by him.

At Oulton Park, almost too enthusiastically...

[Pedro 917]

Qualibre, that's how the car was entered in the Fascination Cars event but to be honest, I don't know anything about these cars.
There was a Kieft-Bristol in the 2004 Zolder Historic GP, driven to 4th place by Michael Erlich :

[RWB]

Do we know the original registration number of Mr Erlich's car?

[qualibre]

to ck 201

to see your name, I think that your car with LDA 5 plate has the chassis number " CK 201 ".

my informations are :
that this "chassis number" was at le mans 54 with the plate NDA 172 (rippon / black)
and at le mans 55 with the same plate, same engine, same body (rippon / merrick)
this chassis was the first kieft with the coventry climax engine.

probably the engine turner was in an another kieft !

LDA 1 to LDA 8 ok (probably no LDA 4)
but it's missing
OAC 2
MJW 55
and the 3 USA cars.

very nice car the M. Erlich car !
with the interior photo I have see the left chassis tube is not the same as the LDA 6 green car in italy.

[CK 201]

Mr.Erlichs car is to my knowledge a USA car probably from Ceresole that ran Sebring 1954.The le Mans 54and55 car with CCengine is the same with small differences. The other 55 car was new build in winter 54 for B.Baxter with a Tuner engine[lea-francis} for Lemans 55 .NDA 172 and LDA5 are second series car with a complete different chassis designed with CCengine in mind. The italian car is an MG centerseater in possesion of Mr. Villa-Allegri;

[qualibre]

information
Osenat Fontainebleau auction house will be autionned on december 16th
the KIEFT central Seater MG engined of Georges Trouis. This car is still with the original engine in le mans it was a 1086cc and after 1467cc .

For this moment the race history is :

13/06/1954 24 h Le Mans #48 Georges Trouis (F) Alfred Hitchings (GB)
01/08/1954 Rheinland Nürburgring #36 Georges Trouis (F)
10/10/1954 Coupe du Salon #42 Helles Fred (F)
27/03/1955 Coupe de Vitesse #? Georges Trouis (F)
14/04/1955 Coupe de Paris #116 Helles Fred (F)
08/05/1955 Hockenheim [S1.5] #2 Georges Trouis (F)
15/05/1955 24h Grand Prix de Paris #48 Allegre (F) Barbey (F)
28/08/1955 500 km Nürburgring #18 Theo Geither (D)
??/10/1955 IN MONTLHERY - ACCIDENT - END OF THE RACE HISTORY

the rear body was modified in the late 54 or begining 55 : we can see the original Kieft Rear body on the le mans and nurburgring photos (1954) and the modified rear body on the hockenheim photo (1955) !

owner history :
1976-today / SAME OWNER - restored
1965-1976 / PRIVATE OWNER - in bad condition
1956-1965 / parked in MONTLHERY in bad condition after an accident
1954-1955 / ECURIE FRANCO BRITANNIQUE (the Trouis Team)

this is a very interesting car, with the original chassis, engine and body (only the bonnets were redone).

[brickyard]

Originally posted by qualibre
information
Osenat Fontainebleau auction house will be autionned on december 16th
the KIEFT central Seater MG engined of Georges Trouis. This car is still with the original engine in le mans it was a 1086cc and after 1467cc .

For this moment the race history is :

13/06/1954 24 h Le Mans #48 Georges Trouis (F) Alfred Hitchings (GB)
01/08/1954 Rheinland Nürburgring #36 Georges Trouis (F)
10/10/1954 Coupe du Salon #42 Helles Fred (F)
27/03/1955 Coupe de Vitesse #? Georges Trouis (F)
14/04/1955 Coupe de Paris #116 Helles Fred (F)
08/05/1955 Hockenheim [S1.5] #2 Georges Trouis (F)
15/05/1955 24h Grand Prix de Paris #48 Allegre (F) Barbey (F)
28/08/1955 500 km Nürburgring #18 Theo Geither (D)
??/10/1955 IN MONTLHERY - ACCIDENT - END OF THE RACE HISTORY

the rear body was modified in the late 54 or begining 55 : we can see the original Kieft Rear body on the le mans and nurburgring photos (1954) and the modified rear body on the hockenheim photo (1955) !

owner history :
1976-today / SAME OWNER - restored
1965-1976 / PRIVATE OWNER - in bad condition
1956-1965 / parked in MONTLHERY in bad condition after an accident
1954-1955 / ECURIE FRANCO BRITANNIQUE (the Trouis Team)

this is a very interesting car, with the original chassis, engine and body (only the bonnets were redone).

I can ad another one:

25/06/1955 III Taça Cidade do Porto #16 Barbey (F) - DNF

Regards
Luis

[cmcwilliam]

Hello - I realise this is a very old thread but I wondered whether it is possible to see the photos?  They all appear blank?

 

I own the Kieft Climax car that raced at Dundrod in 1954 and elsewhere and am very interested to see photos of Kieft at races in 1954 and 1955.

 

Many thanks,

Craig