13 replies to this topic

[BADGER]

Two people that come to mind very quickly are Derick Warrick and Teo Fabi. Unfortunately for Derick, he joined Reneault just as the ship was starting to sink. I think he had loads of talent, but he never seemed to end up in a good enough car.

Teo Fabi was a teamate to Berger and was often able to out qualify him. In fact, Teo was able to put a Toleman Hart(down about 150hp) on the pole at the Osteriechring. That track was awesome at the time with very fast corners and huge changes in elevation. Unfortunately, it is a mere shadow of what it once was. I look forward to seeing some of the other replys.
[p][Edited by BADGER on 07-27-2000]

[MacFan]

Most people in the Nostalgia Forum would say Chris Amon was the best driver never to win in WC history. In the modern era of F1, I think Martin Brundle stands out as one who should have won but didn't - he was the equal of Senna in F3, and went better against Schumacher in the same team than anybody else has since.

Stefan Bellof, although his F1 career was cut short by his tragic sports car crash at Spa, also looked like becoming one of the greats - in the wet race at Monaco in 1984, when much was made of the fact that the rookie Senna was closing rapidly on Prost in the lead at the end, Bellof was fast catching both of them, and may well have won if the race had gone its full distance.

[Zoe]

Difficult. Are you asking for drivers who have already ended their career? Otherwise you could name drivers like Gene, Ralfie, Button or whomever.

Assuming the first, one candidate coming to mind would be Stefan Bellof, who unfortunately died way too early (I am stil a big fan of his).

From the rest of the bunch (without thinking too long, my memory is getting bad with age) my pick would be amongst those drivers who did not stay around too long (not like e.g. Cheever or Warwick (definitely NOT Warwick)), how about Martini, or Tarquini (who was awesome in tin tops later on). Both haven't had the machinery to show off, but compared what cars they had they were pretty impressive. Of course this selection is aimed to the late 80ies and early 90ies, but that was the time my interest in F1 was at its peak.

Zoe

[John B]

Amon was the first thought which came to my mind when thinking of the 'best' never to win. Among driver's I've seen, I think Pierluigi Martini would have been very good in a top car - he had some great runs for Minardi including leading one lap in 1989. I second Warwick and Bellof nominations. It's easy to forget that Senna was not the first driver to run a Toleman in the top 3 in the rain at Monaco.

[jimm]

bellof-in recent times


MacFan- Brundle was definatly good but not on the same level of Senna even in F3. Brundle had the best car/engine combo offered that year where Senna didn't. But your point is well taken that he should have won at least a couple in '92 alone (Canada and if he changed tires at the right time he could have won SPA)

[RedFever]

Amon
Bellof
DeCesaris
Pierluigi Martini

[bs]

Amon

[Pacific]

I certainly want to take my hat off to Pierluigi Martini for his great work with the Minardi team over the years.

Of the older current drivers who don't look likely to win one, Mika Salo stands out as a very good driver. Mika WOULD have won Hockenheim last year, but...

Gianni Morbidelli wasn't too bad either. There was some F1 Top 100 drivers list and Morbidelli made that list. I think Morbidelli did a pretty good job when he raced for Minardi and Arrows. His time with Sauber was troubled of course. He wasn't awesome, but Morbidelli was pretty good.

Gabrielle Tarquini was pretty good in the end. He put in some great times with lesser teams throughout his career. Like Fondmetal in the early 90's.

There are many drivers like this that dot F1 history, I imagine Roberto Moreno is one like that. Drivers who just didn't get that ride to really break open their career like Hakkinen got in 1993 when McLaren lost faith in Michael Andretti.

Some drivers go to good teams when they're on decline. Like Alessandro Zanardi for instance. While Zanardi was never awesome, he did a good job in the Lotus when he raced it. Herbert had some preference with the team having been there since 1991. I still think Herbert had more natural talent than Zanardi, but you don't go and light up CART by having no skill. His previous stint in F1, while not overly distinguished, was not a disgrace.

Any F1 driver who can race in the series for more than a few years has some real skill in the big picture of things. Guys like Ukyo Katayama, while some make fun of him here, are really world class drivers.

I'm going to give David Brabham a mention too. His time with Simtek didn't give much in results, but David put in a good effort and pretty much took care of his teammates time in and time out if I recall properly.

[Nasty McBastard]

DeCesaris? Lolol...lol some more

amon is surely the all time F1 coulda/shoulda story...

of the guys ive seen..

warwick.

canada 89 was painfull.. the guy was finaly getting his break, leading in the wet and it all went south. ill never forget the body language of the guy when he got out of his car. i read in a magazine years later ( i think it was the old "prix editions") that he was about ti start laying the boot into the car but realised hed look pretty ****ed kicking a car on international TV.

also remember his drive at hungary, (88 or 89 i think) in the old USF&G arrows...he had conjuntivitis or something equally as wierd and basically drove the last 10 laps from memory, as opposed to seeig where he was going and still finished 7th

[RedFever]

McBastard, of course you never saw deCesaris race live and laugh out of your ignorance. It's easy to comment on his accidents but the reality is that he less crashes than Verstappen or Coulthard, just more spectacular (like in Austria when he like Moore hit an uneven grass bank and the car flew in the air. Nowadays it would have been an innocent spin). Andrea was amazing, only one guy was able to outbreak Andrea at the old Tosa were they arrived at 190mph with metal brakes: Gilles Villeneuve. The rest of them, including many drivers you idolize, like Piquet or Lauda were never able to push the limit like Andrea. Of course they raced better cars then Andrea, who only once had a great car and left them all in the dust, until his engine blew up. Andrea was extremely talented, not the smartest guy around, he would take his risks, but if he had a mildly competitive car, he would have won several times.

[Vercertorix]

I think this has been debated into the ground over the years by F1, R & T, Motorsport, et al; and the pretty clear consensus for the last thirty years has been Chris Amon.

That said, you make a pretty good point, Pacific: none of these people are actually clowns. Just driving in a straight line at speeds in excess of 250 kph when you're on a flat empty road all by yourself is difficult enough. To do it at higher speeds than that, while cornering, in the heat of competition, all the while looking for an edge over the guy in front of or behind you, in a machine that can add (or subtract) 100 kph from its speed in an eyeblink, well - try it.

NONE of them are clowns.

And the way F1 has evolved, with for the most part only two cars at a time realistically capable of winning (Williams or Benetton, Williams or McLaren, McLaren or Ferrari)unless a fluke gives an outsider a shot, there will increasingly be drivers whose talent is not rewarded, because he never gets one of the four competitive seats. It depends hugely on the car. It may be that Chris Amon was just the first and most prominent to go from an uncompetitive situation at Ferrari to an even worse situation at March - but it seems certain he won't be the last. There are plenty of guys who are better drivers than their cars.

[Nasty McBastard]

wouldnt be the race where he actually scored a pole position but drove the warmup lap so fast he was left sitting on the grid cooking his enigine for ages while everyone else was doing their thing would it?

[NYR2119935]

Michael Andretti !!!!!!!

[Fast One]

I think the question that has to be asked is of the drivers who never won a race, was there any who was considered every bit as good as the drivers winning the championship. Because if there were any, those are the ones to choose among. And of all the drivers mentioned, most were regarded as very good, but only one was regarded as the equal of the best drivers he raced against, and that was Chris Amon. Sure it was harder to win races then. there were fewer events and the cars wer much less reliable, but Amon had some unbelievable bad luck. One race (Spain?) he was light years ahead of everybody when a ten cent part broke on his Ferrari. Chris shouldn't have just won a race. He had the talent to be a multiple world champion. He just had the worst luck I have ever seen, short of dying.

Brundle was good, de Cesaris was brave, etc., etc., but Amon was a complete driver, better in every way than any of the other names mentioned. He is Grand Prix racing's ultimate hard luck story.