41 replies to this topic

[BRG]

With the current row about testing, I started to wonder about this issue.

Firstly, Ferrari own their test-track Fiorano and are apparently therefore allowed to test on it whenever they want. It is not subject to the FIA limits that apply to testing at GP or other race circuits. Is that the case? Can anyone confirm or correct that?

So if owning a test-track gives all these additional testing opportunities, and if this is such a valuable resource that has helped Ferrari hone their dominant cars, why don’t any of the other teams do the same? To my knowledge, only McLaren have ever made any serious attempt to secure a track, buying the small Lydden Hill circuit in Kent (UK) some years back. At the time, I believe that they planned to move their whole factory there but were stymied by the local planning authorities. They still own the track but don’t seem to use it for testing AFAIK. Otherwise, I cannot recall any team trying to get their own track.

Yet surely several of them already have access to tracks. The late Jaguar team , as a Ford company, could have used Boreham – the traditional home of Ford UK’s motor sport arm and a one time race track., although, like Jaguar, Boreham itself was recently closed by Ford. Companies like Mercedes, Renault and BMW must have lavish test facilities – why don’t their respective race teams ever use these? It would be a lot harder for Toyota and BAR-Honda, but if they were prepared to schlepp all the way between Europe to Japan, the same would apply to them. So really, only Minardi, Jordan and Sauber don’t have the possibility of using a dedicated test facility if they really wanted to.

So why haven’t these other teams taken advantage of this? Or have I missed something fundamental?

[karlth]

Weather? Ferrari just push the car onto their test track in nearly guaranteed good weather.

It is probably a bit more difficult in the middle of england. Not worth building a circuit with the 30% chance of being able to do some practical testing.

[BRG]

Maybe, but I think the weather can be pretty bad in northern Italy in the winter too. And contrary to reports, it doesn't rain every day in Britain. It just seems like it.

[Viktor]

Originally posted by BRG
Firstly, Ferrari own their test-track Fiorano and are apparently therefore allowed to test on it whenever they want. It is not subject to the FIA limits that apply to testing at GP or other race circuits. Is that the case? Can anyone confirm or correct that?

No, that is NOT correct, same FIA limits are on all the team where ever thay test.

/Viktor

[Double Apex]

AFAIK Toyota have a somewhat permanent base on Paul Ricard, so you could consider that to be their own test track, although the use of it of course isn't exclusive to them.

Also, I think Bira pointed out a while ago that 75% of Ferrari's in-season testing was not done on Fiorano, so Fiorano may not be that big a deal to them.

[scarbs]

Ferrari havign a test track goes back t whenthe old man (enzo) was running the show. the track was as much a part of the road cars as they are all (IIRC) tested on there prior to delivery. Ferrari have to adhere to the test milage limitations as anyone at a public track. The week before races mileage is limited as it is in the wintersummer test bans. Contrary to popular beleif Ferrari do not have a car pounding around fiorano everyday of the week, indeed its not always used for "long run" tests. the benefit they have is that they can quickly truck the car over from the factory and run it for a shake down and in relative secret.

McLaren bought British track in the eighties, Lyden Hill (?) but never developed it into a private test track. other teams use local straightline faciltiies and tracks (e.g. Jordan at Silverstone) but never publicise the test.

Weather in Italy isnt nearly always lovely, winters can be very cold and wet (snow.!).

[Mickey]

Originally posted by scarbs
Weather in Italy isnt nearly always lovely, winters can be very cold and wet (snow.!).

Indeed, and especially in the Pianura Padana, the plains where Maranello lies. You can pretty much expect it to be foggy every other day for about six months of the year.

Ferrari also own Mugello, which is a few kilometers south in Tuscany. Mugello doesn't lie in the plains but in the Appennini mountains, where it often rains and it also snows a few times every winter.

Ferrari recently tested at Vallelunga, near Rome, for the first time in 25 years or so. The weather there is better and milder, so I expect to see them there more often during the winter.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Viktor
same FIA limits are on all the team where ever they test.

OK, if that is the case, why do Ferrari use Fiorano so much? I imagine it has some extra telemetery gear, and it is cheaper being so close to home (no plane fares, hotel bills etc) but it is a bit Mickey Mouse, even by Tilke standards and it isn't a current GP track. What is the advantage from using it rather than Barcelona, Valencia, Ricard etc?

[ensign14]

They have difficulty enough getting planning permission to run the Festival of Speed, imagine trying to do the same for a permanent test track in Didcot or somewhere.

I guess in Italy they don't bother about things like that.

Maybe the mountain should go to Mohammed. Someone ought to move to Boreham.

[Frank Tuesday]

Originally posted by BRG
OK, if that is the case, why do Ferrari use Fiorano so much? I imagine it has some extra telemetery gear, and it is cheaper being so close to home (no plane fares, hotel bills etc) but it is a bit Mickey Mouse, even by Tilke standards and it isn't a current GP track. What is the advantage from using it rather than Barcelona, Valencia, Ricard etc?

1. They have tons of data for the track.
2. It is close to home and easy to use.
3. They own it, so they don't have to rent it.
4. It was designed as a test track, so it has a wide variety of turns.

Frank

[HP]

Originally posted by Frank Tuesday

3. They own it, so they don't have to rent it.

But they have to maintain it.

[madmac]

Its a combination of factors IMHO. First off like others say the proximity makes it economically advantageous. Second Ferrari know the place so well, they must understand how temperature, wind, moisture & all that stuff will affect the car so well that Fiorano must be almost as predictable as a wind tunnel. The fact that Ferrari has complete control over the track means also that they will know exactly what sort of rubber has been used on the surface & when, dunno if this is a factor but I'm just trying illustrate just how valuable having your own track next door really must be.

[HP]

To the question in the thread title. I think there are historical reasons. Ferrari in modern F1 was for a long time the only team and manufacturer to build the entire car .

Until Todt did run the team, Ferrari didn't make the most out of their resources. Now they do and only now other teams take full notice of the resources at their disposal.

[Viktor]

Also have in mind that Fiorano is not only a F1 test track for Ferrari but its there test track for the production cars also, just like BMW, Ford, Toyota and Mercedes all have there own test tracks for there production cars.

/Viktor

[Monstrobolaxa]

Well I think the question was more....do any other F1 teams own a test track....not exactly which tracks can we consider as the home tracks of each team!

[lukywill]

weather is certainly a very good spot on.

i think mclaren, williams or bar should come to portugal and buy estoril. the ultimate fiorano eater.

[rce]

Well I remember reading an interview with Frank Williams and the only reason Williams does not have a test track outside their Grove door is because of the local government - they can't get permits to build one and until the government allows for it to be built - it ain't happening. Unfortunate.

[F1Champion]

Originally posted by Mickey

Indeed, and especially in the Pianura Padana, the plains where Maranello lies. You can pretty much expect it to be foggy every other day for about six months of the year.

Ferrari also own Mugello, which is a few kilometers south in Tuscany. Mugello doesn't lie in the plains but in the Appennini mountains, where it often rains and it also snows a few times every winter.

Ferrari recently tested at Vallelunga, near Rome, for the first time in 25 years or so. The weather there is better and milder, so I expect to see them there more often during the winter.

That's pretty much spot on. The final tests that Ferrari conducted for this season were at this new test track at Vallelunga. I believe in their press release it said that they tested there to evaluate whether it could be a regular testing venue.

[SpamJet]

Didnt Mercedes buy Brooklands recently? Im not sure if they intended to use it as a test track but there is that possibility.

[eoin]

Originally posted by Viktor
Also have in mind that Fiorano is not only a F1 test track for Ferrari but its there test track for the production cars also, just like BMW, Ford, Toyota and Mercedes all have there own test tracks for there production cars.

/Viktor

what he said.

[tifosi4life]

I have been to this track, worth a trip if you can. As already posted, this track is perfect for shake downs and start testing due to its close proximity to the factory. Very handy during the Monaco GP in the past yearsAlso this track has many configurations to test specific corners of the current tracks on the calendar. I don't think this has been mentioned, but they also have an irrigation system to flood the track for wet weather testing. Got to hand it to the old man for planing for the future. Maybe others should not have spent so much time worrying on with types of fixtures to use in the toilet.

Edit: Here are some of their tracks.

Fiorano

Mugello

[ensign14]

Originally posted by SpamJet
Didnt Mercedes buy Brooklands recently? Im not sure if they intended to use it as a test track but there is that possibility.

They'd have to knock a few buildings down first.

[BRG]

Originally posted by SpamJet
Didnt Mercedes buy Brooklands recently? Im not sure if they intended to use it as a test track but there is that possibility.

Yes, and work is now underway to build a Mercedes technical and slaes centre and test-track. But AFAIK the track will only be for roadcars - for potential buyers to try them out and so on. There is less than zero chance of a track there being used for testing unsilenced (or even slightly silenced) single seaters - it borders on some of the most expensive housing in the UK (the St George's Hill estate) and the residents would descend on Mercedes, the council, the government and anyone passing by like a ton of extremely wealthy bricks if there was racing car noise.

But what I was really wondering is why other manufacturers haven't used the massinve and expensively equipped test facilities that are already available to them? I would imagine that Mercedes main test track in Stuttgart (or whereever it is) probably makes Fiorano look like a kart track. So why haven't they used it for F1 car shakedowns and first tests? Surely with all the dedicated telemetry, CCTV etc, it would be better for that than a pure race track like Barcelona?

[joriswouters]

The Scuderia has to respect all the FIA regulations concerning testing. And therefor in the week prior to a GP they don't test the F1cars. But they almost constantly run cars on the track: road cars being tested, GT racecars being tested, such as the new Maserati...
The circuit is almost constantly active.

[scarbs]

There is a milage limit in the week preceding a GP, not a complete ban. Ferrari often shake down cars at fiorano in the week before a race, as do Williams, McLaren and Jordan at silverstone.

[joriswouters]

Originally posted by scarbs
There is a milage limit in the week preceding a GP, not a complete ban. Ferrari often shake down cars at fiorano in the week before a race, as do Williams, McLaren and Jordan at silverstone.

Indeed, I forgot to mention it. They can do 50km. as a last test of all systems in the week prior to the GP. But aside the shakedown there is a complete tracktestban.

[The Stig]

Isn't Suzuka owned by Honda? Heard something like that, but dunno whether it's true or not.

[joriswouters]

Originally posted by The Stig
Isn't Suzuka owned by Honda? Heard something like that, but dunno whether it's true or not.

It used to be the test track of Honda. The Honda training school is still there I believe. But I've heard the track was sold.

[SB]

Originally posted by The Stig
Isn't Suzuka owned by Honda? Heard something like that, but dunno whether it's true or not.

Yes Suzuka is owned by Honda. And during the McLaren-Honda days, McLaren has a separate test team which stayed in Suzuka specially for the engine developments. (and I remember McNish was one of their driver in the "Japan test team")

[ivanalesi]

I think that Honda owns one more track, the one that MotoGP goes?

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by HP
But they have to maintain it.

Yep resurface it every 5 years i think which costs around $500,000 i think? The last time they resurfaced it was in 2002 and MS has problems adjusting to the track surface so they improved the car to such an extent that it found an extra 2 seconds over the F2001 Ferrari despite the track giving up 1.5 seconds. I think this is where Ferrari excels over the other teams, having already brilliant handling cars, the track allows the team to further tweak the aerodynamics, tyres etc etc in a bid to shave off valuable 1/10ths here and there - all of which contribute to the consistent gap between Ferrari and Mclaren/Williams and the like PLUS Ferrari have the luxury of the track being next door to them near Maranello so it makes for convenience to test practically every day if they wanted to, something which the other teams do not have the luxury of doing so.

[MuMu]

The other teams simply cannot afford it. :

[Dragonfly]

Toyota recently bought the "Fuji" track which was discussed from POV of having two Japanese GP.

[Pilla]

I think Jordan has an agreement with Silverstone.

[Bluesmoke]

Originally posted by BRG
And contrary to reports, it doesn't rain every day in Britain. It just seems like it.

What a horrible place to live.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by SpamJet
Didnt Mercedes buy Brooklands recently? Im not sure if they intended to use it as a test track but there is that possibility.

Well at least Kimi would have plenty of places to go shopping.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by Bluesmoke


What a horrible place to live.

It's not all that bad - you don't live there for a start.

[TIPO61]

If you've ever been to Maranello and seen the proximity of Fiorano to the factory, you would understand the simplicity of it all.
It's also very 'head-y' air to breath.
Do make the trip/pilgrimage if you can.
You'll NEVER forget it.

[tripleM]

I asked a similar question re: Ferrari's usage of their track awhile back.

From What I recall from that thread it seems ppl were inferring that Williams & Mac actually do have testing tracks of their own? Is that true?

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=71268

[BRG]

Originally posted by tripleM
Williams & Mac actually do have testing tracks of their own? Is that true?

Thak you for posting that link which contained some interesting stuff (plus a load of horse-**** as usual!).

Williams and McLaren (or any other team AFAIK) don't have access to a dedicated test-track that they control, in the way that Ferrari do with Fiorano. But my original point was that many of the teams do potentially have some access to a private test facility through their manufacturer partners. And I wonder why, if Fiorano was deemed to be so beneficial to Ferrari, they others didn't take advantage of these facillities. But after some of the comments here, I wonder if Fiorano is really such an important element for Ferrari after all. Maybe it has become sort of iconic. In the end it is the number of hours of testing that matters and as long as that is kept equal (and in check) then maybe the venue is not so inportant.

[Viktor]

I dont know much about car testing fecilitis but my guess is that normal car makers (BMW, Mercedes, Honda etc) dont have race tracks as there testing fecilitis but fecilitis that more simulate the conditions that there cars will face out on the streets, hills, bumps etc etc, not racing on a track and that my not sute a F1 car. I know that when Wirdheim testen in Belgium at a Ford fecility it was only straight line testing.

/Viktor

[The Stig]

Originally posted by Viktor
I dont know much about car testing fecilitis but my guess is that normal car makers (BMW, Mercedes, Honda etc) dont have race tracks as there testing fecilitis but fecilitis that more simulate the conditions that there cars will face out on the streets, hills, bumps etc etc, not racing on a track and that my not sute a F1 car. I know that when Wirdheim testen in Belgium at a Ford fecility it was only straight line testing.

/Viktor

No offense intended, but you make it look more like a VD than you might want to.